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View Full Version : [3.5] Permanent Image: Wizard's Phone?



Jack_Simth
2009-12-28, 09:02 PM
I was looking at Permanent Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanentImage.htm), and had a thought:

A pair of them make a great telephone between two wizards.

Method:

Wizard A puts a Permanent Image in Wizard B's lair.
Wizard B puts a Permanent Image in Wizard A's lair.

Wizard A concentrates on his permanent image, to make it look and sound like whatever he wants, while looking at Wizard B's Permanent Image
Wizard B concentrates on his Permanent Image, to make it look and sound like whatever he wants, while looking at Wizard A's Permanent Image.

Wizard A just happens to want his permanent image to be an image of himself saying something, in response to what Wizard B's Permanent Image says.
Wizard B just happens to want his permanent image to be an image of himself saying something, in response to what Wizard A's Permanent Image says.

The two of them hold a conversation this way.

Each maintains their privacy (the other guy only sees/hears what each wants to project).
There's no save involved that matters (they both know quite well it's an illusion).

Now, granted, it's a somewhat inconvenient phone - you need to visit the spot you'll wish to call, and you pretty much need to be able to cast the spell yourself - but is there anything in the RAW preventing it from working?

Edit:
Ah, you can get it down to one Wizard doing this, if said Wizard also has a Third Eye Sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#sense) to see his image's area, but he still has to have visited the spot and cast his spell there ... although it would be outbound calling only. Hmm.

taltamir
2009-12-28, 09:03 PM
any sufficiently analyzed/advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.

As long as "magic A equals magic A", which in the DnD world it does, then you can scientifically approach it, and create magitek.

Very neat that you found this specific application...

mr.fizzypop
2009-12-28, 09:06 PM
If your that high enough level, why don't you just keep casting message? You'd definitely have enough uses.

jokey665
2009-12-28, 09:10 PM
If your that high enough level, why don't you just keep casting message? You'd definitely have enough uses.

Because this is a holophone instead of just a boring old telephone.

Tavar
2009-12-28, 09:13 PM
If your that high enough level, why don't you just keep casting message? You'd definitely have enough uses.

Because you can do this once per person you want to talk to, and then use those slots for something else. Using Message you would have to prepare it then use up many, many slots for each conversations. Plus, you can also do conference calls with this method.

taltamir
2009-12-28, 09:16 PM
you could operate a video phone... from across continents. only nobles could afford it, but it would be good money, not use up spell slots, and allow instant and unlimited communication to anywhere in the world.

Magnor Criol
2009-12-29, 01:42 AM
The only question is do the rules really support that you can change the permanent image at any range? It merely says you can concentrate to change it; they say nothing about whether you have to be in the spell's range, LoS, or LoE to do so. Before this thread made me think about it I'd have just assumed that such restrictions existed.

I suppose that boils down to the age-old "The rules don't say you can't / the rules don't say you can" question.

Slayn82
2009-12-29, 06:54 AM
Good one. Can i link this to my "Magic as Technology" Thread?

Also, another idea about this spell, this time with information storage and processing.
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7510062&postcount=85)

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-29, 07:21 AM
The only question is do the rules really support that you can change the permanent image at any range? It merely says you can concentrate to change it; they say nothing about whether you have to be in the spell's range, LoS, or LoE to do so. Before this thread made me think about it I'd have just assumed that such restrictions existed.

I suppose that boils down to the age-old "The rules don't say you can't / the rules don't say you can" question.

Range is a factor at time of casting. If you summon a monster, and it runs outside of the spell range, it's fine.

Unless a spell explicitly states a range limitation after casting, it doesn't generally apply. Several spells specify that something created by the spell must remain within a certain distance (I believe several of the magic blade spells fall in this category). This implies that, without that limiting text, such a range would not apply.

Jack_Simth
2009-12-29, 07:38 AM
you could operate a video phone... from across continents. only nobles could afford it, but it would be good money, not use up spell slots, and allow instant and unlimited communication to anywhere in the world.

Not quite anywhere in the world, even if it works as postulated - only places where you've got proper pairings by wizards of 11th or higher.

See, Permanent Image is stationary once cast (although the figment can move within the spell's defined area), so that means the Wizard who's going to be using this to send information to a given location needs to have actually been nearby, and has to have cast this spell when he was nearby. And the information from any one casting is one-way ... so if I've got twenty wizards that each want to set up a "phone shop" so to speak, each wizard has to visit every other wizard's shop, and cast their spell. So each Wizard needs 19 castings in vastly separated locations. Any new shop requires that all existing shops have their wizard visit him for a casting, and that the new guy visit every existing shop for a casting.

It's suitable for two court wizards to set up for negotiations between two warring countries, it's suitable for private use between two wizards that plan to talk to each other a lot, it's suitable as a PA system ... but not as a mass-use phone.


If your that high enough level, why don't you just keep casting message? You'd definitely have enough uses.

Couple of reasons.

1) Message has limited range... unless you're using it through Greater Scrying.
2) If you are using Message through Greater Scrying, your target critter has to fail a Will save... and the other guy might not trust you quite that much (although you can use a skeleton mouse in a cage, and order it to fail all of it's saves, then use that as a scrying target).
3) You'll eventually run out of castings of Message if you're going to be sitting there for a six hour conference, as they have a short duration. This is permanent once set up (and costs no XP, unlike a Permanent Telepathic Bond).

Because this is a holophone instead of just a boring old telephone.
That too.


Because you can do this once per person you want to talk to, and then use those slots for something else. Using Message you would have to prepare it then use up many, many slots for each conversations. Plus, you can also do conference calls with this method.
Sorta. The X people next to Wizard A can see what Wizard B wants to project, and the Y people next to Wizard B can see what Wizard A wants to project... however, as it requires Concentration to change/move the image, Wizard A can only update one of his images at a time, and likewise Wizard B can only update one of his images at a time - so you can really only get two locations in on the call, and one of the Wizards involved needs to be at each of the two locations.

Good one. Can i link this to my "Magic as Technology" Thread?

Also, another idea about this spell, this time with information storage and processing.
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7510062&postcount=85)
I've no objection.

Edit:
Ah, you can get it down to one Wizard doing this, if said Wizard also has a Third Eye Sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#sense) to see his image's area, but he still has to have visited the spot and cast his spell there ... although it would be outbound calling only. Hmm.

taltamir
2009-12-29, 01:54 PM
an 11th level wizard has no problem getting anywhere in the world, unless it was stupid enough to ban conjuration and cannot teleport.

Tavar
2009-12-29, 01:59 PM
You could also make a wounderous item that could cast the spell 1/day or something. Then you don't need to have wizards at each point

Zom B
2009-12-29, 02:08 PM
Sorta. The X people next to Wizard A can see what Wizard B wants to project, and the Y people next to Wizard B can see what Wizard A wants to project... however, as it requires Concentration to change/move the image, Wizard A can only update one of his images at a time, and likewise Wizard B can only update one of his images at a time - so you can really only get two locations in on the call, and one of the Wizards involved needs to be at each of the two locations.

You just have one large image that you concentrate on. Under normal one-on-one conversation circumstances, you choose for most of it to be transparent. At 20' cube + 10' cube per level, a 12th-level wizard can create a perfect 40' x 40' square area where the middle 20' are 20' high and the surrouding 10' cubes reach 10' high. So if he needs to move multiple parts of the image, that's just one concentration.


You could also make a wounderous item that could cast the spell 1/day or something. Then you don't need to have wizards at each point

You have to have been to the spot you want to place the image. Plus, it being permanent, there's no point in having a daily usage.

mostlyharmful
2009-12-29, 02:11 PM
You have to have been to the spot you want to place the image. Plus, it being permanent, there's no point in having a daily usage.

depends how lenient your dm is on what counts as a location, does a wall count? Even if it's moved afterwards? What about a really big picture? The inside of a wagon? etc....

And I think the daily usage was so you could set up a whole big network of these without paying for more than one magical doohickey

Lysander
2009-12-29, 02:11 PM
Range is a factor at time of casting. If you summon a monster, and it runs outside of the spell range, it's fine.

Unless a spell explicitly states a range limitation after casting, it doesn't generally apply. Several spells specify that something created by the spell must remain within a certain distance (I believe several of the magic blade spells fall in this category). This implies that, without that limiting text, such a range would not apply.

But how can you concentrate on something you can't see? Besides there's one good reason why you can't alter it at any range:


This spell functions like silent image

Can you alter silent image from greater than the spell's range? Nope. There's also this LoE rule:


You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect.


The question here is whether animating a pre-existing illusion counts as an effect, or if only the initial creation counts as an effect. I'd say that since you're doing something, it's an effect.

taltamir
2009-12-29, 02:14 PM
what about using a crystal ball to get a line of effect to an image you previously cast?

as for the 1/day... make it 1/week, as well as an item of teleport.

Slayn82
2009-12-29, 02:18 PM
But how can you concentrate on something you can't see?

Well, Dominate Person comes to mind as an example. The target can be anyplace in the same plane. If you concentrate, you can reach him. So, this point is moot, as there is precedents.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-29, 02:18 PM
If you want a cellular phone, mount a ring gate on the wall facing the permanent image, and keep the other with you.

Studoku
2009-12-29, 02:20 PM
what about using a crystal ball to get a line of effect to an image you previously cast?

as for the 1/day... make it 1/week, as well as an item of teleport.

What about just using the crystal balls as video phones in the first place?

taltamir
2009-12-29, 02:23 PM
What about just using the crystal balls as video phones in the first place?

well, the operator gets to see... person being viewed doesn't, and other people around each don't.

you need to operators, one on each side of the conversation. Each one needs a permanent image placed on the other side, and a scrying ball...

Basically you can set up an expensive conference room from point A to point B... expensive and rare... but it would work and allow direct communication between various important locales in a kingdom / between kingdoms.

EDIT: ignore what I said above...
Yes, scrying balls will work, and will work better... it wont be conference holophone... but it will be a video phone. And as a bonus, you can communicate with anyone anywhere. For two way call, both sides need a scrying ball. But there is a bonus that having a scrying ball allows you to also scry on people, not just place calls.

crystal balls allow scry at will, for 42k gp... we need a uses/day item (at much lower cost naturally)...

Lysander
2009-12-29, 02:41 PM
Well, Dominate Person comes to mind as an example. The target can be anyplace in the same plane. If you concentrate, you can reach him. So, this point is moot, as there is precedents.

Dominate Person isn't really a good example though because it specifically describes creating a mental link. There's no link between a caster and the illusion.

The answer to the question is this. Can you maintain concentration on a temporary spell like Silent Image from beyond the spell's range after its been cast? If so the same should apply to its bigger brother.

Ravens_cry
2009-12-29, 02:44 PM
an 11th level wizard has no problem getting anywhere in the world, unless it was stupid enough to ban conjuration and cannot teleport.
If no one took the 'bad' schools, they wouldn't exist, because no one had studied them and invented the spells contained within.
Besides, why put yourself in danger by teleporting somewhere?

mostlyharmful
2009-12-29, 02:49 PM
If no one took the 'bad' schools, they wouldn't exist, because no one had studied them and invented the spells contained within.
Besides, why put yourself in danger by teleporting somewhere?

you can take one of the 'bad' schools without getting rid of the single most powerful and versitile school though.

You teleport places because it's faster and easier than walking or even flying everywhere, more people are killed by cars than by walking into stuff yet people still climb into big metal fast things.

Tar Palantir
2009-12-29, 02:53 PM
If no one took the 'bad' schools, they wouldn't exist, because no one had studied them and invented the spells contained within.
Besides, why put yourself in danger by teleporting somewhere?

Because you can get out of danger by teleporting back :smallwink:.

taltamir
2009-12-29, 03:20 PM
If no one took the 'bad' schools, they wouldn't exist, because no one had studied them and invented the spells contained within.
Besides, why put yourself in danger by teleporting somewhere?

not took a bad school... banned the single most important school. (with transmutation being the second most important).

Taking evocation is fine (well, it isn't, but it is not as bad)... banning the school with teleport or flight isn't

Also, the stipulation that they "wouldn't exist" is wrong. Even if there was a hypothetical situation where there is not a single person in the multiverse who specializes in evocation, the school would still exist AND be used by generalist wizards and by specialists who did not ban it.

deuxhero
2009-12-29, 03:51 PM
And sorcs/warmages who can't bar it.

Jack_Simth
2009-12-29, 05:24 PM
You just have one large image that you concentrate on. Under normal one-on-one conversation circumstances, you choose for most of it to be transparent. At 20' cube + 10' cube per level, a 12th-level wizard can create a perfect 40' x 40' square area where the middle 20' are 20' high and the surrouding 10' cubes reach 10' high. So if he needs to move multiple parts of the image, that's just one concentration.

Yes and no.

He's manipulating one 40x40 area, sure. But he's manipulating one 40x40 area. So he can set up a ten on ten conversation with his own ten people and ten people near each other a thousand miles to the north, but if he needs to set up what I'd normally call a conference call (three parties, none of whom are in easy reach of each other) then he can't (as he'd need to concentrate twice ... but it takes a standard action to concentrate on a spell, and without a hefty amount of cheese, you only get one per round) - so he can't set up a call between three separate countries.




You have to have been to the spot you want to place the image. Plus, it being permanent, there's no point in having a daily usage.
The point of the daily usage is setting up multiple locations. If I'm Mr. Court Wizard, and I want to set up my puppet liege with the ability to conference call with each of the six neighboring kingdoms, plus three remote allies he picked up, I need nine castings for myself (one for each kingdom) as well as a way for me to see what they're doing (which either requires another nine reciprocal castings, a Third Eye Sense to view the area, or similar).


well, the operator gets to see... person being viewed doesn't, and other people around each don't.

you need to operators, one on each side of the conversation. Each one needs a permanent image placed on the other side, and a scrying ball...

Basically you can set up an expensive conference room from point A to point B... expensive and rare... but it would work and allow direct communication between various important locales in a kingdom / between kingdoms.

EDIT: ignore what I said above...
Yes, scrying balls will work, and will work better... it wont be conference holophone... but it will be a video phone. And as a bonus, you can communicate with anyone anywhere. For two way call, both sides need a scrying ball. But there is a bonus that having a scrying ball allows you to also scry on people, not just place calls.

crystal balls allow scry at will, for 42k gp... we need a uses/day item (at much lower cost naturally)...
Crystal Balls will work... but there's a few problems:
1) The guy on the other end has to fail a will save, and if he has SR, you can't really call him. Considering spells such as Demand or Nightmare exist, that's not something you want. Permanent Image doesn't have that problem, as all you're skipping is a disbelief save.
2) Crystal balls give the person looking the full situation (unless countermeasures are in place). So if I call you on my crystal ball while you're in the bath, I still see you. If I call you on my Permanent Image, I only see what you explicitly send.
3) A Crystal ball inherits the 1 hour casting time and 1 min/level duration of the base Scrying spell - so at the caster level 10 of the book crystal ball, you spend an hour placing the call, and get cut off ten minutes into the conversation.
4) Lead blocks it, as do many privacy-measure spells that most paranoid wizards will keep up.

Now, you can mitigate problem 1 pretty easily: Become familiar with the undead mouse that the guy carries in his pocket, and have the guy simply order his undead mouse to fail all will saves. He can put his mouse away whenever he doesn't want people calling.

Also:
You can make Crystal ball communication where only the guy who's placing the call has to have the Crystal ball - there's variants, and one of those includes telepathic communication with the viewed subject (ignore the Suggestion clause...). They're more expensive, but not twice as expensive.

ZeroNumerous
2009-12-29, 05:57 PM
What about an intelligent magical item that casts permanent image? It concentrates on the call for the wizard, and would allow conference calls.

Jack_Simth
2009-12-29, 06:08 PM
What about an intelligent magical item that casts permanent image? It concentrates on the call for the wizard, and would allow conference calls.

It can concentrate, yes... but you've got the same problem: In order to have multiple locations in on the call, you need multiple concentrators. So on your end, you'll need one for each location you want in on the call. You have the same problem - it gets really expensive, really quickly.

taltamir
2009-12-29, 06:52 PM
The point of the daily usage is setting up multiple locations. If I'm Mr. Court Wizard, and I want to set up my puppet liege with the ability to conference call with each of the six neighboring kingdoms, plus three remote allies he picked up, I need nine castings for myself (one for each kingdom) as well as a way for me to see what they're doing (which either requires another nine reciprocal castings, a Third Eye Sense to view the area, or similar).

nine isn't worth crafting the item... the idea with the item is having 2 orders of magnitude more phones.

the idea is to get a level 1 commoner, give him this item and an item of teleport, have him set one up in a city per day, every day, for the rest of his life.
If he dies, give his item to his commoner replacement.
His job is to sit in a the "phone office" and project to any city of choice (to which he linked).

taltamir
2009-12-29, 06:56 PM
Crystal Balls will work... but there's a few problems:
1) The guy on the other end has to fail a will save, and if he has SR, you can't really call him. Considering spells such as Demand or Nightmare exist, that's not something you want. Permanent Image doesn't have that problem, as all you're skipping is a disbelief save.
You can willingly fail both.


2) Crystal balls give the person looking the full situation (unless countermeasures are in place). So if I call you on my crystal ball while you're in the bath, I still see you. If I call you on my Permanent Image, I only see what you explicitly send.
thats the thing, crystal balls don't give "call", they give spying... if two people are spying on each other at the same time, then it is a video phone. If one is spying on the other in the bath, then it is voyerism...
All the better... when you start selling scrying balls to the general public, you create a market for casting protection from scrying spells on your shower and bedroom.


3) A Crystal ball inherits the 1 hour casting time and 1 min/level duration of the base Scrying spell - so at the caster level 10 of the book crystal ball, you spend an hour placing the call, and get cut off ten minutes into the conversation.
that is a huge flaw, oops

wormwood
2009-12-29, 07:15 PM
An idea to make it more easy to use... Alarm + Permanency = phone ringing.

ZeroNumerous
2009-12-29, 07:17 PM
It can concentrate, yes... but you've got the same problem: In order to have multiple locations in on the call, you need multiple concentrators. So on your end, you'll need one for each location you want in on the call. You have the same problem - it gets really expensive, really quickly.

And? I'm assuming cost is virtually meaningless as you can generate wealth(wish) and XP(pain factories). If you're going to go pseudo-Tippyverse, why not go all out?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-29, 07:22 PM
If you're going to cut off 10% of your fingernail, why not go all out?

Creative use of magic is one thing; breaking the setting in half is another. Tippyverse isn't a bad setting, but it sure as hell isn't what I want. Pseudo-tippyverses have all the creativity with none of the distasteful rules abuse.

ZeroNumerous
2009-12-29, 07:24 PM
If you're going to cut off 10% of your fingernail, why not go all out?

Because that would actually be harmful. This, however, isn't.


Creative use of magic is one thing; breaking the setting in half is another. Tippyverse isn't a bad setting, but it sure as hell isn't what I want. Pseudo-tippyverses have all the creativity with none of the distasteful rules abuse.

Weird how I was talking to John Simth and you responded. However, I was directing my question toward John Simth, and though I value your input it is not what I want.

Jack_Simth
2009-12-29, 08:58 PM
You can willingly fail both.
Yes you can. However:
1) You don't automatically know what spell is coming at you, nor who is sending it. So if you're expecting that DC-14 Will save Crystal Ball Call any minute now, and someone instead sends you a Demand (long-range Suggestion, essentially - it's a Core spell), you're stuck following whatever order was sent (as you voluntarily gave up your Will save vs. an Enchantment, when you meant to voluntarily give up your Will save vs. a Divination). Identifying spells requires a spellcraft check, and when you can't see the cause, you're left withe the single clause in Spellcraft that lets you ID a spell with no way to see what's happening... and that one clause requires that you just made the save (if you'd like a rules quote, I can dig it up). This is kind of a biggie.
2) Lowering SR requires a standard action, and lasts exactly 1 round. Which means if you've got inherent SR of note, you have to have your incoming calls scheduled, as you can't do anything else of note while waiting for it to come in (ditto).

The Permanent Image has neither issue.



thats the thing, crystal balls don't give "call", they give spying... if two people are spying on each other at the same time, then it is a video phone. If one is spying on the other in the bath, then it is voyerism...

Right... but you don't know where they are until after you've 'called'. So, in advance, you can't tell if they're in the bath, or sitting in their living room, or at the theater, or...

And that's a problem. Which the Permanent Image doesn't have.


All the better... when you start selling scrying balls to the general public, you create a market for casting protection from scrying spells on your shower and bedroom.

*Twitch*

Not the point. See, you can have good reason to set up a permanent, no-further-resources, secure phone between a few people without getting into a Tippyverse (especially when it's relatively cheap if the caster is going to be the one using it - 100 gp material component, and the casting of a few spells, all a one-time fee to set up to talk to the other guy... he has to do similar to talk back, but hey...). Even better in that little-to-no trust is required for this - you're not "open" in any sense of the word when using reciprocal Permanent Images to communicate with another mage; you don't have to drop your defenses at all to make it work. Crystal balls? Yeah, no thanks.



that is a huge flaw, oops
Kinda, yeah.

And? I'm assuming cost is virtually meaningless as you can generate wealth(wish) and XP(pain factories). If you're going to go pseudo-Tippyverse, why not go all out?
Some implications come with it that are a problem in a game environment. See, I'd rather not throw infinite-wealth sources at players... they might start making them happen.

An idea to make it more easy to use... Alarm + Permanency = phone ringing.
Redundant. Permanent Image permits auditory effects. The caller initiates by making whatever ring tone desired occur at the other end.

taltamir
2009-12-29, 09:04 PM
wait... what if you use a scrying orb to scry another orb? only the object / person being scryed gets a save and SR...
and this also avoids the "in the shower" issue... unless they took their orb into their shower.
what if you number them? I want to scry orb #972 755 5555
:)

Siosilvar
2009-12-29, 09:09 PM
Redundant. Permanent Image permits auditory effects. The caller initiates by making whatever ring tone desired occur at the other end.

Permanent Image can't do the mental Alarm, though.

Jack_Simth
2009-12-29, 09:21 PM
Permanent Image can't do the mental Alarm, though.
That's true. Could be handy.

wait... what if you use a scrying orb to scry another orb? only the object / person being scryed gets a save and SR...
and this also avoids the "in the shower" issue... unless they took their orb into their shower.
what if you number them? I want to scry orb #972 755 5555
:)
You need to target a creature, not an object. A skeletal mouse? Sure. An intelligent Orb of Scrying? Sure.

Mind you, you've still got an hour to dial every time, the call terminates after ten minutes, and... oh yes, the other guy has to dial you back, and that one takes an hour... oops.

taltamir
2009-12-29, 09:30 PM
You need to target a creature, not an object. A skeletal mouse? Sure. An intelligent Orb of Scrying? Sure.
A skeletal mouse mounted at the base of the orb of scrying.


Mind you, you've still got an hour to dial every time, the call terminates after ten minutes, and... oh yes, the other guy has to dial you back, and that one takes an hour... oops.

this is why it isn't practical.

2xMachina
2009-12-30, 04:49 AM
Yes and no.

Now, you can mitigate problem 1 pretty easily: Become familiar with the undead mouse that the guy carries in his pocket, and have the guy simply order his undead mouse to fail all will saves. He can put his mouse away whenever he doesn't want people calling.



An undead mouse as a handphone? Cool.

Jack_Simth
2009-12-30, 05:28 PM
An undead mouse as a handphone? Cool.

Technically as a scrying target, but yes. One of the tricks usable by an evil (or neutral with evil tendencies) Cleric for scouting out a place: Command a skeleton of a rat (the standard rat has 1/4 of a hit die. A 1st level Cleric can Command a skeletal mouse, no problems, as long as he can make the rebuke check), scry on the dead rat, and mentally direct the skeleton rat to go where you want. Works best with Greater Scrying, but is quite handy (note: A skeleton rat's Hide check is +11, it's Move Silently check is only +3, both untrained as the mindless undead lose their skills). You can also do this with a live rat by way of Dominate Monster (as an Arcanist) or Dominate Animal (as a Druid).

This is just, you know, making it less sneaky.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-31, 02:20 AM
Conference call is easy enough, you just need one 11th level mage willing to act as a switch board. Three parties: A, B, and C and Switchboard mage X. Mages A, B, and C each cast permanent image at location X. Mage X casts permanent image at locations A, B, and C. A wants to say something to B and C simultaneously and so concentrates on his image at location X, mage X Then concentrates on each of his images at B and C one after the other. There's some lag when calling to multiple locations simultaneously but It's a heck of a lot better than nothing. If you can get an entire guild of Switch Board mages then live communications become easily viable.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-31, 02:22 AM
Conference call is easy enough, you just need one 11th level mage willing to act as a switch board. Three parties: A, B, and C and Switchboard mage X. Mages A, B, and C each cast silent image at location X. Mage X casts silent image at locations A, B, and C. A wants to say something to B and C simultaneously and so concentrates on his image at location X, mage X Then concentrates on each of his images at B and C one after the other. There's some lag when calling to multiple locations simultaneously but It's a heck of a lot better than nothing. If you can get an entire guild of Switch Board mages then live communications become easily viable.Make sure it's an impartial simulacrum, to keep the conversations private and untampered with.

Kelb_Panthera
2009-12-31, 02:24 AM
Holy crap I think I just invented the arcane telephone company:smalleek:

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-31, 02:28 AM
Holy crap I think I just invented the arcane telephone company:smalleek:More easily done under the wish economy of the Tippyverse.

Score another round for Emperor Tippy (with bonus points to Kelb for 'sufficiently advanced technology magic indistinguishable from magic technology').

Jack_Simth
2009-12-31, 07:42 AM
Conference call is easy enough, you just need one 11th level mage willing to act as a switch board. Three parties: A, B, and C and Switchboard mage X. Mages A, B, and C each cast permanent image at location X. Mage X casts permanent image at locations A, B, and C. A wants to say something to B and C simultaneously and so concentrates on his image at location X, mage X Then concentrates on each of his images at B and C one after the other. There's some lag when calling to multiple locations simultaneously but It's a heck of a lot better than nothing. If you can get an entire guild of Switch Board mages then live communications become easily viable.
What do you get?

Well, as Concentration is a standard action, what you get is six seconds of speech at image A, then six seconds of speech at image B, then six seconds of speech at image C. Well, as A's the one talking, you get six seconds of speech at image B, followed by six seconds of speech at image C, but still... just three people in the conversation, and you've got a very painful gap. But it could work.


Make sure it's an impartial simulacrum, to keep the conversations private and untampered with.

Well, if you're doing that, then you need to start with a 22nd level Wizard, you see....

sofawall
2009-12-31, 08:25 AM
Weird how I was talking to John Simth and you responded. However, I was directing my question toward John Simth, and though I value your input it is not what I want.

If you post on a public forum, you are inviting anyone who wants to respond to do just that. If you only cared about the input of one person, you should have sent a private message. Just dismissing something out of hand is a tad rude, to be honest.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-31, 08:34 AM
Just dismissing something out of hand is a tad rude, to be honest.

No need to take offense at things not directed your way.

Actually on-topic... I don't have anything to add. The original suggestion is solid, creative, and flavorful. There are alternatives which have been suggested, and those are also creative. I'll probably.use one or more of these, as a player or DM.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-02, 10:41 PM
What do you get?

Well, as Concentration is a standard action, what you get is six seconds of speech at image A, then six seconds of speech at image B, then six seconds of speech at image C. Well, as A's the one talking, you get six seconds of speech at image B, followed by six seconds of speech at image C, but still... just three people in the conversation, and you've got a very painful gap. But it could work.



Well, if you're doing that, then you need to start with a 22nd level Wizard, you see....

While concentration is a standard action there's absolutely nothing preventing your switchboard mage from concentrating for multiple rounds. I admit that with a single "switchboard operator" it's more than a little clunky, but if you get say a dozen mid-level mages together on this little project, it really starts to take off. Especially if a way to co-opt the concentration for the images is put into play. I'm pretty sure there's a spell for that too.

Swordgleam
2010-01-02, 11:47 PM
It seems like an item cast the spell should enable you to conference call. Imagine a three way call with you at A - you control your image at location B, and your lackey with the item controls you image at location C. The wizards at the other locations also have lackies.



Now, you can mitigate problem 1 pretty easily: Become familiar with the undead mouse that the guy carries in his pocket, and have the guy simply order his undead mouse to fail all will saves. He can put his mouse away whenever he doesn't want people calling.

I highly support undead mice as a part of any long-range magical communication system.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-03, 02:12 AM
I'm gonna put some serious thought into this magical phone company and post it on the home-brew forum I think.