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View Full Version : [3.5] Need advice on bringing airships into my homebrewed world.



Pika...
2009-12-28, 09:12 PM
First off, anyone know any books that go into airships? If so, which would you say was/is the best for the subject? I have always loved the airship genre and I really want to get into it.


Anyway, here is what I think I need to solve to get all this off the ground:

Step 1: Fluff and Explanation. I need to figure out some fluff as to why airships are suddenly appearing on my homebrewed world/setting.
Step 2: What airship system to use. I need to find a good/the best system for airships and airship battles.
Step 3: Inspiration. I need to find a copy of Skies of Arcadia ASAP (got it is rare here :smallfrown:) to get inspiration. Anyone know anything else that would be good inspiration for an airship genre setting?
Step 4: Decide/figure out what the political landscape will become due to this new technology. I am going to need to decide which races are investing in unfolding unfolding this technology, why they are doing so, and which races actually can.
Step 5: I need to decide/figure out how quick this technology develops.





Step 1: Fluff and Explanation.
Below is the very basic and sketchy fluff I have been daydreaming of so far.

-It has been nearly a century since the Last Great Human War which cripped the Human race, and their slaughter that followed by both the savage races and the long-lived races (the later call it the "plague cleansing", though). However, while for the fading Humans and the savage races this might seem a long time for the gods this is but a blink of the eyes.
-When the Humans fell so did their gods. In fact so many divine bodies came splashing down into the Astral Plane in such a short span of time that the plane is still littered with ever expanding ripped of astral waves mixed with what divinity was left within the giant bodies that came splashing into the endless astral.
-These ripples of fallen divinity and displaced astral energy are destined to continue for eons until they either come against resistance strong enough to hualt them, or they eventually catch up with the ever expanding boarders of the plane where they merge with the expanding plane and momentarily trust it's expansion forward at an accelerated rate (a process which leads to many strange phenomenon).
-Around two-hundred years ago one of the remaining Human deities could no longer continue with the madness taking hold of him, and which had caused his children to turn on themselves to the point of self-extermination. He fell into the endless calm of the Astral Plane, and as his eyes closed one final time he sent forth a great wave of his own. As this deity of the skies touched down on the astral with both wings and arms spread open he unknowingly sent in motion one final act of blessing to the mortal children.
-Within x time in my campaign the gods, Animal Lords, and even other planer powers concerned with their mortal followers an/ord charges will begin warning to prepare. There would be a wave of divine energy which will sweep the planet and even the moons and sun. The gods can not intervene directly due to their ancient pact, so they merely warn of what will be.
-What consequences the wave will have is a mystery for which the gods give no answer, but they warn the clergies to keep the populaces calm.


Now what I am thinking might be a workable explanation of how this can all work:
-The sky deities divine energy will completely fill this spelljammer sphere for numerous days (among some other ones across the Prime Material). During this time certain crystals normally mined for their psionic potential (aka to make power stones ad cognitive crystals among other things) which just happened to be naturally attuned to these energies will turn from glowing blue to green.
-These crystalswill eventually become "gravitationally neutrally buoyant" (as the Gnomes describe it). Basically the crystals act in thin air as a neautrally buoyant item would act underwater. In addition, the crystals' unusual ability is so potent that while one could move such a crystal through the air with a single finger, someone holding onto the crystal can become infused with gravitational buoyancy of the crystal for as long as physical contact is retained with it.

In addition, an "Aircrystal" as the Dwarves and Elves will label them are capable of granting gravitational neutral buoyancy to objects many times their mass. Due to this even items as big as ships can potentially be reconfigured to use specially designed Gnome "Aircrystal Anchors" (see image below).


"Gnome Prototype Aircrystal Anchor":

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f173/celestialkin/Unique%20Items/sc0049042c.jpg



Any thoughts/ideas/add ons/critique/just don't like it for this fluff so far? Any suggestion on how it can be improved?




ps. Anyone know what genre airships fall under?!

This question has been killing me for years.

JeminiZero
2009-12-28, 09:39 PM
If you don't want your airships to be powered by fallen divine energy, permit me to present an alternative. I once theorized that if a wizard really wanted to make an airship, he would:

1) Create a large airtight hollow, permanancied object of force. Alternatively, Stormwrack has a material called riverine or some such that is essentially a combination of force and compressed water that can be manipulated or shaped accordingly.
2) Suck all the air out of the object (maye by teleporting it out) so that it is now a vacuum.

Force is indestructable and virtually weightless. The net result would be a force balloon filled with vacuum, akin to a balloon filled with hydogen. It would be lighter than air, and would float off on its own. Even better, it is virtualy indestructable and only disintegrate/cancellaton/disjunction could destroy it.

Varying weight to control buoyanc can be achieved simply using a decanter of water to add weight. And some means of disposing of the water (if its freshwater, simply dumping it overboard works since its little different from rain). Proceed to build Zeppelins around your force balloon. All it needs is for some wizard to invent the concept.

Pika...
2009-12-28, 09:58 PM
If you don't want your airships to be powered by fallen divine energy, permit me to present an alternative. I once theorized that if a wizard really wanted to make an airship, he would:

1) Create a large airtight hollow, permanancied object of force. Alternatively, Stormwrack has a material called riverine or some such that is essentially a combination of force and compressed water that can be manipulated or shaped accordingly.
2) Suck all the air out of the object (maye by teleporting it out) so that it is now a vacuum.

Force is indestructable and virtually weightless. The net result would be a force balloon filled with vacuum, akin to a balloon filled with hydogen. It would be lighter than air, and would float off on its own. Even better, it is virtualy indestructable and only disintegrate/cancellaton/disjunction could destroy it.

Varying weight to control buoyanc can be achieved simply using a decanter of water to add weight. And some means of disposing of the water (if its freshwater, simply dumping it overboard works since its little different from rain). Proceed to build Zeppelins around your force balloon. All it needs is for some wizard to invent the concept.


Hmm. That is a pretty cool one. I always like hearing your posts.

However, I run a very low-magic world. Wizards are semi-myths of godlike proportions, and the last dragon rules the top of an entire continent and can slay entire armies on his own for fun. Hence why I am looking for a sill fantasyish idea, that is still fun and cool, but that is not very magic dependent.

Sort of something PCs can work for and achieve, but with more roleplaying as a hopeful boost. For example: Say they want to make one of these nifty airships that are coming into the seen. They will need to find a Gnome who can figure out how to connect a ship to one (or likely several) of these strange new green crystals, they will need to somehow convince either the Dwarves or Kobolds (the likeliest races to be coming across these first) to trade them some at a time they already know (it will be almost isntant realization I imagine?) they should be stock piling and herding them. That, or find another race (likely the Elves?) who are likely investigating the technology and have enough sway with the major maining race(s) to get some of these crystals (most like with the Dwarves I imagine).

So I guess I am saying simply not having "a wizard did it" makes things o much fun and more roleplaying oriented/feels like you achieved something I guess. That, and again my cosmology is low-magic. :/

jseah
2009-12-28, 10:29 PM
You realize that the crystal also allows for the building of normally impossible structures? Like mile-high towers, or long unsupported bridges.

I think such a crystal would see better use in building construction than in airships; since it doesn't help in propelling the ship, you still need some form of engine.

Sail is problematic (since tacking depends on you having sails in two portions of air with different speeds)
And getting some flying creature to tow the ship makes no difference. May as well spend the money getting more flying creatures.

That said, it's not like magic cannot solve the drive problem (Gust of Wind in a box say) but you said you didn't want a wizard to do it.

How do you feel about giving them a steam engine and propellors? (which are then rendered weightless by the crystal)

Also, on an airship with everything in it at neutral bouyancy in air, would result in very strange effects on the crew. Like pseudo-weightlessness.

************************************

Airships, as in the slow moving huge things, have many similiarities to the naval genre. Since they can and are expected to operate for long periods without resupply, the crew setup, facilities, and various protocols have a lot in common with the navy.

That said, the presence of three dimensions makes it more complicated.
Just thought of this, but perhaps you could call up/down, mastwise and keelward, in homage to water-ship parts which don't exist on airships.

Another_Poet
2009-12-28, 10:49 PM
If you want low-magic then you should do it technologically. Google "early airships" and read a little about early dirigible attempts in our own world. It's quite fascinating, and concepts like hot air, hydrogen, helium or vacuum cells can all be used just as easily in D&D worlds. A semi-rigid airship is easy to build, though slow and easily damaged or destroyed by winds.

One of the things the real world was missing but which is easier to get in a D&D world is propulsion. People peddled early airships like bicycles, or brought coal-fired engines aboard hydrogen-lifted dirigibles, tried a variety of useless sails and paddles, or simply drifted with the wind.

Even if your D&D world is low magic, I presume it has 0-level spells. A series of continuous-use mage hand items could continuously crank propellers. Other low-level spells could come into use too. Or the use of fantastic materials might make all the difference - is a perpetual motion machine possible? What about something that burns and releases energy, but is not particularly hot so it doesn't threaten to ignite the hydrogen?

There are a lot of possibilities. I would saddle up a fantasy propulsion system to a real-world-style early dirigible. You'll end up with a feel that is historic enough to see low-magic even while using magic to make it safer, bigger or faster than the real world version.

ap

JeminiZero
2009-12-29, 07:11 AM
Hmm. That is a pretty cool one. I always like hearing your posts.


Aww shucks.



Now what I am thinking might be a workable explanation of how this can all work:
-The sky deities divine energy will completely fill this spelljammer sphere for numerous days (among some other ones across the Prime Material). During this time certain crystals normally mined for their psionic potential (aka to make power stones ad cognitive crystals among other things) which just happened to be naturally attuned to these energies will turn from glowing blue to green.
-These crystalswill eventually become "gravitationally neutrally buoyant" (as the Gnomes describe it). Basically the crystals act in thin air as a neautrally buoyant item would act underwater. In addition, the crystals' unusual ability is so potent that while one could move such a crystal through the air with a single finger, someone holding onto the crystal can become infused with gravitational buoyancy of the crystal for as long as physical contact is retained with it.

In addition, an "Aircrystal" as the Dwarves and Elves will label them are capable of granting gravitational neutral buoyancy to objects many times their mass. Due to this even items as big as ships can potentially be reconfigured to use specially designed Gnome "Aircrystal Anchors" (see image below).


Well, thinking about it from a plot perspective, here are a few thoughts:

1. Rather than having the crystal becoming infused with anti-grav that lasts for some set time and eventually wearing off, it might be easier to have the crystals simply store the anti-grav energy which another device can draw upon to power flight. I.e. make it the fuel rather than the engine. Otherwise if it has limited duration, the onus will be on nations/companies to use them quickly while they are still fresh, rather than ever stockpiling them.

If you want to keep things decidedly low magic, take a page from Dune, and have the engine be human(oid). Perhaps, the crystal is brewed into a potion that when consumed renders a person unconscious and lets him float. He is then strapped into the airship as its lifting engine. Conveniently, his life functions are suspended (no need to eat/drink/poop) allowing prolonged flight, and his body seems to harden miraculously, letting it support the weight of an entire airship. When the ship seems to be losing power, more potion can be poured down his throat. It would also mean there would be people who specialize as ship engines (e.g. can convert potion efficiently into lift) as their primary occupation. Under such a setting, no one is quite sure how the crystal/potion works, just that it does. No complicated magic devices or spells on such ships.

2. Pricing. How well can the duration/power/storage of a crystal be estimated? If not very well, than purchasing these crystals is a bit like entering the lottery. Furthermore, if duration cannot be accurately estimated, some crystals might spontaneously fail mid-flight leading to Ship Falls, Everyone Dies.

Pika...
2009-12-29, 03:12 PM
You realize that the crystal also allows for the building of normally impossible structures? Like mile-high towers, or long unsupported bridges.

I think such a crystal would see better use in building construction than in airships; since it doesn't help in propelling the ship, you still need some form of engine.

Wow. That is an awesome train of thought! This is why I love talking to the pros. I would have never thought about that myself.

I am guessing the Dwarves would be the first to take advantage of this new construction potential? And perhaps the Gnomes to a lesser/non-industrial extent?

What other wonders could they, or possible other races make with these unusual items?



Sail is problematic (since tacking depends on you having sails in two portions of air with different speeds)
And getting some flying creature to tow the ship makes no difference. May as well spend the money getting more flying creatures.

That said, it's not like magic cannot solve the drive problem (Gust of Wind in a box say) but you said you didn't want a wizard to do it.

How do you feel about giving them a steam engine and propellors? (which are then rendered weightless by the crystal)

Hmmm...

So much creativity you are inspiring me with! :smallbiggrin:

Here are some ideas I got from reading that (please tell me what you think):

Since the Elves are basically the unrivaled major seafaring power of my setting as of it's very early ages, would it make sense that they would indeed have the sailing know-how to be able to propel, sail and maneuver such ships through sails and windpower alone?
The Dwarves I am not so sure about. While they do have iron clads, and I can see a Gnome talking some into sticking one of these "Anchors" into one (probably under great supervision), from what I understand Dwarves do not even like being over water. Being beings of the earth and all that would they take their ironclads to the skies even though they would have access to these green crystals?

Anyway, if they would go into the air I am not thinking steampunk steam engines. Steampunk stuff is mostly "lost" science from a certain steampunk themed city state (though Gnomes and random Tinkers [from WoW d20] are always eager to try rediscovering some of it). However, since I have recently gotten help making a highly fermented Dwarven ale canon.... :smallamused:. Dwarven ale engine anyone?
I can not see what my setting knows as the "savage races" building such ships or airship anchors. Some Goblinoids, Gnolls, and other races do have either VERY primitive vessels, or a couple of old Human ships they still retrain from either working as mercenaries for the ships creators or taking them after the Human Slaughter that followed. So I am really not sure how to get them in the air, and you always need badies to fight. :smallannoyed:
As for Zeppelins, I was thinking that the recent surge in flying vessels might cause the Gnomes to come up with their own "trick" for getting up there. However, I would want them to be significantly weaker and less powerful than an airship.
Coincidentally Elves (especially High Elves) are great allies with Giant Eagles, and their armies are always aided by flying Giant Eagle cavalry. A good connection or reason why the Elves would feel so comfortable integrating this new technology so soon?





How do you feel about giving them a steam engine and propellors? (which are then rendered weightless by the crystal)

Would Dwarven ale make steam? :smallbiggrin:


And I guess Gnome Tinkers could potentially make some, though I would be using the unusual (yet funny!) WoW d20 rules for the tinker technology.


Also, I now imagine propellers and such are a HUGE part of the airship genre, so yeah I would like at least one/some races to make use of them.




Also, on an airship with everything in it at neutral bouyancy in air, would result in very strange effects on the crew. Like pseudo-weightlessness.

Hmm.

Perhaps comparatively to the outside world somehow, but not on/inside the ship due to them making contact/needing to make contact with the ship (usually their feet I imagine)?

Maybe those who fall over can still fly, or at the very least float for a few round after braking contact with the ship? Perhaps a great way to board/have boarding encounters?




Airships, as in the slow moving huge things, have many similiarities to the naval genre. Since they can and are expected to operate for long periods without resupply, the crew setup, facilities, and various protocols have a lot in common with the navy.

Are you describing the genre here, or are you offering inspiration/ideas?




That said, the presence of three dimensions makes it more complicated.
Just thought of this, but perhaps you could call up/down, mastwise and keelward, in homage to water-ship parts which don't exist on airships.

Done. :smallbiggrin:

Pika...
2009-12-29, 03:22 PM
If you want low-magic then you should do it technologically. Google "early airships" and read a little about early dirigible attempts in our own world. It's quite fascinating, and concepts like hot air, hydrogen, helium or vacuum cells can all be used just as easily in D&D worlds. A semi-rigid airship is easy to build, though slow and easily damaged or destroyed by winds.


Will do. I will use it for the Gnomes trying to jump on the bandwagon to get into the air. :smallbiggrin:




One of the things the real world was missing but which is easier to get in a D&D world is propulsion. People peddled early airships like bicycles, or brought coal-fired engines aboard hydrogen-lifted dirigibles, tried a variety of useless sails and paddles, or simply drifted with the wind.

Even if your D&D world is low magic, I presume it has 0-level spells. A series of continuous-use mage hand items could continuously crank propellers. Other low-level spells could come into use too. Or the use of fantastic materials might make all the difference - is a perpetual motion machine possible? What about something that burns and releases energy, but is not particularly hot so it doesn't threaten to ignite the hydrogen?

No, even adepts are big deals on my setting. All magic items are basically artifacts. :/




There are a lot of possibilities. I would saddle up a fantasy propulsion system to a real-world-style early dirigible. You'll end up with a feel that is historic enough to see low-magic even while using magic to make it safer, bigger or faster than the real world version.

ap

Can you explain what you mean here a bit more?

Pika...
2009-12-29, 03:37 PM
Well, thinking about it from a plot perspective, here are a few thoughts:

1. Rather than having the crystal becoming infused with anti-grav that lasts for some set time and eventually wearing off, it might be easier to have the crystals simply store the anti-grav energy which another device can draw upon to power flight. I.e. make it the fuel rather than the engine. Otherwise if it has limited duration, the onus will be on nations/companies to use them quickly while they are still fresh, rather than ever stockpiling them.

Huh?

I am confused. I never thought of making the crystals slowly run out of energy.

I was thinking that they would be semi to extremely rare, but lasted indefinitely.


However, can you explain the crystals being fuel instead of engines part you were describing? I am kind of confused about what you said, but it seems interesting.




If you want to keep things decidedly low magic, take a page from Dune, and have the engine be human(oid). Perhaps, the crystal is brewed into a potion that when consumed renders a person unconscious and lets him float. He is then strapped into the airship as its lifting engine. Conveniently, his life functions are suspended (no need to eat/drink/poop) allowing prolonged flight, and his body seems to harden miraculously, letting it support the weight of an entire airship. When the ship seems to be losing power, more potion can be poured down his throat. It would also mean there would be people who specialize as ship engines (e.g. can convert potion efficiently into lift) as their primary occupation. Under such a setting, no one is quite sure how the crystal/potion works, just that it does. No complicated magic devices or spells on such ships.

Drinking/eating one of these things? O.o

That is an interesting idea I am not sure how would work, but boy I know a player will have his PC do it sooner or later...




2. Pricing. How well can the duration/power/storage of a crystal be estimated? If not very well, than purchasing these crystals is a bit like entering the lottery. Furthermore, if duration cannot be accurately estimated, some crystals might spontaneously fail mid-flight leading to Ship Falls, Everyone Dies.

I see. This is a whole new dimension to the political issue I guess, and I imagine that right off the bat most/no races would be very familiar with these things. Probably not enough to measure it's strength I guess.


My original design plan was to have several of these "air anchors" on a sing ship at various points. Sort of like a submarine has different ballast tanks. Each one keeping a section/part of the ship "neutrally buoyant" in the air, with each taking a share of the wait, and the bigger the ship the more that are needed.

Would this change your plans/ideas? Could it still be done?

Radar
2009-12-29, 04:25 PM
If the dwarven ale is potent enough, you could make combustion engines instead of a steam engines. Slap a proppeler on it and you have a highly efficient propulsion. It could co-generate steam (the engine does heat up siginificantly) for additional power, that could be used to operate some on-board machinery (think gnomish -> think mad science :smallbiggrin:).

As for the savage species, they might be more fun, then a barrel of monkeys. I would imagine, that they might experiment with the stones and more often then not, those experiments would backfire. Some primitive flotation rafts with a few goblins/gnolls/what-have-you clinging to it stranded high in the air with no actual propulsion seem quite a probable encounter. They might learn, that objects thrown from a raft regain weight and try to throw thing in the air, so that they would hit in the raft and push it down. If they try too hard, expect some holes in the raft.
Yet, there is a viable tactic, they can come up with. Consider a baloon basket of sorts with a flotation stone being tied to some heavy rock by an exceptionally long rope. Ambush party employed with additional ropes and hooks gets in the basket. The basked gets fired from a catapult/giant sling in direction of a passing by real airship. Thanks to the hooks, they can board the ship and go back down with their basket after looting.

jseah
2009-12-29, 05:56 PM
Oh wow. A zero magic setting.
XD Then, yes, you have major problems without at least steam engine technology. Combustion engines might require a bit more tech to work.

Even if elves were the unrivaled seafaring power, they would quickly discover that using sails in airships doesn't allow you to go anywhere except with the wind.
- I just read the wikipedia article on Tacking (sailing) and apparently travelling upwind is called Beating.
- The technique requires the water to push your keel. Which obviously doesn't exist in air. Travelling upwind then becomes impossible.

Secondly, boats don't work very well as airships. Open decks are not something you want when you're a mile above the ground.
Any airship vessel to be taken as a serious attempt at controlling the sky and not just an experiment will be purpose built.
My reference to the navy is just my impression of the genre. Actual airships aren't going to work like a ship apart from logistical similarity.

Given the number of problems (and the lack of a true engine since you say steampower isn't widely available), I think the focus will be more on floating structures than anything else.
Giant eagles can tow them but I doubt they qualify as airships.

If you want airships, you need an engine.

Pika...
2009-12-29, 06:36 PM
http://www.amazon.com/Airships-BAS1009-Sam-Witt/dp/1592630006

Before this thread has anyone ever heard of this book, or used it?

It seems interesting, but sadly it is 3.0 rather than 3.5...:smallfrown:

Randel
2009-12-29, 08:04 PM
Well, not sure if this would help but there is a Lets Play of Skies of Arcadia on youtube here (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=DBDD47315FBE8ED9&search_query=skies+of+arcadia).

If you want you could watch that to get some idea on what the game is like.




Also, some ideas:

1. The buoyancy crystals each 'generate' a certain amount of anti-grav energy over time that can either be stored up to allow for flight with limited duration or if you have enough of them then you could have a permanantly floating construct.

Thus, you can have huge floating fortresses or castles that have lots of anti-grav crystals in them, these places are the expensive fortresses of the major powers. They aren't really meant to be mobile (though there are some that are mobile).

Thus, there are many different types of airships:

Fortresses - Expensive well-armored flying castles. They are literally fortresses in the air, their armor makes it difficult to take them out via airship attacks and they are impossible to attack from the ground or sea (unless you've got really long-range weapons). They have huge stockpiles of anti-grav crystals hooked up into them, often four times as many as it would take to levitate a battleship (this is due to the armor the fortress has). They can be moved around if one has the engines and many have an 'emergency landing' thing in place so that they could potentially be parked on the grond some where while they remove the crystals to power ships. Fortresses are basically permanant places and a sign of their owners power.

Battle Carriers - huge airships held aloft by hundreds of anti-grav crystals. They are decently armored, but their major use is to carry about many smaller aircraft as they fly. They are designed to be permanantly aloft, although they are usually designed so that they can land in water and sail that way.

Air Craft - The vast majority of aircraft, they have maybe one or two anti-grav crystals build in and can fly for limited time before they have to stop and rest (dual crystal craft can go for 24 hour non-stop before resting for 24 hours, single ones go for 12 hours). They encompass many different designed and purposes from flying recon, dropping bombs on ground targets, ariel combat, moving troops or supplies, or other tasks.

Air Skimmers - Very small craft, often only carrying a single person with room for some weaponry or storage space. These ones can stay in the air practically indefinitely (the pilot usually has to land to stretch his legs or get more food before his ship has to rest). They are among the most plentiful and easily produced aircraft around since they only really require a small engine to move them around.


Goblins, Orks, and other 'primitive' races have figured out how to build their own rickety aircraft, mostly Air Skimmers. These are often made out of carved wood with propellers (think Native American canoes in their general design), small Goblins are light enough to stay on these skimmers and propel them with a bicycle-like contraption that powers the propeller while the pilot uses the steering mechanism to pilot it.

These primitive aircraft are not quite as strong as industrially made ones, but they are very cheap to make and can be manufactured by pretty much anyone. The designs were taken by a few pretty intelligent goblins who examined the gnomish designs and crashed aircraft and made a cheaper wooden version for themselves. The designs got spread all over all the tribes and there are 'craft makers' who spend all their time making aircraft frames using wood and leather and whatever metal they can get. These frames usually sit inert until someone get an anti-grav crystal to power it.

The goblins are the most plentiful users of these aircraft due to their smaller size (they can fly faster than others and can have two or three people on a craft, taking turns pedaling it) though orcs often try to muscle in on the action. In mutually benefiting arrangements the Orc acts as the bruiser and warrior when they fight people while the goblin stays with the skimmer. In less friendly cases the goblin is basically a slave used to power the skimmer.

Max occupancy for a skimmer is three small creatures or one medium and one small, so there are some single-occupant orc skimmers out there but most of them have a goblin on board.

skimmers made by other races have some other power source which lets them go faster but they require fuel to run... dwarves might have a motor that runs on ale, goblins just drink the ale and pedal the thing themselves.

Pika...
2009-12-29, 09:46 PM
Well, not sure if this would help but there is a Lets Play of Skies of Arcadia on youtube here (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=DBDD47315FBE8ED9&search_query=skies+of+arcadia).

If you want you could watch that to get some idea on what the game is like.




Also, some ideas:

1. The buoyancy crystals each 'generate' a certain amount of anti-grav energy over time that can either be stored up to allow for flight with limited duration or if you have enough of them then you could have a permanantly floating construct.

Thus, you can have huge floating fortresses or castles that have lots of anti-grav crystals in them, these places are the expensive fortresses of the major powers. They aren't really meant to be mobile (though there are some that are mobile).

Thus, there are many different types of airships:

Fortresses - Expensive well-armored flying castles. They are literally fortresses in the air, their armor makes it difficult to take them out via airship attacks and they are impossible to attack from the ground or sea (unless you've got really long-range weapons). They have huge stockpiles of anti-grav crystals hooked up into them, often four times as many as it would take to levitate a battleship (this is due to the armor the fortress has). They can be moved around if one has the engines and many have an 'emergency landing' thing in place so that they could potentially be parked on the grond some where while they remove the crystals to power ships. Fortresses are basically permanant places and a sign of their owners power.

Battle Carriers - huge airships held aloft by hundreds of anti-grav crystals. They are decently armored, but their major use is to carry about many smaller aircraft as they fly. They are designed to be permanantly aloft, although they are usually designed so that they can land in water and sail that way.

Air Craft - The vast majority of aircraft, they have maybe one or two anti-grav crystals build in and can fly for limited time before they have to stop and rest (dual crystal craft can go for 24 hour non-stop before resting for 24 hours, single ones go for 12 hours). They encompass many different designed and purposes from flying recon, dropping bombs on ground targets, ariel combat, moving troops or supplies, or other tasks.

Air Skimmers - Very small craft, often only carrying a single person with room for some weaponry or storage space. These ones can stay in the air practically indefinitely (the pilot usually has to land to stretch his legs or get more food before his ship has to rest). They are among the most plentiful and easily produced aircraft around since they only really require a small engine to move them around.


Goblins, Orks, and other 'primitive' races have figured out how to build their own rickety aircraft, mostly Air Skimmers. These are often made out of carved wood with propellers (think Native American canoes in their general design), small Goblins are light enough to stay on these skimmers and propel them with a bicycle-like contraption that powers the propeller while the pilot uses the steering mechanism to pilot it.

These primitive aircraft are not quite as strong as industrially made ones, but they are very cheap to make and can be manufactured by pretty much anyone. The designs were taken by a few pretty intelligent goblins who examined the gnomish designs and crashed aircraft and made a cheaper wooden version for themselves. The designs got spread all over all the tribes and there are 'craft makers' who spend all their time making aircraft frames using wood and leather and whatever metal they can get. These frames usually sit inert until someone get an anti-grav crystal to power it.

The goblins are the most plentiful users of these aircraft due to their smaller size (they can fly faster than others and can have two or three people on a craft, taking turns pedaling it) though orcs often try to muscle in on the action. In mutually benefiting arrangements the Orc acts as the bruiser and warrior when they fight people while the goblin stays with the skimmer. In less friendly cases the goblin is basically a slave used to power the skimmer.

Max occupancy for a skimmer is three small creatures or one medium and one small, so there are some single-occupant orc skimmers out there but most of them have a goblin on board.

skimmers made by other races have some other power source which lets them go faster but they require fuel to run... dwarves might have a motor that runs on ale, goblins just drink the ale and pedal the thing themselves.

Dude, I LOVE this stuff. :smallbiggrin:

Thank you so much. So nice, and so potentially painful for my players.


ps. Do you happen to know of any systems/books for the mechanics of all this?

jseah
2009-12-29, 09:52 PM
Steam engines don't have the weight-thrust ratio to make short-range flying craft viable. When your ship goes at a walking pace, there isn't much point to short range craft.

I think rockets / turbines are too high tech for this, if I understand the setting correctly.

You're stuck with zeppelin-like craft, although much much smaller.

Pika...
2009-12-29, 10:21 PM
If the dwarven ale is potent enough, you could make combustion engines instead of a steam engines. Slap a proppeler on it and you have a highly efficient propulsion. It could co-generate steam (the engine does heat up siginificantly) for additional power, that could be used to operate some on-board machinery (think gnomish -> think mad science :smallbiggrin:).

Done. :smallbiggrin:

Ironic to boot, since well fermented dwarven ale blowing up is a running gag in my games...



As for the savage species, they might be more fun, then a barrel of monkeys. I would imagine, that they might experiment with the stones and more often then not, those experiments would backfire. Some primitive flotation rafts with a few goblins/gnolls/what-have-you clinging to it stranded high in the air with no actual propulsion seem quite a probable encounter.

LoL!

This is perfect! Especially for the first/early days of this "new age". Oh the hystericalness of such a scene as the PCs are flying by to spot a Goblin sitting on a stick raft stuck in midair with his chin on his palm and his elbow on his knee with an annoyed look on his face.


They might learn, that objects thrown from a raft regain weight and try to throw thing in the air, so that they would hit in the raft and push it down. If they try too hard, expect some holes in the raft.

Pure gold. Especially if PCs are either stuck taking voyage on such a vessel, or see their enemies "sink" their own ship (should there be a % chart for this during an encounter?).



Yet, there is a viable tactic, they can come up with. Consider a baloon basket of sorts with a flotation stone being tied to some heavy rock by an exceptionally long rope. Ambush party employed with additional ropes and hooks gets in the basket. The basked gets fired from a catapult/giant sling in direction of a passing by real airship. Thanks to the hooks, they can board the ship and go back down with their basket after looting.

Oh Sardior....

The looks on PCs faces will be awesome!

Pika...
2009-12-29, 10:23 PM
Steam engines don't have the weight-thrust ratio to make short-range flying craft viable. When your ship goes at a walking pace, there isn't much point to short range craft.

I think rockets / turbines are too high tech for this, if I understand the setting correctly.

You're stuck with zeppelin-like craft, although much much smaller.

But isn't it different if the craft(s) are "neutrally buoyant"? I imagined even a propeller attached to a bike would be of some use in such cases?

Mando Knight
2009-12-29, 10:50 PM
But isn't it different if the craft(s) are "neutrally buoyant"? I imagined even a propeller attached to a bike would be of some use in such cases?

Newton's First Law: The change of velocity of a body with respect to time is directly proportional to the sum of the forces applied to the body and inversely proportional to the mass of the body. That is, ΣF=ma.

Steam engines aren't efficient enough to cause desirable thrust to keep the vehicle moving against the air resistance when it's using less efficient means of propulsion such as propellers. There's a reason why those locomotives are so large.

Inhuman Bot
2009-12-29, 10:51 PM
Suggestion: Search for 'Ebberon'.

Pika...
2009-12-29, 10:56 PM
Newton's First Law: The change of velocity of a body with respect to time is directly proportional to the sum of the forces applied to the body and inversely proportional to the mass of the body. That is, ΣF=ma.

Steam engines aren't efficient enough to cause desirable thrust to keep the vehicle moving against the air resistance when it's using less efficient means of propulsion such as propellers. There's a reason why those locomotives are so large.

Hmm.

Smart one you be.

What if I say the Dwarven engines are indeed combustion engines then, and the "steam" they produce is just left over heat they are harnessing as suggested above?

Mando Knight
2009-12-29, 11:05 PM
That would work better. Combustion engines are more energy-efficient than steam engines, allowing for greater thrust.

Now, do note that having widespread aircraft implies a certain magi-tech level in the campaign world: either enough tech to create aircraft without magic (as ours is, starting with balloons and primitive heavier-than-air craft up to today) or sufficient magic to avoid the physics problems. "Aircrystals" are magic, due to their physical impossibility. Be sure to account for any questions that arise from this, especially in a low-magic world. (Proper low-magic is also low-psionic, as psionics are essentially another form of magic)

jseah
2009-12-29, 11:07 PM
Well, if you can get a good amount of weight-thrust ratio, like the WWI planes, then fast-attack short-range craft like biprops and bombers become possible. You have some leeway since the thrust doesn't have to hold the plane up, but you still need a good amount, certainly not less than half that of the WWI engines.

It won't affect the way the large ships work (except make them marginally faster) and the large ships will serve as firing bases to carry heavy weapons that biprops cannot.
- Sort of in the same position as helicopters and gunships in today's world. Only many many times larger and with naval-scale weaponry.

I'm also sorry to say that the flying aircraft carrier is useless unless there's a lot of sea you need to control. I take it that the crystals are expensive. If so, it's simply easier to land a squad and clear a makeshift air-field instead of deploying super-expensive capital-class carriers simply to refuel fighters.
- Which is where the sea part comes in. Flying aircraft carriers are more secure than sea-based ones (and only a few times more expensive), so they will find use in operations over bodies of water that the short-range craft cannot transverse.

As for weather, if you simply ascend to 12 000 ft+, you can get past a lot of cloud problems with the bonus that ground observers have problems attacking you without an air-sortie.
Bombs can be dropped from any height, just that targeting can be a bit of a pain when you're that far up.

Mando Knight
2009-12-29, 11:20 PM
Well, if you can get a good amount of weight-thrust ratio, like the WWI planes, then fast-attack short-range craft like biprops and bombers become possible. You have some leeway since the thrust doesn't have to hold the plane up, but you still need a good amount, certainly not less than half that of the WWI engines.

If they're all cigar-shaped rather than airplane-shaped (that is, more aerodynamic), yeah.

The thrust isn't to hold the aircraft up, it's to keep the aircraft moving forward. The lift generated by the airfoils do nothing to the magnitude of the velocity, but is dependent on aircraft speed, and higher speeds induce higher aerodynamic drag. If you need a lecture on the hows and whys aircraft fly, I'm sorry, but my books are a couple hundred miles away so I'll have to do it all from memory and half-baked Wikipedia-ing.

Another thing you'll need to think about if you really want to look into the mechanics of mobile aircraft (rather than handwave most of it) is control.

Randel
2009-12-30, 06:55 AM
Dude, I LOVE this stuff. :smallbiggrin:

Thank you so much. So nice, and so potentially painful for my players.


ps. Do you happen to know of any systems/books for the mechanics of all this?

No, I don't know of any books. Well, Explorers Handbook (for Eberron) might have something about airships but not so much about fortresses and stuff.


Anyway, inspirations for the ideas came from a few sources:

1). The Jak and Daxter video game series. In Jak II and III there is Haven City that has flying cars called zoomers (http://jakanddaxter.wikia.com/wiki/Zoomer) (well, they sort of float between high and low lanes of traffic) and the are always hovering until they crash at which point they fall like a rock. One of my favorite ones is the red Krimson Guard Hellcat Zoomer (http://jakanddaxter.wikia.com/wiki/Hellcat_Zoomer), the guards fly on them and it has a gun on the bottom that lets them float above you and fire down at you. You can steal them and fire the gun (unfortunatly it only fires straight ahead, so you cant really target ground enemies with it). I think its pretty cool and would have been totally cool to use during the times where the city is flooded with Metal Head enemies and killer robots (the dumb guards never use them when it would make sense to use them and the later good guys apparently scrapped them all).

I understand that there is a new game in the series called Lost Frontier or something that I haven't played but it has lots of flying aircraft in this big empty part of the world. Might want to youtube it for ideas.


2. Tale Spin (an old Disney tv show where the cast from Jungle Book live in a world where pretty much everyone flies in planes). There have been a few episodes of note, one where there is a country full of warlike Panda bears who attacked Cape Suzette with flying pagotas (those chinese towers that I think are made of bamboo) they flew by having huge balloons rising from the tops (in one scene a fighter pilot shot holes in the balloon with a machine gun and then a pair of ninja pandas climbed up the balloon and patched it up before the pagoda fell... yeah, its pretty messed up) they had stuff like heat-seeking missiles and exploding rockets that looked like fireworks. Oh, and Baloo managed to evade the heat-seeking missiles by filling his plane with ice cream. I think Disney shoved that episode in the vault forever because it depicted chinese panda bears as being awesome.

Another episode had Louie start a mid-air gas station restaurant where airplanes could stop by on their way to other places. Baloo and his boss had their own station nearby and started sabotaging eachother to eliminate the competition for mid-air refueling and food serving (Its a competitive market). In the end, Baloo and Louie decided to blow up each of their own flying gas stations to avoid ruining their friendship... and then hilarity happened.

Oh, and don't forget the air pirates who have their own airborn aircraft carrier called the Iron Vulture. In the pilot episode they got their hands on a super-charged crystal which they used to power a lightning cannon to hold Cape Suzette for ransom. They did other stuff like try to steal a glacier that Baloo was carrying halfway across the world because they thought he was hiding diamonds in it (he earlier tricked them by hiding rubies in cases of strawberry jam) they chopped it up but it fell on top of the palace of the sultan who ordered it... which suit him just fine because he wanted a ski slope in the Sahara Desert.

and thats just the stuff I remember


3). The megaman legends series of video games (only three games, counting the Misadventures of Tron Bonne) flying ships are fairly common but they all are built to resemble fish. The Flutter (http://megaman.wikia.com/wiki/Flutter) that Megaman and Roll fly in looks kind of like a goldfish and is their home, the Gesellschaft (http://megaman.wikia.com/wiki/Gesellschaft) looks kind of like a big shark (sorta) and its used by the Bonne family of pirates, the Sulpher-Bottom (http://megaman.wikia.com/wiki/Sulphur-Bottom) looks like a huge shark and is the biggest ship in the series though it was only used to try and navigate through a massive hurricane that surrounded Forbidden Island.



and...

4). The Firefly tv series. notably the reavers. I kind of got the idea of primitive cobbled together airships from the reavers (who use cobbled together spaceships) the reavers are outright insane, decorating their ships with the mangled bodies of their victims and having the reactors overloaded and leaking radiation everywhere to make them go much faster than a regular ship would.

5). Eh... I suppose I might as well toss in the Orkz from warhammer 40k since they are orks who manage to build rickety space ships due to genetic memory of engineering and psychic powers that makes garbage work.

6). Also the Mortal Engines (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MortalEngines) series, a post-apocolyptic world where cities are mobile. Cities move around the world, hunt down and prey on smaller cities to steal all its resources and enslave its inhabitants. Various smaller societies mover around seeking resources and their hunting, parasiting, or bottom-feeding their way to get resources.



Anyway, no real rules on how this would work... but I imagine that a flying civilization or group would have distinct advantages over ground-based ones (you can't drop bombs up). Having a flying ship gives you power over other ground-based foes gives you power, and having a flying base gives you more.

However, to keep a base permanantly aloft you need lots of Aircrystal. To make it heavily armored to be defensible you need still more. Thus, for the number of stones needed to make a Fortress or a Battle Carrier, you could have lots and lots of Air Craft or even huge swarms of Air Skimmers.

Heck, as all action movie heroes know, one small stealthy team can slip in past security. And what are they after? The Aircrystals that keep the fortress afloat! Raiding a Fortress is a matter of either taking out its inhabitants and taking it for yourself, stealing as many Aircrystals as you can, or... bash up as many Aircrystals as you can until the Fortress is no longer able to fly and take off while the thing crashes to the ground! Then feel free to pick through the rubble or search the semi-intact ruins at your leisure (why fight the boss of the level when you can crash the level and rob the mangled corpse of the boss later?).

Heck, many of the 'dungeons' and 'ruins' you run into could be the crashed remains of airships that fell in battle. Since Aircrystals are worth more than their weight in gold... (actually... would you measure an Aircrystal value by its anti-weight?? :smallconfused:) then you might have to fight off all the orcs and goblins who are rushing to the scene to grab aircrystals from the rubble to take back to waiting Air Skimmer frames.

If an aircrystal drops to the ground, someone will grab it and use it to take to the sky, that is the law of anti-gravity.

jseah
2009-12-30, 08:37 AM
Another thing you'll need to think about if you really want to look into the mechanics of mobile aircraft (rather than handwave most of it) is control.
Cigar shaped is what I was thinking of. (well, more ellipsoid or teardrop shaped)

The propellors are either behind or in front.

Control just takes a small sail for a rudder / tailfin. Add little flaps on the sides for alierons and spoilers.
And the ability to crank up/down the engine output.