The Thread of Protest

[Zeta Kai]

I am here to protest the endless wave of go-nowhere, do-nothing threads that are choking this forum. Feel free to add your voice to the chorus of people who are sick & tired of seeing the same half-dozen pop up week after week. Or be avant-guard & postmodern by protesting our protest.

Here are the thread topics that seriously need to die:

Monks Suck, Why?
Aliases

Let's Fix the Monk
Monks Are Actually the Best Class, But They Have Kept it a Secret for the Past 10 Years
Ways to Get a Monk to Kill a Wizard
I Like Playing as a Monk!
Melee Classes Can't Have Nice Things

Fighters Suck, Why?
Aliases

Let's Fix the Fighter
Fighters Are Actually the Best Class, But They Have Kept it a Secret for the Past 10 Years
Ways to Get a Fighter to Kill a Wizard
I Like Playing as a Fighter!
Non-Casters Can't Have Nice Things

Wizards Rule, Why?
Aliases

Let's Nerf the Wizard
Wizards are Broken & Must be Nerfed
I Love Wizards
I Hate Wizards
Wizards are Invincible
Ways to Fix the Wizard
Ways to Break the Wizard
Wizards Are Actually a Lame Class, But They Have Kept it a Secret for the Past 10 Years
Wizards Can Be Beaten by Using the Following Cheese
Stupid Stunts that a Only a Wizard is Allowed to Do

Alignments are Crazy!
Aliases

Alignments are Stupid
Alignments are a Straightjacket on Roleplay
Alignments are Actually Useful
A Different Take on Alignments
Ways to Fix the Alignment System
A New Way to Argue About Alignments
Alignments of Real-Life People Than Can Never Be Agreed Upon
Alignments of Fictional People In Media that Don't Use Alignments
Yet Another Pointless Alignment Thread
Debating Alignments is Totally a Worthwhile Thing to Do
Are You Blue in the Face Yet? No? Then Let's Talk About Alignments

Past Edition vs. Other Edition: Which Would Win in a Fight?
Aliases

Edition Fight!
The Edition That I'm Used To Is Superior to the Edition That You're Used To
Let's Set the Internet on Fire
We Should Argue Until the Thread Gets Locked
Anyone Up for Flaming Each Other Until One or More of Us Gets Banned?
A Cool New Way to Rack Up Some Infraction Points
What's the Difference Between This Edition & That Edition?
I'm Thinking About Playing This Edition, Please Kill Each Other Trying to Convince Me That I'm Playing the Right One
Uncivil Edition Debate #386,477

Pun-Pun, What's That?
Aliases

Has Anyone Heard of Pun-Pun?
How Do I Become Pun-Pun?
Help! My DM Won't Let Me Be Pun-Pun!
Pun-Pun vs. A Non-Pun-Pun
Things to Do When You're Pun-Pun
How to Fix Pun-Pun
Pun-Pun In Your Game
I've Made Pun-Pun a God in My Pantheon, And He Keeps My Players from Becoming Pun-Pun
Pun-Pun is Actually Unoptimized; Here's a Better Way to Gain Infinite Power By Ignoring RAW, RAI, RAP, & My DM's Screams
Pun-Pun Should Be, Like, Banned or Something

What Are These Tiers That Everyone is Talking About?
Aliases

Class Tiers: What Are They?
Hey, Have You Guys Ever Heard of Class TIERS?
What's All This Tier Stuff About?
Tires Don Exits
Tires Do, Indeed, Exits
Tiers Are Meaningless
Tiers Are the End-All, Be-All of Class Debates
What Tier is This Class?
We Should Make Tiers for Prestige Classes!
We Should Make Tiers for Races!
Should Make Tiers for Feats!
Should Make Tiers for Editions!
Should Make Tiers for EVERYTHING!!@1!

Tome of Battle: What Do You Think?
Aliases

ToB Sucks
ToB Rules
ToB is Overpowered
ToB Got Anime in My D&D
ToB: It's Wuxia, Not Anime
ToB: Who Cares?
ToB: Fixing Bad Classes By Replacing Bad Classes with Better Classes
What's Up With ToB?
I'm Curious About This ToB Thing...
ToB is a Great Way to Pick a Fight With Your DM
ToB: The Never Ending Debate
ToB: Back Again

Truenamer, What Wrong With This Class?
Aliases

The Truenamer Sucks & Other Things That Were Debated to Death Years Ago
Samurai, What Wrong With This Class?
Commoner, What Wrong With This Class?
Are Feats Good?
Hey, I Just Discovered Some Game-Breaking Trick That Won't Really Work! Discuss!
I Have a Question About Some Topic That Was Discussed Last Week, But I Thought Everyone Would Like to Talk It Over Again
I'm Gonna Start a Thread About Something that Just HAD to Be Discussed Already, But I'm Too Lazy to Search for the Many Discussions About It

So, that's my rant. <whew!> BTW, my ultimate point here, if I have such a thing, is to point out that there are several topics just as divisive & pointless as discussions about religion or politics, & that maybe these other topics shouldn't be brought up every fortnight like clockwork. Just sayin'.

What topics do you think should be laid to rest?

[Reinboom]

I completely support this well organized 'rant'. This will provide a significant assistance to me, and in fact, I intended to post an information gathering project in seeking out exactly what you just listed (though, a bit more focused). Now I don't need to. Thank you.

You are definitely lawful good. =P


Also, I would highly recommend actually linking to the topics that contain each subtype of argument, at least, over time. That would turn this into a very convenient "see here" thread when the inevitable question on one of these subjects comes up.

[Killer Angel]

While I can feel your pain, and agree with many of the topics you'd listed (in a creative and funny way), I don't think that a Thread to stop other threads, will have a great success.
In the end, if recurrent topics are, well, recurrent, the reason is that peoples like to discuss them. And sometime they even like to copy-paste the old posts. :smallwink:

[mikej]

*claps"

Although, the perfert irony, this threat may turn out to be the same thing you were ranting about.

Well, now for something meaningfull to add. At least I can say the Monk/Fighter topics will never end, sadly. If d&d has taught me anything, it's that people certainly love one particular thing, and they'll defend that thing even in the face of overwelming logic. My old buddy loves Fighters, thinks they're the most usefull class, comes up with tactics to beat other characters. When the topic turns into Ftr vs X caster than the war begins.

Another valid thing to consider. Newer players ( also older players but new to the forums ) may bring it up regardless if it's excepted or not. Most gamer groups are different from one another and some may actually believe the "Monk" is godly. Mine used to believe that every PHB class & race were balanced with the rest because of magic gear, feats, and race choice. Then when that viewpoint meets the collective views of the web than issues may turn up.

Edit: I didn't see a section for "tier" debates. Or is that generally just included in that individual class discussion?

[sonofzeal]

Speaking as someone guilty of at least two of those...

I'd add "help me be an utter jerk to my DM", "help me be an utter jerk to my players", "help me be an utter jerk to my allies", and "omg someone in my group is an utter jerk what do I do" to the list.

(edit) I recommend the category title, "Can You Feel The Love"

[cheezewizz2000]

The solution would be to sticky one of each of the above threads. That way, they're there and available for people who like to lick paint so they can watch it dry again.

[DrGonzo]

I agree.

Have an internet.. :smallsmile:

You could also have called it: The search function, and why it's there..

[cheezewizz2000]

I agree.

Have an internet.. :smallsmile:

You could also have called it: The search function, and why it's there..

But the search function is so HARD. I mean you have to actually scroll all the way over to the button, click it and then type a couple of words about your problem. Much easier to write a poorly-worded essay.

[SparkMandriller]

I've never had problems with monk threads on my forum.


You must be doing your monk threads wrong. Once, I had a member make a monk thread which got more posts than a wizard thread. Monk threads are obviously fine.

[Arakune]

Now I want to see the "wizards are actualy crap but they kept it a secret for the past 10 years" topic.

[Ormagoden]

Zeta,

I must say that I fully support your undertaking. I find it highly annoying to continually see and answer the same questions over and over. I find it highly annoying to see the same people in the same thread answer the same questions over and over. I find it highly annoying to continually see the same people argue over the same thing in the same thread as they attempt to answer the same questions over and over.

Be that as it may, I sadly don't see a solution besides making a "talk about _____" button so that people who somehow don't know how to type a word in the search field can function. That or simply stomp every thread as soon as it appears with a link to a previous thread that can provide answers.

In fact a thread that contains a link to the appropriate threads you mentioned above might help. I may begin this undertaking.

Wish me luck...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I'd also recommend linking to some of the more (in)famous debates on each topic. That way, we can simply link this thread and have it be a decent answer to most of the new versions of these topics that will inevitably come up.

[ex cathedra]

Let's not forget :

What the hell is Incarnum?
There's this Incarnum thing and I'm not getting it

Psionics
OMG Broken : My 4th level Psion does 17d6 damage
Psionics are, like, way more balanced than Vancian casting
Yo kids, this awesome class makes a knife with its soul; is it broken?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Let's not forget :

What the hell is Incarnum?It's understandable that someone would make that thread, Incarnum is complicated, and someone explaining and reacting to you is far easier to understand than some guy and some other guy discussing the system 6 weeks ago.

Plus, I haven't seen many of those threads about, just the occasional complaint in other threads that Incarnum makes no sense.

[Ranos]

You forgot the soulknife.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

You are definitely lawful good.
I'd have pegged him as neutral evil.

[ex cathedra]

Maybe it's just me, then, but I notice people asking about Incarnum rather often. Not Monk/Wizard/Fighter often, but still.

[sonofzeal]

In fact a thread that contains a link to the appropriate threads you mentioned above might help. I may begin this undertaking.

Wish me luck...
"Topic locked for Thread Necromancy" in 5... 4... 3... :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:



That's the thing, over here. We can't have the same discussion all in one place, because eventually it'll lag and official moderation policy here is it's better to start a new thread than to revive old ones. I don't entirely disagree, personally (reviving an old thread means the people you're replying to may not be active anymore, and topics tend to drift over time), but you'll have to get that official policy changed if you want to prevent duplicate threads.

Also, occasionally, people bring new stuff to the plate that might get lost in its own thread. My alignment topic, for example; I've referred to it several times, but in the middle of someone else's thread it's just a distraction and there's no space to properly explain it.

[lesser_minion]

The big issue with the search function is that you actually have to use Google's, because waiting two minutes between each search when you mistyped something is kind of difficult.


Personally, I still manage to get caught up in those threads from time to time, and you're right. They don't work, they don't go anywhere, and they don't achieve anything.

With one exception. The fastest way to learn the first two rules of wizards/monks/cheese/bananas/peaches/penguins is to post a thread on one of them.

[LibraryOgre]

Problem: If we go with stopping those kinds of threads, we have about six posts a day.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

And they'd be about 4e.

[lesser_minion]

Problem: If we go with stopping those kinds of threads, we have about six posts a day.

Friendly Banter, Media Discussions, Board/site issues, Homebrew Design, Gaming (other), Order of the Stick, Erfworld, Webcomics, Arts and Crafts, Ongoing Games (In-character), Finding Players, and Silly Message Board Games called. They'd like a word.

[jokey665]

Personally, I feel we need more "Tires don exits" threads, solely because I want more threads derived from Smash Bros. memes. Maybe somebody should make a flaw based on Johning or something.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Problem: If we go with stopping those kinds of threads, we have about six posts a day.

I'm calling bull here. We'd still have plenty of topics in this sub-forum alone. And as lesser_minion said, there ARE other forums.

[Zeta Kai]

Friendly Banter, Media Discussions, Board/site issues, Homebrew Design, Gaming (other), Order of the Stick, Erfworld, Webcomics, Arts and Crafts, Ongoing Games (In-character), Finding Players, and Silly Message Board Games called. They'd like a word.

Each of those fora have their own worn-out topics. If I have to read another half-baked class fix in the Homebrew forum, I think my eyes'll bleed. Monk fixes, Fighter fixes, Paladin fixes, Samurai fixes, Wizard fixes... they just keep coming. They tend to come in waves, so you'll see 4 or 5 threads about the same class, & then they'll die out, then the next class fix wave come along. The only thing more dependable are the alternative alignment threads. Or the race tweaks. Or the parrying feat. It's endless...

Every forum has its Topics That Just Won't Die. I chose this forum because of the sheer number of them, & the popularity/universality of these topics.

Lastly, if anyone posts links to definitive threads about each topic, I'll add them to the OP list above. It should prove usefull.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Lastly, if anyone posts links to definitive threads about each topic, I'll add them to the OP list above. It should prove usefull.

We could use the guide in Giacomo's sig.

Also, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130235).

[ErrantX]

"I'm against protesting, but I don't know how to show it". - Mitch Hedburg

I'm a little frustrated by a constant deluge of 'fixes' and such as well. It's just the nature of the beast. It's like complaining about politicians being corrupt. Gamers need to complain, birds gotta fly.

-X

[DabblerWizard]

Although, the perfert irony, this threat may turn out to be the same thing you were ranting about.

This is certainly a nice form of irony. - I'm unhappy with the vacuous, repetitive, space-filling nature of posts, so I'm going to create my own post that makes them stand out even more. I understand this isn't the intention of the topic, but it is a side effect.

I'm also reminded of bureaucracy, with the example of reducing paper usage by filling out an extra form.

On a more serious note, it's likely the case that people enjoy upping their post count, and if repetitive topics come along, they'll happily continue to post their thoughts.

As was said by others, restricting repeat forum topics, might give the sense that this forum isn't willing to accommodate discussions as they appear in the minds of their authors.

On the other hand, maybe a fair topic restricting rule might be: Within a given week (or other time frame), no two topics can have identical themes... Figuring out whether a topic is a repeat, or a legitimate nuance or subtopic within a discussion, would be for moderators to determine.

[Samb]

And they'd be about 4e.

AD&D was the best edition so STFU

Know what I want to protest about? Protest threads.
AKA
-Stop talking about things people want to talk about
-I am a thread Nazi that cannot filter threads I like and don't like due to my ADD.
-Becoming what you hate.
-Stupid question DO exist!
-Saying: "Sigh...... use the search thingy" in as condecesnding tone as possible.
-Saying "Sigh....... please read my post carefully" in as condecesnding tone as possible.
-I'm a veteran to this forum and hate to talk to the unclean newbies because I am 1337!!!!

Please add that to the OP. Thanks

[Tehnar]

I think this is a wrong way to go about such things. If you don't like the said topics, don't view them, and don't post in them. If less people post in them, they will become less popular. Making a thread about it certainly wont stop them.

I for one like those threads.

First, they often tend to offer insight into whats good/bad/broken with a certain class or mechanic. Additionally you find in there broken comboe's that I would never have found myself. I can use that information to build better houserules.

Secondly, these threads tend to get broken down into flamewars fairly quickly. A fresh start helps crystalize certain arguments (well at least until they degenerate into flamewars).

[Pharaoh's Fist]

-Stupid question DO exist!

You can add poor grammar to the list. :smalltongue:

[Samb]

You can add poor grammar to the list. :smalltongue:

Oh I'm sorry, how did that joke go?

"Stupid questions do exist, a--hole"
hehe

[Mushroom Ninja]

I am here to protest the endless wave of go-nowhere, do-nothing threads that are choking this forum. Feel free to add your voice to the chorus of people who are sick & tired of seeing the same half-dozen pop up week after week. Or be avant-guard & postmodern by protesting our protest.

Not to be rude, but, if you find a thread boring and repetitive, why read it? Personally, I've skipped over a monk/fighter/wizard thread or two and not missed much.

[Samb]

Not to be rude, but, if you find a thread boring and repetitive, why read it? Personally, I've skipped over a monk/fighter/wizard thread or two and not missed much.

Obviously because he's owns this forum and it is his duty to smite stupid thread. Alas, they always get risen and become undead threads and he doesn't have enough turn undead thread per days......

I'll post a fix for that in my next thread.

[Saintjebus]

I agree with Mushroom Ninja. There are plenty of threads I don't read because (A. I'm just not interested in the topic or (B. I looked at the thread, decided that I didn't want to get involved. Problem solved.

[kjones]

Someone else brought this up already, but there are two real issues that make these recurrent threads so recurrent. I mean, every forum has its Topics That Just Won't Die, but this board has some features that make it worse.

First, the search function sucks. Full stop. You're better off using Google and "site:". So it's hard to find old threads.

Second, we have pretty strict rules about thread necromancy and off-topic posting, so if you want to talk about something that hasn't specifically come up in a little while, you have to start a new thread.

I'm not saying that these threads that keep popping up aren't obnoxious - but they're a product of the System (TM).

[Optimystik]

Know what I want to protest about? Protest threads.
AKA
-Stop talking about things people want to talk about
-I am a thread Nazi that cannot filter threads I like and don't like due to my ADD.
-Becoming what you hate.
-Stupid question DO exist!
-Saying: "Sigh...... use the search thingy" in as condecesnding tone as possible.
-Saying "Sigh....... please read my post carefully" in as condecesnding tone as possible.
-I'm a veteran to this forum and hate to talk to the unclean newbies because I am 1337!!!!

Please add that to the OP. Thanks

This post deserves the real applause here.

[lesser_minion]

Each of those fora have their own worn-out topics. If I have to read another half-baked class fix in the Homebrew forum, I think my eyes'll bleed. Monk fixes, Fighter fixes, Paladin fixes, Samurai fixes, Wizard fixes... they just keep coming.

My half-baked soulknife fix does nothing to harm the homebrew design forum! You LIE! :smallamused:

And yes, it does exist, it's about the only project I've brought to a playable state, and it's embarrassingly bad. You can read it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104047).

(It's embarrassingly bad because it shouldn't still be breaking rule 3 and rule 5. And it should pass rule 6 on merit, not on me not homebrewing any prestige classes. I'm actually about to go back to it, which is why this comment annoyed me).

[Foryn Gilnith]

The more you think about this, the more it will annoy you. I don't actually think the threads you mention pop up that often, and suspect that there may be some cognitive bias at work here. In my opinion, this thread is just as irritating and meaningless as the things it laments.


The big issue with the search function is that you actually have to use Google's, because waiting two minutes between each search when you mistyped something is kind of difficult.

Also, this is relevant. If there was no restriction on searches we could bash noobies harder. :P

[Jayabalard]

You missed:

You people should stop posting about things that I've already discussed
Aliases

It doesn't matter if you missed out on the discussion the first time around.
Can we stop with the X vs Y threads?
Didn't we discuss this just last week.
The Thread of Protest


The reality is that this forum has a really strict anti-thread necromancy policy, making it almost always safer to start a new thread than to contribute to on that's not on the first page or 2. Unless that changes, you're going to see a steady stream of people coming into start threads about things that have already been discussed.

If you don't want to take part in those discussions, then don't take part in them.

[Brendan]

If we can't talk about petty and inconsequential subjects, than what can we talk about? Important, significant gaming things, like why... ... ... huh, i can't think of anything significant. petty arguements are what makes dnd fun. unnecessary hours spent searching for ways to turn the game on it's head make it worthwhile. I say let the unimportant threads live!

really, though, I say we have folders inside the main area with subjects such as why a class is good/bad, or ways to break the game, or things like that. that way, if you want to just read about how a monk can kill a tarrasque at level one by having unlimited cash, click on gamebreaking. That way, you can screen exactly what you want.

[CockroachTeaParty]

More than the protested threads actually bother me, what really bothers me are the forum regulars who complain about them. Especially in the first one or two posts, posting something snarky and non-helpful to the question(s) at hand, as if they are somehow above said element of the silly game that is their shared hobby. Have you reached some sort of D&D nirvana? Will ignoring or complaining about common thread topics somehow let me see the light?

We all have to start somewhere. Newcomers to the forum, the game, or whatever, will not have heard of many of the terms and concepts thrown about, and instead of searching the forum (likely for a dead thread that they cannot post in, lest they become thread necromancers), they bring up an old topic again.

I fail to see the trouble here. So put me in the post-modern, avant-garde camp, and allow me to protest the protest. As one of the more aged demi-lurkers on these boards, rest assured that I am not bothered by threads concerning common topics. Such topics are common for a reason.

[bosssmiley]

Now I want to see the "wizards are actually crap but they kept it a secret for the past 10 years" topic.

That comes up whenever WOTC make another "herp, derp" business decision that p*sses off a section of their fanbase. Oh, you mean the other wizards. :smallamused:

Airships/Steampunk
Help Me Design My World (I Offer No Content Myself), and
How Would You Stat...?
...are also getting old really quickly.

[Samb]

I fail to see the trouble here. So put me in the post-modern, avant-garde camp, and allow me to protest the protest. As one of the more aged demi-lurkers on these boards, rest assured that I am not bothered by threads concerning common topics. Such topics are common for a reason.
You are not avant-garde or post-modern because I protested the protest already!

How's this for avant-grade? I'm protesting your protest of the protest thread! That's like uber-modern!!!! Blows your mind doesn't it? :O

[ericgrau]

Need a FAQ for something like this, with links to a few random existing threads for each. Even if you think someone needs to see the conflicting opinions on it once, they don't need to see it twice a week. They wouldn't be banned topics so much as "please read the FAQ before posting one of these topics and see if you really really need to". Much like Vaarsuvius' gender.

Yeah, a few pixies will still get through, but it'd at least reduce the clutter.

[Talya]

Yeah, a few pixies will still get through, but it'd at least reduce the clutter.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871070/The_Pixie_Handbook

[Optimystik]

Repeated discussion is specifically allowed here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79726) End of story.

Sadly, this even includes "Didn't we just talk about X last week?" threads.

[The Dark Fiddler]

{Rather intelligent stuff}

The threads themselves showing up every few weeks isn't bad. My problem is when there's another thread started when the first one is still active, which I have seen happen several times in nearly every forum. (Well, Roleplaying, Gaming (Other) and Order of the Stick at least).

[Optimystik]

The threads themselves showing up every few weeks isn't bad. My problem is when there's another thread started when the first one is still active, which I have seen happen several times in nearly every forum. (Well, Roleplaying, Gaming (Other) and Order of the Stick at least).

The link I posted gives the official line on what to do with duplicate topics. (It doesn't cover "Protest Threads," presumably because the mods don't find them amusing.)

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: I am sick and tired of people saying that everyone is sick and tired, I certainly am not, and I am sick and tired of people saying that I am.

But also, if a thread is allowed under the rules, it's allowed. Please don't post to tell others what to do.