I don't understand why the Gate isn't there.

[zoombini]

Apologies if this question has been brought up before, but I wasn't able to find it.

Back in strip 276 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), it says they found 5 separate snarls (the lower right one of which is in a desert) and then sealed them with gates. And we've seen nothing to assume that the Gates can be moved (since Soon built a tall tower to contain his). Which means Girard's gate has to be where they left it. So are we saying that Soon paid no attention at all as to where they sealed the gate and would believe Girard's d100 determined coordinates? I know they say that the various countrys' borders are more fluid than WD40, but you'd think Soon would have glanced at a map and had a rough idea of where the gate was. Girard seems to be assuming Soon is a bit of a moron here. . .

[Sanguine]

First off they found five rifts there's only one Snarl(that we know of).

Secondly Knowledge Geography and Survival are not Paladin Class Skills so we can assume Soon knows jack squat about coordinates and the like so even if he knew roughly where the gate was he wouldn't know the coordinates were incorrect.

Finally Girard seems to imply that Soon didn't bother at all with maps leaving all of that to Girard.

[Meg]

One place in a huge, featureless desert looks pretty much identical to every other place in a huge featureless desert. This question has been asked to death, so sorry if I seem a little rude.

[DBJack]

It's the biggest desert in the world. If you were taken to a specific point in say, the Sahara by your guide without knowing you'd have to remember where it was, and then many years later you need to find that same spot with a map made by the guide, you'd take the map whether or not you trust him. Navigation is hard, especially in a desert when you didn't pay attention to coordinates when you were there earlier

[SoC175]

And we've seen nothing to assume that the Gates can be moved (since Soon built a tall tower to contain his). Actually from this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) it looks like the gate could be easily moved.

Note how the throne has an empty place where the sapphire is supposed to be and how Soon hands over the sapphire containing the gate

[Ancalagon]

Actually from this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) it looks like the gate could be easily moved.

In fact, the gates cannot be easily moved.

SOD-Spoiler:
Moving the gates is the entire point of Redcloaks plan.

[SoC175]

In fact, the gates cannot be easily moved.

SOD-Spoiler:
Moving the gates is the entire point of Redcloaks plan. Yet Soon apparently easily moves the saphire. Otherwise a immobile, unmoveable saphire hanging in the air before the throne would have caused questions

Maybe the DO didn't know that one of the gate's was so mobile, since at least two other gates were obviously immobile.

[derfenrirwolv]

Its a dessert. If you're off by a little bit when you start walking, you'll be off by a LOT when you end. Most people can't read a trail map for hiking out in woods with a lot of topography, VERY few people can navigate a trackless, featureless waste. I did the calculations on another thread, but basically if soon is off by a mere 3 degrees when he starts walking, and walks for 12 days, he'll be 9 miles away from the gate, forcing him to search for longer than he'll live to look for it because being of by 9 miles means you have 81 square miles of dessert to search

[Shale]

But later, Hinjo says that the entire throne room was built around that sapphire. I think that overrides a crayon flashback.

[Ancalagon]

Yet Soon apparently easily moves the saphire. Otherwise a immobile, unmoveable saphire hanging in the air before the throne would have caused questions

Err, what?

The rift in that place was a very small one high in the sky - and they sealed it with a sapphire and build the throne and entire *tower* around that.

[rewinn]

Err, what?

The rift in that place was a very small one high in the sky - and they sealed it with a sapphire and build the throne and entire *tower* around that.

And ... this is just a detail ... they could easily have temporarily concealed the sapphire from the tower builders by means of an illusion. Not that Gerard would've helped but Soon had plenty of allies; some members of the Sapphire Guard appear to have been magic-users.

[SoC175]

Err, what?

The rift in that place was a very small one high in the sky - and they sealed it with a sapphire and build the throne and entire *tower* around that.
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) you see Soon handing over the saphire. So either the saphire was moveable and Soon just brought it to his successor or the saphire was unmoveable and hanging there right before the throne the whole time until someone decided to move the throne to incorporate the saphire.

[Asta Kask]

Its a dessert.

So where's the ice cream?

Oh, :thog: ate it.

[Shale]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) you see Soon handing over the saphire. So either the saphire was moveable and Soon just brought it to his successor or the saphire was unmoveable and hanging there right before the throne the whole time until someone decided to move the throne to incorporate the saphire.

And here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html) we have Hinjo saying that the sapphire was there before even the castle. Which tdo you trust more, the Guard's records or crayon drawings?

[SoC175]

And here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html) we have Hinjo saying that the sapphire was there before even the castle. Which tdo you trust more, the Guard's records or crayon drawings? The crayon drawing are Shojo reciting from these very records. So the LG guys managed to screw up their bookkeeping

[bluewind95]

The crayon drawing might not be historically accurate. He transferred the command of the Sapphire Guard. But that command is abstract. How do you represent it in a drawing? You replace it by the sapphire itself. Just for that drawing. Doesn't really tell us how movable it is. It's just there to represent what was happening.

[Scarlet Knight]

Oh, as others have suggested, the gate is there, and Girard is lying to lead them elsewhere as part of his defense.

As it has been said, Girard is an illusionist , a man who lives by deception. And you can always trust a dishonest man to be dishonest...

:smallwink:

[veti]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) you see Soon handing over the saphire. So either the saphire was moveable and Soon just brought it to his successor or the saphire was unmoveable and hanging there right before the throne the whole time until someone decided to move the throne to incorporate the saphire.

Or the sapphire, being small and easily portable, can be moved small distances, but not too far and not for too long. Moving it is like tugging at the edges of the rift, which hold it like a mystical bungee cord.

I'm not saying it's right, it's just a hypothesis that explains all the observed evidence...

[Mystic Muse]

you can always trust a dishonest man to be dishonest. honestly, it's the honest ones you want to look out for. you never know when they're going to do something incredibly....stupid

fixed it for you. (I love that movie)

[magic9mushroom]

Or the sapphire, being small and easily portable, can be moved small distances, but not too far and not for too long. Moving it is like tugging at the edges of the rift, which hold it like a mystical bungee cord.

I'm not saying it's right, it's just a hypothesis that explains all the observed evidence...

I think this is correct, and it's not contradicted by what Hinjo said. The gates can be moved, but move them too far and they stop locking the rift.

[slayerx]

And here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html) we have Hinjo saying that the sapphire was there before even the castle. Which tdo you trust more, the Guard's records or crayon drawings?

Or third option, it's a continuity error on the Giant's part

[The Extinguisher]

Or it could simply be a symbolic crayon drawing about passing leadership.

[NerfTW]

*edit* I just combined two seperate threads into one reply! :smalltongue:

[Nimrod's Son]

The rifts were sealed long before the gates were put in place to keep them sealed. Just because Soon handed over a sapphire to Shojo's father doesn't mean that the sapphire contained the rift. The rift itself was above the throne the whole time. The sapphire is merely a lock.

[derfenrirwolv]

Lets say everything is in soon's favor.

The party walked to the gate rather than teleport

The party had a well known location like sands edge

The direction was relatively westward (the easiest direction to tell) for 12 days (360 miles)

Lets say soon is pretty sharp and guesses the walking direction within 3 degrees.

After 12 days of travel, that would put soon almost 90 miles away from the gate.

Now since soon wouldn't know what direction he was off by, he'd have to search over an 8 THOUSAND square mile radius before finding it.

thats 8,553,600 squares to search, at a minute a peice, or 9 years 8 months of 1 person searching 24 7.

[Souhiro]

Yeah... but Soon had The Shappire Guard.

<Soon> Okay, let's do it quick. Everyone, deploy and SEARCH!!
<Paladin #1, next to the gate> Wait, I think I failed a spot check!
<Paladin #2> Me too!
<Snarl> Hey, I'm here!

[salinan]

Or the sapphire, being small and easily portable, can be moved small distances, but not too far and not for too long. Moving it is like tugging at the edges of the rift, which hold it like a mystical bungee cord.

I'm not saying it's right, it's just a hypothesis that explains all the observed evidence...
In 411 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html) Roy asks whether the sapphire can be moved, and Hinjo part answers. Sounds like it can be moved, but it's dangerous.

[Kobold-Bard]

SoD:
The ablity to move the Gates is the whole reason Redcloak recruited Xykon. It is the entire point of Team Evil's plan. Therefore the Gates can't be moved, otherwise the main villains are pointless.

@411: The Sapphire could be moved, but doing so would break it's containment magic, and the rift would just sit there open. It can be moved, but it REALLY shouldn't be.

[SoC175]

SoD:
The ablity to move the Gates is the whole reason Redcloak recruited Xykon. It is the entire point of Team Evil's plan. Therefore the Gates can't be moved, otherwise the main villains are pointless.
That might be true for the large gate of Lirian, but the saphire gate is much smaller. Note that the Dark One didn't know of any other gates beside Lirian's. That was the rift the goblin cleric accidently discovered and that was the rift whose location he gave to the wearer of the Crimson Mantle. Redcloak went frantic once this gate was destroyed as he thought this was the only gate in existence. Without Xykon he wouldn't have known that there are other gates.

I think that slayerx got it right: Continuity error of the Giant

[Trixie]

And ... this is just a detail ... they could easily have temporarily concealed the sapphire from the tower builders by means of an illusion. Not that Gerard would've helped but Soon had plenty of allies; some members of the Sapphire Guard appear to have been magic-users.

Except the comics outrightly stated that gates could be created by epic casters only, and indeed, it was Dorukan/Lirian pair that build all 5 of them, before they had that final dispute.

[Lissou]

I see it as a symbol of transferring power. We saw the ceremony for Hinjo and the sapphire wasn't involved in it at all.

[SoC175]

Except the comics outrightly stated that gates could be created by epic casters only, and indeed, it was Dorukan/Lirian pair that build all 5 of them, before they had that final dispute. Also even an invisible spahire hovering a few feet before the throne would have raised questions the first time someone accidently hit his knee against it :smallbiggrin:

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Ok, here's my analysis:

-We know Girard is a pretty clever guy. Maybe not a genious as Dorukan, but sure he's smart. We also know that he's an illusionist, so he likes tricks and bluffs.

-We do know Soon associated with him for a long time to protect the gates. So they would know each other with some degree of precision.

-Ok, Girard hates Soon, I don't want to guess the exacts reasons, but he does. He put a blasting trap where the gate was supposed to be, as a revenge.

-Girard said that it was a 90% chance of Soon or his paladin lackeys to be in there looking for the gate. Obviously he didn't want the gate to be found by Soon and he wanted a revenge, so what happened is quite acceptable for the situation.

-Girard surely knew that there was a high chance of Soon not being killed in the trap. That's why he also said that the gate was not there. He knew Soon too much. So the best trick here is to fool Soon telling him that the gate wasn't there when it actually is. But it's a 90% chance of Soon coming to the gate.

-That leaves us with a 10% chance of not being Soon or his paladins the ones who search the gate. Of course Girard had this is mind. A 10% is a big chance, and must be taken seriously. What is the best way to fool that unknown enemy? Just bluffing them with a "true lie". That unknown enemy would surely know that Soon and Girard were mad at each other, so for them it would be a rather reasonable reaction, trying to blow Soon up, and hiding the gate in other place. But of course, Girard didn't want that enemies to control the gate, so hiding the gate "at sight" was the best option.

As you see, Girard is a pretty clever bastard. With one card movement, he can take revenge of Soon, and also hide the gate to his enemies.

So I think the gate is actually around there.

That's my two cents! :smallbiggrin:

[Mariel Dragon]

Yeah... but Soon had The Shappire Guard.

<Soon> Okay, let's do it quick. Everyone, deploy and SEARCH!!
<Paladin #1, next to the gate> Wait, I think I failed a spot check!
<Paladin #2> Me too!
<Snarl> Hey, I'm here!
:mitd: Wait, what gate?

[Jayabalard]

One place in a huge, featureless desert looks pretty much identical to every other place in a huge featureless desert.This question has been asked to death, so sorry if I seem a little rude.You know, if you had left out the second sentence, then you wouldn't have come across as rude at all.