How did they survive?

[Gilthans]

I'm sorry if this has been brought up, couldn't find it anywhere.

But I don't get it.
How the hell did Elan, V and Haley survive that blast?

I mean, I assume Girard had truthfully intended for the trap to plausibly kill Soon. Soon was a high level paladin, aged or otherwise, with very high hit points total.
Roy I can see surviving this, given reasonable rolls. Haley - maybe, with a good save and low damage rolls. Elan might have saved and have been very, very lucky. But V?? With her abysmal HP score, and fairly low reflex saves, could've survived a trap meant for an extremely high level paladin??

How can that be?

[Shale]

To repost the most recent time I've addressed this....


Plot armor. In a comic where a warhorse falling on your head is fixed with two healing potions and a mid-level wizard survives a pair of full meteor swarms to the face, now this is an issue?

[veti]

I'm sorry if this has been brought up, couldn't find it anywhere.

But I don't get it.
How the hell did Elan, V and Haley survive that blast?

I mean, I assume Girard had truthfully intended for the trap to plausibly kill Soon.

And that would be where the mistake comes in. The trap wasn't supposed to kill anyone.

Personally I now think the spell was like one of those you get in Final Fantasy that inflicts damage proportional to your current hit points (say, half or three quarters of your current total). So it's guaranteed to hurt, but not kill, anyone.

The explosion wasn't a death trap, it was just rather emphatic punctuation to the message. Like saying "Drop dead" and giving the finger. But magically.

[martinkou]

I'm sorry if this has been brought up, couldn't find it anywhere.

But I don't get it.
How the hell did Elan, V and Haley survive that blast?

I mean, I assume Girard had truthfully intended for the trap to plausibly kill Soon. Soon was a high level paladin, aged or otherwise, with very high hit points total.
Roy I can see surviving this, given reasonable rolls. Haley - maybe, with a good save and low damage rolls. Elan might have saved and have been very, very lucky. But V?? With her abysmal HP score, and fairly low reflex saves, could've survived a trap meant for an extremely high level paladin??

How can that be?

Coz V, is the wizard version of Chuck Norris.

If you rolled a five and V rolled a five, V has rolled higher than you!

When the Boogyman goes to sleep every night, he checks his closet for V's Explosive Runes.

V doesn't read scrolls, he stares scrolls down until they run and hide in his spellbook.

There's no theory of everything. Physics is just a list of laws that V didn't tell to shut up and sit down.

V does not sleep, he trances.

There's no sexuality behind V's body, it's another Explosive Rune.

V doesn't wear a watch, he casts Time Stop.

[NerfTW]

Actually, Shale, Rich has always tried to follow actual rules. V had buffs protecting him from those meteor swarms.

As for the explosion, clearly it wasn't intended to actually kill Soon. Maybe it was to kill any troops with him, or to weaken him for a second attack, or even just to throw people off the trail by assuming there was no alliance anymore. (Lirian seems to act as though Soon is still an ally in SoD)

[Kish]

Actually, Shale, Rich has always tried to follow actual rules. V had buffs protecting him from those meteor swarms.
Including the Meteor Swarm that hit unspliced Vaarsuvius after Xykon's Superb Dispelling? I find that unlikely.

[ZeroNumerous]

Including the Meteor Swarm that hit unspliced Vaarsuvius after Xykon's Superb Dispelling? I find that unlikely.

This is the only meteor swarm even close to V post-dispel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html). And even then, none of them exploded.

[SaintRidley]

Since they're the protagonists they made their saves and damage dice came up as 1s anyway. Which is to say we have no idea whether or not this would kill Soon or not because we saw the worst possible case scenario for the spell.

Now, people have floated the idea of an Epic Chaos Hammer sort of spell.

This would do decent damage to lawfuls, half of that to non-lawfuls who aren't chaotic, and nil to chaotics.

Haley and Elan are quite likely Chaotic Good. No effect.

Will save success for V would mean only half of what Roy gets (quarter damage overall). V has good will saves, so we can reasonably expect that a success would be probable.

Roy is Lawful Good. Roy is also a straight fighter, meaning that despite his rather good Wisdom score he still doesn't have the best Will save. Meaning he probably took a decent amount of dice (even though they came up as 1s).

Make it an Epic Shadow Chaos Hammer of some sort and you add another will save which makes it even more likely that V escapes with even less than a quarter damage while Roy either takes whatever he did or a bit less.


It's entirely possible to have a spell that the Order could survive that Soon wouldn't due to age penalties and plot deciding not to roll 1s for him if it were him in their place.

[good_lookin_gus]

Plot Armor is integral to fantasy roleplaying. Hit Points? Plot Armor. Saving Throws? Plot Armor. It still doesn't explain how an explosion failed to kill some people who were considerably weaker than the intended target. There are some decent explainations in the main thread. I think the top three are:
1. Girad was stupid.
2. He researched a Chaos Hammer type evocation that targets alignment.
3. He understood that it's really hard to one-shot an epic palladin with direct damage and planned on subsequently teleporting in to finish the job and/or gloat.

They're not mutually exclusive either, so you don't need to pick a favorite.

[rainbowjo]

I am of the opinion that the explosion only effected Lawful people.

[Sanraal]

Haley's a Thief with high Evasion. So it figures.
As for Elan the answer's HERE. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html) First strip, bottom-middle picture.
I'm still not sure 'bout V though...

[TheWerdna]

Well it may be one of those kind of explosions that does more damage the closer you are to the center. Haley and Elan started to run, so they took less damage. V had fly on, so he/she was probably able to fly far enough away to take less damage.

Also, lets say the explosion did 20d6 with a advrage of 70 dmg. Alot of the rolls could have been 1s doing segnifently less damage.

Edit: A example of a ability doing less dmg based on range can be found it the Complete Divine on pg 96. The Dawrstar is a magical mace that if broken explodes, doing 200dmg to everything withing 10 feet, 150dmg within 20, and 100dmg within 30 fett

[Somewhere]

Plot Armour

And it's a relative of the strip 119 explosion

Edit: Extra emphasis on the plot armour. It doesn't have to be reasonable. It just has to be possible. If the story needs something with odds of 1 in a googol, then by gods, it will be nailed.

[NerfTW]

Plot armor is the realm of hacks and people who can't write worth a damn.

If he needed "plot armor", he would have just NOT had the explosion. Chances are Girard either didn't intend for it to be a killing blow, or Soon was not epic last time he met.


"Plot armor" is another word for "plot hole", and no real writer uses it.

[Lvl45DM!]

George Lucas used it.

[ZeroNumerous]

George Lucas used it.


"Plot armor" is another word for "plot hole", and no real writer uses it.

Emphasis mine. Sure, it's a No True Scotsman argument, but I'm entirely willing to resort to that when it comes to George Lucas.

[Jan Mattys]

Plot armor is the realm of hacks and people who can't write worth a damn.

If he needed "plot armor", he would have just NOT had the explosion. Chances are Girard either didn't intend for it to be a killing blow, or Soon was not epic last time he met.


"Plot armor" is another word for "plot hole", and no real writer uses it.

I pity your suspension of disbelief inability.
I feel sorry for you.

[The Extinguisher]

I pity your suspension of disbelief inability.
I feel sorry for you.

Wait, how is trying to find an in story reason to why the survived an inability to suspend disbelief whereas just assuming "oh yeah, they're the main characters they can't die" is suspended disbelief.

[Superglucose]

Plot armor is the realm of hacks and people who can't write worth a damn.

Or comedy, parody, and satire.

And oh look! Order of the Stick is a humor comic!

You're pretty judgmental, what have you published?

[Souhiro]

Well, Plot armor is INDEED part of the GMs manual. You know the example, the party is in their ship trying to infiltrate into the big bad guys island. Someone makes a navigation check... and rolls an 1. Wow, critical fail. The ship stomps with the same iceberg as the Titanic, the ship sinks and everyone is dead, go home kids, elapsed time of game : 8 minutes.
Would you like to roll any new characters?


So, there isn't any rape or violation of any rules. Plot Armor IS there

[Asta Kask]

Well, Plot armor is INDEED part of the GMs manual. You know the example, the party is in their ship trying to infiltrate into the big bad guys island. Someone makes a navigation check... and rolls an 1. Wow, critical fail. The ship stomps with the same iceberg as the Titanic, the ship sinks and everyone is dead, go home kids, elapsed time of game : 8 minutes.
Would you like to roll any new characters?

Yes, but it's a poor GM who puts in a trap that would necessitate plot armor. Perhaps it was a shadow blast and they made their saving throws? It would fit the "illusionist" thing and I believe shadow evocation do only 20% damage if they are seen through.

Or perhaps it not so much a plot hole as a plot point.

[King of Nowhere]

I prefer the explanation that they started running before the explosion, thus taking less damage the farther they were from the explosion (like, you know, a real explosion).
Suspension of disbelief doesn't mean "they're the main character, they cannot die", it means (in this case) "they survived, let's find and accept a reasonable explanation to that". Distance sems perfectly reasonable.
Even the idea that Girard intended the blast as a magical slap to the face rather than a killing blow makes sense.

[Turkish Delight]

Yes, but it's a poor GM who puts in a trap that would necessitate plot armor.

Yep. Really, this whole debate could have easily been avoided if Girard had simply not implied so strongly he was trying to kill Soon in his message. If it were just an add-injury-to-insult situation, a middle finger in explosive form rather than (apparently) an attempted homicide, not only would Girard not come across so..ummm...evil, but we also would be able to explain why they all walked away with only minor scratches from a spell meant to take out an Epic Paladin.

Ah well. Maybe it'll become more clear what was intended later.

[Hyoumu Yau]

Including the Meteor Swarm that hit unspliced Vaarsuvius after Xykon's Superb Dispelling? I find that unlikely.

It appears to me that this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html) Meteor Swarm did not hit V. O-Chul dropped him while evading the spell, and thats the only reason for his "That hurts"- facial expression.

[Zeful]

Wait, how is trying to find an in story reason to why the survived an inability to suspend disbelief whereas just assuming "oh yeah, they're the main characters they can't die" is suspended disbelief.

Because you are looking for answers. Suspension of Disbelief is when you ignore things that make no sense for the sake of narrative. By asking how V and Elan and Haley survived, you are not suspending disbelief.

[Lamech]

I mean, I assume Girard had truthfully intended for the trap to plausibly kill Soon.
You assume the admitted liar who is protecting his gate with deception was truthful? If I had to guess here is the flaw in your reasoning.
Another possiblity is that being good Girard intended the trap to kill Soon, and only Soon and not kill any other paladins he brought along with him. I would find it extremely questionable if Girard has become delusional enough to support killing groups of paladins.

[Zeful]

You assume the admitted liar who is protecting his gate with deception was truthful? If I had to guess here is the flaw in your reasoning.
Another possiblity is that being good Girard intended the trap to kill Soon, and only Soon and not kill any other paladins he brought along with him. I would find it extremely questionable if Girard has become delusional enough to support killing groups of paladins.

Fascist. Paladin. Lackeys. Girard does not see Paladins under Soon as Good. At all. So he as no problems setting a trap to kill them.

Further the simplest explanation for the entire proceeding is: The blast was not intended to kill Soon, merely weaken/demoralize him so that Girard, under the shroud of his EPIC ILLUSIONS, could kill Soon himself.

[Trixie]

I pity your suspension of disbelief inability.
I feel sorry for you.

Sooo... A secret here - accepting any nonsense as long as dilettante who wrote it will claim things like 'plot armor' and 'rule of cool' despite them not being in any way related to the case - you know what it was called?

A 'low standard', not 'suspension of disbelief'.

And, frankly, it is insulting (to a good writer, which is the case here) who tries to maintain credibility and coherence of his world to call something reasonable which is not obvious now, but will be explained later by terms such as 'plot armor'. It means (basically) that you equal him with talentless hacks who need to use such things.

[Mant]

Because you are looking for answers. Suspension of Disbelief is when you ignore things that make no sense for the sake of narrative. By asking how V and Elan and Haley survived, you are not suspending disbelief.

Just no. Suspension of disbelief is when you put apart what you know of the world to better accept some incredible/unacceptable things from a film or comic or whatever.
You dont "suspend disbelief" to give the green light to something which fails at his own rules.

Example: there's an UFO floating around which moves by using oxygen. Its pretty clearly incredible, but you use suspension of disbelief because, you know, FICTIONAL. Inside the fictional world, it's entirely possible something like that to exist.

The UFO runs out of oxygen, yet it still continues to float. You don't use suspension of disbelief to accept this, because it FAILS AT ITS OWN RULES.
Same way here.

[Nerdanel]

One possibility is that Girard was being sneaky and intentionally made the explosion flashy and weak, so that...

...innocents wouldn't get harmed enough to kill them, villains would be lured into a false sense of security regarding Girard's intelligence and capabilities, and Soon would get embarrassed for falling into what could have been a deadly trap if Girard hadn't pulled punches.

[Leolo]

Elan and Haley could have been escaped via Evasion. I find it interesting that Durkon is only healing V and Roy.

How V could survive? It could be by using a spell (Elan and Haley had time to run away, too) or simple luck.

[Kish]

It appears to me that this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html) Meteor Swarm did not hit V.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/meteorSwarm.htm That's four pretty small 40-foot radiuses, then.

One possibility is that Girard was being sneaky and intentionally made the explosion flashy and weak, so that...

...innocents wouldn't get harmed enough to kill them, villains would be lured into a false sense of security regarding Girard's intelligence and capabilities, and Soon would get embarrassed for falling into what could have been a deadly trap if Girard hadn't pulled punches.

Roy looked pretty battered before Durkon healed him. An explosion capable of significantly harming a level ~14 fighter has a good chance of being deadly to a level 5 paladin.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Easy. Girard wanted Soon to survive the blast. It's all a part of a big bluff and a revenge. Two birds in a shot. See my analysis here http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136581&page=2

[Somewhere]

Strip 119 explosion. Destroyed a mountain. Zero scratches on Elan and Roy. What's the non-Plot Armour explanation for that?

[Jackel]

Strip 119 explosion. Destroyed a mountain. Zero scratches on Elan and Roy. What's the non-Plot Armour explanation for that?

That wasn't plot armor, as Elan pointed out, it was theatrics. Bards get that ability you know.

[Somewhere]

Same thing

[Zeful]

Just no. Suspension of disbelief is when you put apart what you know of the world to better accept some incredible/unacceptable things from a film or comic or whatever.
You dont "suspend disbelief" to give the green light to something which fails at his own rules.

Example: there's an UFO floating around which moves by using oxygen. Its pretty clearly incredible, but you use suspension of disbelief because, you know, FICTIONAL. Inside the fictional world, it's entirely possible something like that to exist.

The UFO runs out of oxygen, yet it still continues to float. You don't use suspension of disbelief to accept this, because it FAILS AT ITS OWN RULES.
Same way here.

And how does this situation fail by it's own rules? How much do we actually know about this situation?

[good_lookin_gus]

Because you are looking for answers. Suspension of Disbelief is when you ignore things that make no sense for the sake of narrative. By asking how V and Elan and Haley survived, you are not suspending disbelief.

Well, isn't that better?



http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/meteorSwarm.htm That's four pretty small 40-foot radiuses, then.

It looks like there were three potions lifted from Jirix, with only two going to O'chul. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) Mind you, these came from a low level guy who spends a lot of time around Xykon. A Protection from Energy would not be unwise. I can't access d20srd.org at work, but I'm pretty sure that a 5th level PfE would allow V to absorb 60 points of fire damage. Sure, it's a stretch; but can you rule it out?


Same thing

No it's not. First of all, it's not even critical to the plot.

[TheSummoner]

Strip 119 explosion. Destroyed a mountain. Zero scratches on Elan and Roy. What's the non-Plot Armour explanation for that?

They were further from the center of the blast. The gate was deep in the mountain and they had already made it outside before the explosion went off.

Plot armor is for weak authors. Rich is MUCH better than that. There has to be some explanation for why the blast intended to be able to kill an epic paladin couldn't even kill a mid leveled wizard. The most likely one seems to be it was a bluff on Girard's part.

[Gilthans]

Chaos Hammer is by far my favorite explanation so far. Roy seems to be the only one who was sent flying, and him and V the only one that Durkon healed. Roy is known to be lawful; V is assumed to be neutral. And setting a trap for a Paladin(s) that works only on lawful characters seems like a pretty reasonable course of action to me.
Roy having survived doesn't rule out Soon being able to die from the explosion. If I'm not mistaken - fighters have better HP than paladins.


About the plot armor:
NO DUH! Obviously I don't want them to die. Obviously neither did Rich. But citing plot armor as a reason is just stupid. Plot armor is a last-resort tool for authors who wrote themselves into a corner. Rich decided he wanted an explosion, and he wanted it to be deadly to Soon, and yet not deadly to the OOTS. You think he'd use plot armor for that? Instaed of, oh-I-don't-know, making most of the OOTS NOT THERE, or using no explosion at all?

Also about suspension of disbelief: the point about it is that you don't want to push the readers' suspension of disbelief. When things get too unplausible - that suspension will be lost and you lose hold of your readers. So yeah, I could accept that the Redmountain explosion didn't hurt them because Elan want a theatrical ending, even though its a bit of a stretch that they stood at exactly the right point and jumped at exactly the right time (not very plausible, but possible). An explosion, I hasten to add, which happened all the way across the emergency exit and wasn't meant to kill anything - just blow up the gate.

But this is something different - no explanation is given for how they survived an explosion that was reportedly supposed to kill an epic level paladin, even though by all accounts they should've died.
I knew there must be some way to explain it - I'm just not sufficiently familiar with D&D and not enough creative to think of solutions like those brought up. Now that I can think of a way for this to happen - Girard specially researching a special, lawful-only explosion - I can let this slide in peace, even if its not all that plausible.

[Somewhere]

Plot armour: For the sake of narrative, characters are unharmed by something that really should've had some effect on them

Theatrics: For the sake of narrative, characters are unharmed by something that really should've had some effect on them

The only difference between the two is peoples' reactions to the terms.

Edit: Another example that strikes me as plot armour. Roy punching Xykon's skull off and tossing him into the gate back at Durokan's (spelling?) tower. The party should've wiped there. But then the story would be over.

Also; force 1's out of all the die for the explosion. Force a natural 20 on save. Plot armour violates probability here, but no system rules are broken.

[rewinn]

How V could survive? It could be by using a spell (Elan and Haley had time to run away, too) or simple luck.

A wizard of V's level might be expected to have any number of protective devices and spells running constantly. Overland Flight every day for starters ... not strictly speaking a protective spell but reasonably likely to let V flee the blast center quickly and also cut down on damage from debris (since the relative velocity of V and debris would be reduced.)

Add in a few rings of protection and the equivalent daily Shield Spell (enhanced for duration) at the very least, for the prudently paranoid wizard.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

I think we need some kind of Law of Wile E. Coyote here -- cartoon physics apply to this situation, IMO. That is, the bigger the explosion, the farther the character is thrown, but they always land on something soft (like a flumph).

Sort of like you can run Wile E. over with a steamroller and he'll peel himself up and eventually reinflate ;) ....

[good_lookin_gus]

Plot armour: For the sake of narrative, characters are unharmed by something that really should've had some effect on them

Theatrics: For the sake of narrative, characters are unharmed by something that really should've had some effect on them

The only difference between the two is peoples' reactions to the terms.


You forgot to cite the source of those definitions. For all we know, you just made them up yourself.

[Setra]

The difference is simple. Plot Armor is when the author makes a mistake and has a character survive because he is needed later. Theatrics is when the author intends for a character to survive.

If you take theatrics too far, it becomes plot armor.

Indiana Jones surviving being dragged by a truck is theatrics.

Indiana Jones surviving a nuke is plot armor.

[TheSummoner]

The big difference is Theatrics might push your willing suspension of disbelief slightly, but you're willing to work with it. Plot Holes Armor snaps your willing suspension if disbelief in half like a dry twig.

[Bibliomancer]

Theatrics: For the sake of narrative, characters are unharmed by something that really should've had some effect on them.

I would dispute this definition, given that your primary source of evidence (the mountain exploding) is not valid. The mountain was destoryed because it was in the radius of the explosion, and by jumping, Elan and Roy put themselves that crucial 10-20 feet beyond the radius (which was probably carefully calibrated to destroy the mountain with the minimum amount of power, given that it was created by an epic-level wizard [Intelligence score > 30). Elan and Roy would have been jhurt by the fall, except for the fact that they landed on the flumphs, who had previously been established as a running joke. Besides, since they had been healed, the fall may well have not killed them.

A better definition for theatrics (in this comic) might be:

For the sake of amusement, characters are unharmed by something that they would have been able to escape from anyways but choose to remain within the outermost perimeter of the field of danger.

[Setra]

I think it's possible that the epicenter of the blast was covered by sand over time, thus doing less damage than it may have normally.

Though that's unlikely, given that the illusion didn't seem to have any height problems. I was just throwing the idea out there.

[derfenrirwolv]

1) the explosion was weak. It was more a middle finger at soon than an actual attempt to kill him

2) the explosion did half damage to send someone up, and let them take the other half in falling damage on the way down. Soon wouldn't have a way to counter this, but V was flying and cast feather fall on elan and haley. Assuming haley didn't just evade.

[martinkou]

The difference is simple. Plot Armor is when the author makes a mistake and has a character survive because he is needed later. Theatrics is when the author intends for a character to survive.

If you take theatrics too far, it becomes plot armor.

Indiana Jones surviving being dragged by a truck is theatrics.

Indiana Jones surviving a nuke is plot armor.

How about Kenny surviving "Oh my God, they killed Kenny! You bastards!" every episode? :smallbiggrin:

There's even one episode where Kenny was supposed to have "finally died" but he reappeared later anyway.

[factotum]

How about Kenny surviving "Oh my God, they killed Kenny! You bastards!" every episode? :smallbiggrin:


That's more of a running gag. Besides, they never refer to those deaths in subsequent episodes...it's like it's a new Kenny each time!

[Zeitgeist]

I think there's entirely too much focus here on whether or not it's "plot armor" or if there's a mechanic behind it. It's very drifted from the original topic.

The premise of this thread assumes that Rich didn't use such a poor technique. Just to elaborate, Rich hasn't been known to produce low-grade excuses for situations. Remember, this is a guy who takes the rules somewhat seriously. Does anybody here remember when he wrote out the second Miko battle, because people wanted to know how the Order still lost despite weather conditions being normal? He thought things through, he doesn't just write stuff blindly and just say "plot armor" afterwords.

When something happens in OotS, it's almost always within normal probability and boundaries of D&D rules. The only exceptions are when it's for the purpose of a joke, which, while zany, is acceptable, and funny. We expect that kind of humor in this comic.

This situation, however, was not for the sole purpose of the joke. Let's take a look at what's obvious.

Girard clearly intended to kill Soon. After all he said, and with a seemingly confident statement about correcting the error of Soon not being dead, killing Soon was his intent. Whether or not he planned on the blast killing him, or weakening him, or leaving other people less harmed, but there are two things we can be sure of: Girard wanted Soon dead, and the explosion is a means to that end.

So the question is, how did it not kill at least one of the order, when it was intended to kill an epic paladin? There are a number of different ways, I'm sure, and I think that was the author's intent in this thread.

Hint: The answer is not "plot armor". Rich has no reputation for using that garbage.

[Fragenstein]

Hint: The answer is not "plot armor". Rich has no reputation for using that garbage.

Unfortunately, you're dealing with a crowd that thinks TV Tropes are actual guidelines on how characters should act. Good luck with teaching them that mindless clichés do not make for superior writing.

[Shale]

What, did it look like I was trying to compliment the comic for using it? I freaking love OotS, but internal consistency on what is and is not a lethal injury isn't why.

[good_lookin_gus]

What, did it look like I was trying to compliment the comic for using it? I freaking love OotS, but internal consistency on what is and is not a lethal injury isn't why.

None of us know how they survived, but most of us are reluctant to accept "bad writing" as an explanation.

[Leolo]

If I'm not mistaken - fighters have better HP than paladins.


No, they both have the same HP.

[jidasfire]

Maybe Roy simply took the brunt of the damage for everyone else. After all, he was the most hurt, and he went flying the farthest. Given that he has turned over somewhat a new leaf as far as being considerate to his teammates, I don't find this to be particularly absurd. Haley evaded, maybe grabbed Elan as she did so, and V got scratched up, but not so bad as s/he would have had Roy not taken most of it.

There. Now isn't that easier than saying Plot Armor over and over again?

[Zeitgeist]

Here's my theory:

They all ran/flew. Some further than others. Distance = less damage.

Simply put, Girard figured (possibly accurately) that Soon would not flee in fear for his life, he'd just stand there, or possibly he'd be too slow of thought to figure out that he was about to be exploded. And being the stubborn Paladin that he may be, Soon may well have just stood there, fuming at Girard's lie. It also may have done bonus damage to lawful (which for all I can tell, is only Roy, and he's the most likely to survive).

[Leolo]

It is also possible that Girard is simple not able to kill Soon with one blast.

But he is thinking it would be sufficient. After all that we have seen he is not someone who does correct assumptions.

[Kish]

No, they both have the same HP.
They both have the same hit dice, but with the same rolls, or same number of points for point buy, and the same level of concern for optimization, the fighter will generally have higher Constitution than the paladin (who will have higher Wisdom and Charisma than the fighter).

[Kumo]

That's more of a running gag. Besides, they never refer to those deaths in subsequent episodes...it's like it's a new Kenny each time!

They refer to those deaths all the time >.>

"Ah come on, Kenny dies all the time!!"
*kenny dies by having his faced dragged along the pavement* "Ok who didn't see that coming?"
"Come on, Kenny! Kyle might die!" *Kenny looks pissed* "He's my friend and he could die" *Kenny: are you kidding me?!* *sob* *Kenny commits suicide by truck and he doesn't even notice*

And they actually DID do a thing where Kenny is apprently replaced over and over by his pregnant mother, where they are born at the age of 9 or 10 instantly (apparently in that same orange coat)

Before i get too off topic (too late) the reason they survived is because they had to for the plot. However, i can think of a way to explain it:

The explosion was designed to harm everyone but also to do extra damage to Lawful divine casters. Girard wanted to kill Soon, and didn't trust paladins, but he didn't neccesarily want to kill anyone that showed up. The first safeguard was, of course, the keywords. The second was the warning sent to all the gates of someone looking for it. This would be the third: that the explosion doesn't do as much to Chaotic alignments (Elan, Haley, V[?]) or to fighter classes (Roy) but does extra to divine casters (which would explain why Durkon was nowhere near the explosion, and would probably kill Soon). Bards are arcane casters so it wouldn't do as much to him either.

The end result: Clerics dead, Paladins dead, and everybody else scared out of their wits so they won't keep looking.

[Leolo]

They both have the same hit dice, but with the same rolls, or same number of points for point buy, and the same level of concern for optimization, the fighter will generally have higher Constitution than the paladin (who will have higher Wisdom and Charisma than the fighter).

At least it is possible. But an epic paladin may have even higher Constitution (better Items, Wish etc.)

Also the OOTS is the "good group", containing the (opposite to the linear guild) not really "optimized" characters. It is a gag. V is using Evocations. Elan is no Fighter/Rogue/Sorcerer who specialize on enchantments and Roy is neither dumb nor without wisdom. Nor charisma if you look at his puns. Frankly they even managed to stay at the plot during the current story arc, made character development, work together without blasting each other any longer and construct plans how to accomplish their main quest.

OOTS is how a roleplaying group should evolve. What they are not is: Build with optimization in mind.

If you look for a combat oriented character with maxed strength and constitution there is someone who is always looking for a hug and ice cream. The gag is that the munchkins loose although they tell everyone that their build is strictly better.

So, it is very unlikely that Roy has more hit points than Soon had have. Or even a similar amount.

[good_lookin_gus]

They both have the same hit dice, but with the same rolls, or same number of points for point buy, and the same level of concern for optimization, the fighter will generally have higher Constitution than the paladin (who will have higher Wisdom and Charisma than the fighter).

They use the same Hit Die, but Soon would have many more of them.


Also the OOTS is the "good group", containing the (opposite to the linear guild) not really "optimized" characters. It is a gag. V is using Evocations. Elan is no Fighter/Rogue/Sorcerer who specialize on enchantments and Roy is neither dumb nor without wisdom. Nor charisma if you look at his puns. Frankly they even managed to stay at the plot during the current story arc, made character development, work together without blasting each other any longer and construct plans how to accomplish their main quest.

OOTS is how a roleplaying group should evolve. What they are not is: Build with optimization in mind.

If you look for a combat oriented character with maxed strength and constitution there is someone who is always looking for a hug and ice cream. The gag is that the munchkins loose although they tell everyone that their build is strictly better.

So, it is very unlikely that Roy has more hit points than Soon had have. Or even a similar amount.

The Linear Guild is optimized?

[Zevox]

The Linear Guild is optimized?
Well, Thog is. Strength and (presumably) constitution out the wazoo, intelligence and perhaps other mental stats as dump stats, Barbarian with two levels of Fighter for the bonus feats, wielding a two-handed weapon - he's pretty much your archetypal optimized non-tripping meleer.

Nale, yeah, not so much. Sabine, unknown, since she appears to be a Succubus with homebrew abilities. And the rest are a mixed bag which mostly boils down to "insufficient information."

But yeah, Thog is.

Zevox

[good_lookin_gus]

Well, Thog is. Strength and (presumably) constitution out the wazoo, intelligence and perhaps other mental stats as dump stats, Barbarian with two levels of Fighter for the bonus feats, wielding a two-handed weapon - he's pretty much your archetypal optimized non-tripping meleer.

Nale, yeah, not so much. Sabine, unknown, since she appears to be a Succubus with homebrew abilities. And the rest are a mixed bag which mostly boils down to "insufficient information."

But yeah, Thog is.

Zevox

Well yeah, Thog. It looks like he may have taking something like Destructive Rage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html), which is normally a terrible feat; then again, Thog like breaking stuff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html). :smalltongue:

Now Pompey was a Half-Elf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html) and Leeky was a Druid that didn't take Natural Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html).

[TheWerdna]

Ok i said this before but no one seems to have read my post. There probably was more damage delt the closer the charecters are to the center. Both Haley and Elan ran while Roy didn't. It is possible that because they got away from the center of the exposion, they took less damage. Roy was in the center, so he would have taken more damage.

Also there is the possibility of low rolls. They all could have been lucky and alot of the dmg rolls got 1s

[Mooglefrooglian]

there are two things we can be sure of: Girard wanted Soon dead, and the explosion is a means to that end.

We can't be sure of the first one, and by extension from that the second one. We are talking about epic level illusions here, designed to misdirect you. Roy specifically states that he had no idea that the Scribble hated each other so much.

Seems almost if he's trying to trick them away.

Sure, we don't know that either, but you said we can be sure of. We can't, not with an epic level illusionist.

[good_lookin_gus]

Ok i said this before but no one seems to have read my post. There probably was more damage delt the closer the charecters are to the center. Both Haley and Elan ran while Roy didn't. It is possible that because they got away from the center of the exposion, they took less damage. Roy was in the center, so he would have taken more damage.

Also there is the possibility of low rolls. They all could have been lucky and alot of the dmg rolls got 1s

Why would you conclude that nobody read your previous post?:smallconfused:

Anyway, Roy seemed like he may have been further away than Elan or Haley when the explosion occurred (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html).

[hobbitkniver]

Coz V, is the wizard version of Chuck Norris.

If you rolled a five and V rolled a five, V has rolled higher than you!

When the Boogyman goes to sleep every night, he checks his closet for V's Explosive Runes.

V doesn't read scrolls, he stares scrolls down until they run and hide in his spellbook.

There's no theory of everything. Physics is just a list of laws that V didn't tell to shut up and sit down.

V does not sleep, he trances.

There's no sexuality behind V's body, it's another Explosive Rune.

V doesn't wear a watch, he casts Time Stop.

Please. Please don't start this on here, you're reminding why I quit WoW.

[TriForce]

well with this one, im simply following redcloacks idea, the simplest solution is the most probable, and if girard made a spell that specifically dealt extra damage to lawfulgood divine caster, that would complicate the spell he used a lot. on the other hand, if he simply didnt intend to kill soon, this would be exactly what would happen, so while its possible everyone survived becouse girard made the spell especially harmful to paladins, its much simpler to assume the spell never was designed to kill.

[Leolo]

The Linear Guild is optimized?

No, they are not. At least i do not know if they are.

But they pretend to be optimized. They pretend that bards suck, that fighter beyond lvl X sucks...and so on.

It is not important if the assumptions are correct, only that they are build with this assumptions in mind. Or maybe this is not the correct way to describe it.

"They are a example for the bad group" does fit better. They are full of exotics, some only because of style (drow), some because of the thought of optimization. Not necessary successfull. ;-)

Roy have more benefits from his intelligence than Thog from his constitution, and i believe that this is the gag within the constellation of them. They are not only opposite in question of their appearance or alignment. They represent different gaming philosophies. Or at least targets to make jokes on different gaming philosophies.

Short message: No, Roy is not the kind of fighter with maximized constitution and strength and nothing more.

[Gamerlord]

I myself believe this:
whatever spell Girard used was programmed to only do severe damage to people above level X, anyone lower then that would take a small amount of damage.

[with an e]

Here's a simple explanation for you:
Girard designed an MdN damage spell with a 1>P>x chance of killing what he thought Soon would be like when Soon approached the trap, where P is the chance of dealing enough damage to kill Soon, and x is some number Girard found acceptable. M<V's hit point total. Therefore, the spell has a small but nonzero chance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html) of failing to kill the OotS members.

[Zeitgeist]

We can't be sure of the first one, and by extension from that the second one. We are talking about epic level illusions here, designed to misdirect you. Roy specifically states that he had no idea that the Scribble hated each other so much.

Seems almost if he's trying to trick them away.

Sure, we don't know that either, but you said we can be sure of. We can't, not with an epic level illusionist.

You're running under the assumption that just because he's an illusionist, he must be a pathological liar.

We should believe that what he says is true unless we have reasonable doubt not to.

His huge message indicates a strong dislike, more like hatred for Soon. We read enough to get that message pretty clearly, and if we go back to the flashback of OotS, we see even more of this. He despises Soon.

When somebody says, "It should have been you who died in that rift, you cowardly son of a bitch. Allow me to remedy that error now. Say hello to your barnyard gods for me," there is absolutely no reasonable doubt to consider that he did not have every intent of killing Soon.

Based on that, we operate under the premise that he wanted soon dead until someone can provide ample evidence to indicate that was not his intent. I don't have to prove that he wanted to kill Soon, but you would have to prove that he didn't. Until then, it's assumed that he did, as all evidence points to that. And "he uses illusions" is not ample evidence.

Rather than try to look at the least likely circumstances first, perhaps you should go to the most likely and work from there as new evidences come up. It's the most logical way to go about it.

[Mant]

And how does this situation fail by it's own rules? How much do we actually know about this situation?

We know what we are told.

And as far as things are, it fails by its own rules.

[Zigg]

One word: Magic ;-)

[Zeful]

We know what we are told.

And as far as things are, it fails by its own rules.

We are not told the rules of the situation. We don't have the spell description or the thought process behind it's placement. All we know is that the trap 1.)Informed Girard of someone there. 2.)Girard wanted Soon to die. and 3.) It exploded. There are plenty of situations that the three above facts are maintained and the low yield makes sense.

[Mant]

All we know is that the trap 1.)Informed Girard of someone there. 2.)Girard wanted Soon to die. and 3.) It exploded. There are plenty of situations that the three above facts are maintained and the low yield makes sense.

What we know now is that girard placed a booby trap with the intent of killing Soon, an epic level paladin, with it. That's what we are told.
It failed to kill a mid-level group of adventurers, one of which had pretty low hp. This is what we see.

It fails by its own rules, described just a few panels before.
Therefore you can't use suspension of disbelief to condone it.
This is what it is.

Possibilities, "plenty of situations" and all the rest of the geek theorycrafting is not in question here. The "future" is not yet here, and will be discussed when -if- it becomes present. If in the future something more will be told, i'll change my opinion. As things are now, it looks like a pretty clear mistake.

[The Extinguisher]

I'm still at a loss as to why people are so sure that this trap would have killed Soon. Girard was angry, but for all we know it was just supposed to knock him down so he could laugh at him more.

Or you know, maybe Girard didn't want to kill an epic level force of good guarding the door to the end of the world, as much as he distrusted him.

[FujinAkari]

In order for a trap to do enough damage to kill Soon, it had to be specialized to an exhaustive degree. Similar to a 2nd level spell that does 2d20 damage to all non-demons within 30', to get enough damage out of the blast to actually -kill- an epic level Paladin the spell likely was written to deal 20d6 to everyone with 50' (Reflex Half) and an additional 20d20 to any paladins.

Thus, the Order survived.

[Kish]

Or you know, maybe Girard didn't want to kill an epic level force of good guarding the door to the end of the world, as much as he distrusted him.
Telling Soon, "I have no honor and oh, yeah, I want you dead," would be pretty stupid then. If Soon had personally set off the trap, he likely would have been inclined to consider seizing Girard's Gate a good idea afterward. He certainly wouldn't be likely to continue trusting Girard with it.

(Nor to question that Girard is telling the truth, any more than Girard apparently questioned his assumption that Soon would break the oath.)

And what if someone--let's say, the fifth-level paladin messengers Soon sent to bring a message to Girard--did get killed by the trap? We have Soon even more ready to declare war on Girard.

[Spiky]

In order for a trap to do enough damage to kill Soon, it had to be specialized to an exhaustive degree. Similar to a 2nd level spell that does 2d20 damage to all non-demons within 30', to get enough damage out of the blast to actually -kill- an epic level Paladin the spell likely was written to deal 20d6 to everyone with 50' (Reflex Half) and an additional 20d20 to any paladins.

Thus, the Order survived.

Several have mentioned this. Is an explosion capable of being keyed to a race or class to do extra damage? Roy's sword certainly is.

I'm sorry I didn't quote it, but there was one person with the simplest answer. Girard is in error. In his comparison of his destructive capability vs Soon's hp and related issues. He clearly doesn't understand Paladins, maybe he thinks they have low hp. Maybe rage has blinded him, rants are hardly a coherent source.

[the_tick_rules]

Haley= evasion

Rest, plot power or the explosion wasn't terribly deadly.

[SaintRidley]

You can target specific alignments (see Chaos Hammer).
You can target specific creature types (Bane Magic feat).

With Epic magic one can pretty much tailor the spell to whatever specifications are needed.

If Girard wanted a spell to kill Paladins but leave other things pretty much alone he had the capability.

[Zeitgeist]

I'm still at a loss as to why people are so sure that this trap would have killed Soon. Girard was angry, but for all we know it was just supposed to knock him down so he could laugh at him more.

Considering he flat out made an indisputable inference that he wanted to kill Soon, ie: "it should have been you that died, let me fix that," that would be a pretty good explanation as to why so many people actually believe Girard wanted to kill Soon. I think Girard saying so is pretty darn good evidence in itself.

What I don't get is why so many people seem to believe Girard had no intent of killing Soon.

On another note, the specialized Paladin damage makes a lot of sense. After all, it's an easier way to make it higher damage without being too hard for him to make, plus it mean he'll only kill Paladins, which is his main goal anyhow. In fact, I think most of Roy's damage may have come from falling, even.

[salinan]

I don't understand why people seem to be discounting the entirely reasonable premise that the explosion simply does less damage the further away you are. As has already been mentioned, that's exactly how it works in real life. Hell, Haley even says 'Run!' in the strip - pretty useless to shout unless they have a chance of getting outside the area of damage, or the damage decreases over distance. Who needs plot armour, or any intricate explanations like paladin-specific damage? The simplest explanation is the most likely.

[good_lookin_gus]

I don't understand why people seem to be discounting the entirely reasonable premise that the explosion simply does less damage the further away you are. As has already been mentioned, that's exactly how it works in real life. Hell, Haley even says 'Run!' in the strip - pretty useless to shout unless they have a chance of getting outside the area of damage, or the damage decreases over distance. Who needs plot armour, or any intricate explanations like paladin-specific damage? The simplest explanation is the most likely.

Already been covered. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html)

[salinan]

Already been covered. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html)
Sorry if it has, but... I can't see anything in the strip which covers it?

[good_lookin_gus]

Sorry if it has, but... I can't see anything in the strip which covers it?

If it had to do with them being further away than Roy, why were they last shown to be closer?

[salinan]

If it had to do with them being further away than Roy, why were they last shown to be closer?

Who said anything about Haley etc being further away than Roy? And exactly what has that got to do with my argument?

Additionally, clearly, Roy didn't die, and we don't know how much damage he took. So I don't see what it would have to do with who was closer anyway.

Furthermore, we don't know that at the time of the explosion that Roy wasn't the closest to the explosion. We don't see the explosion actually happen except at a distance.

[good_lookin_gus]

Who said anything about Haley etc being further away than Roy? And exactly what has that got to do with my argument?


I don't understand why people seem to be discounting the entirely reasonable premise that the explosion simply does less damage the further away you are. As has already been mentioned, that's exactly how it works in real life. Hell, Haley even says 'Run!' in the strip - pretty useless to shout unless they have a chance of getting outside the area of damage, or the damage decreases over distance. Who needs plot armour, or any intricate explanations like paladin-specific damage? The simplest explanation is the most likely.




Furthermore, we don't know that at the time of the explosion that Roy wasn't the closest to the explosion. We don't see the explosion actually happen except at a distance.

No, but if their proximity to the blast was important, I would expect it to be plainly shown.

[salinan]

When Haley said 'Run!' I'd expect that everyone would have started moving away from there.


No, but if their proximity to the blast was important, I would expect it to be plainly shown.
Why? To stop the forum arguments? How close they were/how much damage they took wasn't important as far as the story goes, and showing the explosion from further away makes it funnier.

[good_lookin_gus]

When Haley said 'Run!' I'd expect that everyone would have started moving away from there.

Well Roy certainly did :smalltongue:


Why? To stop the forum arguments?

To show the reader what's happening in the story?


How close they were/how much damage they took wasn't important as far as the story goes, and showing the explosion from further away makes it funnier.

The detail may or may not be important enough to mention, but that's for the author to decide. My point was that the placement of the subjects immediately before the blast, undermines the claim that relative proximity had any affect.

[salinan]

Well Roy certainly did :smalltongue:
Roy must be getting used to freefall by now. :smallbiggrin:


My point was that the placement of the subjects immediately before the blast, undermines the claim that relative proximity had any affect.
I'm still not sure why you're making some sort of argument that Haley etc. were closer than Roy, therefore relative proximity has no effect on damage sustained - again, we don't know how much damage Roy took - he may have only had scratches for all we know - and so Haley and Elan may well have taken more damage and still been ok without invalidating my argument.

On the "immediately before the blast": How exactly do you know how much time there was between that panel and the blast? All we can infer was that at most, it wasn't quite enough time for Roy to make it far enough to escape the blast.

[pendell]

*Wanders by*

This may have been mentioned up thread ...

... in the latest version of the comic, we see that Girard had no real understanding of the motivations or psychology of paladins. It could be that he's also lacking in the knowledge of just how to kill them. He may have fully intended it to be a death trap, but failed to account for the hit points, buffs and saving throws of an epic-level paladin .. or even a high-level adventuring party such as the OOTS.

So there could be an in-game answer that doesn't require plot armor: The trap was badly built and misconceived by its author, Girard.

Ironically, if Girard has no understanding of the lawful mindset, it is possible his dungeon will be far more effective against the chaotic Xykon than the lawful Roy or Redcloak.

Which doesn't bode well for the gate's defenses. Illusion depends heavily on understanding the nature and psychology of the target. Absent that understanding, the illusion won't be credible. That goes double if you have a cross-aligned party like OOTS. What is credible to Roy won't be credible to Haley, and vice versa.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[good_lookin_gus]

I'm still not sure why you're making some sort of argument that Haley etc. were closer than Roy, therefore relative proximity has no effect on damage sustained - again, we don't know how much damage Roy took - he may have only had scratches for all we know - and so Haley and Elan may well have taken more damage and still been ok without invalidating my argument.

We know how much damage the artist depicted, which I admit, tells very little. It seemed to hurt more than a 3d6+24 (is that right?) Finger of Death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0430.html). V looks equally hurt (despite having about half the hit points), and Elan and Haley look like they've taken no damage at all.


On the "immediately before the blast": How exactly do you know how much time there was between that panel and the blast? All we can infer was that at most, it wasn't quite enough time for Roy to make it far enough to escape the blast.

I meant the panel immediately before the blast. However, I'll go ahead and also argue that the boom went off right after "Say hello to your barnyard gods for me.", because:

1. While Girad's wisdom has certainly taken some hits lately, how much of a head start was he really going to give Soon?

2. The split seconds before an explosion are often critical and dramatic. Unless the author plans on revisiting them; they are unlikely to be skipped.

[salinan]

We know how much damage the artist depicted, which I admit, tells very little. It seemed to hurt more than a 3d6+24 (is that right?) Finger of Death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0430.html). V looks equally hurt (despite having about half the hit points), and Elan and Haley look like they've taken no damage at all.
Elan and Haley can be easily explained as having been healed off camera.

As for Roy and V looking to be equally damaged? I'm sticking by saying that you simply can't tell how much damage they've taken. Clearly, when you have a reference, where they pick up another scratch each time they're injured, you can say they've become more injured than they were. But I don't believe it gives a good enough indication of overall damage. Consider occasions when characters have been laid low by a single wound (thrust through the chest seems to be Rich's favourite :smallbiggrin:) compared to when they've been covered by scratches.

Another question on that, if it were to be accurate, and report damage accurately, does it indicate absolute damage, or relative to their total hit points? I think you'd be able to see where I'm going with that.


I meant the panel immediately before the blast. However, I'll go ahead and also argue that the boom went off right after "Say hello to your barnyard gods for me.", because:

1. While Girad's wisdom has certainly taken some hits lately, how much of a head start was he really going to give Soon?

2. The split seconds before an explosion are often critical and dramatic. Unless the author plans on revisiting them; they are unlikely to be skipped.
I'm willing to concede that there wouldn't have been a gap of 30 minutes, or anything like that - it would quite closely follow Girard's speech. However, the explosion clearly doesn't happen as soon as Girard finished speaking, since Haley at least had time to register what was happening and shout a warning. So clearly, there was some gap, however small. Similarly, I don't think it's unreasonable to consider that the PCs might have managed to stumble at least a short distance before the 'boom'. If we consider my thesis that the explosion would have been most intense at its center, i.e. presumably right next to the illusion, it could make quite a bit of difference even if they only get a few meters away.

[good_lookin_gus]

Elan and Haley can be easily explained as having been healed off camera.

Who healed them? Elan's single Mass Cure Light Wounds would have affected Vaarsuvious too. Besides, he was busy writing that message for Girad in the sand. So Durkon, with his 20ft. movement speed, made it back at least two rounds before Roy and Belkar? And why did he heal the squishiest character last?


As for Roy and V looking to be equally damaged? I'm sticking by saying that you simply can't tell how much damage they've taken. Clearly, when you have a reference, where they pick up another scratch each time they're injured, you can say they've become more injured than they were. But I don't believe it gives a good enough indication of overall damage. Consider occasions when characters have been laid low by a single wound (thrust through the chest seems to be Rich's favourite :smallbiggrin:) compared to when they've been covered by scratches.


Another question on that, if it were to be accurate, and report damage accurately, does it indicate absolute damage, or relative to their total hit points? I think you'd be able to see where I'm going with that.


I've admitted that it doesn't tell us much, but I won't accept that it means nothing. Consider Roy, after saving vs. a Finger of Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fingerOfDeath.htm), taking a 32d6 Meteor Swarm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html). We can clearly see that he has taken different amounts of damage. No, it is not a good indicator; but it is an indicator, nonetheless.


I'm willing to concede that there wouldn't have been a gap of 30 minutes, or anything like that - it would quite closely follow Girard's speech. However, the explosion clearly doesn't happen as soon as Girard finished speaking, since Haley at least had time to register what was happening and shout a warning. So clearly, there was some gap, however small. Similarly, I don't think it's unreasonable to consider that the PCs might have managed to stumble at least a short distance before the 'boom'. If we consider my thesis that the explosion would have been most intense at its center, i.e. presumably right next to the illusion, it could make quite a bit of difference even if they only get a few meters away.

I'm starting to think that I confused your original argument with a common one on this topic. Was your point not that Haley & Elan went unscathed because they were allegedly further away than Roy, but that they all survived an otherwise lethal blast because they moved away from it in the nick of time?

[INWranger]

There seem to be two possibilities not considered. One is that Girard specifically designed the spell to kill Soon which might have been accomplished by the use of ability points, but being a good character and a ten percent chance it wasn't Soon or his Paladin lackeys it would still hurt if it wasn't he. The other possibility, which I don't know if it is in the rules specifically, is decay of the power of the spell over time. It could have been 50 to 100 years or more from when the spell had first been cast, thus weakening the magic and making the explosion weaker.

[salinan]

Who healed them? Elan's single Mass Cure Light Wounds would have affected Vaarsuvious too. Besides, he was busy writing that message for Girad in the sand. So Durkon, with his 20ft. movement speed, made it back at least two rounds before Roy and Belkar? And why did he heal the squishiest character last?
Who healed them? Umm... Durkon?

We know that Roy flew through the air with the greatest of ease, so it doesn't seem unlikely that the others also flew in various directions also. So perhaps Durkon was simply closest to where Haley and Elan landed? (Note - I'll concede that Roy being blown for miles is almost certainly Rule of Funny, but I'm willing to roll with it. :smallsmile:)


I'm starting to think that I confused your original argument with a common one on this topic. Was your point not that Haley & Elan went unscathed because they were allegedly further away than Roy, but that they all survived an otherwise lethal blast because they moved away from it in the nick of time?
For the first, no - never my point. For the second, sorta.

I'm happy with at least the possibility that, assuming Girard was serious when he said 'Say hello to your barnyard gods', and so really did mean to kill Soon (or whoever showed up instead of him,) that the explosion damage could have been reduced by everyone having been warned by Haley and thus be moving away at the time the explosion happened, and this action be able to reduce the potentially fatal damage to non-fatal, because explosive force decreases sharply with distance from the explosion. (This is what happens in real life!)

I'm far happier with the logic of this - I can't see anything which definitively disproves this - and I much prefer it to a copout like plot armour, or pretending that Girard didn't really mean to kill them, despite the (to me) pretty clear language which strongly suggests otherwise.

[Zevox]

because explosive force decreases sharply with distance from the explosion. (This is what happens in real life!)
This is not what happens in D&D. In D&D, any and all area-of-effect effects, magical or otherwise, affect everyone in the area equally, regardless of where they are within the area. To do it the way you suggest would be a significant house-rule.

Zevox

[salinan]

This is not what happens in D&D. In D&D, any and all area-of-effect effects, magical or otherwise, affect everyone in the area equally, regardless of where they are within the area. To do it the way you suggest would be a significant house-rule.
I'm aware of that. But don't you think that D&D probably does it the way it does because making your players learn complex mathematics is probably not the best way to recruit new players, rather than because that's the way they thought it should be?

[martinkou]

I'm aware of that. But don't you think that D&D probably does it the way it does because making your players learn complex mathematics is probably not the best way to recruit new players, rather than because that's the way they thought it should be?

Consider OOtS characters have rectangular (males and androgynous elf) or rounded-rectangular (females) bodies, I don't find area of effect spells following the inverse square rule very likely. Realistic geometry and physics simulation isn't one of OOtS's strengths - go buy an overpriced GPU for that.

[salinan]

Consider OOtS characters have rectangular (males and androgynous elf) or rounded-rectangular (females) bodies, I don't find area of effect spells following the inverse square rule very likely. Realistic geometry and physics simulation isn't one of OOtS's strengths - go buy an overpriced GPU for that.

<Sigh> Fine.

If you prefer your plot armour or paladin-specific damage to the idea that maybe Rich thought an explosion should act like a real world happening, then you go ahead - I promise I won't make you change your mind.

I don't think I can fight anyone who wants to argue that an art style dictates the way the characters sustain damage.

[martinkou]

<Sigh> Fine.

If you prefer your plot armour or paladin-specific damage to the idea that maybe Rich thought an explosion should act like a real world happening, then you go ahead - I promise I won't make you change your mind.

I don't think I can fight anyone who wants to argue that an art style dictates the way the characters sustain damage.

Hey, neither do I think I'm changing the minds of anyone here. But between a d20 and the Internet, there's always space for one more wisecrack. :smallwink:

[salinan]

Hey, neither do I think I'm changing the minds of anyone here. But between a d20 and the Internet, there's always space for one more wisecrack. :smallwink:
True. :smallsmile:

Deepest apologies for the snarkiness. I think I'll just go back into my corner - I've said my bit.

[Ancalagon]

Isn't the simple explanation that Girard, as Illusionist, is a sucky damage-dealer?

Maybe that explosion was the best he could come up with, a theory that's not unlikely given that he trusts more in the power of deception and illusion than into pure force and damage.
He also might have tried to get a badass-looking dustcloud (an illusion-guy being concerned about appearence is not that unlikely) and thus had to make a compromise in regard to spell-power. Add that he might have a bad idea on what a paladin can take and we have a reasonable explanation (apart from: "The artist exaggerated the explosion's size for the sake of drama and joke")

[ChrisFortyTwo]

I honestly think that this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0696.html) comic lends more credence to the Chaos Hammer style spell. Haley and Elan are already on-task, while V hasn't even been healed yet. They are the two chaotic people in this group and so wouldn't be affected. V is being healed, and therefore took some damage, but as stated before, with a good will save, a quarter or even 1/10 of what Roy might have taken (if it was shadow Evocation)

Girard is clearly upset because of the party leader / corrupt power stuff, so it would seem most appropriate to have the spell affect those who are, by their class restriction lawful (and neutral). It seems like the sort of thing one might do simply to reduce the Epic Spellcraft DC (restrict alignment). Heck, you might even restrict it to LG, just to drive home the point.

Then the only thing to think about is how Roy survived. Now, he does have more HP than the others, but compared to an Epic Paladin, who knows (though I think I remember a thread discussing the possible HP difference right after Roy landed). First, Roy walked away from the center of the blast before the others (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html). I mean, Girard knew that Soon would listen to the end of the message, Roy is a little more impatient and angry. Second, maybe the spell did have a specific target that it would do even more damage to. I mean, I can imagine Girard researching a spell that specifically targeted Soon himself. Anyway, right now that's still a bit of a mystery.

As far as the plot armor goes, Rich has used Deus ex Machina before, even cheap ones (see Roy beating Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html)), but I doubt he would simply ignore an explanation for that. We will see what it is eventually. I mean, he addressed the "double-bluff" thing the boards were raging about in-comic, I can't imagine him ignoring the "how did V survive" point.

Also Suspension of Disbelief is a necessary evil to storytelling. Willing Suspension of Disbelief is when the audience accepts the crap being thrown at them because it doesn't violate the main reason they are reading - the plot. When that unspoken agreement between author and audience is violated, then the Suspension of Disbelief is broken. This is the author's mistake, not lack of imagination from the audience. Granted, the target audience can move where the line is (for instance, it doesn't strain a child's willing suspension of disbelief for kids to accept the premises of Saturday morning cartoons, even though to an adult the premise is inane).

EDIT: Wow, while writing my super-post, I think every point of mine was ninja-addressed. So sad.

[TriForce]

my apologies, but anyone who is saying girard has no clue about paladins should get their own sanity checked... he traveled with soon over the continents,and did adventures with them that caused them all to become epic lvl... how the hell can you NOT notice the fact that paladins have pretty high hit points, saves and all that other stuff? girard knew all of that, and reasonable doubt? how about roy and the rest surviving the blast that appearantly supposed to kill someone with 250+ hp (probably)? thats enough to double check his truth for me

[pendell]

my apologies, but anyone who is saying girard has no clue about paladins should get their own sanity checked... he traveled with soon over the continents,and did adventures with them that caused them all to become epic lvl... how the hell can you NOT notice the fact that paladins have pretty high hit points, saves and all that other stuff?


None so blind as those who will not see when their own preconceptions get in the way. Girard had a fundamental misunderstanding of a paladin's psychology. Who's to say what else he missed?

Check my sanity, you say?

Heh. We're arguing over the inane details of a stick figure comic strip on an internet forum with people we've mostly never met. This behavior doesn't exactly scream 'sane' to my biased mind.

Besides ...

"And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit. " -- The Tick.

Incidentally, you *could* have said something like "I don't see that as exceptionally likely" or "that seems a rather silly idea" -- by attacking the *idea* , rather than the *people who hold* the idea, you can be much more polite. Just a thought.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[TriForce]

None so blind as those who will not see when their own preconceptions get in the way. Girard had a fundamental misunderstanding of a paladin's psychology. Who's to say what else he missed?

the difference between misunderstanding a persons motivation, and the fact that it takes 20, not 5 hits from something to seriously hurt him is so obvious your arguement really doesnt hold ground, so my statement stands



Check my sanity, you say?

Heh. We're arguing over the inane details of a stick figure comic strip on an internet forum with people we've mostly never met. This behavior doesn't exactly scream 'sane' to my biased mind.

Besides ...

"And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit. " -- The Tick.

Incidentally, you *could* have said something like "I don't see that as exceptionally likely" or "that seems a rather silly idea" -- by attacking the *idea* , rather than the *people who hold* the idea, you can be much more polite. Just a thought.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

quoting the tick on sanity isnt helping your point... at all.... and indeed i COULD have said the idea is unlikely, or anything you suggested, but if i did that, my point of "if you really consider that likely, you need your brain examined" wouldnt be as clear as now

[Irbis]

You know, if the best argument Girard hatin' can muster is that he (being an epic wizard) has no idea how their world works, then you're long past even grasping at non-existent straws.

TL/DR - if the pile of haet thrown at Girard (which currently clocks in 1.4 Mikos, or 1.9 Xykons) would somehow come to life, its AC minuses to size alone would have dwarfed Tarrasque :smallamused:

And anyway, GH's, for all we know Soon fell at the very moment he killed Kraagor or draw blades against the rest of the OotS, fitting names OotS called him nicely, and barely managed to atone by never breaking any oath again. Or fell during their travels. I wonder what haters would say at similar development? Sudden silence, maybe? :smallamused:

And any broken gramophone spewing things about 'paladin's honor' should remind himself that so fat we only know OotS part of the story from rose-colored tale of the SG, that Girard knows Soon far better than the entire population of GHs combined, and that the billion prestige classes for fallen paladins exist for a reason.

[pendell]

You know, if the best argument Girard hatin' can muster is that he (being an epic wizard) has no idea how their world works, then you're long past even grasping at non-existent straws.


Just like Darth V should have known that liches are immune to electricity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) , despite being high level and 18 intelligence.

Just like Roy should have known that liches have phylacteries, especially since he had made it his life quest to take vengeance on one.

Just like Xykon, despite being an epic-level sorcerer, is abysmally ignorant on a whole range of stuff. That's why Redcloak is around.

Miko Miyazaki wasn't exactly the sharpest pencil in the drawer, either, capable of making breathtaking leaps of logic on the flimsiest evidence. She's also exhibit A for 'able to walk around with a part for weeks/months at a time, while failing to pick up a single clue because her worldview keeps getting in the way'.

Maybe Girard has the same problem. After all, it's not just lawful people who can be arrogant, right?


BEHOLD THE POWER OF STUPID! This comic is filled with sheer boneheaded stupidity. The heroes are stupid. The villains are stupid. The NPCs are stupid. Even the gods themselves are capable of breathtaking acts of stupidity, which is where we got the Snarl in the first place.

So, when we ask the question 'why did Girard fail to kill Soon with a death trap?' The answer 'because Girard screwed up' seems a likely and consistent answer.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[veti]

So, to sum up, I think there are five possibilities listed in this thread:

Girard intended the spell to kill Soon, and fine-crafted it so neatly that it wouldn't kill Roy.
Girard intended the spell to kill Soon, but was so incompetent that he didn't have the faintest idea how many hit points or how good saving throws Soon had. Since Girard had been adventuring with Soon for a long time, I want to reject this one out of hand.
Girard intended the spell to kill Soon, but only on the assumption that Soon would stand right beside the illusion right up to the end of the message, even after he'd been told what was about to happen.
Girard didn't intend the spell to kill Soon, but just to hurt, taunt and generally annoy him.
There's no point looking for an explanation because there isn't one, it's just Plot Armour.


I don't buy 1., because it would require too much time and research on Girard's part. He placed the trap in the heat of anger and (apparently) within 12 weeks of the Scribble breaking up. If he could research and fine-tune an Indefinite Explosive Trap of Epic-Paladin Slaying spell in that time, he's a better caster and researcher than I take him for.

Number 2. requires Girard to be incredibly stupid and ignorant of the basic rules of D&D, which everyone else in the universe seems very familiar with.

Number 3. requires either Girard or Soon (or both, of course) to be so mind-buggeringly stupid that I find it hard to imagine them surviving beyond 3rd level, let alone an epic quest to contain a world-eating abomination. I'm sorry, that's not "suspending" disbelief, that's hanging it up by its ankles over a slow fire until its brain fluids boil.

Number 4. requires Girard to be lying, or at least using hyperbole, in his speech. The message was designed to taunt and annoy, and the explosion was just an extension of the message. To me this is by far the most plausible answer.

Number 5 is just insulting, not only to the Giant but to all of us.

[gamephil]

I didn't think that Mr. Burlew was using strict D&D rules to tell the story, which most or all of the insistence that they should have died is based on, and I'm not sure how dumping the rules in favor of the story he wants to write is somehow bad writing.

Could he have squeezed in some extra panels explaining how they survived or come out and explain the house rules the OotS universe in detail? Yes, but I don't personally think it would add to the story. Apparently many people do, so that's all I'll say on the subject. I simply assume they could have survived in some way, and in fact did, through devices that are left up to interpretation (there are any number, they just weren't explicitely stated), at least until it is revealed in story that Girard indeed has something else up his sleeve, which I admit I'm not expecting.

That said, conjecturing how it might have gone can be fun, which is what I thought this thread was when I poked my head in. Sadly, it is instead an argument about some supposed plot hole. However, in that spirit I must point out that Girard showed himself to be, assuming all is as it seems, a villain that told the heroes The Plan in a long monologue and then put them in a death trap. Of course they survived.

[Irbis]

Just like Darth V should have known that liches are immune to electricity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) , despite being high level and 18 intelligence.

And since when V is epic wizard who traveled for years with a lich? :smallconfused:


Just like Roy should have known that liches have phylacteries, especially since he had made it his life quest to take vengeance on one.

And since when Roy is epic any wizard? Plus, V joined Roy only because he demonstrated huge knowledge about magic. No points there.


Just like Xykon, despite being an epic-level sorcerer, is abysmally ignorant on a whole range of stuff. That's why Redcloak is around.

Ignorance =/= not caring.


Miko Miyazaki wasn't exactly the sharpest pencil in the drawer, either, capable of making breathtaking leaps of logic on the flimsiest evidence. She's also exhibit A for 'able to walk around with a part for weeks/months at a time, while failing to pick up a single clue because her worldview keeps getting in the way'.

Aaaaand... yes, you're correct! I won't dispute this!

But, to rain on your parade - guess what her class was? Wizard, maybe? :smallamused:

And how hard was her honor, exactly? Any non-broken oaths of service to her Liege? :smallamused:

Any old people she would have killed, oath or no oath, organizations she would have taken over? QED.

Yes, paladins are wunderbar! :smallbiggrin:


Maybe Girard has the same problem. After all, it's not just lawful people who can be arrogant, right?

So, when we ask the question 'why did Girard fail to kill Soon with a death trap?' The answer 'because Girard screwed up' seems a likely and consistent answer.

I'd expect epic caster with epic ranks in knowledge skills well aware of the rules (you know, one thing the wizards excel at) of the world around him. I'd also expect him to be well capable of killing any Tier 3 or lower class he wished.

Was he arrogant? Maybe. But you won't reach epic mages as glass cannon by being stupid, nor not paying attention to what meatshield is doing, especially if you're a support caster, not a blaster (Dorukan/Lirian's roles).

[Shale]

And since when Roy is epic any wizard? Plus, V joined Roy only because he demonstrated huge knowledge about magic. No points there.

Roy has made it his life goal to kill a lich, and has access to the library of a wizard who also made it his life's goal to kill that selfsame lich, albeit not for all that long. And he still doesn't know liches have phylacteries. That's very, very dumb.


Ignorance =/= not caring.

But it still equals ignorance. Girard is ignorant about paladins. He obviously cares a great deal about them, but that doesn't buy him ranks in Knowledge (What The Hell He's Doing).

[TriForce]

Roy has made it his life goal to kill a lich, and has access to the library of a wizard who also made it his life's goal to kill that selfsame lich, albeit not for all that long. And he still doesn't know liches have phylacteries. That's very, very dumb.



But it still equals ignorance. Girard is ignorant about paladins. He obviously cares a great deal about them, but that doesn't buy him ranks in Knowledge (What The Hell He's Doing).

all true, but somewhere, along the probably hundreds of battles they had, even a arrogant, dimwitted, uncaring girard would have noticed soon is a tough guy to bring down. its such a easy observation to make, not knowing about liches is quantum physics compared to that

[good_lookin_gus]

So, to sum up, I think there are five possibilities listed in this thread:

Girard intended the spell to kill Soon, and fine-crafted it so neatly that it wouldn't kill Roy.
Girard intended the spell to kill Soon, but was so incompetent that he didn't have the faintest idea how many hit points or how good saving throws Soon had. Since Girard had been adventuring with Soon for a long time, I want to reject this one out of hand.
Girard intended the spell to kill Soon, but only on the assumption that Soon would stand right beside the illusion right up to the end of the message, even after he'd been told what was about to happen.
Girard didn't intend the spell to kill Soon, but just to hurt, taunt and generally annoy him.
There's no point looking for an explanation because there isn't one, it's just Plot Armour.




I try not to spam the forums with reposts, but a few pages have passed:


Plot Armor is integral to fantasy roleplaying. Hit Points? Plot Armor. Saving Throws? Plot Armor. It still doesn't explain how an explosion failed to kill some people who were considerably weaker than the intended target. There are some decent explainations in the main thread. I think the top three are:

Girad was stupid.
He researched a Chaos Hammer type evocation that targets alignment.
He understood that it's really hard to one-shot an epic palladin with direct damage and planned on subsequently teleporting in to finish the job and/or gloat.

They're not mutually exclusive either, so you don't need to pick a favorite.

For the record, I also dislike the idea of a Palladin specific spell. Even when we look past the needless power boost such spells would give to Scry-n-Die, it would require some tremendous skill with Divination (heuristic magic, not Girad's strong point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html)). Personally, I think it would take Fiendish assistance as well.

[Spiky]

the difference between misunderstanding a persons motivation, and the fact that it takes 20, not 5 hits from something to seriously hurt him is so obvious your arguement really doesnt hold ground, so my statement stands

You make a logical, cogent point. However, Girard is neither. How'd you miss that with your logic?

[Shale]

Even when we look past the needless power boost such spells would give to Scry-n-Die, it would require some tremendous skill with Divination (heuristic magic, not Girad's strong point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html)).

I'd disagree with that part of it. Girard's spell did exactly what he wanted it to - it determined that the people who'd arrived were looking for the Gate, and had gotten its coordinates from the Sapphire Guard. His epic failure was in determining the circumstances under which the Guard would send someone to the Gate, but the heuristic spell was sound.

[Miklus]

Everyone assumes that V has low HP, but I bet V's CON is maxed out. Remember the beating V took from those trees?

It's not likely that those stat points went into wisdom, charisma or strength... That would mean, what, +3 or +4 HP per level?

There could also be magical elvern items on V that we do not know about. Like a robe of...something.

[Crystalline]

Well, talking on V's point- s/he does look pretty battered when we see her/him after the blast when Durkon has to go into healing overdrive. For the other characters, maybe they got away or have been healed off panel. I'm assuming the blast didn't do what it was supposed to do or would have left Soon hurt in the desert ready to pass out and die a slow painful death in the blistering heat. (Pleasant.)
Or the explosion was really meant to kill and everyone just made a saving throw. Who knows.

[pendell]

Hmmmm... are there rules in 3.5 for a trap to decay over time?

In the real world, if I buried a mine in the middle of the sahara desert and left it there for fifty years ... well, there's a good chance it would make just as big a KA-BOOM as the day it was planted, but there's a non-zero chance that decades of sand would make it into a dud.

Is there any possibility that the trap, planted a generation ago, is not as effective as it would have been in the year it was first set?

I strongly doubt it, as the entire point of D&D is that traps in dungeons left for eons nonetheless retain their lethal potency for thousands of years (instead of, say, being set off by rats), but I think it's a question worth asking.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[TriForce]

You make a logical, cogent point. However, Girard is neither. How'd you miss that with your logic?

actually, if you look at girards way of speaking and reasoning, you can see he values reasoning a lot, and since all we really seen of him is a rant against someone he hates, its way to early to assume his sanity has gone off the cliff


Hmmmm... are there rules in 3.5 for a trap to decay over time?

nope, not that i know of, and not in 4th or other editions either

[tomandtish]

This is not what happens in D&D. In D&D, any and all area-of-effect effects, magical or otherwise, affect everyone in the area equally, regardless of where they are within the area. To do it the way you suggest would be a significant house-rule.
Zevox

Not always true:

A staff of power can be used for a retributive strike, requiring it to be broken by its wielder. (If this breaking of the staff is purposeful and declared by the wielder, it can be performed as a standard action that does not require the wielder to make a Strength check.) All charges currently in the staff are instantly released in a 30-foot radius. All within 2 squares of the broken staff take points of damage equal to 8 × the number of charges in the staff, those 3 or 4 squares away take 6 × the number of charges in damage, and those 5 or 6 squares distant take 4 × the number of charges in damage. All those affected can make DC 17 Reflex saves to reduce the damage by half.

Presumably there are other effects that also do the same thing.

My two cents:

I do believe that Girard intended to kill Soon or his lackys (lackies?). However, it is believable to me that the spell just isn't powerful enough. Remember, he's an illusionist. Major explosions are not their forte. This may be his best shot, and it just doesn't have the oomph. That, combined with some lucky rolls, can make all the difference (I once rolled a 32 on a 20d6 fireball).

Some other thoughts that might or might not be true. Just throwing them out there:

1) At the time the spell was cast, Girard wasn't epic. Technically, 3.5 and epic rules came about well after the event. Rich has shown us an upgrade already, so it's possible Girard, Soon, etc. weren't epic at all at the time Girard cast it. For that matter, they might have been second (or even first edition). In that case, if memory serves me illusionists couldn't learn invocation.Evocation, so the source of some of your biggest booms is gone.

2) It's possible (doubtful I admit) that the explosion itself is not a spell. We know the recording is, but the explosion could be a magic item that was triggered to go off upon completion of the message, or maybe some non-magical explosive that was magically triggered.

[hamishspence]

Epic Handbook is 3.0 anyway, and the gates were created with epic magic, according to the prequel books- so its not implausible that if Lirien and Dorukan were epic, Girard was.

Aside from one reference in Origin and one in the main strip from Haley ("daddy was a 1st edition Thief"), most of the scenes in the prequels have been strongly based on 3.0-3.5.

Xykon's DR working against Lirien's claw attacks, only works if 3.5- since liches had DR/+1, not DR/bludgeoning and magic, in 3.0.

[Optimystik]

Xykon's DR working against Lirien's claw attacks, only works if 3.5- since liches had DR/+1, not DR/bludgeoning and magic, in 3.0.

Also, did the Destruction Domain have the Smite granted power in 3.0? Because Redcloak used that on the last paladin at the beginning of SoD.

[Marduk Prophet]

What we know now is that girard placed a booby trap with the intent of killing Soon, an epic level paladin, with it. That's what we are told.
It failed to kill a mid-level group of adventurers, one of which had pretty low hp. This is what we see.

It fails by its own rules, described just a few panels before.
Therefore you can't use suspension of disbelief to condone it.
This is what it is.

Possibilities, "plenty of situations" and all the rest of the geek theorycrafting is not in question here. The "future" is not yet here, and will be discussed when -if- it becomes present. If in the future something more will be told, i'll change my opinion. As things are now, it looks like a pretty clear mistake.


When you read a mystery novel, do you frown and claim that the book is making a pretty clear mistake just because it didn't explain the whole mystery immediately?


And seriously. Geek theorycrafting? I think that used to be called "using your imagination."

[Optimystik]

I'd disagree with that part of it. Girard's spell did exactly what he wanted it to - it determined that the people who'd arrived were looking for the Gate, and had gotten its coordinates from the Sapphire Guard. His epic failure was in determining the circumstances under which the Guard would send someone to the Gate, but the heuristic spell was sound.

As I pointed out in your other thread, merely determining that the ultimate source of the listener's coordinates is the Sapphire Guard is not enough. In addition to this scenario that he failed to consider, there was also the chance that Redcloak could have obtained either Shojo's corpse or Roy's and gotten the coordinates that way.

Furthermore, why would Soon be saying "Soon" in the middle of a desert, had he come to look for the gate himself as Girard predicted? Not that Soon is an uncommon word, but there's no guarantee he would have said it at all.

Setting overly broad conditions is just as bad as relying on them too heavily.

[rewinn]

Imagine the conversation around the OOTS campfire:

:roy: Hmmm ... how DID we all survive that blast anyway?

:durkon: Nae, hold off laddie! Sechlike discussions canna lead tae nawght save endless speculation an' fruitless disagreement

:vaarsuvius: Truly is it a powerful illusionist who can cause such discord with but a single spell

:belkar: Less talk, more stabbing!

:elan::haley: (offpanel, paying attention to more important things)

[Lvl45DM!]

As I pointed out in your other thread, merely determining that the ultimate source of the listener's coordinates is the Sapphire Guard is not enough. In addition to this scenario that he failed to consider, there was also the chance that Redcloak could have obtained either Shojo's corpse or Roy's and gotten the coordinates that way.

Furthermore, why would Soon be saying "Soon" in the middle of a desert, had he come to look for the gate himself as Girard predicted? Not that Soon is an uncommon word, but there's no guarantee he would have said it at all.

Setting overly broad conditions is just as bad as relying on them too heavily.
I am Soons subordinate i took along cos the big man wanted backup or was bored. I find something with arcane sight. I call out to my lord. What do i call him?

[The Extinguisher]

I am Soons subordinate i took along cos the big man wanted backup or was bored. I find something with arcane sight. I call out to my lord. What do i call him?

Wait wouldn't you call him right when you found it?

[Kish]

Wait wouldn't you call him right when you found it?
That's an awfully long title.

[Optimystik]

I am Soons subordinate i took along cos the big man wanted backup or was bored. I find something with arcane sight. I call out to my lord. What do i call him?

Would Soon be likely to bring low level paladins into an epic-level dangerous situation?

[Shale]

Asking for help from/providing help to an old ally, even one who parted on poor terms, is epic-level danger?

[SaintRidley]

I am Soons subordinate i took along cos the big man wanted backup or was bored. I find something with arcane sight. I call out to my lord. What do i call him?

My liege
My lord
My liege-lord
Commander
Sir
Ma'am (hey, he might have done drag at some point - we don't know)


Those are just a few off the top of my head.