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Leliel
2009-12-29, 07:25 PM
Well, I have always been a proponent of the idea of making the Proud Warrior Race Guys (think Klingons) more like Proud Soldier Race Guys (ie, expansionistic and military focused, but smart about it). I have also always been a fan of cyborgs, especially of the "computer logic with a human heart" variety.

So, for the Science Fantasy world I hope to create, I decided to combine them.

In it, most of the demihuman (elves, halflings, dwarves) races are actually genetically engineered offshoots of humanity created to accommodate them to magic. However, there are also a few races of my own design, such as the aforementioned Proud Soldier Race Guys. Called the Asura, their colony ship landed on an inhospitable planet, due to the on-board computer noting it as the only habitable world in the sector it was sent to. What's more, most of the databanks on genetic engineering were corrupted by an archaic virus that attacked the seemingly-obsolete base of the system.

Thankfully for the proto-Asura, there was a disportioncate number of metals on the planet's surface, and they were able to refine them into cybernetic "upgrades that allowed them to survive the hostile environment. Over the thousand-or-so-years between that and contact with the other colony-races, they developed a culture based around domination of the environment and intellectual superiority-so when the other races did contact them, they found an expansionistic race of warrior-scholars who were all to happy to shoo away the elves who had intruded on "their" sector and take over their tech. Given that said elves had long overstayed their welcome among the other races, they were accepted into The Imperium of Terran Races (the Federation of Planets, for demihumans).

So, the question:

How would you make a race of naturally logical people the local variety of pesudo-Klingon?

Crafty Cultist
2009-12-29, 07:41 PM
Maybe they see their mechanical nature as superior to organic life. without the need to eat, breathe and rest they are beyond creatures of flesh.

This could lead to a robot uprising, or they might have a strong code of honor, believing that as superior beings they must act with decency

zoobob9
2009-12-29, 08:09 PM
if you've seen star trek tng, then design something like data's brother(i forget the name)

Chrono22
2009-12-29, 08:20 PM
Well, the first thing you should do is determine the needs and wants of the society.

In a society where people don't need to eat, breathe, or sleep... what else is there? And how would immortality affect the society? Individuals don't age, and even in the case of total physical destruction they can have backup copies of their minds and bodies.

Philosophy, sensation-gratification, and art would play a much larger role in such a society. Also, the conflicts of "individual vs. collective" and the subjective nature of identity would become important.

Perhaps there is an economy based around memory-senso chips? Garnering a new experience, feeling a new sensation and gaining new memories could be just a few credits away.

olentu
2009-12-29, 08:22 PM
if you've seen star trek tng, then design something like data's brother(i forget the name)

Lore I believe.

Mando Knight
2009-12-29, 08:22 PM
Make 'em run on what's effectively Spiral Power (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TengenToppaGurrenLagann). Then do what comes naturally (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LargeHam) from it.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-29, 10:05 PM
Lore I believe.

There's also B4.

Sir_Elderberry
2009-12-29, 10:16 PM
There's also B4.

I don't think either fit. Lore didn't have any honor. Or ethics. Or any real objection to having the entire Enterprise destroyed to feed his buddy. B4 was a) a character in a truly awful movie and b) functionally braindead.

However, to draw other inspiration from Star Trek, remember First Contact, when Data can instantly "turn off" his emotion chip? (Does it fit how it worked in Generations? Nope. But, hey, Data's character got trashed in the TNG movies and blah blah blah trekkierant...) Make them like that. During "civilian" life, they have plenty of emotion--maybe they postively wallow in it, producing art, poetry, philosophy, all as a result of their "emotional" minds and how highly they treasure that part of them that separates them from "mere" machines. In battle, however, they disable that emotion. Their code of honor and ethics is still there, but you can't scare them or tempt them. They are killing machines.

olentu
2009-12-29, 10:21 PM
There's also B4.

Though I do not believe he was named in tng, but it has been some time since I reviewed the relevant episodes.

Sir_Elderberry
2009-12-29, 10:24 PM
Though I do not believe he was named in tng, but it has been some time since I reviewed the relevant episodes.

B4 only appears in Star Trek Nemesis, the last TNG movie.

olentu
2009-12-29, 10:28 PM
B4 only appears in Star Trek Nemesis, the last TNG movie.

Ah that is good as I only remembered mention of some prototypes without names being given outside of the movies.

Sir_Elderberry
2009-12-29, 10:36 PM
Ah that is good as I only remembered mention of some prototypes without names being given outside of the movies.

At the risk of derailing the thread totally, there are only three Soong androids shown in TNG. (TOS had a few other androids that nobody mentions anymore because it makes Data less special.) Data, Lore, another that was designed to not only appear human, but believe it was human.

olentu
2009-12-29, 10:49 PM
At the risk of derailing the thread totally, there are only three Soong androids shown in TNG. (TOS had a few other androids that nobody mentions anymore because it makes Data less special.) Data, Lore, another that was designed to not only appear human, but believe it was human.

That also matches my recollection. It is good to know that my mind is not yet failing me completely.

Mewtarthio
2009-12-30, 04:12 AM
Well, the first thing you should do is determine the needs and wants of the society.

In a society where people don't need to eat, breathe, or sleep... what else is there? And how would immortality affect the society? Individuals don't age, and even in the case of total physical destruction they can have backup copies of their minds and bodies.

Philosophy, sensation-gratification, and art would play a much larger role in such a society. Also, the conflicts of "individual vs. collective" and the subjective nature of identity would become important.

Perhaps there is an economy based around memory-senso chips? Garnering a new experience, feeling a new sensation and gaining new memories could be just a few credits away.

I didn't see any of that in the description of the race. These are cyborgs--living organisms augmented with cybernetic parts--not androids. Nothing suggests that they are immortal, as their organic parts will age normally. It is unlikely that they can make backup copies of their wetware brains unless that sort of technology is available to everyone (even if they developed that on their own, they've still got a membership in an interplanetary alliance that would want the blueprints).

My suggestion, though I don't know how well it'll work out with their imperium, is to make them scary on the offense. Have them use the sorts of weapons that other races consider atrocities: WMDs that leave the ecosystems scarred in the long-term (you can decide whether that's the strategic long term or the geological one). They can handle the aftermath thanks to their cybernetic upgrades (and, indeed, it's still a paradise compared to the Asura Homeworld), but other races will find the planet quite inhospitable.

You could also give them some killer industry that makes their own holdings unappealing to everyone else. What's that, you say? Our once-Earthlike planet now has an atmosphere that's 40% carbon dioxide? Why, even the merest child has an Asuratech Filtration System 3.0 installed, so I don't understand what you're complaining about. And look! We got rid of all those ugly green things (you won't believe the nasty critters we found hiding in them!) and replaced them with a good, old-fashioned radioactive sludge pit! Ah, smell that sweet sulfurous perfume of progress!

Optimystik
2009-12-30, 04:36 AM
Warriors + Logic = The Geth?

Though you couldn't tell from their AI

Reluctance
2009-12-30, 04:55 AM
I don't see this working. Cyborgs that have the technology to make new cyborgs will also have the technology to create killbots, and won't have to wade into the front lines on their own. Cyborgs that lost the technology to create new cyborgs must have all lived the thousand or so years since then, something incompatible with the fatal risks a warrior's spirit entails.

If you absolutely must have individual characters be willing to jump into battle, the best way is probably to say that the process that creates these beings leaves them with chronic mild pain. A simple enough matter to remedy; simply say that any physiological (and, by some unexplained extension, emotional) sensations below a certain threshold is prevented from registering. You now have a race of beings constantly seeking diversion plus, when they can find it, intense stimulation. The expansionism is just a minor cultural detail from there.

kamikasei
2009-12-30, 05:03 AM
So they're not Proud Warrior Race Guys, but Proud Soldier Race Guys. So they're not Klingons, just militaristic. So... what's the question? "They're cyborgs from an inhospitable world, with a society that values intellect and reason, who are expansionist and militaristic." Your description of them seems quite sufficient (unless I've misunderstood it), it just needs to be fleshed out, not have any glaring contradictions resolved.

That said, notes:
- Think about how dangerous their environment is to them. If they're dependent on their technology working well all the time so as to not kill them instantly, they're going to be fairly conservative in at least some respects - innovation and experimentation will be carefully contained so that if something doesn't work out it doesn't cause a disaster. This may bleed over in to other areas of their society. On the other hand, if they're individually able to handle their environment and not dependent on collective systems, they might veer closer to reckless of danger.
- If their society evolved in isolation with just their own surroundings as their enemy, then their behaviour toward other societies is something they've developed recently. Maybe there are layers to them, with other civilizations only encountering the outer, buffering stratum of their society which they created since contact. Indeed, depending on their cloning/uploading tech, maybe their soldiers are a voluntary caste which people can opt in to for a spell (and be resurrected out of after their term), specialized for combat - some are berserkers, some have had their empathy suppressed, etc.
- I'm thinking of both Sardaukar and Fremen.

Randel
2009-12-30, 05:35 AM
A few thoughts:

1. While they are cyborgs, they are also human (or whatever you call them if they are genetically engineered) so they would reproduce the same way that humans do unless you want to go with cloneing or artificial wombs or something like that (though what's the fun in that?)

So these cyborgs would have males and females and would probably enjoy all the benefits thereof (if you know what I mean). Sure there might be a few that see such vulgar acts of biology to be beneith them (and would have those specific features removed as part of their transformation) but expect to have plenty of these guys who are totally okay with having a gender and all the benefits thereof (although some females might decide to have the babies put into a an artificial womb or pod where it can grow safe and secure without them carrying it around... plus if they have mostly cybernetic parts then gaining all that weight could get uncomfortable).

Though, depending on the area, gender roles may be distinct or not since a cyborg could opt to simply have their body reshaped into whatever form they want. There could be males, females, completely gender neutral cyborgs, or cyborgs who've had their bodies reshaped into non-humanoid forms like that of a grizzly bear (or in worse cases, catgirls).

Anyway, there would be children who would be born without any cybernetic parts and would grow up normal until they 'come of age' and start getting the enhancement surgeries. Disabilities such as muscular dystrophy or other health problems would get easily solved by replacing the damaged tissue with cybernetic parts, mentally challanged people would get brain enhancing cybernetic parts to bring them up to normal.

In essence, theirs is a culture and society where practically any excuse for weakness can be cured by replacing the problem with better mechanical parts. If you're a retard, get a doctor to boost your brains memory. If you're still a retard after they fix your brain... then stop fooling around and study!

Also, they can survive and thrive in places that other races can't. If a human spends too much time in zero gravity then they start loosing muscle mass and bone strenght. A cyborg might not even have bones or muscles... and if they do then they might have an auto-excercise system built in to keep them in shape. Thus, they can live in space for far longer than other races.

With colonizing planets, most planets are not earthlike and might not even have a breathable atmosphere. Thus, an inhabitant would need to keep their space suit on all the time or just stay in a sealed environment with life support.

Cyborgs have a built-in life support system that keeps their blood oxygenated and can recycle CO2. They could stay outside for far longer than a normal person on account of having a built-in space suit and because they have less organic mass in them that requires oxygen.

Cyborg workers could spend alot of their working day in airless environments (with a few spare canisters of oxygen around in case it becomes a problem) and then return home to a sealed home with life support. Children would need to stay indoors or wear a space suit because they still need oxygen until they get their implants.

Workers could also be easily transferred from different positions since a cybernetic brain means that you could download instructions for most tasks. Many repedative tasks, clerical work, or things could be handled by simple AI that just sort of guides the worker through his tasks (though he can always shut it off if there is a bug or virus in it).

Thus, anybody who wants to work can do so easily by just showing up and uploading the skillset. With the sheer degree of industrial power that a team of cyborgs could put out, a sizable colony quickly runs out of stuff for them to do. Thus, they are constantly expanding to find new territory to inhabit in order to keep everyone busy (cyborg bums are not pretty, if you've lost hours of your life playing video games or surfing the net then imagine if you had free internet hooked directly into your head and could have video games interface directly to your eyes, ears, and tactile sensors. In worse cases they start to loose touch with reality and start thinking 'tetris' is how they real world actually works)


Soo...

1). Gender roles are flexible, many enjoy the perks of being male or female while others can take whatever role they want as long as they can do their jobs.

2). Not all cyborgs need to be human-like, some might have their brains implanted into more robotic bodies or have their frames altered to give them an advantage in some way.

3). Children grow up mostly like normal human children, its their duty to grow up strong and resourceful for the day when they get their cybernetic parts implanted. Once they get their implants, they become adults. There are also rites of passage to make sure they are ready for it. Wimps who can't stand having their organs and flesh cut out and replaced with metal are not true adults (plus after they get implants there is a period of learning how to properly use it, its like learning to walk or ride a bike).

4. Cyborgs can work in environments that non-cyborgs cant. They can also work harder, better, and faster due to their lowered need for oxygen, the use of AI to assist them, and they built-in tools. An efficient team of cyborgs can get stuff done so fast that all work in an area is done so others have to move out to get new tasks.

5. Jobless Cyborgs are not a pretty sight, with constant access to information, no real need to exercise, and their sensors just as capable of giving them hi-def video gaming experience instead of the real world, if a cyborg isn't busy he can just get trapped in his own virtual paradise. Thus, their culture teaches a need to keep mental discipline (if not outward military discipline then maybe a more buddist like mindset of avoiding distractions and focusing on what must be done).

6. With robotic parts, a cyborgs wounds can be easily repaired. Depending on how much they have replaced, a cyborg could conceivably lose an entire arm in battle and then just slap on a replacement (there might be some standardization in them so that a team of cyborgs could bring along spare parts that they can all use if anyone is damaged). Thus soldiers aren't as worried if they are damaged in battle (as long as it isn't their weak organic parts then there is no worries about bleeding).

7. There is a wide variety of possible cultures, the standard mechanical-logical warrior types are the 'traditional' ones who pilot the starships, become engineers to design and maintain their cyborg parts, colonize the planets and keep it defended from invaders, alien inhabitants, and natural disasters. However, after things settle down then cultures can shift and you get teenagers wanting to paint their chassis with flame-red decorations, get cat ears and tails hooked up to their bodies (for extra balance... or cause everyone else is getting them), some retreat into their own worlds and just hook up into giant mainframes to do research or play around, and a few start getting philisophical and question the nature of humanity and have their brains implanted into vehicles or animal-like bodies or something.

In worse cases, these cultures run wild and you get all sorts of oddly-shaped cyborgs trying to express themselves or find (the perfect solution to the universe) or something. Then some disaster strikes and they start heading back to the traditional militant organized way they were before... but now there are catgirls with razor claws, battle tanks with the brains of video-game addicts, and who knows what other mechanical horrors in store.

After a few wars, they start moving again and they go back towards traditional human-like shapes and traditional mindset.

Randel
2009-12-30, 05:51 AM
Also, traditional values say that every cyborg should know exactly what all their implants and equipement is and how to operate and maintain them at all time.

Maybe cyborg marriages or other couplings include a sort of grooming ritual where one person removes, replaces, and cleans the cybernetic implants of the other one. Since there would be parts that a cyborg can't maintain himself (ie if one arm is broken or damaged then he'd need to fix it before working on the other one... if both are damaged then oops. Plus parts located in hard-to-reach places or ones near the brain or central motor control system).

Thus, ones 'mate' or maybe one of the few or many people that he trusts could basically take him apart and put him back together again to keep him fixed and well-maintained. Allowing one to help in maintaining your cybernetic parts is a big sign of trust.


However in more prosperous or 'decadent' cyborg societies there may be those who don't know how to properly maintain their own systems and prefer to go to shops to get fixed up instead of by loved ones.

paddyfool
2009-12-30, 07:08 AM
So much depends on history. How did these cyborgs get that way? Did they adopt their cybernetics willingly, were they forced on them by others of their own race, or by an alien race, or by some artificial intelligence, or by the exigencies of the need to survive some situation for which their original biology was not equipped?

If you're going for a warrior race, though, one suggestion I've got is this: what if a somewhat caste-structured alien race had a branch of their warrior caste experiment with cybernetic augmentation using willing volunteers. In a time of conflict with some alien race, it later became necessary for most of the warrior caste to adopt these measures, and to take them a lot further; so that at the end of the conflict, it had become obvious to all that they had become something truly different to what they came from - how different, precisely, being up to you. (Also, perhaps, some of the actions they had taken horrified the very race they were defending). So the vast majority of the cyborgs end up splintering off from their parent race, with/without acrimony as you choose, converting now-excessive warships into colony ships and forging a new civilisation of their own. They recognise that others fear them, and maintain high standards of conduct and honour partly for the sake of establishing a good name for themselves. Also, having little territory of their own, they're keen to expand and establish themselves.

You're going to need to work out lots of details here, such as:
- What are the traits of their parent race, and how many of these carry across?
- How cyborg'd up are they, precisely, in both body and mind? If in mind, do they have any kind of groupmind?
- How variable are they in the extent to which they're cyborg'd up? (I'd suggest one or two standard templates specialised for different roles with lots of further potential customisations to bolt on as players see fit).
- How do they respond to members of their parent race/other races/other cyborgs/autonomous AIs etc?
- The children thing discussed by prior posters. Maybe you could make the question of whether, when , and how far to cyborgise children become a matter they're a long way from consensus on?

Leliel
2009-12-30, 03:24 PM
So much depends on history. How did these cyborgs get that way? Did they adopt their cybernetics willingly, were they forced on them by others of their own race, or by an alien race, or by some artificial intelligence, or by the exigencies of the need to survive some situation for which their original biology was not equipped?

It was the best option possible. Read the OP.

You're going to need to work out lots of details here, such as:
- What are the traits of their parent race, and how many of these carry across?

Humans. The tendency towards strong emotions and ambition was carried to the Asura.

- How cyborg'd up are they, precisely, in both body and mind? If in mind, do they have any kind of groupmind?

As much as they are comfortable with-which is, on average, about one-third organic. Their brains are partially replaced, meaning that they are more logical than humans on average, and have a natural resistance to fear. And forget "hivemind"-you're thinking of Borg, which is what I'm trying to aim away from.

- How variable are they in the extent to which they're cyborg'd up? (I'd suggest one or two standard templates specialised for different roles with lots of further potential customisations to bolt on as players see fit).

See above.

- How do they respond to members of their parent race/other races/other cyborgs/autonomous AIs etc?

Depends on the being in question. The Asura, I have decided, are meritocrats. A good epithet to watch out for is "squishy"-they think you're an example of what they moved away from when they became cyborgs in that case.

- The children thing discussed by prior posters. Maybe you could make the question of whether, when , and how far to cyborgise children become a matter they're a long way from consensus on?

This is a point of contention in Asura society, but the tradition is two years-enough to tell if the child is allergic to any implants, and enough to prepare the parents for the inevitable complications that arise.