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Song Bird
2009-12-29, 10:40 PM
is monk really as bad as many said? izzere any way to make them better/optimize them? just out of curiosity (lv 12 i am play fyi)

Optimystik
2009-12-29, 10:47 PM
There are plenty of great prestige classes for monk that overcome their base limitations. I recommend Sacred Fist, though Enlightened Fist and Tattooed Monk can work well with the right feat choices.

Staying a pure monk is usually not worth it, as the class features are not worth what is given up (namely, the middling BAB and lack of good armor/weapons.)

Song Bird
2009-12-29, 10:49 PM
kk thx i will see if my dm let me fix it

ZeroNumerous
2009-12-29, 10:51 PM
The Search Function (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/search.php) is also there. You know, in case you have any questions about monks.

sonofzeal
2009-12-29, 10:54 PM
The Search Function (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/search.php) is also there. You know, in case you have any questions about monks.
I'd recommend using Google ("site:www.giantitp.com monk", no quotes). Faster and cleaner and you don't have to wait to do another search.

Eldariel
2009-12-29, 10:55 PM
...punctuation is your friend.

Other than that, yes, Monk can be optimized. And yes, it's as bad as said. That is, Monk is worse at its job (which is ill-defined as it stands) than any other class. It's not a good frontliner, it's not a good skirmisher and it's not a good skill monkey. That said, you can deal respectable damage with them.

The key issue with a Monk is that it doesn't gain relevant class features on most levels, and its primary class features (Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Damage, AC & speed) are simply used to make up for what it's missing; Flurry of Blows just sorta makes up for not being a full BAB class, Unarmed Damage makes up for not being able to use good weapons (things like reach, two-handed damage, trip attack, critical range, etc. are way more important than base damage), Monk AC bonus tries to make up for not being able to wear armor and speed bonus...overlaps with any other speed bonus being beyond level 10 before you're any faster than anyone else under Haste.


So yeah, you're left with a Fighter with good Will & Ref-saves & Evasion, but worse AC, to Hit, damage, weapon selection, and only 3 bonus feats (as opposed to Fighter's 18, which coincidentally can be used to make up for the poor saves). Not to mention you're left needing 4 very high stats (Str, Dex, Con, Wis) instead of 2 high stats with tertiaries depending on style (Str & Con) a Fighter needs. And a Fighter isn't that powerful to begin with. Now, if your stats are insane (multiple 18s & 16s on pb), you can do a bit better, but even then, the Monk is not amazing.

But basic Monk-advice:
- Get Necklace of Natural Attacks [Savage Species]; Unarmed Strike is one natural attack so you can enchant it for a rather cheap price.
- Get Improved Natural Attack [MM] to improve your Unarmed Damage Category; one of the few good reasons to use Unarmed Strikes.
- Get Enlarged. Another category increase.
- If possible, be a Kalashtar and get Ectoplasmic Fist Shard [Magic of Eberron?] to increase unarmed strike damage by one more category.
- Get some form of pounce to be able to full attack turn 1 of combat, and overall combine your high speed with your multiple attacks. Getting Sphinx Claws-soulmeld [Magic of Incarnum] with Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws + Open Least Chakra: Hands is probably the easiest way.
- Get Monk's Belt/Superior Unarmed Strike [ToB] to progress your Unarmed Strike damage faster.
- If possible, reduce your MAD by focusing on Dexterity with Weapon Finesse + Shadow Blade [ToB].
- Pick up Snap Kick [ToB] for an extra unarmed attack.

In the end, it's always best to take as few levels of Monk as possible. Monk 2/Cleric 4/Sacred Fist -> is very good. Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18 with Tashalatora [SoS] is very good. Monk 1/Wizard 4/Enlightened Fist -> is very good provided you have access to certain buffs. Monk 2/Unarmed Swordsage 6/Shadow Sun Ninja 10 is fine.

Generally, Monk is good for 2-6 levels and after that, gets bad since it gets too little from the levels. Pick something that advances the unarmed damage and multiclass away. Spellcasting helps the most to increase BAB, size categories, To Hit, and to attack while moving and so on.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-29, 10:58 PM
Is it a new monk thread week already?

Optimystik
2009-12-29, 11:00 PM
Going along with the Kalashtar suggestion, multiclass to Psychic Warrior and pick up the Tashalatora feat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070212a&page=5) to get all the best parts of monk with little sacrifice.

sonofzeal
2009-12-29, 11:05 PM
is monk really as bad as many said? izzere any way to make them better/optimize them? just out of curiosity (lv 12 i am play fyi)
First question to ask yourself: "do I want to play a Monk, or do I want to play a monastic martial artist who doesn't rely on armor and weapons?" If the latter, see if you can get your hands on Tome of Battle, and check out the Swordsage (unarmed variant). Played right it'll look like a monk, act like a monk, fight like a monk, and hit like a mac truck. It'll also have a lot more variety in the combat techniques it can use.

If the former, here's the second question to ask yourself: "do I want to play a pure Monk, or can I expand on their abilities with appropriate features from other paths?" If the latter, see if you can get your hands on "Secrets of Sarlona" and check out the Tashalatora feat, in combination with this class (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm). Played right it'll effectively be a monk whose "ki" powers work a little differently and are sometimes more flashy, but the result is pretty similar in flavour and a lot more powerful.

If you really want to play a straight Monk... well, have fun. There's a few good guides out there; I suggest making heavy use of them.

Temotei
2009-12-29, 11:05 PM
as opposed to Fighter's 18

Err...the fighter doesn't get eighteen bonus feats. Even if you're human or some other race that gives a bonus feat at level one, that's still only twelve.

Also, yeah. Punctuation and spelling are nice. Read the forum rules before posting if you're not positive that it'll be okay.

Eldariel
2009-12-29, 11:11 PM
Err...the fighter doesn't get eighteen bonus feats. Even if you're human or some other race that gives a bonus feat at level one, that's still only twelve.

Yeah, Fighter gets a total of 18 feats counting level-ups. Sorry about that. Should be 11, of course.

Song Bird
2009-12-29, 11:18 PM
wooops, never realized there would be so much monk threads i am srry:smalleek: and thanks to all that helped :smallredface:

Temotei
2009-12-29, 11:20 PM
wooops, never realized there would be so much monk threads i am srry:smalleek: and thanks to all that helped :smallredface:

Look around. In about every thread on monks, there's a joke about how it's that time of the week again. Which, incidentally, means every day, and sometimes then some. :smallamused:

Mando Knight
2009-12-29, 11:27 PM
There are plenty of great prestige classes for monk that overcome their base limitations. I recommend Sacred Fist, though Enlightened Fist and Tattooed Monk can work well with the right feat choices.

Staying a pure monk is usually not worth it, as the class features are not worth what is given up (namely, the middling BAB and lack of good armor/weapons.)

Now, Sacred Fist... there's a right way and a wrong way to go about entering the class. The right way is to dip into Monk, then switch to Cleric, topping it off with Sacred Fist after you meet the prereqs. It'll look and act like a fist-crazy lawful melee guy in a gi, especially after you activate your Cleric-powered self-buffing routine, but it'll be much better than straight up Monk thanks to also being a Cleric.

See also:
http://www.worldofmunchkin.com/game/img/Munchcard2.jpg

Optimystik
2009-12-29, 11:46 PM
If the latter, see if you can get your hands on "Secrets of Sarlona" and check out the Tashalatora feat, in combination with this class (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm). Played right it'll effectively be a monk whose "ki" powers work a little differently and are sometimes more flashy, but the result is pretty similar in flavour and a lot more powerful.

You don't need Secrets of Sarlona at all - WotC put the feat online in the free excerpt. Follow the link I posted.


Now, Sacred Fist... there's a right way and a wrong way to go about entering the class. The right way is to dip into Monk, then switch to Cleric, topping it off with Sacred Fist after you meet the prereqs. It'll look and act like a fist-crazy lawful melee guy in a gi, especially after you activate your Cleric-powered self-buffing routine, but it'll be much better than straight up Monk thanks to also being a Cleric.

True - although make sure you have room for all 10 SF levels in your build, 10/10 casting and full BAB is amazing.

You can also make him LG and pick up Intuitive Attack (BoED) for WIS to attack rolls, eliminating your MAD and making you a deadly gish.

sonofzeal
2009-12-29, 11:59 PM
You don't need Secrets of Sarlona at all - WotC put the feat online in the free excerpt. Follow the link I posted.

All I see is "stack psionic class level with monk levels for bonuses". That's not exactly sufficient, since it stacks for certain things but not others (like speed, which other classes do stack for). I believe you still need Sarlona for the actual text, or at least get it quoted to you by someone who does have it.

Optimystik
2009-12-30, 12:05 AM
All I see is "stack psionic class level with monk levels for bonuses". That's not exactly sufficient, since it stacks for certain things but not others (like speed, which other classes dostack for). I believe you still need Sarlona for the actual text, or at least get it quoted to you by someone who does have it.

That still doesn't mean you need the book; just have your DM decide what "bonuses" the feat refers to. I'm not sure there's anything else in the book worth paying for anyway.

It has the prerequisites; that's all I need, personally.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-30, 02:10 AM
Giacomo's monk in the Test of Spite dungeoncrawl (check my sig) is something you will want to see and compare to other melee builds.

You will immediately notice that he has less HP, damage output, AC, and AB. Plus, no weapon enchantments, which are good and fun. He has a spiked chain he is not proficient in, so he can only really make trip attacks with it.

He gets better saves, Evasion, flurry, and bonus feats, the most important of which is Improved Trip.

Consider his performance relative to other melee builds and draw your own conclusions. It is my opinion that he does not perform as well at dishing out damage, taking damage, controlling the battlefield, or defending as a fighter or barbarian.

Good saves though.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-30, 03:43 AM
For the record, he has 93 hp. A level 12 fighter with the same Con score has 106.5 hp on average, which only goes up after a Con boosting item, which he'd be able to afford due to not having spent resources on UMD.

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-30, 09:28 AM
Since I built and play the 12th level monk build that Pharao's Fist mentioned some more comments of mine:

- the setting is 28-point-buy with core rules only. I do not think it is possible to create an overall better tank with a barbarian or fighter with this restriction. Forgot to include a cheap wand of enlarge, though.
- the hp difference to fighter and barbarian hardly matters, since the monk can heal the equivalence of 4 CON
- the damage output matches that of most tank builds. Only those that are fully devoted to damage-dealing are better here-at the cost of similar AC and less skills and vastly lower saves than this monk.
- improved trip is a key feat for a tank build. The monk gets it as a bonus feat without requirements. Thus he does not need an INT score of 13 and is thus less MAD than fighter and barbarian.
- interestingly, Pharao's fist forgot to mention the dimension door ability of the 12th level monk - which saved his wizard in the most recent encounter:smallsmile:

But of course, monks can also be built as scouts, assassins, spies or anti-wizard specialists. With some efforts, they make a solid core base class.
Currently I cannot post the link to the core monk guide I once did. It can be found by searching for "Sir Giacomo's guide to monks".

- Giacomo

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-30, 10:47 AM
S
- the setting is 28-point-buy with core rules only. I do not think it is possible to create an overall better tank with a barbarian or fighter with this restriction. Forgot to include a cheap wand of enlarge, though.
I like Krag (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=30547).


- the hp difference to fighter and barbarian hardly matters, since the monk can heal the equivalence of 4 CON
You get knocked into the negatives 40 HP quicker than, for example, Krag. I'd not call that "hardly mattering." Healing 24 points of damage is good, but it doesn't make up for a smaller pool of hit points.


- the damage output matches that of most tank builds.
Your melee damage output is the same.

However, a fighter or barbarian can pull out a bow. How's your monk's ranged damage? Limited to 10 ft increment, 1d2 damage shurikens I believe? Seems a mite inferior to archery.

Monks can use crossbows, which deal higher base damage than their bow counterparts, but cannot benefit from a strength modifier. They also do not allow for iteratives.



Only those that are fully devoted to damage-dealing are better here-at the cost of similar AC.
Your AC is AC 18 normally, and 21 with Mage Armor. A suit of +1 Full Plate and Dex 14 gives AC 21. Items and use of the Combat Expertise feat can increase it from there.


and much less skills
Barbarians get as many skill points/level as your monk. Rangers get more.


and vastly lower saves than this monk
Krag has Fort+20, Ref +6, and Will +15. Your monk's saves are Fort +13 (+15 vs spells), Ref +12 (+14 vs spells), Will +13 (+15 spells, +17 vs enchantment).

Just some food for though.


- improved trip is a key feat for a tank build. The monk gets it as a bonus feat without requirements. Thus he does not need an INT score of 13 and is thus less MAD than fighter and barbarian.
You do not mention that to take full advantage of the monk's skills, it is best to have an Int score above ten. Your monk, for example, has low Move Silently and no Hide at all. If I remember correctly, this was touted by you as an advantage that monks had over other melee classes.


- interestingly, Pharao's fist forgot to mention the dimension door ability of the 12th level monk - which saved his wizard in the most recent encounter:smallsmile:
It was useful. But keep in mind that a fighter with a Cape of the Mountebank has the same ability. Infact, Krag has one in his equipment sheet.
It's a monk ability that the fighter doesn't have, but he can spend money to duplicate it. And in the end, isn't that what matters the most?:smallsmile:

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-30, 11:35 AM
Pharao's Fist, we have already discussed these two builds and we should not derail the thread here. My opinion remains: your build is good, but not better. I leave it to others to make up their mind.

Some more general comments:
- do not overestimate power attack for damage. The monk has more attacks, with more attacks at highest BAB. Also, to use power attack fully, you probably need to fight without a shield (the animated kind being quite expensive). Together with a rage, you end up with quite low AC, too (note also that the monk can boost his AC by +7 with a shield spell and fighting defensively with tumble.)
- if you do not think that suffering possibly 3d6 damage per round in combat with the vicious enhancement on top of the other damage you need to soak up for the group is a problem, then I really am at a loss what to say.(it actually eats up a +1 CON bonus to hp every round)
- the saves of your build are good, but overall not as good as that of the monk, in particular when considering that your build cannot rage in all encounters and the monk's immunities to poison and disease.
- 10,000 gold for a dimension door is quite a lot of cash for a level 12th pc

- Giacomo

Tyndmyr
2009-12-30, 11:49 AM
Since I built and play the 12th level monk build that Pharao's Fist mentioned some more comments of mine:

- the setting is 28-point-buy with core rules only. I do not think it is possible to create an overall better tank with a barbarian or fighter with this restriction. Forgot to include a cheap wand of enlarge, though.
- the hp difference to fighter and barbarian hardly matters, since the monk can heal the equivalence of 4 CON

Having more hp is better than making up the difference via healing, due to the dangers of big crits.

Also, I believe using Wholeness of Body takes an action, no? Im not 100% certain, since I never take that many levels of monk, but if so, that reduces it to near uselessness.


- the damage output matches that of most tank builds. Only those that are fully devoted to damage-dealing are better here-at the cost of similar AC and less skills and vastly lower saves than this monk.

Mmm? I've never seen even a tank build making use of non-proficient weapons. Well, almost never. Reach weapons are also pretty common in tanks. Especially if fighter is involved(and a dip often is), there are plenty of feats to spare one on proficiency. Also, a large list of proficiencies is common in other tank classes.

See also, full BaB.


- improved trip is a key feat for a tank build. The monk gets it as a bonus feat without requirements. Thus he does not need an INT score of 13 and is thus less MAD than fighter and barbarian.

Monks do need wisdom for class abilities, though, which neither a fighter or barbarian does.

Yes, monks can be optimized quite a bit...but you face some significant disadvantages.

Comparing say, a fighter or barb to a monk at level 12, fort saves will be equal, other saves will be 4 less, bab will be will be 3higher, hp will be higher, you get a bunch of proficiencies and you'll have either better class features or a pile of feats. A hybrid of the two works particularily well.

All else being equal, the non-monk ends up being a lot more threatening and probably tougher to boot.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-30, 11:51 AM
Pharao's Fist, we have already discussed these two builds and we should not derail the thread here.
And yet... you respond with quite a few comments. I am receiving mixed signals.

When one wants to stop derailing a thread, one generally... stops derailing a thread. Actions to the contrary only make your request seem hollow at best.



Some more general comments:
- do not overestimate power attack for damage. The monk has more attacks, with more attacks at highest BAB.
You do not necessarily get more attacks. A TWF build gets as many attacks as you do, I believe.


Also, to use power attack fully, you probably need to fight without a shield (the animated kind being quite expensive).
Though Rings of Protection and other items are still on the table.


Together with a rage, you end up with quite low AC, too (note also that the monk can boost his AC by +7 with a shield spell and fighting defensively with tumble.)
Krag has shield too, for the record. And by fighting defensively, you take a penalty -4 to your AB. +12 as your highest attack per round isn't very impressive. You may not be getting hit, but if you're not killing the target that means you're not defending other people against it.


- if you do not think that suffering possibly 3d6 damage per round in combat with the vicious enhancement on top of the other damage you need to soak up for the group is a problem, then I really am at a loss what to say.(it actually eats up a +1 CON bonus to hp every round)
If it dies faster, it reduces the other damage I need to soak up. If I am indeed taking 3d6 damage per round, I am dealing out 6d4+30 at least, without PA or factoring in my natural attacks. That's an average of 45 damage in exchange for 10.5 damage. Seems like a fair trade.


- the saves of your build are good, but overall not as good as that of the monk, in particular when considering that your build cannot rage in all encounters and the monk's immunities to poison and disease.
You can't DD in all encounters either, but you seem to have forgotten to mention that.


- 10,000 gold for a dimension door is quite a lot of cash for a level 12th pc
And those wands were cheap?

Tyndmyr
2009-12-30, 11:54 AM
(note also that the monk can boost his AC by +7 with a shield spell and fighting defensively with tumble.)

You're fighting defensively, have a class with partial BaB and are using a weapon you aren't proficient in.

And yet, you claim to do good damage....damage that compares with a raging, power attacking barbarian.

This is just not possible.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-30, 11:56 AM
He uses his unarmed strikes for damage.

His AB with his Unarmed Strikes, while fighting defensively will be +12.

mikej
2009-12-30, 12:04 PM
@Sir Giacomo

So how exactly are you keeping up with a Raging Barbarian using Power Attack? Detail numbers would be nice.

Since I'm assuming this isn't "core" only discussion. Stuff like Leap Attack and Frenzy Berserker are not off the table.

Side Note; Right now, my current FB build in some random one-shot campaign laughs at this claim. I'm not really a fan of either ( I wrote up FB because "meh" ) class but my moneys is on the Barbarian.

SparkMandriller
2009-12-30, 12:08 PM
Oh look.

It's this discussion again.


I was missing it so much.

mikej
2009-12-30, 12:11 PM
Oh look.

It's this discussion again.

I was missing it so much.

Is just me, or did this week seem to have more? That and VoP threads.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-30, 12:14 PM
Yes, Giacomo's presence always adds unique flavor to an argument. Kudos to him and his determination.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-30, 12:16 PM
So how exactly are you keeping up with a Raging Barbarian using Power Attack? Detail numbers would be nice.
Part of the answer lies in keeping things in core.


Since I'm assuming this isn't "core" only discussion. Stuff like Leap Attack and Frenzy Berserker are not off the table.

Sir Giacomo only really does core discussions and builds, since he believes that core is perfectly balanced.


Anyways, his monk deals 4d6+7 damage (average 21). I'm not sure what damage a generic barbarian will deal, but mine does 2d4+11, average 16, normally, 19 when raging, 26 when using a Vicious Spiked Chain. PA would obviously increase it further.

SparkMandriller
2009-12-30, 12:20 PM
Is just me, or did this week seem to have more? That and VoP threads.

At least they didn't involve the exact same people on both sides. D:

Glyde
2009-12-30, 12:27 PM
Give monk PrCs full BAB, make them automatically proficient in all monk weapons, and get a lenient DM in terms of item workings (Brawlers Gloves for example.)

That's what I did and the character was enjoyable to play, however he didn't compare too well to the other characters in the party (Chain fighter, Rogue/Swordsage/Assassin, Dread necro, and straight sorcerer). He did, however, have his crowning moments. He pulled the enemy commander off a cliff, once. That was fun.

The character itself used to be a Wu Jen, but retrained to monk (Story reasons. I admit he was a lot more powerful as a Wu Jen. Something about demonic possession and him having to repent.) so he kept a few class skills from the Wu Jen list and three cantrips. That group only went up to 8th/9th level before going on hiatus, so I can't really compare higher levels.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-30, 12:29 PM
He pulled the enemy commander off a cliff, once. That was fun.

Surely you mean bull rushed...

mikej
2009-12-30, 12:29 PM
Sir Giacomo only really does core discussions and builds, since he believes that core is perfectly balanced.


I didn't know you get internet connection under that rock.

I've seen a Monk deal more damage on two separate occasions. It was more focused on triggering AoO but it was rather effective. Of course I was just starting out and I thought the Monk's 12/12/12 saves were utterly "broken."

Edit: One was also a Werewolf, but heck, it's still core :smallwink:

Tyndmyr
2009-12-30, 12:41 PM
He uses his unarmed strikes for damage.

His AB with his Unarmed Strikes, while fighting defensively will be +12.

So, 20 strength, then? Given that it's core, and he's not using enlarge? Still, +12 doesn't seem particularily good for your highest bonus.

A 12th level barb with the exact same strength, + raging, will pull off a +19. Presumably said barbarian will also get weapon enchants.

27 AC is pretty normal for ECL 13 mobs(though they range up to 34). Reach is also getting pretty common among mobs at this level.

So basically, the spiked chain is utterly worthless at doing damage. Getting into melee range for the monk is going to be painful, and he has no viable ranged option. Once in melee, his odds of hitting range are slim at best, and terrible for iteratives.

Sure, you can boost him with magic items...but the same is true of the barb. Why not just start off with the better basis?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-30, 12:45 PM
Anyways, his monk deals 4d6+7 damage (average 21). I'm not sure what damage a generic barbarian will deal, but mine does 2d4+11, average 16, normally, 19 when raging, 26 when using a Vicious Spiked Chain. PA would obviously increase it further.

Being that I am forgetful, I forgot that Giacomo's monk is permanently enlarged while my Barbarian casts Enlarge Person on himself. I shall include enlarged damage now.

My normal damage when enlarged should be 2d6+13, or 20. 23 when raging, 30 when using the Vicious Spiked Chain. If I PA for 6 so my AB is the same as Giacomo's monk, I get a final damage of 42, twice his damage.

If I were charging, Rhino Hide armor would give another +2d6 to the damage.

When making a single attack, the raging barbarian is superior.

When making multiple attacks, his monk has +16/+16/+16/+14 I believe.

With the aforementioned PA in place, I have +16/+11, with an additional +5 natural claw attack for 1d10+19 damage if I have my calculations in place.

The damage here may come out to be similar. I am not sure how to calculate further, so I'll have to leave it to someone else.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-12-30, 02:55 PM
It should be noted that the barbarian build is less reliant on full-round attacks, which is desirable.

Bayar
2009-12-30, 03:20 PM
Oh look.

It's this discussion again.


I was missing it so much.

Next time, use this handy image macro:

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/bayar_m2003/1259732841915.jpg

Sir Giacomo
2009-12-30, 07:00 PM
Sigh. I give up for now. Check the builds everyone, and see for yourself what of the numbers and capabilities are correct.

- Giacomo

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-30, 08:53 PM
It would be more helpful if you let people know where to find your build. as it is tucked away and not readily available. I have taken the liberty of posting it for you here.


12th level Dwarf Monk (Giamonk tank variant style); Lawful Good
STR 24 (15 start, 3 stat gain, +2 size, +4 enhance), DEX 14 (+2 enhance, -2 size), CON 16 (+2 racial), INT 10, WIS 16 (+2 enhance), CHR 6
FEATS: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (Monk bonus feats), Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes (Monk bonus feat), Weapon Focus/Unarmed Attack, Improved Trip (Monk bonus feat), Improved Natural Attack, Blind-Fight, Stunning Fist (12/day, DC 19)
SPECIAL: Improved Evasion, Slow Fall 60ft, Ki-Magic/Lawful, Purity of Body (immune to Disease), Wholeness of body (24 hits/day), Diamond body (immunity to poison), Abundant Step (Dimension door 1/day). Dwarf racial traits (including 60ft Darkvision).
SKILLS: Move Silently +9 (DEX, 6 ranks, MW item), Hide 0 (DEX, -4 size, MW item), Spot +25 (WIS, 15 ranks, MW item, eyes), Listen +20 (WIS, 15 ranks, MW item), Use Magic Device +5 (CHR, 5 ranks, MW item), Spellcraft +3 (1 rank, MW item), Tumble +14 (DEX, 8 ranks, MW item, synergy), Jump +28 (STR, 5 ranks, MW item, synergy, move).
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills (450 gp), Masterwork spiked chain, cold iron (650), beads of bless 1/day (600), Pearl of Power, level 1 (1,000), Cloak of Resistance +2 (4000), Lesser Rod of Extend (3,000), 50 Masterwork Shuriken, silvered (410), Eyes of the Eagle (2,500), Belt of Giant Strength +4 (16,000), Amulet of WIS +2 (4,000), Boots of Speed (12,000, usually worn), Slippers of Spider Climb (4,800), Hat of Disguise (1,800), Bracers of AC +1 (1,000), Ring of Protection +1 (2,000), Ring of Spell Storing (18,000; usually with obscuring mist, shield and bless weapon), Permanently enlarged at lvl 16 CL (3,460), Gloves of DEX +2 (4,000)
WAND BUDGET: 8250.
2x Wands of CLW, 1x Wand of lvl 2 Mage Armour, 1x wand of lvl 1 mage armour, 2x wand of shield, 2x Wand of Obscuring Mist, 1x Wand of Bless Weapon. Potions of bless weapon and magic fang.
- For this adventure, I assume there are only 10 charges per wand, as per DMG p. 199 for one-shot adventures. EDIT: just noticed that others also have one-shot items without higher prices and/or less charges. But I guess it does not matter, anyhow.
OTHER EQUIPMENT 20 days of trail rations, backpack, 5 flasks or 1.5 litre water each, explorer's outfit, monk's outfit, bedroll, shoevel, 5 (empty) scrollcases, 2 belt pouches, 2 50ft silk ropes, 5 torches, flint&steel, 10 tindertwigs, 12 gp.
INITIATIVE: +6 (DEX, feat)
MOVE: 60ft (60ft climbing)
AC 18 (WIS, DEX, monk, bracers, deflection, size), 21 with mage armour. Possible boosts: +1 (haste), +4 (shield), +3 (fighting defensively).
Touch AC: 17
HITS 93 (max d8 at first level, CON). Current: 93
SAVES: Fort +13 (+15 vs spells), Refl +12 (+14 vs spells), Will +13 (+15 spells, +17 vs enchantment)
BAB: +9/+9/+9/+4
TRIP: +15 (STR, feat, size) +19 vs opponent trip attemts (dwarf)
GRAPPLE: +24 (+24/+24/+24/+19)
UNARMED ATTACK: +16 (+16/+16/+16/+11); Damage 4d6 +7
SPIKED CHAIN ATTACK: +12 (+12/+7), Damage 2d6+10

Charges/stuff spent so far:
1 day of rations for food and water
6 charges of shield spell
15 charges for CLW spells
1 charge of bless weapon
2 charges of obscuring mist spell
14 charges mage armour lvl 2 spell
1 charge mage armour lvl 1 spell
3 shuriken

4.5 encounters, 2 respawns

Incidentally, may I recommend The Tangled Web RPG Profiler or Myth Weavers to you? It allows you to store an online character sheet which is easier to fill out and read.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-30, 11:02 PM
I personally enjoy Monks because they are a good secondary combatant and have a lot of cool playability. (Note: This entirely stems from watching too many Hong Kong Kung Fu movies and playing way too much MK)

I once ran a 40th level warforged Monk17/Initiate of Dragonic Mysteries10/Acolyte of the Fist10/Fist of the Forest3 named Alpha Omega. I dealt more damage overall than our Half-Giant Goliath Warblade ever did with his near Colossal greatsword. The sorcerer of the party always had me within 20ft so he and the cleric could keep Alpha Omega alive. Only our rogue/ninja/lurk/assassin didn't like me, but he could climb up a skyscraper with his fricken balance check!

Glyde
2009-12-30, 11:13 PM
Surely you mean bull rushed...

Nah, pulled. Got enough lucky rolls to pull him over the side in a grapple. We both went tumbling down and the DM let Kala roll a tumble to reduce falling damage while the enemy commander was now in range of said chain-fighter.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-30, 11:28 PM
From Giomoco's monk build:

AC 18 (WIS, DEX, monk, bracers, deflection, size), 21 with mage armour. Possible boosts: +1 (haste), +4 (shield), +3 (fighting defensively).

So, since bracers of armor, and mage armor fail to stack, he has an AC of 26 with all buffs up, 29 if fighting defensively.

This doesn't seem like a terribly impressive tank at level 12. Not horrible, mind you, but not amazing, given the magic dependancies and the hit to attacking.

Also, even with masterwork skill items everywhere, a lot of his skills aren't that hot. UMD is only at +5, for example. This means the wands only work on a 15+, making it rather expensive and action inefficient to buff.

With spellcraft at a whopping +3, he typically wont know what's being cast, either.


This monk has only two things, really. High strength, and decentish AC if he does manage to get buffed.

olentu
2009-12-31, 01:21 AM
Hmm. Perhaps a comparison would be helpful.

I think I have added these correctly.

Unbuffed: AC 18, Touch 17, Defensive 21/20

Buffed: AC 26, Touch 18, Defensive 29/28

Versus.

Abyssal Greater Basilisk: Attack +25
Young adult Bronze Dragon: Attack +23/+18/+18/+18/+18/+18
Frost Worm: Attack +21
Kolyarut: Attack +11/+6 touch, or +10 touch, or +13/+8, or +11/+6
Kraken: Attack +28/+28/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23
Leonal: Attack +20/+20/+15 Rake +20/+20
Monstrous Scorpion, Colossal: Attack +34/+34/+29
Elder Black Pudding: Attack +19
Purple Worm: Attack +25/+20
Eleven-Headed Pyro/cryohydra: Attack +16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16
Roper: Attack +11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+11 touch/+13
Mature adult White Dragon: Attack +27/+22/+22/+22/+22/+22

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-31, 01:23 AM
You should also include the AC of the monsters.

olentu
2009-12-31, 01:26 AM
You should also include the AC of the monsters.

Well I suppose I should not foist the work off on others.

Temotei
2009-12-31, 01:40 AM
Sir G gave up because he lost. Just saying.

Also, Pharaoh--two-weapon fighting can actually amount to more attacks than flurry of blows if you take one extra feat (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting). One more gets you another attack. Another feat gets you that last attack, giving you eight attacks (although, I think this last one is in PHB II or something). Mind you, those last attacks for your off-hand are probably going to miss, but they're still extra hits, which is Sir Giacomo's argument, and yours.

+15/+15/+15/+10/+5 vs. +18/+18/+13/+8/+3 (Two-Weapon Fighting and a light weapon in off-hand). I'd rather take the latter, personally. Not to mention the monk is more dependent on Wisdom and, arguably, Constitution (d8 hit dice mean they need to make up for it with more Constitution, right? Even if you say no, they still need more Wisdom, and Constitution is equally important, making them more MAD).

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting -- +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+3
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting -- +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3

Sure, you don't need a feat to get flurry of blows, but Two-Weapon Fighting is superior. Try again. :smallsigh:

olentu
2009-12-31, 01:43 AM
{table="head"]Name|Attack|AC|Touch|Defensive
Monk (Unbuffed)|+16/+16/+16/+11 or +12/+7|18|17|21/20
Monk (Buffed)|+17/+17/+17/+17/+12 or +13/+13/+8|26|18|29/28
Versus| | | |
Abyssal Greater Basilisk|+25|17|8|
Adult Brass Dragon|+24/+19/+19/+19/+19/+19|27|9|
Young adult Bronze Dragon|+23/+18/+18/+18/+18/+18|26|9|
Frost Worm|+21|18|8|
Kolyarut|+11/+6 touch, or +10 touch, or +13/+8, or +11/+6|27|11|
Kraken|+28/+28/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23|20|6|
Leonal|+20/+20/+15 Rake +20/+20|27|13|
Monstrous Scorpion, Colossal|+34/+34/+29|26|1|
Elder Black Pudding|+19|1|1|
Purple Worm|+25/+20|19|4|
Eleven-Headed Pyro/cryohydra|+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16|21|9|
Roper|+11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+11 touch/+13|24|10|
Mature adult White Dragon|+27/+22/+22/+22/+22/+22|28|8|
[/table]

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-31, 07:34 AM
It seems that both sides will be able to hit each other fairly consistently, on average.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-31, 10:26 AM
Monk (Buffed), fighting defensively:
Highest BaB: +14
Highest AC: 29

Average of monsters in that table:
Highest BaB: +23.82 -Did not include touch monsters. If adjusted appropriately, would not significantly impact chance to hit
AC: 21.62 -Darned black pudding dropping the average.

Yeah, it's pretty close in pure chance to hit. Now, the mobs will tend to have higher hit points, and in certain cases, abilities that make them much nastier than just this average shows. The cryohydra would probably kill the monk with a single full attack damn near every time. The dragons fly, and have breath weapons + spellcasting, and so forth. The mobs also tend to have much better iteratives.

I just don't see this monk as a very effective tank. He has no DR or miss chances, okish, but not great hp, and not enough AC to do much mitigation of incoming attacks. He'd be lucky to be still standing when facing most of those mobs for two turns.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-31, 10:39 AM
I just don't see this monk as a very effective tank. He has no DR or miss chances, okish, but not great hp, and not enough AC to do much mitigation of incoming attacks. He'd be lucky to be still standing when facing most of those mobs for two turns.

Now, to be fair to Giacomo, we must show how an effective tank would do in this situation.

Sir Giacomo
2010-01-07, 02:42 PM
Now, to be fair to Giacomo, we must show how an effective tank would do in this situation.

This seems to have failed...:smallwink:

- Giacomo

Roland St. Jude
2010-01-07, 05:06 PM
Sheriff: The OP seems to have gotten what he wanted out of this thread and we really don't need to go around and around on this again between the same parties.