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mr.fizzypop
2009-12-29, 11:51 PM
For my next 3.5 DnD session I have planned to have a undead boss. More specifically a specter. The only problem I've been having is the the cleric's ability to use turn undead. I don't want to ruin a boss by having it flee/cower at the first round of combat. The cleric is 6th level and even though I plan on bumping up the specter's HD, his Cha modifier is high enough that he'll succeed. Is their any way I can counter this problem, without dening the clerics right to use turn undead?

Gorgondantess
2009-12-29, 11:53 PM
There should be a feat somewhere, likely in Libris Mortis, that gives him a bonus against turning checks. Otherwise, you could always just give him a +4 plot bonus to resist turning checks: maybe just homebrew the feat.

Darius Rae
2009-12-29, 11:53 PM
Up the specter's turn resistance a few and add in some lesser HD undead. The cleric will turn all the low level undead and have the boss to worry about.

Edit: Ninjaed

Eldariel
2009-12-29, 11:55 PM
There should be a feat somewhere, likely in Libris Mortis, that gives him a bonus against turning checks. Otherwise, you could always just give him a +4 plot bonus to resist turning checks: maybe just homebrew the feat.

Yes, there's "Turn Resistance" or whatever in Libris Mortis. There are also spells and items to that effect.

mr.fizzypop
2009-12-29, 11:56 PM
I'm confused about the turn resistance, what does this add to?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-29, 11:57 PM
I'm confused about the turn resistance, what does this add to?His HD for the effect of Turning. I'm also curious how high your Cleric's mod is, turning generally isn't very effective.

mr.fizzypop
2009-12-30, 12:01 AM
Thanks for the advise, I'll give him the feat from the libris mortis.

@Sstoopidtallkid: I believe it's at least a +3, but he has a magic item that increases his turn bonus.

Crow
2009-12-30, 12:06 AM
Why don't you tie the spectre to some object in it's domain or haunt or place of origin. So long as the object is intact, he will either keep coming back, or cannot be destroyed/turned. He is supposed to be a boss, so a little plot magic is fair play.

Even with a feat, a lucky roll can nix him no problem. Not every solution has to be by the rules.

Carden
2009-12-30, 12:10 AM
Add in some more undead that stay closer or have the specter spring attack from/to cover (Turn affects undead closest to you first/ no turning an undead with total concealment to you.) Have a long hallway full of columns and coffins. Keep the cleric busy with the lesser undead while the rest of the party deals with the specter, or vice versa. You could also have it be a chase encounter. Nothing says realistic like "When I made it afraid of me, it ran away!"

RandomLunatic
2009-12-30, 12:23 AM
Frankly, I am not seeing the problem. With a Spectre's 7 HD and +2 turn resistance, your Cleric needs a 19 or better on his turning check to even have a chance at affecting it.

And even if he does manage to get lucky and succeed, so what? It is incorporeal with a fly speed of 80'. It runs away screaming through the wall or floor, at your option. High-fives and congrats all around.

About three minutes later, the Spectre comes back. And guess who it is gunning for this time...:smallamused:

This is why Turn Undead sucks.

Cespenar
2009-12-30, 03:02 AM
Have the area permanently Desecrate'd. It can add to the atmosphere as well.

Keld Denar
2009-12-30, 04:25 AM
There is a PrC in LM called Emphemeral Exemplar for incorporial undead that gives resistance to turning. Other than that, you can give it different feats than the ones the MM gives, and there is a feat in LM that increases turn resistance. Also, the above suggestion of Desecration (or Unhallow) would make it more difficult to turn, but would also make EVERYTHING much more difficult to turn.

ericgrau
2009-12-30, 05:00 AM
His HD for the effect of Turning. I'm also curious how high your Cleric's mod is, turning generally isn't very effective.
... at high levels, and only if you don't get the right items. This has been thoroughly debunked before at least in another forum. This is a low level cleric and he has a turn boosting item. Whether from a circlet of persuasion or phylactery of undead turning, he has about a 50:50 chance even against an advanced spectre.

I agree that turn resistance is the best way to handle the tough undead types. Another +2 is reasonable if you have the fluff for it; more is railroading. Or desecrate is a good idea too. As said the spectre can always come back after 10 rounds. But this is still a tremendous advantage to any smart cleric giving the PCs time to heal and buff while the spectre may already be damaged.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-30, 05:15 AM
... at high levels, and only if you don't get the right items. This has been thoroughly debunked before at least in another forum. This is a low level cleric and he has a turn boosting item. Whether from a circlet of persuasion or phylactery of undead turning, he has about a 50:50 chance even against an advanced spectre.

I agree that turn resistance is the best way to handle the tough undead types. Another +2 is reasonable if you have the fluff for it; more is railroading. Or desecrate is a good idea too. As said the spectre can always come back after 10 rounds. But this is still a tremendous advantage to any smart cleric giving the PCs time to heal and buff while the spectre may already be damaged.

Eh, Spectres can have cleric buddies for healing.

ericgrau
2009-12-30, 05:23 AM
Yes, conveniently stationed exactly 1600 feet away (the range that it flees) in the random 3 dimension direction that it happens to go, and only as effective as the PC cleric if he's strong enough to be more of a major ally to the specter than a random henchman. "Can" is a bit of a weasel word like that.

Though otherwise a cleric friend is reasonable for other things like desecrate since it's only a 2nd level spell, and, well, being stationed in the actual fight (rather than far away).

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-30, 06:00 AM
Yes, conveniently stationed exactly 1600 feet away (the range that it flees) in the random 3 dimension direction that it happens to go, and only as effective as the PC cleric if he's strong enough to be more of a major ally to the specter than a random henchman. "Can" is a bit of a weasel word like that.

Though otherwise a cleric friend is reasonable for other things like desecrate since it's only a 2nd level spell, and, well, being stationed in the actual fight (rather than far away).

Well, it doesn't need to be conveniently located.

Double the time (10 rounds for fleeing, 10 rounds for returning) and you get the minimum return time.

Double that, and you have enough time for him to go to a cleric stationed somewhere in the area. Also, he doesn't need to be as effective as the PC cleric.

He just needs to be able to throw down a couple Inflict spells to heal the Spectre up. We're not talking about buffzilla. At levels where a Desecrate is a standard and reasonable buff to be laid down, the cleric Could drop an Inflict Moderate Wounds and a couple Inflict Light Wounds, and chances are, the Spectre's back to full health.

Zeta Kai
2009-12-30, 06:21 AM
Why don't you tie the spectre to some object in it's domain or haunt or place of origin. So long as the object is intact, he will either keep coming back, or cannot be destroyed/turned. He is supposed to be a boss, so a little plot magic is fair play.

Even with a feat, a lucky roll can nix him no problem. Not every solution has to be by the rules.

I like many of the other within-the-rules solutions, but this is the best answer, IMO.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-30, 09:10 AM
... at high levels, and only if you don't get the right items. This has been thoroughly debunked before at least in another forum. This is a low level cleric and he has a turn boosting item. Whether from a circlet of persuasion or phylactery of undead turning, he has about a 50:50 chance even against an advanced spectre.He needs to hit 9 HD. Since the Phylactery is 11 K, I'll assume it's the Circlet. I'll further assume that the +3 comment earlier was without the Circlet factored in. The Cleric still needs to roll a 13 or higher to affect a by-the-book Spectre. Trading out Alertness for the Turn Resistance feat makes it impossible for the Cleric to ever affect him. And even if the Cleric does affect him, the Spectre simply vanishes underground for the next 2 minutes. It's a borderline worthless ability.

Lysander
2009-12-30, 09:40 AM
Another way of blocking turn undead is to surround the guy with some low level undead minions. Any attempt to turn him will hit them first, and they'll count against the total HD your cleric can turn.

robotrobot2
2009-12-30, 09:52 AM
If the cleric can use items that boost turning checks, give the spectre an item that boosts turning resistance. It should have a base price of about 1,000-2,000 gp times the bonus squared, and once the PCs win, they get extra treasure as well.

Lysander
2009-12-30, 09:56 AM
Or, if you're that concerned that turning will be a problem, build the encounter around the turning ability.

Make the spectre unkillable until some magic item tying it to this world is destroyed. However it can be effectively turned. The cleric's job is to ward off the spectre while the party fights through its minions and finds and destroys the item.

ericgrau
2009-12-30, 11:15 AM
He just needs to be able to throw down a couple Inflict spells to heal the Spectre up. We're not talking about buffzilla. At levels where a Desecrate is a standard and reasonable buff to be laid down, the cleric Could drop an Inflict Moderate Wounds and a couple Inflict Light Wounds, and chances are, the Spectre's back to full health.
The PC cleric OTOH may easily be a buffzilla. And if turne again the NPC cleric is out of spells, barring a significant investment into a "maybe" strat. I'd also think that the boss is guarding something or else that the PCs are hunting him somehow. Otherwise why fight at all? He can just leave. 20+ rounds to act as you please is almost always a big advantage, except in World of Warcraft where players and mobs have no purpose except to meet and fight eachother, which this ain't.

Everyman
2009-12-30, 01:40 PM
Or, if you're that concerned that turning will be a problem, build the encounter around the turning ability.

Make the spectre unkillable until some magic item tying it to this world is destroyed. However it can be effectively turned. The cleric's job is to ward off the spectre while the party fights through its minions and finds and destroys the item.

This. This is a wonderful idea. It not only keeps the battle from taking a single round, but it gives everyone a job to do.

Though, keep in mind that a cleric only gets so many turn attempts a day. I don't know if your cleric will run low or out before the encounter, but a few undead encounters PRIOR to the showdown would help limit how much the turn ability controls the battle.

Keld Denar
2009-12-30, 03:01 PM
Ephod of Authority is a 700 g vest in the MIC that gives a +1 effective turn level. Its like a 1/4 Phylactery at a fraction of the cost. That's probably what he has, I'm guessing, and is a bigger impact than a Circlet of Persuasion.

mabriss lethe
2009-12-30, 03:37 PM
Other solutions.

-sealed doors that only open if a cleric succeeds on a turn/rebuke check. (that one's in the books somewhere.) Give him other uses for his turn attempts so that *at best* he only has one or two left when he gets to the main fight.

-Protection from Good/evil/law/chaos should do the trick.


Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature. Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast. This second effect works regardless of alignment.

RebelRogue
2009-12-30, 07:14 PM
Isn't it a bit unfair against the cleric player, if he's actually optimized for this kind of situation?

taltamir
2009-12-30, 07:17 PM
turn undead is a sub par tactic that is extremely situational at best...
And you want to deny your cleric the mere CHANCE of using it?
just tell him he can't turn undead and be done without... otherwise it is not exactly fair to the player... besides which, as people mentioned...
he needs to roll a 19 to turn it, and then it just means the specter flys away at max speed until it runs out and it comes back.


Isn't it a bit unfair against the cleric player, if he's actually optimized for this kind of situation?

not a bit, a lot, extremely!
Do you HAVE to have an undead as a boss? if the cleric intentionally came to hunt down and destroy an undead, then he should have an advantage, that is what he is built to do... might as well somehow make a mageslayer character unable to slay mages...

If the BBEG is not already known the players and does not have to be undead due to plot reasons... why not make the BBEG a living necromancer instead?

Crow
2009-12-30, 07:54 PM
There is no need to buff the Spectre to un-turnable levels. Just use my idea from earlier and tie the Spectre to an item or alter of some sort. You have to take out the alter or he either keeps coming back, or cannot be turned. After the item/alter is toast, turn away. It doesn't punish the cleric, and it gives everyone a job to do, especially if the alter is protected or item is being worn by a minion.

Otodetu
2009-12-30, 10:51 PM
Can't see the problem with just running things as written, one thing the op has not mentioned is whether the cleric has the sun domain or not.

A cleric with the sun domain could defeat the spectre with a standard action, a bit anti-climatic, but pretty cool for the player in question, if it does turn out that is the case, then so be it.

Add another challenge if the first one is a bit anti-climatic.
Or just punish the player for trying to use turn undead (a ****ty ability as soon as the cr increases)

Flarp
2009-12-30, 10:56 PM
Homebrew a feat.

Entitle it <Boss Name>'s <Synonym of Shield (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/shield)>.

Have it grant immunity to/massive resistance against turning.

All done.

Aldizog
2009-12-30, 11:06 PM
A cleric with the sun domain could defeat the spectre with a standard action, a bit anti-climatic, but pretty cool for the player in question, if it does turn out that is the case, then so be it.
One-shotting the BBEG would be amazingly cool, memorable, and fun for the player in question, especially if a) he interrupts the BBEG's monologue to do so, and b) he both needs and gets a decently high roll on the d20.

taltamir
2009-12-30, 11:09 PM
Can't see the problem with just running things as written, one thing the op has not mentioned is whether the cleric has the sun domain or not.

A cleric with the sun domain could defeat the spectre with a standard action, a bit anti-climatic, but pretty cool for the player in question, if it does turn out that is the case, then so be it.

Add another challenge if the first one is a bit anti-climatic.
Or just punish the player for trying to use turn undead (a ****ty ability as soon as the cr increases)

why punish him... are you saying the sun domain should be useless? a sun domain cleric means he is an undead slayer. he gave up power elsewhere to focus on fighting the undead, don't arbitrarily take that away.

Temotei
2009-12-30, 11:14 PM
Frankly, I am not seeing the problem. With a Spectre's 7 HD and +2 turn resistance, your Cleric needs a 19 or better on his turning check to even have a chance at affecting it.

And even if he does manage to get lucky and succeed, so what? It is incorporeal with a fly speed of 80'. It runs away screaming through the wall or floor, at your option. High-fives and congrats all around.

About three minutes later, the Spectre comes back. And guess who it is gunning for this time...:smallamused:

This is why Turn Undead sucks.

...where the cleric waits with undeath to death, magic circle against evil, some walls (fire, etc.), etc.

Then there's the low-HD undead mooks--the army of undead so commonly portrayed in media.

A cleric well prepared can destroy any undead within a couple of rounds, if not less--alone. With a party, it's that much easier.

Turn undead has its uses.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-30, 11:15 PM
The PC cleric OTOH may easily be a buffzilla. And if turne again the NPC cleric is out of spells, barring a significant investment into a "maybe" strat. I'd also think that the boss is guarding something or else that the PCs are hunting him somehow. Otherwise why fight at all? He can just leave. 20+ rounds to act as you please is almost always a big advantage, except in World of Warcraft where players and mobs have no purpose except to meet and fight eachother, which this ain't.

If the PC cleric manages to turn twice (a feat that's at about 35% chance each time, by current thread analysis), then perhaps the spectre may not be at full life.

Then again, if I were a turned spectre, after getting healed once, I wouldn't approach the scenario in the same fashion. I'd lurk along behind, and hit when the party is engaged, distracted, or otherwise in a bind.

The definition of insanity is repeating the same action and expecting different results. If one thing doesn't work, provided your minion is at least moderately intelligent (spectres are), then you change your plan. Giving something the opportunity to return when you're at your weakest is rarely a wise idea. If you have an intelligent and dangerous enemy with reason, desire, and motive to kill you...

It's not wise to leave it ambulatory and out of your sight. Especially when it is perfectly silent, and can generate negative levels. Heck, one successful surprise attack on a level 9 cleric, and his chances of turning go to abysmal. 3 touches, and it's impossible. Add in that they can attack from floors or walls, removing LoE for a Turn, and turning begins to look worse and worse.


...where the cleric waits with undeath to death, magic circle against evil, some walls (fire, etc.), etc.

Then there's the low-HD undead mooks--the army of undead so commonly portrayed in media.

A cleric well prepared can destroy any undead within a couple of rounds, if not less--alone. With a party, it's that much easier.

Turn undead has its uses.
So... clerics can rememorize spells or fill empty slots in a couple minutes? Because otherwise, those aren't guaranteed spells to have. Alternately, the spectre has a lot of time, and an intelligence score above "barbarian". The odds of it immediately re-engaging are low. It's more likely to wait for the next challenge, and wade in.

RandomLunatic
2009-12-30, 11:52 PM
...where the cleric waits with undeath to death, magic circle against evil, some walls (fire, etc.), etc.How is your cleric prepping these spells so fast? Or did he have them prepped already? In which case, how come he did not use those instead of an attack that has a slim chance of making him run away, and a larger chance of doing nothing at all?


Then there's the low-HD undead mooks--the army of undead so commonly portrayed in media.Generally speaking, anything with low HD was not a threat in the first place, so you just skipped a boring fight. Unless you only have a few HD yourself, in which case you are not going to affect much, as Undead tend to have high HD for their CRs.


A cleric well prepared can destroy any undead within a couple of rounds, if not less--alone. With a party, it's that much easier.Any well-prepared X can beat any Y, for sufficient values of "well-prepared".


Turn undead has its uses.Sure. For fueling Divine and Devotion feats. Not for repelling undead.

Darcand
2009-12-30, 11:58 PM
I ran into a problem similiar once. I included ghost-gates, a home brewed barrier that caused a negative level effect to any living that passed through, but could be shut down for one round by using a turn attempt.

The cleric burned all of his turns and still got to feel special by being the only one in the group able to beat the problem.

It's also exactly the type of thing an undead afraid of turners might have in their lair, so it makes perfect sense.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-31, 12:13 AM
I ran into a problem similiar once. I included ghost-gates, a home brewed barrier that caused a negative level effect to any living that passed through, but could be shut down for one round by using a turn attempt.

The cleric burned all of his turns and still got to feel special by being the only one in the group able to beat the problem.

It's also exactly the type of thing an undead afraid of turners might have in their lair, so it makes perfect sense.

Death Ward would likely be useful, in those cases.

Darcand
2009-12-31, 12:56 AM
Death Ward would likely be useful, in those cases.

Useful, true, but rare is the cleric willing to burn one or more 4th level spells per party member rather then using up turn attempts.

Otodetu
2009-12-31, 10:20 AM
Homebrew a feat.

Entitle it <Boss Name>'s <Synonym of Shield (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/shield)>.

Have it grant immunity to/massive resistance against turning.

All done.

yea,. it is the negate cleric class feature feat, I don't like this approach at all, and neither will the players if they find out.

Much better to just give it improved turn resistance (feat from libris mortis) if it is that important to keep it from being turned...

Turning just makes it run away after all.

tyckspoon
2009-12-31, 10:23 AM
yea,. it is the negate cleric class feature feat, I don't like this approach at all, and neither will the players if they find out.

Much better to just give it improved turn resistance (feat from libris mortis) if it is that important to keep it from being turned...

Turning just makes it run away after all.

Unless you're dealing with somebody who has access to Greater Turnings, in which case being turned means it is instantly disintegrated from a single unresistable standard action which is not very hard to optimize.

I'd probably go with giving the boss a protective item that works something like a Rod of Absorption that would eat the first (X) HD worth of Turning Damage.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-31, 10:32 AM
Or, you know, don't do anything? If it doesn't work, which is likely, you have a nice boss fight. If it works, your players get a memorable tale about the time they pwned that specter.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-31, 10:55 AM
Isn't it a bit unfair against the cleric player, if he's actually optimized for this kind of situation?

Yeah. Don't deny him the chance to shine. Throw enough undead at him(pick stuff thats dangerous, but that he can turn effectively) that he burns through his turning pre boss fight.

Choco
2009-12-31, 11:01 AM
Yeah. Don't deny him the chance to shine. Throw enough undead at him(pick stuff thats dangerous, but that he can turn effectively) that he burns through his turning pre boss fight.

He can still shine via Disruption or invisibility to undead and such :smallbiggrin:

but yeah, many minions to turn/destroy would probably make him feel better.

Otodetu
2009-12-31, 10:20 PM
Throw in some fodder, like some shadows or something, if he has greater turning that is.

If he is just a plain "run away for a bit" cleric then don't change anything.

Grommen
2009-12-31, 11:06 PM
Toss in a rightous Desecration spell (-3 to the turn roll) on the bugger room and be done with it. If the cleric thinks to turn undead (Something my players don't do a lot of), and makes the roll. Well high 5 him and say good job!

Coarse it's the BBEG's house and he'll eventually come back so they have only managed to buy a little bit of time. Perhaps they will have set up shop to prepare to fight the thing when it returns.

Or worse...This was one of my favorite fights from a module in a game ever.

We opened the door and found a bunch of ghouls (we were low level at the time), so we turned them. The one ghoul ran down a corridor to the room where his big brother lived a Ghast. In a few rounds the door to the hallway bursts open and a screaming horde of undead comes screaming out looking for blood!

So lets say your cleric does manage to turn the BBEG. Have him wait it out, call in some "Friends" and then rush the party. They get their thrill of scaring off the BBEG, you get to assualt the party with the BBEG and a screaming horde of undead. Total Win/Win here. :smallsmile:

Roderick_BR
2010-01-01, 12:24 AM
Frankly, I am not seeing the problem. With a Spectre's 7 HD and +2 turn resistance, your Cleric needs a 19 or better on his turning check to even have a chance at affecting it.

And even if he does manage to get lucky and succeed, so what? It is incorporeal with a fly speed of 80'. It runs away screaming through the wall or floor, at your option. High-fives and congrats all around.

About three minutes later, the Spectre comes back. And guess who it is gunning for this time...:smallamused:

This is why Turn Undead sucks.
This. The boss will hiss at the cleric, and back away. Then try to use ranged attacks/powers and/or minions, until he can try to attack the cleric.
Also, the cleric need to go double the boss's HD in effective turning check. Being that the turn check gives a maximum of +4, the cleric would need to be at least 14th level, and roll a 20 on the d20. And when rolling "turn damage", he needs to spend 18 points on it, but any lesser undead "soaks" this damage up first, lessening the impact on the boss.
I'd say he's fairly safe from a direct dusting.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-01, 01:13 AM
This. The boss will hiss at the cleric, and back away. Then try to use ranged attacks/powers and/or minions, until he can try to attack the cleric.
Also, the cleric need to go double the boss's HD in effective turning check. Being that the turn check gives a maximum of +4, the cleric would need to be at least 14th level, and roll a 20 on the d20. And when rolling "turn damage", he needs to spend 18 points on it, but any lesser undead "soaks" this damage up first, lessening the impact on the boss.
I'd say he's fairly safe from a direct dusting.

Sun Domain is the method most have been talking about for dusting. It just makes any undead normally turned, destroyed instead.

That said, while you do need double the effective level required for a standard turning to destroy an undead, you do not need to use double the turning damage. Effective level 18, and 9 "turn damage".

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-01, 01:23 AM
Sun Domain is the method most have been talking about for dusting. It just makes any undead normally turned, destroyed instead.

That said, while you do need double the effective level required for a standard turning to destroy an undead, you do not need to use double the turning damage. Effective level 18, and 9 "turn damage".Effective level 18 is the issue, though. Assuming the Circlet and 16 Cha, neither of which is guaranteed, he's looking at needing a 13 to Turn the boss. And the boss is likely going to focus on the Cleric after the first attempt, meaning he's \going to need a 15+ for the second attempt. And a 17+ for the third. There won't be a fourth. If the Cleric gets lucky, let him. If he's focused more on turning, allow him to shine here. If you really want to preserve the combat, swapping a single feat makes it literally impossible to Turn the Spectre as a 6th level Cleric. But turning doesn't have much of a chance anyways.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-01, 01:32 AM
Effective level 18 is the issue, though. Assuming the Circlet and 16 Cha, neither of which is guaranteed, he's looking at needing a 13 to Turn the boss. And the boss is likely going to focus on the Cleric after the first attempt, meaning he's \going to need a 15+ for the second attempt. And a 17+ for the third. There won't be a fourth. If the Cleric gets lucky, let him. If he's focused more on turning, allow him to shine here. If you really want to preserve the combat, swapping a single feat makes it literally impossible to Turn the Spectre as a 6th level Cleric. But turning doesn't have much of a chance anyways.

As far as I know, Spectres come, out of the box, with a Turn resistance of +2. Where are you getting <Effective level 18> to successfully turn?

Zaydos
2010-01-01, 01:33 AM
Does his magic item just increase his roll for turning checks (if so what is it so I don't buy it) or actually increase his effective turning level (like Ephod of Authority). Because if he turns as a cleric above his normal level then this might be dangerous (if he turns it on less than a 10 for example). If it is just check then let him be, it runs, it comes back and they fight. The cleric gets rewarded for actually using his powers and isn't penalized for having them.

If it's something that raises his level swap the feat for turn resistance. It'll make it so that the cleric still gets something without knowing it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-01, 01:35 AM
As far as I know, Spectres come, out of the box, with a Turn resistance of +2. Where are you getting <Effective level 18> to successfully turn?Someone earlier posted it for dusting, i was quoting them. My numbers used level 9, though.

Golden-Esque
2010-01-01, 01:35 AM
For my next 3.5 DnD session I have planned to have a undead boss. More specifically a specter. The only problem I've been having is the the cleric's ability to use turn undead. I don't want to ruin a boss by having it flee/cower at the first round of combat. The cleric is 6th level and even though I plan on bumping up the specter's HD, his Cha modifier is high enough that he'll succeed. Is their any way I can counter this problem, without dening the clerics right to use turn undead?

Tips:

#1 - He's a Specter. Give him spells / abilities that make him look living to begin. Be creative; he's a boss after all.

#2 - Tie him to a relic or some other object in the room; while its intact, he's immune to turning.

#3 - Add a lot of low-level Undead that would be affected by Turn before the boss.

#4 - Use any of the feats or magic items that grant Turning Resistance.

#5 - Take the Cleric out of the fight. Perhaps open a "Portal to the Spirit World" or whatever and give him some of their own problems to worry about.

Ozymandias9
2010-01-01, 01:53 AM
yea,. it is the negate cleric class feature feat, I don't like this approach at all, and neither will the players if they find out.

Your players would seriously have an issue with a BBEG having access to an ability that negates theirs and isn't available to them? I make every major undead boss immune to turning. I even note if if there are no clerics in the party. If you can't find a plot reason to justify it, then the BBEG clearly isn't very Big or Bad.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-01, 02:00 AM
Your players would seriously have an issue with a BBEG having access to an ability that negates theirs and isn't available to them? I make every major undead boss immune to turning. I even note if if there are no clerics in the party. If you can't find a plot reason to justify it, then the BBEG clearly isn't very Big or Bad.The part I can't even understand. Players will want that ability. If they're necromancers, they want it for their creations, Necropolitans want it for themselves, and Evil Clerics want it for their mindslaves. If every major boss has it, then you'll have a hard time denying it to them, and quite frankly, if you can't make decent opposition to the players using printed material and the CR rules, then I am shocked. If the Cleric has optimized turning to the point where Imp Turn Resistance isn't enough, then the BBEG deserves to die and the Cleric deserves to shine. He could choose between a spoon and a Swiss Army Knife and picked a spoon, let him eat some soup.

Thurbane
2010-01-01, 04:14 AM
It depends on your group. The groups I have played in accept that sometimes the bad guys or other NPCs have access to things the players do not (all part of rule 0). Although I do agree that over doing it is poor form.

Cyanic
2010-01-01, 10:26 AM
Haters be hating the hand wave immunities :smallbiggrin:

Irreverent Fool
2010-01-01, 12:23 PM
Frankly, I am not seeing the problem. With a Spectre's 7 HD and +2 turn resistance, your Cleric needs a 19 or better on his turning check to even have a chance at affecting it.

And even if he does manage to get lucky and succeed, so what? It is incorporeal with a fly speed of 80'. It runs away screaming through the wall or floor, at your option. High-fives and congrats all around.

About three minutes later, the Spectre comes back. And guess who it is gunning for this time...:smallamused:

This is why Turn Undead sucks.

This. My players have learned to fear fleeing enemies more than those who fight to the death. When an enemy flees it takes with it valuable knowledge of the party's make-up and attacks and generally flees to reinforcements or at the very least its employer.

While clerics certainly have other options available to them, removing his ability to turn (whether by-the-book or not) will probably come across to the player as unfair and unfun. I think the lesser undead idea is the best way to accomplish your goal without making the player feel as though a section of his character just became worthless. But I also think the suggestion to simply allow it to be turned (assuming good enough rolls) is great fun. Just make sure that if the cleric succeeds you let the party feel as though they've won. It'll be that much more satisfying when it jumps out of a wall again.

obnoxious
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Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-01, 02:58 PM
It depends on your group. The groups I have played in accept that sometimes the bad guys or other NPCs have access to things the players do not (all part of rule 0). Although I do agree that over doing it is poor form.But why is that necessary in this situation? Turning is already difficult, you can make it impossible with little effort, so why use homebrew DM fiat? Yes, a ritual by the Orc priesthood to block the sun so they can invade the civilized world easier probably shouldn't be accessible to the players, but this isn't something difficult. It's Turn Undead. you can get resistances to it easily, and really, the Cleric should be rewarded for being good at it.

Yuki Akuma
2010-01-01, 03:09 PM
Send them up against hordes of lesser, easily-turnable undead before they reach the boss. That way the Cleric likely won't have any turn attempts left.