Tomes of Inherent Bonuses

[Aldizog]

I didn't want to derail the VoP thread with this tangent, so here it is.

Optimizers seem to regard the ability-boosting tomes to be as much a part of a high-level PC's standard equipment as a pair of boots. How often do you all see the tomes in actual games? How often and where are they for sale? How often do PCs craft them? At what levels do you get them, and of what bonuses?

Here's my experience: The 3.5 campaign that I played in went to 20th; the party found a Tome of Int +2 at around 19th level, and a Tome of Str +1 at 20th. The party had no wizard (sorc instead), so the Int tome wasn't all that useful.

A Tome requires an individual capable of casting Wish or Miracle to create. This individual is expected to sacrifice a large chunk of XP to create a tome for sale to increase the power of some other powerful adventurer. The only benefit to the crafter is cash, which he or she could just create by using said Wish or Miracle. For the more powerful tomes, they have to actively delay taking a level to have the XP available for crafting. So why would anybody ever create one of these for sale? I can see arguments for making them for a specific person (one's overlord, or a trusted ally). But for sale?

If you're a DM, do you use the DMG guidelines for where items can be bought? All need a metropolis, but the +4 and +5 Tomes are beyond the "gp limit" of even that, so is it necessary for you to include a planar metropolis in your campaign? If you place one in treasure, do you have a good explanation for why the previous owner didn't use it?

[Longcat]

With WBL guidelines, and magic items generally being available for sale, they get used a lot in our games. Depending on the class, though, it rarely amounts to more than 2 tomes per PC.

[Surgo]

While inherent bonuses always see use in my games, the Tomes never see use because Planar Binding always comes into play.

We just expect everyone to be running around with the +5 inherent bonuses to all their stats after level 11 or so. It works out fine as long as every PC has it.

[dsmiles]

As a DM, no. I do not feel like magic items can be "bought." Characters get what they get in the random treasures belonging to creatures they disposed of. Unless I feel that they need a specific item for an upcoming adventure, then that'll be in there too. Gods have mercy upon them if they "accidentally" sell it before they need it...MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!
:smallbiggrin:

[Killer Angel]

I can see arguments for making them for a specific person (one's overlord, or a trusted ally). But for sale?


in almost 17 years of DMing, My players found only a +2 tome, made exactly for this reason (gift for an overlord, never used).
But I can see tomes being used in builds on forums, not only for sake of semplicity (it's raw) but because, for high levels PCs, you can suppose to be yourself an Overlord...

[Zaydos]

When I played high level I put them in and allowed them to be bought. I houseruled that if you had already used a +2 tome and used a +4 tome you got the benefit of the +4 tome and instead of no longer working it was now a +2 tome. The melee combatant and DMPC used this. The warlock might have. They got maybe +2 to +4 to one stat this way.

As far as my observations from that time (strongest caster at -3/-4 casting levels and woefully unoptimized): the unoptimized caster had a good offense and decent defense able to temporarily exceed the knight's defense and offense (the knight wasn't only unoptimized but shot in the foot so this doesn't say much) and unable to actually match the warlock's survivability (he was built for it); back on track the high bonus tome helped the caster the most, the others would probably have done best to get +2 to 2 or other items, but for the caster further stat boosts to his (already split between Int and Wis) casting stat were much more useful than anything else on the table.

[Tyndmyr]

They get used...but the price keeps it rare. Wishes are actually more common ways of getting inherent bonuses, in my experience. Same end result, though.

It's not often that characters actually max out all inherent bonuses, mind you, but I've seen +5 on primary casting stat, etc.

[valadil]

I've mostly seen them in games where the PCs start out high level and have more money than they know what to do with. You really need to have that money all at once. They're just too expensive to save up for, since you're shorting yourself of loot while saving.

The one exception I can think of was a +2 Tome of Con (Bodily Health?) I gave a group of level 10s. None of them liked having hit points as much as other abilities, so they had some seriously gimpy con scores. (I think their logic was that the GM would always scale encounters to the group, so if they had higher HP they'd just get hit harder. I even got whinged at for critting the 10 con monk for 50 damage, even though he did that every turn without critting...). Anyway, everybody sort of wanted the Tome. But because it was such a disproportionate amount of the wealth they received, they couldn't justify giving it to any single PC. Instead they sold it and split the gold. Ingrates.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I don't tend to play high level, but a level 10 game I'm in just picked up a +1 Dex tome. If I were DMing, I'd definitely let a party quest for tomes, provided they were of appropriate levels. Voyage to a metropolis, where you get sent to a planar organization, which can arrange for a friendly hermit-wizard to craft the tome, if you can secure a large deposit of crystallized positive energy...

It's relatively easy to explain why tomes are lying around. The guy you just killed only recently obtained the book, and hasn't finished the required downtime of reading.

Also, I strongly object to your generalization regarding "optimizers". "Optimizers seem to regard". Who, exactly, are you referring to? Hardcore optimizers planar bind to get inherent bonuses. Casual optimizers don't regard tomes as a given. The only optimizers left, the moderate ones, still aren't the unified crowd you paint them as.

[Aldizog]

To me, the Tomes are one of the most problematic examples in the magic item economy. I don't like magic shops in general, but Tomes make it even worse by raising the question of "Who is making this, and why?" Only a few beings in the world can likely craft it, and the downside to the crafter is just immense.

The other horrific example is dragonhide fullplate, of course. Requires the skin of a colossal dragon, and is presumed to be available for sale in every small city.

[Tyndmyr]

Always, always consider gold costs of loot. In the last campaign, everyone in the party was given a Ring of Dragon Friendship. I believe that's worth what, 27k gold to me? Yeah, I'm gonna dump that in a heartbeat to pump my casting stat further.

One of the biggest advantages of random loot is that player ideas of good loot and DM ideas often vary. I value things that keep me alive quite highly. Anyone else in my party would look at half the things I collect and instantly sell them.

[mikej]

I've seen the Tomes being used in almost every game. It's almost certain among our group. Everyone ( including the DM when he plays ) love them and is a are part of the WBL like anything else. My last serious character, 15th lv Druid, used two Tomes.

[Glyde]

When my group starts at more than level 1 and we're going by WBL, they have to run their shopping list by the DM. If things like "Six tomes of strength!" are on there, then the DM vetos it. Though personally, I've never even seen a Tome of Stat +x in-game before.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Dragonhide is a nightmare. Gets B& real quick, or adjusted so that the required material is more appropriate for the cost.

But tomes aren't quite so mind-shattering. Tomes, based on their cost, are legendary, epic magic items. (epic, not Epic). They must be obtained in legendary, epic ways. Tomes don't sit in a "shop" (neither do most magic items, because that's just begging for an armed robbery). They're commissioned.
The magic item cost represents paying for gifts to "grease the wheels", paying couriers to set up connections with the crafter, paying freelance adventurers to do the menial work of collecting power components like Wraith Dust, et cetera. Ideally, most of the magic item cost will consist of a "quest reward", which the crafter mage will give in return for retrieving a vial from the Fountain of Youth and XP-less Crafting, or something.

[ericgrau]

+5 at any reasonable level comes only from a generous DM. They are expensive. +5 to all stats pre-epic breaks WBL twice over.

Roleplaying-wise, I could see them as a portable way to ship power from one major evil guy to another, assuming teleportation wards are always up. 1,250 gp per +1 is a very reasonable cost for portability. One may be in the first evil guy's lair, or en route to the second one. I wouldn't expect one to be sitting on the shelves collecting dust for eons unless the first evil guy died before he could send it. Or they may be comissioned as said, or a dump stat sold by legendary adventurers.

[Samb]

I have never encountered a tome in my 20 years of gaming. Although I have encountered manuals, and even the BoED (the item), but those are minor relics so it is assumed they were created under extradinary circumstances.

As for magic item shops, I never had a DM make extensive use of them past anything item with a level above 6-7, and that is only in magic heavy worlds like Eberron, planescape and FR. Dark Sun? You're if you have an iron sword passed down as a family heirloom.

[dhampir984]

Optimizers seem to regard the ability-boosting tomes to be as much a part of a high-level PC's standard equipment as a pair of boots. How often do you all see the tomes in actual games? How often and where are they for sale? How often do PCs craft them? At what levels do you get them, and of what bonuses?

Since I started gaming in the mid 80's, I've come across tomes exactly one time in one campaign. And it was a fairly broken style campaign compared to almost all of the others I've played in. But that was that particular DM's style.

Lots of loot and ways to level very quickly from 1 to get into the mid-teens and higher, which is where he liked to play in.

He had a good placement for the tomes, all locked away in a super magical library of ancient tomes and such. So that made sense for them to be there, just not accessible when and how we had access to them.

But after that one time? Nope. My players don't look for them. I don't give them. I occasionally plant treasures mostly suited for the characters every 4 levels or so to help them make up for the lack of access to shops, wizards and such where they can spend money or craft. Otherwise it's fairly random and not that high up the magic item tables.

[Aldizog]

The magic item cost represents paying for gifts to "grease the wheels", paying couriers to set up connections with the crafter, paying freelance adventurers to do the menial work of collecting power components like Wraith Dust, et cetera. Ideally, most of the magic item cost will consist of a "quest reward", which the crafter mage will give in return for retrieving a vial from the Fountain of Youth and XP-less Crafting, or something.
Yes, I am a fan of this approach, where it is an item that the PCs quest for, where the crafter is a defined NPC in the world with goals and a personality (he's epic, if not quite Epic), and where some part of that quest avoids the XP cost for the crafter.

[SparkMandriller]

If you're going to restrict access to tomes because nobody would craft them just to sell them, shouldn't you restrict a lot of other things too? Weapons, armour, like half the list of items.

This is one of those things that's best just left alone, before the entire economy explodes, I always thought. As long as I don't look at it, there is no problem. No problem.

It's not like tomes come cheap, anyway.

[mikej]

wow, the posts about time spans not seeing any. Is it really that bad for some plus? Most players love to gain some bonus ( either by state enhancement item or better weapons ) why would the Tomes be soo much worse?

[Aldizog]

wow, the posts about time spans not seeing any. Is it really that bad for some plus? Most players love to gain some bonus ( either by state enhancement item or better weapons ) why would the Tomes be soo much worse?
Because there are very few conditions under which a near-epic caster would be willing to lose several thousand XP creating it. Ever met a PC who would do that?

The problem with just giving out Tomes as part of WBL when creating a high-level PC is that you are assuming that somewhere in the world there is a 3-Int 3-Wis 19-Cha Sor18 who is easily persuaded by "Ooh, shiny gold!" to spent a HUGE part of his very life essence in crafting an item that will have no benefit to him.

Making it a quest reward, or defining who is creating this item and why, goes a long way to alleviating the problems of Tomes.

[Curmudgeon]

I make them freely available, as commissioned items in large cities. Find a high level Cloistered Cleric with Craft Wondrous Item and put down a deposit on what you want. But mostly people just buy Miracles for a +1 inherent bonus. Why not? Both Wish and Miracle can be used to make those books, but Miracle doesn't have the same back-to-back casting requirement that Wish does for those ability boosts.

[ericgrau]

wow, the posts about time spans not seeing any. Is it really that bad for some plus? Most players love to gain some bonus ( either by state enhancement item or better weapons ) why would the Tomes be soo much worse?
They're just expensive compared to what you get. Both to make and to buy. They can come into play at very high levels, but even then you're not going to be able to afford or find one for every stat. I've heard the argument that crafting isn't worth the XP before, but that one has been thoroughly debunked to show you get more than you pay. The real issue is that tomes are expensive by any measure until very high levels.

Magic item shops won't have something so crazy expensive b/c that would be like going down to your local car dealer and getting not merely a Ferrari, mind you, but an honest to goodness McLaren F1. Must be commissioned or so on, as said.

[Douglas]

Miracle also doesn't have "gives a +1 inherent bonus" on its list of things it can do. That is only inferred from the possibility of using Miracle as the prerequisite spell for making a Tome, and any limitations or lack thereof on such an inferred capability must also be inferred.

Granted, I find the non-stacking all-or-nothing must-be-back-to-back thing to be stupid and absurd given the linear cost and fixed maximum, but RAW does not clearly allow Miracle to grant inherent bonuses at all.

[mikej]

Because there are very few conditions under which a near-epic caster would be willing to lose several thousand XP creating it. Ever met a PC who would do that?

It give players some motivation in obtaining them. At least in our group. Different viewpoints I guess.


Making it a quest reward, or defining who is creating this item and why, goes a long way to alleviating the problems of Tomes.

Well, of course. At least half of them I've seen were rewards not simply bought at the "magi-mart."

[Foryn Gilnith]

The problem with just giving out Tomes as part of WBL when creating a high-level PC is that you are assuming that somewhere in the world there is a 3-Int 3-Wis 19-Cha Sor18


The problem with just giving out Tomes as part of WBL when creating a high-level PC


giving out Tomes...when creating a high-level PC

It's during character creation. Presumably, since you're high-level, you've quested a lot; and one of those quests was to get a tome. It's like the PHB says about your 1st-level starting gold: you didn't walk into town with a wheelbarrow of copper coins and buy your equipment; you got the equipment during your training. High-level characters don't take their tons of liquid wealth and convert it into magic items - they just have magic items.

I think you're inventing this problem. If tomes aren't seen as quest rewards and don't have a definite maker, they're problematic. But when are tomes not quest rewards? When do tomes pop out of thin air? If you make a high-level character, you might ignore the maker of your tome, but that's not because the maker doesn't exist and you bought it on auction in Sigil. It's because the maker isn't important to the main quest.

[SparkMandriller]

The problem with just giving out Tomes as part of WBL when creating a high-level PC is that you are assuming that somewhere in the world there is a 3-Int 3-Wis 19-Cha Sor18 who is easily persuaded by "Ooh, shiny gold!" to spent a HUGE part of his very life essence in crafting an item that will have no benefit to him.

So, are high power weapons allowed? Armour? Rings? Scrolls? Potions? Is there some sort of formula determining how much experience a caster will spend, or what?

[Twilight Jack]

If you're going to restrict access to tomes because nobody would craft them just to sell them, shouldn't you restrict a lot of other things too? Weapons, armour, like half the list of items.

This is one of those things that's best just left alone, before the entire economy explodes, I always thought. As long as I don't look at it, there is no problem. No problem.

It's not like tomes come cheap, anyway.

The main difference that I see is that a magic sword or suit of armor has value beyond the specific user for whom it was crafted. If my fighter carries a +5 longsword of speed, worth 128,000 gp, it will continue to be valuable long after my fighter is dead and dust. Anyone through the ages who comes across this eldritch blade can pick it up and wield it, unless it is destroyed in some fashion.

By contrast, a +5 tome has utility only to the first person to read it. After that, it's worthless. It's not the creation of such a tome that strains my suspension of disbelief, as I can imagine a powerful wizard or cleric crafting one as a gift or tribute. No, what loses me is the notion that someone would keep one just lying around. It's got a 137,500 gp value on the market, but is utterly worthless if it's not read, and even more worthless after it has been read.

[Talya]

In 17 levels playing, we've never seen one at all.

That said, my sorceress has a +5 inherent bonus to charisma, thanks to the Heartwarder PrC, which grants it automatically (+1 at every odd level for 10 levels.)

[Tyndmyr]

By contrast, a +5 tome has utility only to the first person to read it. After that, it's worthless. It's not the creation of such a tome that strains my suspension of disbelief, as I can imagine a powerful wizard or cleric crafting one as a gift or tribute. No, what loses me is the notion that someone would keep one just lying around. It's got a 137,500 gp value on the market, but is utterly worthless if it's not read, and even more worthless after it has been read.

Once it exists, I have no problem with the possibility that they may go unused. I mean...for one, they're worth a crapton of gold. If as a king, I get sent that as tribute, I may decide I can benefit my kingdom more by selling it and using the gold on many small things than by boosting myself.

Likewise, rare and valuable things get lost, stolen, etc. Obviously, these shouldn't be available in stacks at the smallest of towns, but the possibility that one can be tracked down is reasonable.

[Choco]

Because there are very few conditions under which a near-epic caster would be willing to lose several thousand XP creating it. Ever met a PC who would do that?

The problem with just giving out Tomes as part of WBL when creating a high-level PC is that you are assuming that somewhere in the world there is a 3-Int 3-Wis 19-Cha Sor18 who is easily persuaded by "Ooh, shiny gold!" to spent a HUGE part of his very life essence in crafting an item that will have no benefit to him.

Making it a quest reward, or defining who is creating this item and why, goes a long way to alleviating the problems of Tomes.

Thats true. When creating new high level characters it can be assumed they quested for the tome, which I usually treat like I would a minor artifact. Or my favorite option, whooped up on a high level sorcerer/wizard and spared his life/let him go on the condition that he make the tome. But yeah, tomes should never be in magic shops. I agree with some of the other posters, in anything but the highest magic world you really shouldn't have any item higher than lvl 6 or 7 just laying around in a shop. Anything higher level than that either requires a quest or can be commissioned if you got the connections and have been sucking up to the right person/organization.

That being said, I am running a homebrew setting now that is like Dark Sun in that there are no "real" gods, just epic-level characters/creatures that basically count as demigods with 1 divine rank, but are much more vulnerable to mortals. If the players want some of those uber magic items that no caster would logically want to make, and none exist to quest for, they gotta do A LOT of sucking up to one of these demigods, usually in the form of a few quests that result in getting the desired item(s) made for them as a reward.

[ericgrau]

Once it exists, I have no problem with the possibility that they may go unused. I mean...for one, they're worth a crapton of gold. If as a king, I get sent that as tribute, I may decide I can benefit my kingdom more by selling it and using the gold on many small things than by boosting myself.
Will he even get full price if he sells it? Talk about getting someone the wrong christmas present. This isn't a fruit cake. It is an item of tremendous world-changing value. A wizard wouldn't give one to a king without talking to him beforehand. Otherwise it's better to just send a gift card, I mean rare gem or art piece that always sells for 100%.

I'm sticking with the lost, commissioned or soon-to-be-gifted explanations on obtaining tomes.

[Aldizog]

So, are high power weapons allowed? Armour? Rings? Scrolls? Potions? Is there some sort of formula determining how much experience a caster will spend, or what?
Sure. If it's fairly reasonable to expect a PC would do it, then it's fairly reasonable to expect an NPC to do it. PCs and NPCs are both people in the game world with their own desires and motivations.

Most items have a gold/XP ratio much, much greater than that of the Tomes.

[SparkMandriller]

The main difference that I see is that a magic sword or suit of armor has value beyond the specific user for whom it was crafted. If my fighter carries a +5 longsword of speed, worth 128,000 gp, it will continue to be valuable long after my fighter is dead and dust. Anyone through the ages who comes across this eldritch blade can pick it up and wield it, unless it is destroyed in some fashion.

But who made the sword in the first place? If they were willing to make and sell it, why not a tome?

I mean, yeah, tomes do get used up, but if someone's willing to make one thing, why not another?

[Talya]

Sure. If it's fairly reasonable to expect a PC would do it, then it's fairly reasonable to expect an NPC to do it. PCs and NPCs are both people in the game world with their own desires and motivations.


Actually, it's even more reasonable to expect an NPC to do it. PCs sell items at 50% of value. NPCs sell items at 100% of value. This makes it a much better longterm investment for an NPC...

[Aldizog]

But who made the sword in the first place? If they were willing to make and sell it, why not a tome?

I mean, yeah, tomes do get used up, but if someone's willing to make one thing, why not another?
1) the XP cost for the Tome is MUCH higher than for the sword if they have the same GP value. I imagine that NPCs are just as unlikely as PCs to want to take that big of a hit. If my goal is obtaining gold, making swords or any item other than Tomes or Wish rings is a smarter idea because it costs me less of my life energy.
2) the sword is more likely to be found in treasure since it is not a consumable good. You don't have to explain "Why didn't any of the previous owners ever use this?" -- they did use it. Whoever made that sword in the first place might also have made a tome to sell (if they were stupid), but that tome was likely used up.

[Twilight Jack]

Once it exists, I have no problem with the possibility that they may go unused. I mean...for one, they're worth a crapton of gold. If as a king, I get sent that as tribute, I may decide I can benefit my kingdom more by selling it and using the gold on many small things than by boosting myself.

Likewise, rare and valuable things get lost, stolen, etc. Obviously, these shouldn't be available in stacks at the smallest of towns, but the possibility that one can be tracked down is reasonable.

They're indeed worth a crapton of gold. On the other hand, who's going to buy it? If the king who's received it decides that he can best benefit his kingdom by selling it, then he still needs a buyer. Who's most likely to buy such an item? A person who intends to use its contents to boost himself, of course.

Any individual owner may likely decide to sell the thing, but the most likely buyer in each instance is a guy who intends to read it, which means that the tome's chances of surviving intact goes down considerably everytime it changes hands. And if you don't read it, its only utility to you is if you sell it, so there's little point in just hanging on to it.

Hence, anyone who comes into possession of one will either read it or sell it. Anyone who buys one is more likely to read it than sell it again (especially since he'd have to sell at a profit for it to make any sense at all). This means that every tome or manual that is created will be read before too long, unless it is either lost or comes into the possession of a collector, who has no interest in reading or selling it.

So, again, the idea of coming across one that you didn't commission becomes increasingly unlikely, when compared to other items of the same basic level.

[Tyndmyr]

They're indeed worth a crapton of gold. On the other hand, who's going to buy it? If the king who's received it decides that he can best benefit his kingdom by selling it, then he still needs a buyer. Who's most likely to buy such an item? A person who intends to use its contents to boost himself, of course.

Right...small market, so either he sells it to a reseller at a steep discount(since very few can afford to keep such expensive items in stock), or finds that lucky end user somehow. Mostly likely delays and searching are involved in buyer and seller finding each other. Turnover on small, commonly used items is relatively quick compared to high powered ones.

In terms of xp...do crafters actually know how much xp they spend on an item?

[Twilight Jack]

But who made the sword in the first place? If they were willing to make and sell it, why not a tome?

I mean, yeah, tomes do get used up, but if someone's willing to make one thing, why not another?

My point isn't that wizards don't make tomes, just that the tomes don't survive for long after being made.

Let's pretend that every year, a wizard somewhere in the world crafts a +5 longsword of speed. Over a 1,000 year timeline, that's 1,000 such swords. Of these, 5% are destroyed in some fashion before the end of the millenium. That leaves 950 such swords in the world at the end of the timeline, waiting to be acquired in some fashion.

By the same token, let's assume that +5 tomes are created at this rate. Of those made, how many are still around 1,000 years hence, without having once been read?

That's the point I'm trying to make.

[Longcat]

I always thought magic items were crafted by artificers. Wonder where the xp for that +5 tome came from? Guess what happened to those +1 Merciful, Throwing, Returning, construct bane whips your party sold after the last dungeon crawl :smallbiggrin:

[Aldizog]

In terms of xp...do crafters actually know how much xp they spend on an item?
That's a good point. I imagine that there's a vague sense of personal power which they ascertain through meditation, contemplation, or ritual tests. It's how PCs or NPCs know that they have enough excess to cast Wish, for example. Then after creating an item and putting their life force into it (I think 3E crafting was heavily influenced by LotR), they do feel weakened to some degree.

In-game, I imagine that a PC and an NPC are doing the same process to figure out if they're capable of crafting that item (have the XP to spare) before they attempt it.

[Choco]

I always thought magic items were crafted by artificers. Wonder were the xp for that +5 tome came from? Guess what happened those +1 Merciful, Throwing, Returning, construct bane whips your party sold after the last dungeon crawl :smallbiggrin:

THAT is the most likely explanation I have heard so far of there being a bunch of +5 tomes floating around. If any campaign setting has high level artificers, this is definitely possible.

EDIT: and it also explains who in their right minds would want to buy something like the whip you just mentioned. With that logic, there is always a buyer for every magic item no matter how useless and there will always be a supply of +5 tomes. Wonderful.

[Thalnawr]

I always thought magic items were crafted by artificers. Wonder where the xp for that +5 tome came from? Guess what happened to those +1 Merciful, Throwing, Returning, construct bane whips your party sold after the last dungeon crawl :smallbiggrin:

Either that... or the item was crafted with XP drawn from damned souls in some sweatshop in Baator...

[Twilight Jack]

Right...small market, so either he sells it to a reseller at a steep discount(since very few can afford to keep such expensive items in stock), or finds that lucky end user somehow. Mostly likely delays and searching are involved in buyer and seller finding each other. Turnover on small, commonly used items is relatively quick compared to high powered ones.

In terms of xp...do crafters actually know how much xp they spend on an item?

I would imagine that any crafter in a D&D world has a basic understanding that when they craft an enchanted item, they must invest a certain portion of themself into the creation. This seems like the sort of thing that wizards and sages over the years would have picked up upon.

And, while it's unlikely that they call it eXperience Points, it does seem likely that once this investiture was noticed, it would be quantified. More powerful items require a greater personal investment, and certain spells seem to take this toll as well. Combine a spell with a substantial personal investment, like wish, with an item made to contain all the power of such a spell, and I imagine that wizards would have a pretty good idea of what they were doing when they cast such a spell five times in a row.

[Aldizog]

Either that... or the item was crafted with XP drawn from damned souls in some sweatshop in Baator...
Ohh, yeah. And the BoVD rules for using human sacrifice to create magic items. Forgot about those.
PC1: "I got a 36 on Bardic Knowledge."
DM: "The Tome of Puissant Might was intended to increase the reader's strength, though it has never been read. It was created by the lich known as the Bone Duke as a gift for the warlord Fanskar. To imbue the book with power, the Bone Duke overran the city of Keft, rounded up the citizens, tortured the parents to death in front of their children, then sacrificed the thousand children to Mephistopheles. The heroes of the land slew Fanskar before the Tome could be delivered, and when the Bone Duke was finally destroyed the Tome was nowhere to be found."
PC2: "Is it a +4 or +5? I've already got a +3."

[Draz74]

I've rarely if ever seen Tomes in play. Wishes are more common for getting inherent bonuses. Tomes just don't make economic sense, as others have said.

However, IIRC, in 2e these items didn't just turn into mundane books when they were used -- they vanished. If that means they went somewhere else (mysterious), and could then be re-used, then they would make economic sense no matter how difficult to craft they are.

It would be fun sometime to run a high-level story arc where the PCs investigate a mysterious organization (probably made out of outsiders, perhaps Efreeti) that has control of the used Tomes, causes them to vanish, and is in charge of redistributing them throughout the multiverse. Of course, every member of this organization would have a +5 inherent bonus to all stats, which would be a nice little extra layer of challenge.

[Lapak]

However, IIRC, in 2e these items didn't just turn into mundane books when they were used -- they vanished. If that means they went somewhere else (mysterious), and could then be re-used, then they would make economic sense no matter how difficult to craft they are.The item-crafting rules in 2e also made creation of every magical item kind of a one-off affair, meaning that it was significantly harder to mass-produce anything. I mean, if creating a Tome to increase strength means I have to make my own vellum from the skin of a stone giant, inscribe the text with ink made by combining the life-blood of an elder earth elemental slain on its home plane with the quicksilver waters of the Heartspring deep underground, collected with a hand-forged mithril dipper at noon on the longest day of the year, and then each word must be written under the light of the full moon at its mightiest (did I mention it takes 200 hours of total writing time?) and THEN I have to cast Enchant an Item five times?

Well, you're going to see a lot fewer Tomes floating around.

[Tequila Sunrise]

That's a good point. I imagine that there's a vague sense of personal power which they ascertain through meditation, contemplation, or ritual tests. It's how PCs or NPCs know that they have enough excess to cast Wish, for example. Then after creating an item and putting their life force into it (I think 3E crafting was heavily influenced by LotR), they do feel weakened to some degree.

In-game, I imagine that a PC and an NPC are doing the same process to figure out if they're capable of crafting that item (have the XP to spare) before they attempt it.
This is how I explain tomes/manuals: D&D is a game mostly about diving into highly implausible dungeons that seem to grow like grass, risking your life for questionable/shallow motivations to kill bizarre monsters that exist by vague/shallow explanations, and then taking the copious amounts of bling bling that these monsters have by equally vague/shallow reasons. So worrying about who writes magical tomes and manuals is not a top priority for me.

If for some reason they really need to be explained, well, NPCs don't follow PC rules. They don't have or need xp to do what the DM says they do; an NPC doesn't even need to be 17th level to scribe a manual/tome -- if the DM says so, some 1st level NPC adept scribes them by some partial wish ability. As to why manuals/tomes don't get read before the PCs find them, well clearly the previous owner couldn't read. Or the previous owner's blood reacted badly with the tome's magic, which is why it wasn't used.

Or I as the DM say "Screw this, manuals/tomes are funky, so they're banned along with wish, limited and miracle." Tomes/manuals are one of those items that any player with half a brain wants, and yet the way they work is unlike every other bonus in the game: their cost and their special stacking rule encourage players to ignore any bonus less than +5, and instead save up until they can finally afford that +5. As a result, PC stats increase [more or less] gradually until BAM! Everyone has +2.5 to their important stats. (Assuming the campaign uses the Ye Olde Magick Shoppe paradigm, rather than Diablo-style market.)

So I like to ban inherent bonuses, and allow non-epic ability boosters up to +10 instead.

[taltamir]

I think tomes are more of a "self use" item...

A wizard at level 17 gains access to one 9th level spell slot. +1 for very high int... (he needs a +5 tome and a starting int of 20 to get another 9th slot).

So that means he could blow 5000XP per +1 to get a max of +2 inherant bonus.

But if he crafts himself a tome, it will cost him 5100XP per +1... plus an obscene amount of GP (12.5x the XP cost).

This could get lucrative though to craft and use and to craft and sell if the game is capped at level 20... Your 20th level wizard now converts his excess XP to tomes which he sells (first to the party and then to anyone who can afford it) to well... I don't know what... he is a level 20 wizard, money shouldn't be a problem anyways...

Why not just wait till level 20 before getting the +int tome? because then he misses out on bonus skill points at level up...

[deuxhero]

A Tome requires an individual capable of casting Wish or Miracle to create. This individual is expected to sacrifice a large chunk of XP to create a tome for sale to increase the power of some other powerful adventurer. The only benefit to the crafter is cash, which he or she could just create by using said Wish or Miracle. For the more powerful tomes, they have to actively delay taking a level to have the XP available for crafting. So why would anybody ever create one of these for sale? I can see arguments for making them for a specific person (one's overlord, or a trusted ally). But for sale?

Artificer+craft reserve. K thx bye.

[Aldizog]

Artificer+craft reserve. K thx bye.
Surprisingly, not everybody plays in Eberron.
How big is this craft reserve pool? Does it reach 25,000 XP?
Okay, thank you, goodbye to you as well.

[Zaydos]

I actually made it fairly easy to get tomes in mine to avoid having the PCs look for Wish spells for the same reason. That and they were adventuring in dungeons created by an ego-maniac super mage 10000 years ago, who locked them with epic magic and who put the tomes in as a reward. That or they just went to the level ~24 108 year old wizard they knew. Too old to adventure, but with a lot of XP to spare. They were about 20th themselves at this time though so...

[tyckspoon]

Surprisingly, not everybody plays in Eberron.
How big is this craft reserve pool? Does it reach 25,000 XP?
Okay, thank you, goodbye to you as well.

The highest you get just for leveling is 5,000 (it resets at each level, so you can't just pool together the craft reserve from every previous level.) Artificers also get the ability to cannibalize the XP from other magic items and add it to their craft reserve, however.. which means the most effective way to make a +5 tome is to gather a batch of +1 tomes that nobody wants.

[taltamir]

in a hypothetical theoretical game world that ignores the possibilities given by the RAW for the fluff of the raw...
casters cap out at level 20, and they need an income (as they don't break the economy somehow).
So how do you make money? why, you craft items, like tomes... converting your now useless XP (since you are level 20) to money.


The highest you get just for leveling is 5,000 (it resets at each level, so you can't just pool together the craft reserve from every previous level.) Artificers also get the ability to cannibalize the XP from other magic items and add it to their craft reserve, however.. which means the most effective way to make a +5 tome is to gather a batch of +1 tomes that nobody wants.

or a bunch of magic swords, shields, armors, and other assorted magic items.

[Aldizog]

in a hypothetical theoretical game world that ignores the possibilities given by the RAW for the fluff of the raw...
casters cap out at level 20, and they need an income (as they don't break the economy somehow).
So how do you make money? why, you craft items, like tomes... converting your now useless XP (since you are level 20) to money.

Why wouldn't you just wish for the gold directly? That avoids the need to find a buyer and avoids the risk of giving more power to bloodthirsty tomb robbers adventurers.

[taltamir]

because crafting items for a buyer (who buys at market price, while you craft at half) gives you 12.5gp per 1XP spent.

wishing for gold safely (up to the 25,000gp limit on non magical items) gives you 5gp per 1xp spent.

[Aldizog]

because crafting items for a buyer (who buys at market price, while you craft at half) gives you 12.5gp per 1XP spent.

wishing for gold safely (up to the 25,000gp limit on non magical items) gives you 5gp per 1xp spent.
That's not the case for tomes, though. There, you're getting 5.4 gp per 1 xp spent, basically the same as wishing for it.

Creating almost anything other than tomes will give you a much better gp-to-xp return.

[Tyndmyr]

Why wouldn't you just wish for the gold directly? That avoids the need to find a buyer and avoids the risk of giving more power to bloodthirsty tomb robbers adventurers.

If giving power to bloodthirsty types is the price of additional wealth, I many will pay it.

[taltamir]

oh wow, you are right... i didn't notice that tomes have a vastly reduced gp cost compared to their XP for some reason...
yes, that does mean that crafting tomes is the least valueable magic item to craft for sale...

And you can craft scrolls for sale without even wasting a feat on crafting.

only explanation is that someone hires you to make him a tome at a lot more than market value listed in the SRD... a LOT more.

as in, they will pay you 127500 for a +1 tome, instead of 27,500 gp for it to match the profitability of selling ANY other crafted item...

[taltamir]

That's not the case for tomes, though. There, you're getting 5.4 gp per 1 xp spent, basically the same as wishing for it.

Creating almost anything other than tomes will give you a much better gp-to-xp return.

Cost 1,250 gp + 5,100 XP (+1)

actually, it gives you 5.15 gp per XP... 27000 market value - 1250 gp to craft = 25750 gp profit per 5100xp = 5.15gp profit per 1XP cost

the 12.5gp per XP was PROFIT...
the tome costs gp to craft. So does every other item btw...

So crafting a regular magic item costs you 12.5gp per XP, and has a market price of 25gp per XP...
so a 1000xp item would cost 12,500gp to craft and have a value of 25000gp...

Normal Item Crafting: 12.5gp profit per 1XP spent.
Wishing for gold: 5gp profit per 1XP spent.
Crafting a Tome: 5.15gp profit per 1XP spent.
Selling your XP to allow another person to craft an item: 5gp profit per 1XP spent.
Selling the casting of a spell with an XP cost: 5gp profit per 1XP spent.

Only a retard would ever craft a tome for sale... or craft a tome period...

[tyckspoon]

oh wow, you are right... i didn't notice that tomes have a vastly reduced gp cost compared to their XP for some reason...
yes, that does mean that crafting tomes is the least valueable magic item to craft for sale...


The base price is at the normal 1/25th XP cost. The XP component for the Wishes is added to the costs separately, after determining the GP/XP cost to craft, and priced at the 5 gp-1 xp conversion rate. Which means that Tomes are indeed not very good trade goods, despite being crazy valuable (they're also tasty tasty nuggets of condensed XP for Artificers.)

[Choco]

only explanation is that someone hires you to make him a tome at a lot more than market value listed in the SRD... a LOT more.

as in, they will pay you 127500 for a +1 tome, instead of 27,500 gp for it to match the profitability of selling ANY other crafted item...

Or you offer to spare the life of the wizard/sorcerer you just utterly defeated on the grounds that he make you a tome :smallamused:

EDIT: Of course he will be out for revenge, so you get to defeat him over and over, and get more tomes. He will surely make up for the lost XP in between making tomes as he is preparing yet another attack on you.

[taltamir]

Or you offer to spare the life of the wizard/sorcerer you just utterly defeated on the grounds that he make you a tome :smallamused:
1. Enchanting a wondrous item takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its price. So, 27 days per +1 bonus.
2. The tome will be consumed as soon as it was created. So you are not gonna find it in any market
3. It requires a wizard 17+ or sorc 18+, with craft wonderous items, and who intentionally skipped a level for +4 or +5 tomes, or just has a lot of free XP on hand for +1, 2 or 3 tomes. (you cannot lose levels to craft items). and who has a wish spell prepared which he must cast as part of the crafting process (so, he could cast the wish not to craft it, but to wish you dead).
4. Only a wizard/sorcerer stands a chance of defeating a wizard/sorcerer in such a manner...

although you could get lucky and hit a level 17+ wizard with dominate person, and force him to craft one... you would have to saddle him with quite a lot of penalties to will saves to ensure he stays under your control for the requisite 27 days per +1.

[ericgrau]

The reason crafting xp was never a big deal is because you gain xp faster when you're at a lower level, and the items are usually well worth it. Though in the case of tomes you wait until everything else is maxed out and the tome is the only way to further increase your power. Fact is, no other item will give you an inherent bonus so at one point your buyer will only want the tome. What's the point of a thousand scrolls if you don't have buyers for more than 100? At some point someone commissions tomes and no thank you I don't want a better longsword mine's already a +10 equivalent. Then you either do it or you settle for a missed opportunity at a tremendous sale. Then you take up basket weaving or ivory tower construction or something. Or a far away ally wants one and says the same thing: "I already have everything else, I only want tomes now if I'm ever to take on this old dragon." You already buy tomes after you already have everything else. Why would crafting them be any different?

[taltamir]

The reason crafting xp was never a big deal is because you gain xp faster when you're at a lower level, and the items are usually well worth it. Though in the case of tomes you wait until everything else is maxed out and the tome is the only way to further increase your power. Fact is, no other item will give you an inherent bonus so at one point your buyer will only want the tome. What's the point of a thousand scrolls if you don't have buyers for more than 100? At some point someone commissions tomes and no thank you I don't want a better longsword mine's already a +10 equivalent. Then you either do it or you settle for a missed opportunity at a tremendous sale. Then you take up basket weaving or ivory tower construction or something.

because its easier to sell 1000 scrolls than a single book that costs AS MUCH as 1000 scrolls.

because it is perfectly safe to just wish for 25,000 gold... which gives you 5gp per 1XP, vs the 5.15gp per 1XP of crafting a tome, without spending a month of work to craft it and finding a buyer.

because you can achieve the same results of a tome by casting wish directly, and not waste the XP cost. A wizard 20 can cast 4 level 9 spells per day... +1 (at least) from high stats... thats 5 a day. even if not, he can just make 1 scroll, or a pearl of power 9. because a tome costs you MORE XP than just casting wishes.

either way, forgo the tome and directly cast wish spell 5 times in a row...

[Autopsibiofeeder]

When I dm, I use the next rule of thumb: a lvl 20 character has recieved (approximately, on average, usw.) 2x +2inherent, 1x +4inherent and 1x+5 inherent. These are distributed following a compromise between player wishes and dm insight. Combinations are possible, but a +12/13 total inherent bonus is normal, imo.

These inherent bonuses do weigh in against the character wealth, but are only partly gained as such: A party may find/obtain a few tomes, actually crafted by (N)PC's, but they will also recieve inherent bonuses as reward for (for example) quests undergone for esoteric organisations, that have acces to esoteric rewards (divine intervention, outsiders with spell-like abilities, perhaps even a re-readible artifact etc.).

Whatever the source, and one can be very creative with it, players do get docked ~300k gp from their character wealth for a +12/13 inherent bonus. When a player desires less, that is ok.

However, these rewards come into play pretty late in their careers. Level 11+ we 'start talking' and chances are half of the inherent bonuses only come into play the last 4 levels of the 20 level play.

[Foryn Gilnith]

What I've learned from this thread: Don't use the random magic item tables; they will give you too many tomes.

[Tyndmyr]

Tomes? No, no, the random item tables invariably result in many, many scrolls of jump, read magic, and other such useful tidbits. :smalleek:

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Tomes? No, no, the random item tables invariably result in many, many scrolls of jump, read magic, and other such useful tidbits. :smalleek:

Don't forget the unidentified potions of reduce person and levitate the barbarian imbibes, hoping one of them is a healing potion :).

[elonin]

If I had the prereq for making the item and leveling would cause me to loose about that much xp then I would make such an item. Also if I had an artificer I might make one of these in the right situation. Also let's consider that people in desperate need of cash (say to pay a ransom or buy that item that you really want) might make one of these for the economy of crafting. Remember that for small items that only one item, or set, can be crafted per day.

Another thought is about the +5 inherent bonus. The only way I can imagine doing this preepic (where 10th level slots could be used) is making a scroll then using 4 slots or making use of the archmage SLA ability giving up one slot for 3 sla castings and I can't imagine choosing that spell for that ability (much better to select time stop for this). Am I missing something?

[taltamir]

a level 20 wizard is not in desperate need of cash; ever.
should he be in desperate need of cash, he doesn't have 27 days to spend crafting per +1 bonus and then find a buyer.
Spending 27 days per +1 tome crafting, he gets a return of 5.15gp per 1XP spent.
Crafting a normal item gives 12.5gp per 1XP spent.
Casting a spell with an XP cost gives 5gp per 1XP spent
wishing for money gives 5gp per 1XP spent...

so if you are in a desperate need for money, wish for 25,000 gp... faster (by far), more efficient, and slightly less profitable than crafting...

[Tyndmyr]

Don't forget the unidentified potions of reduce person and levitate the barbarian imbibes, hoping one of them is a healing potion :).

Wait...was this a flask or a potion?

I dunno, drink it at fight out...

[Slayn82]

I guess a powerful Caster would only craft a Tome as a final project, when he is sure his death is coming and has accepted it by some reason, as something to guide a future worthy adventurer in his destiny.

And then, of course, to make sure he is a worthy hero, he would build an insanity inducing dungeon, bind a lot of monsters to haunt the place, anchor a lot of outsiders for fun, fill it to the top with traps, and then tomb himself in it.

Because thats how Casters have been doing things since ever, apparently. Even outside RPGs.

Or maybe, if you play in Forggoten Realms, well, Mystra used to punish the mages that abused magic with insanity, sometimes only temporary. In most cases also resulted in a lot of Dungeon Building and absurdly item making.

Hallaster went to Undermountain to watch intruders struggle and die (guess he would love Survivor), and other guy foundated the Dragon Cult. So, i could totally see a random mage getting an urge to craft an Tome of Strenght +5 and then have it throw away somewhere before returning to his senses.

[elonin]

Why would anyone take the craft arms or craft armor feats? There are by definition a lot of magical swords and armor (more than could be supported by clerics). Of course you wouldn't need to be as high level to create a magic sword as a magical tome, but the same argument for why not to create such an item exists. The role play idea that you make items to equip your trusted allies/servants who are commissioned to undertake quests would be an answer to both questions.

[Geddoe]

It is obvious: the huge cost of these tomes is why casters in-game researched and perfected the thought bottle.

[AngelisBlack]

I've always ruled in my campagins that items above a certain caster level [depending on the city, for a Metropolis its CL 15] are not available. While items from CL 10-15 are available, they do require a special order be placed [or a high enough gather info check in some circumstances] and not bought from "ye olde item shoppe".
Items above said level would be pretty rare and only found in treasure, however the tomes are a special case. I havn't DMed a campagin that high but I would suggest that tomes above a +2 bonus be only available via questing for it specifically and direct godly gift.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sorry to make a semi-tangential statement, but +5 tome could actually be crafted by as low as a 14th level character. Ex-Cleric 5/ Ur-Priest 9, or Fighter 1/Wizard 4/ Ur-priest 9 or etc... Getting a 3point increase to caster level isn't that hard.

[taltamir]

I've always ruled in my campagins that items above a certain caster level [depending on the city, for a Metropolis its CL 15] are not available. While items from CL 10-15 are available, they do require a special order be placed [or a high enough gather info check in some circumstances] and not bought from "ye olde item shoppe".
Items above said level would be pretty rare and only found in treasure, however the tomes are a special case. I havn't DMed a campagin that high but I would suggest that tomes above a +2 bonus be only available via questing for it specifically and direct godly gift.

while sensible, this is more a punishment to the non casters... so at levels 15+ when casters make beatsticks truly irrelevant, you take away their magic items giving an extra boost to casters.

[Renegade Paladin]

As a DM, no. I do not feel like magic items can be "bought." Characters get what they get in the random treasures belonging to creatures they disposed of. Unless I feel that they need a specific item for an upcoming adventure, then that'll be in there too. Gods have mercy upon them if they "accidentally" sell it before they need it...MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!
:smallbiggrin:
If they're not for sale at all, one can presuppose there's no market, so how can the PCs sell them at all? :smalltongue:

[Aldizog]

while sensible, this is more a punishment to the non casters... so at levels 15+ when casters make beatsticks truly irrelevant, you take away their magic items giving an extra boost to casters.
Not exactly...
1) there aren't that many items that a melee character needs to stay competitive that require a CL of 16 or greater
2) more powerful items can still be found in treasure, even if they can't be bought, and the DM can pick and choose to make sure they're ones that the melee types can use to narrow the gap
3) PCs can try to track down and quest for powerful items or minor artifacts
4) PC casters can craft items for their allies; the game isn't normally a competition where the casters try to see how soon they can make their friends irrelevant