O-Chul told the truth.

[Osmin]

In this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html), Redcloak asks how Girards Gate is protected. O-Chul answers, telling him stuff *we* already know. I have heard about the illusions, but never about any maze filled with riddles.

Thing is, we later learn (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html) that O-Chul will not tell an outright lie.

Thus, the whole thing with Redcloak seems to be a Sarcastic Confession (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SarcasticConfession), which also should mean that the maze and the riddles are real. Speculation, but still...

[Lissou]

Thing is, we later learn (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html) that O-Chul will not tell an outright lie.

He won't tell an outright lie for no good reason when he can tell the truth and be vague enough for it to serve the same purpose.

Nothing in that strip says he's not willing to lie to save innocent lives (even more than just lives).
He surely lied as little as possible I'd say, and used what he knew of Girard to make a guess, but since he would have no idea how the Gate is protected (there is no way Girard told Soon the specifics, and if he had it could be a lie anyways) we can't count on it being the way the Gate is actually protected. (We can't say we know it isn't, either. He could have made a good guess).

EDIT: which makes me realise, in a way, it's not an "outright lie" since he doesn't /know/ it to be false.

[magic9mushroom]

In this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html), Redcloak asks how Girards Gate is protected. O-Chul answers, telling him stuff *we* already know. I have heard about the illusions, but never about any maze filled with riddles.

Thing is, we later learn (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html) that O-Chul will not tell an outright lie.

Thus, the whole thing with Redcloak seems to be a Sarcastic Confession (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SarcasticConfession), which also should mean that the maze and the riddles are real. Speculation, but still...

It is a fact that O-Chul lied during that conversation with Redcloak, because his statement that he didn't know contradicts his statement about the riddles. So it would seem logical to assume that "not telling a lie" only applies to other Good Guys - or even just his superiors.

[TheSummoner]

No... O-Chul was lieing. He had no way of knowing that what he said was accurate. As far as he knew, he was making up a story in an attempt to save the souls of the innocent prisoners.

The fact that what he said in his lie was factually accurate was just a (hilarious) coincidence.

[Osmin]

Hmmm... maybe you're right. Anyway, this should be O-Chul Facts Fuel.

[The Pale King]

Hmmm... maybe you're right. Anyway, this should be O-Chul Facts Fuel.
O-Chul actually does lie. It's just that when he does, the truth retroactively changes to whatever he says.

[Ancalagon]

I always assumed it was a joke.

It is very unlikely that O'Chul really knows details on the other gate. He might know a few things here and there and deduct something, but he cannot really know anything for sure. And WHAT he can know is probably pretty little.
And I also assume that, no matter how much O'Chul wants to save innocent lives (and souls!) he ALSO knows that giving Redcloak the truth might (will?) cause even more harm to the rest of the world, maybe even risking unmaking it entirely (that's what the Sapphire Guard believes anyway why they MUST protect the gates).

Thus, even IF O'Chul knew things he would not tell Redcloak anything that might be useful to his and Xykon's nefarious schemes.

The "joke" now is that even while O'Chul does not know much and he cannot really tell Redcloak the truth, he just makes something up, something that MIGHT be based on his very vague knowledge (Serini, the diary and that Girard is an Illusionist) - and that "story" hits the nail on the head.
Something like that surely is within the scope of things The Giant would do to us.

[Shale]

O-Chul was lying by way of making **** up. It's entirely possible that he told the truth without knowing it, but "without knowing it" is the key part.

[NerfTW]

This entire discussion is based on the premise that O'chul can't lie, which is based on, what exactly? The linked strip doesn't state that he can't lie, simply that he didn't want to give the full details of Miko's involvement to avoid speaking ill of the dead. That doesn't mean he can't lie.

Especially since lying would have said what exactly? That Xykon has some awesome ability to blow up gates? That the Snarl did it? That it was a failsafe they didn't know about triggered by Soon?

Knowing that the gate was destroyed by the original failsafe plan (Smashing it with a sword) prevents having to give false intelligence about what really destroyed the gate. He simply left out who swung the sword.

O'chul can lie all he wants to.

[Dark_Stryke]

This entire discussion is based on the premise that O'chul can't lie, which is based on, what exactly? The linked strip doesn't state that he can't lie, simply that he didn't want to give the full details of Miko's involvement to avoid speaking ill of the dead. That doesn't mean he can't lie.

Yeah. This, basically.


Just because O'Chul didn't lie doesn't mean he can't.

[Optimystik]

A War & XPs bonus strip proves paladins can indeed lie in OotS without falling.


O-Chul actually does lie. It's just that when he does, the truth retroactively changes to whatever he says.

*slap*

[factotum]

Yeah. This, basically.

Just because O'Chul didn't lie doesn't mean he can't.

As already pointed out, in the strip where Redcloak is interrogating O-Chul, O-Chul says at one point how Girard's Gate is protected, then later says he doesn't know. Since those statements are contradictory, one of them (at least) has to be a lie. Therefore, we know O-Chul can lie--he only does so when he believes the result will be to the greater good, though (saving the people on the tower).

[Haven]

I never understood how O-Chul lied there. He told Redcloak everything he knew about Girard's Gate, but genuinely didn't know the details.

Wait, maybe my interpretation of that strip has been wrong this whole time. Yeah, probably.

[magic9mushroom]

I never understood how O-Chul lied there. He told Redcloak everything he knew about Girard's Gate, but genuinely didn't know the details.

Wait, maybe my interpretation of that strip has been wrong this whole time. Yeah, probably.

The riddles don't exist as far as we know. Hence, he was lying.

[NerfTW]

As already pointed out, in the strip where Redcloak is interrogating O-Chul, O-Chul says at one point how Girard's Gate is protected, then later says he doesn't know. Since those statements are contradictory, one of them (at least) has to be a lie. Therefore, we know O-Chul can lie--he only does so when he believes the result will be to the greater good, though (saving the people on the tower).

Good point. I didn't even look at that strip, I only looked at the second one when I thought "When does he say he can't lie?".

[Callista]

This entire discussion is based on the premise that O'chul can't lie, which is based on, what exactly? The linked strip doesn't state that he can't lie, simply that he didn't want to give the full details of Miko's involvement to avoid speaking ill of the dead. That doesn't mean he can't lie... O'chul can lie all he wants to.Not really all he wants to. I mean, technically, he can, but he's not the kind of guy who likes doing it. If given an option to be honest, he'll be honest. He doesn't even have the charisma score to get away with thinking up and telling a good lie anyway. It's not his style. Most lawful types don't like lying, and most LGs won't do it unless there's an awfully good reason. It's not like some kind of higher entity has decreed Thou Shalt Not Lie to them; they're simply not the kind of people who like to lie, and they won't think of it as a first strategy. They'd much prefer to be straightforward and go about doing things with either diplomacy or Smite Evil.

[rewinn]

Not really all he wants to. I mean, technically, he can, but he's not the kind of guy who likes doing it. If given an option to be honest, he'll be honest. He doesn't even have the charisma score to get away with thinking up and telling a good lie anyway. It's not his style. Most lawful types don't like lying, and most LGs won't do it unless there's an awfully good reason. It's not like some kind of higher entity has decreed Thou Shalt Not Lie to them; they're simply not the kind of people who like to lie, and they won't think of it as a first strategy. They'd much prefer to be straightforward and go about doing things with either diplomacy or Smite Evil.

Deceiving the enemy to protect the other gates (and therefore reality itself) can easily be considered "not-dishonorable"; indeed, O-Chul is remaining faithful to his oaths in the only way left to him.

This would be distinguished from garden-variety lying to advance one's one personal interest, to the detriment of someone not an enemy; that would be dishonorable and therefore impossible to paladins generally and O-Chul in particular, IMO.

In addition:

O-Chul actually does lie. It's just that when he does, the truth retroactively changes to whatever he says.

FTW!

[Ash_Gazn]

Actually, as we've seen in the comics, the Southern Gods decide when a Paladin has broken their oaths to a point where they lose their power (See: Miko).

There are three pieces of evidence that tell us O-Chul doesn't know anything about the other Gates:

1) O-Chul says he doesn't
2) Soon's Oath says his paladins won't
3) Lord Shojo says the Paladins don't know.

BUT... Shojo is a manipulative guy. He lied to the Paladins, he manipulated the Order of the Stick, but that doesn't mean that Shojo's work was against the will of the Southern Gods.

It's totally possible that O-Chul DOES know all about the other Gates, having been told by Shojo, and having decided that his religious Calling to serve the Southern Gods trumped an Oath made by Soon. The Southern Gods would determine if this was acceptable, and that he still has the powers of a Paladin would then suggest they did.

Likely? No.
Plausible? I'd say so. We don't know which 9 sides are part of the battle for the Gates. Some parties of the Scribble, plus the ghost of Soon, could still be manipulating the Paladins in various ways.

~DW

[Kish]

It's totally possible that O-Chul DOES know all about the other Gates, having been told by Shojo, and having decided that his religious Calling to serve the Southern Gods trumped an Oath made by Soon. The Southern Gods would determine if this was acceptable, and that he still has the powers of a Paladin would then suggest they did.
This presumes, however, that Shojo would trust a Sapphire Guard paladin with the information that he wasn't strictly following the Oath, which would change Shojo quite dramatically.