Kotor 2

[Lord of Rapture]

Well, after KOTOR 1 adamantly refused to run on my good computer, I decided to tell it to go **** off and went to buy its sequel, KOTOR 2: The Sith Lords, and, lo and behold, managed to get it to run. Looks like you're out of luck, KOTOR 1. :smalltongue:

Anyway, I'm having a blast with this game. The story is quite interesting, and the quests are more complex than simply going "kill this person" or "fetch this item", and the dialogue, though not Planescape level yet, is quite nice. In fact, it's one of the most fun times I've had since Evil Genius. However, I'm going to have to ask a few questions:

1. Is it common before getting your lightsaber to have every combat be incredibly hard, and then afterwards become incredibly easy? For some reason, even though I pumped out my dexterity score and upgraded all my blasters, blasters just can't seem to do **** against enemies, and it isn't until lightsabers that I get a decent weapon. Afterwards, the enemies just fall apart like they're made of cake.

2. For some reason, having a high Wisdom score (around 16) doesn't seem to help my Force Powers at all. 9 times out of 10, the enemy manages to save against my Force Power that I activated against them.

3. As an extension of 1, how the heck do you make ranged weapons useful? For some reason, no matter who's using the ranged weapon, they just suck for some reason.

[Flickerdart]

Lightsabers are very good, and ranged weapons are not. However, the nice thing about KotOR2 is that it lets you make pretty much everyone a Jedi, so that the benefits of lightsabers can be spread around.

[Lord of Rapture]

Yeah, but on the Something Awful playthrough, the guy managed to make his main character into a Jedi Gunman badass with blasters on par with lightsabers.

[Closet_Skeleton]

The trick to blasters is upgrading them. Ryleth Power Cells are horribly broken.

My attempt at a Jedi Conselor/Jedi Master was utterly useless because everyone kept making their save. IF you want to use force powers to hurt people who need to use Force Crush (everyone always saves against it but it's broken anyway) and Force Storm which still does plenty of damage after the enemy saves.

In general though, KotOR 2 is pretty easy combat wise.

[Trixie]

Hmmm, strange, as I found dual upgraded blasters quite deadly on one of my playthroughs. You just need to devote enough feats to it.

[Lord of Rapture]

Oh yeah, one more question: does Precise Shot help or hinder with blaster deflection with lightsabers?

[Milskidasith]

Blasters? Weak? Are you... joking?

A fully upgraded blaster is the strongest thing in the game. Crits a quarter of the time, never misses, never gets deflected (I think the final talent tree is like a -20 or something to enemies deflection rolls), kills in one burst. Master Knights Speed + Rapid Shot + two blasters fully upgraded will kill even bosses in two bursts at best, assuming you don't level grind with the glitch (higher level = higher level enemies = more enemy health, even though blasters are already maxed pretty easily.)

[Trixie]

Yup. The thing is - max Rapid shot, use speed, don't bother with the other modes of attack, but grab the whole line giving bonuses to attack/damage, way down on the list.

[Cristo Meyers]

Oh yeah, one more question: does Precise Shot help or hinder with blaster deflection with lightsabers?

It's been a while since I've played, but I know that there is something that hinders deflection, I just can't remember if it's Precise Shot...it should say in the feat description.

[Drakyn]

I do have one question relating to the blaster builds mentioned above: beyond the precise shot line, do any of the abilities listed NOT have any equivilant with a lightsaber? It seems that the main difference would be lower base damage and higher range.

[Pronounceable]

Be prepared for extreme disappointment. KotoR2 literally has no ending (not to mention oodles of game stopping bugs and glitches) because some expletive expletive executive expletive at ExpletiveArts forced them to rush for Xmas sales. Expletive you LA! They even refused to let Obsidian make a content patch to fix it when they volunteered to.
...My hatred for LucasArts is bottomless...
But it's still among the greatest RPGs ever even in its mangled state. Once you're done with the game, you should read the extremely long but utterly awesome Let's Play of it from Something Awful forums. There you can see what KotoR2 was really meant to be.

[Milskidasith]

I do have one question relating to the blaster builds mentioned above: beyond the precise shot line, do any of the abilities listed NOT have any equivilant with a lightsaber? It seems that the main difference would be lower base damage and higher range.

You mean the mods? Blasters have far and away better mods than lightsabers, and you get more attacks. It's much higher damage and a much higher range. Lightsabers suck for optimization; you go with the force or go with blasting.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Once you're done with the game, you should read the extremely long but utterly awesome Let's Play of it from Something Awful forums. There you can see what KotoR2 was really meant to be.

Link? My google-fu is weak. :(

Also, what's the state of the various restoration projects that were floating around? Which ones are available for download now?

[chiasaur11]

I found a link!

So, here you go. (http://lparchive.org/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/index.html)

[Drakyn]

You mean the mods? Blasters have far and away better mods than lightsabers, and you get more attacks. It's much higher damage and a much higher range. Lightsabers suck for optimization; you go with the force or go with blasting.

Thanks - I played the game through once four years or so ago, and I can't remember any of the mod parts. The blaster ones must be pretty damned good.

Also, for the guy above me, the link to the LP: http://lparchive.org/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/

EDIT: Chiasaur, your ninjaness infuriates me almost as much as your avatar's lack of resemblance to what your name mentally invokes.

[Trazoi]

Also, what's the state of the various restoration projects that were floating around? Which ones are available for download now?
Deadly Stream (http://www.deadlystream.com/index.php) hosts a restoration mod that I think is currently in beta. I haven't checked it yet myself to know it's current state, but the impression I've been given is that there might be a few glitches but it's definitely playable (and it's not as if the vanilla KoTOR 2 didn't have a few glitches either)

The other restoration project I was following was by Team Gizka, but the project effectively died a year or two ago (it's technically still going, but the team is down to a single developer and there hasn't been any progress shown for over a year). It was from there I learned about the site above which is still active.

[Lord of Rapture]

Be prepared for extreme disappointment. KotoR2 literally has no ending (not to mention oodles of game stopping bugs and glitches) because some expletive expletive executive expletive at ExpletiveArts forced them to rush for Xmas sales. Expletive you LA! They even refused to let Obsidian make a content patch to fix it when they volunteered to.
...My hatred for LucasArts is bottomless...
But it's still among the greatest RPGs ever even in its mangled state. Once you're done with the game, you should read the extremely long but utterly awesome Let's Play of it from Something Awful forums. There you can see what KotoR2 was really meant to be.

Oh, I already read it. I just needed to play it to experience it for myself.

Not saying it isn't great, but who here thinks that the combat system is pretty bad?

Quick question: is it worth going back to KOTOR 1 after finishing KOTOR 2?

[Seraph]

I die a little inside every time someone mentions KoToR 2 in my presence. That game is essentially a pile of bones collected from the stillborne corpse of what could have been one of the best RPGs of the decade, but Lucasarts just HAD to have it out by holiday season.

oh, what could have been.

[Johnny Blade]

Not saying it isn't great, but who here thinks that the combat system is pretty bad?
Combat is laughably easy*, repetitive due to the restricted scope of options and limited party size, and further brought down by some gameplay and AI issues.

Really, I see it as more of a distraction that gives me the chance to see whirling lightsabers and my guys shooting lighting from their palms between dialogues.


Quick question: is it worth going back to KOTOR 1 after finishing KOTOR 2?
Well, it has almost exactly the same merits and flaws as KotoR 2, and it's an actually finished game, so I'd be inclined to say yes.



*: Incidentally, regarding your issues with blasters in the beginning, I think you just got the hang of the game now.

[Temotei]

Force storm is my favorite. Force lightning does well before that.

Who cares if they make a save for half damage? There's no cap in this game! :smallbiggrin: No more 10d6 like in the first one.

A consular gets +2 DC on their force powers. Having a high Wisdom (16, raising it throughout the game via level-ups, equipment, etc.) is essential if you want to use things like force crush. It also raises your FP, which is great.

Infinite FP!

Infinite force storm!

Infinite DEATH!

Alternatively, if you're light side, guardian works well, because buffs are better to use on your melee self than your force-using self. Master speed is always awesome though. I don't care what build you're using. Have it on. If you're not going to melee/blast at all, just have burst of speed for the speed increase. :smallbiggrin:

[Athaniar]

I die a little inside every time someone mentions KoToR 2 in my presence. That game is essentially a pile of bones collected from the stillborne corpse of what could have been one of the best RPGs of the decade, but Lucasarts just HAD to have it out by holiday season.

oh, what could have been.

I agree that it's bad, but I can't see how they could have possibly made it any good, with her stil in it...

[SparkMandriller]

Combat is laughably easy*, repetitive due to the restricted scope of options and limited party size, and further brought down by some gameplay and AI issues.

Doesn't the game scale the enemies to your level, but stop once you hit level 20? So you're level 30+, and the game's still throwing challenges appropriate for a level 20 character at you. I think I read that somewhere. It'd explain why it gets so easy, anyway.


Also, OP, you should totally play KotOR 1. Guns are much much worse than they are in 2.

[MickJay]

Also, OP, you should totally play KotOR 1. Guns are much much worse than they are in 2.

Not if you have the expansion where you can buy some really powerful, upgradeable guns. Also, if you take 5-7 levels of Scoundrel for the sneak attacks and go jedi consular (force stun), you'll still do loads of damage, even with poor blasters.

[Cespenar]

I recently replayed Kotor 1 with a dual blaster wielding Scoundrel, and it's safe to say that it outdamages the other non-Jedi classes by far. Getting into Sneak Attack position is very easy since the AI isn't very clever, and with rapid flurry, master speed, etc. you get 5 attacks, +xd6 damage each (x=4 for me). Force powers help greatly to stun and allow even easier sneak attacks, and before that, concussion grenades are there for you.

[SparkMandriller]

If you're just going to stun people, I don't see why you can't just use two swords and do even more damage. I mean, with those special guns you do about the same base damage as a melee character, but they get a massive strength bonus. The range doesn't really help if people are stunned.

But yeah, OP, you should totally play without the DLC weapons. You actually get some decent pistols, if you're willing to wait until the game is like 75% over. Before that, not much. At all.

[Johnny Blade]

.

Slight spoiler ahead.


Doesn't the game scale the enemies to your level, but stop once you hit level 20? So you're level 30+, and the game's still throwing challenges appropriate for a level 20 character at you. I think I read that somewhere. It'd explain why it gets so easy, anyway.
To be honest, I don't know much about the game's inner workings. All I know is that, on my first of two playthroughs, the last time the game actually challenged me somewhat was during the Ebon Hawk defense on Nar Shaddaa, which was the first planet I visited once I could travel freely. This didn't change when I played the game a second time, and I didn't visit it first then.

Nar Shaddaa is, at times, a break from the usual difficulty levels anyway, or at least was so for me.


But, really, I don't even remember at what levels my Exiles were in the end.

[Trixie]

Deadly Stream (http://www.deadlystream.com/index.php) hosts a restoration mod that I think is currently in beta. I haven't checked it yet myself to know it's current state, but the impression I've been given is that there might be a few glitches but it's definitely playable (and it's not as if the vanilla KoTOR 2 didn't have a few glitches either)

The other restoration project I was following was by Team Gizka, but the project effectively died a year or two ago (it's technically still going, but the team is down to a single developer and there hasn't been any progress shown for over a year). It was from there I learned about the site above which is still active.

There's also better graphics/music pack on the Obsidian website.


I agree that it's bad, but I can't see how they could have possibly made it any good, with her stil in it...

What 'her'? :smallconfused:

[Comet]

What 'her'? :smallconfused:
Kreya, I would assume.
I dunno, I never found her that irritating. Especially when I actually got around to reading the full story and managed to understand what was really going on. The first time I played the game I was clueless as a snowman.

[Trixie]

Kreya, I would assume.
I dunno, I never found her that irritating. Especially when I actually got around to reading the full story and managed to understand what was really going on. The first time I played the game I was clueless as a snowman.

Yeah. She is one of the best and most memorable character in the whole series; no, I the whole of SW, I think.

"What if I told you I was once counted among the Jedi Masters? What if, perhaps, what the greatest Sith Lords know of evil, they learned from me..?"

"There are dark places in the Galaxy where few dare tread. Ancient centers of learning... of knowledge. But I did not walk alone. To be united by hatred is a fragile alliance at best..." :smallbiggrin:

[Foryn Gilnith]

Playing KOTOR 2 first, I thought it was alright. Got me thinking.

[Athaniar]

Yes, Kreia. She annoyed me greatly from the moment I met her, and I would have been much happier if I had been given the opportunity to kill her.

[Lord of Rapture]

... But you do. At the end.

But meh, she's the kind of character I love to hate. Subjective tastes and all that.

Also, looking over Youtube, HK-47 is much awesomer in KOTOR 2 than in 1. He gets better lines.

[Emperor Ing]

For those who say the Ranged build is underpowered, Jedi Marksman. :smallwink: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG4tG0gK_nI)

PM me if you want info on how to make this build.

[Drakyn]

... But you do. At the end.

But meh, she's the kind of character I love to hate. Subjective tastes and all that.

Also, looking over Youtube, HK-47 is much awesomer in KOTOR 2 than in 1. He gets better lines.

I think what he meant was that you never got a way to kill her on your own terms. Even when you kill her at the end of the game, it's because she wants you to. The same applies to not agreeing with her advice - it never actually can produce anything useful or make her think differently. If you ignore and argue against her advice throughout the game the worst you can do is disappoint her - there's few or no options that will actually make HER think twice or set her back on her heels. It's like Navi except instead of HAI LISTEN you get "Fool presumptuous fools imbecile the Jedi are stupid the Sith are stupid LISTEN TO ME YOU BRAT"
To a degree, I think Kreia's arguments only make sense because Obsidian carefully stacked the deck for them. The Jedi counsel is four times more unreasonable than they were in KotOR 1, because that's needed for the story to make sense, and they're also cowardly to one degree or another. Then they react REALLY weirdly and gang up on you, even the ones who liked you, when you meet with them on Dantooine. Then there's the most railroady conversation in the game: the homeless guy that asks you for money and no matter what option you pick you're told how silly you were.
On a less railroaded but irritating example of lack of dialogue options, helping people in general is talked down at, and there's no option to point out that a lot of good stuff will likely arise from some of your more benevolent choices that will MORE THAN make up for whatever tiny speck of energy you expended doing it.
If Kreia's force bond is the reason you can't kick her out of the group, fine. I'd have liked an option to make HER change her mind a couple times, that's all, or at least argue her point without instant dismissal. With her it felt like either "you agree with or deeply consider my words or you're a twit." Without these options it feels like there's no real counter to any of Kreia's debates, since either you're an immature naiva twit/murderous twit and therefore wrong or you agree perfectly with her. There's no real feel of sensible disagreement, the ability to have a character that forcibly rejects her philosophy without doing so in a stupid "imma Jeedi/Sithe! SO YUR WRONG" way.

[Grumman]

And worst of all, she's a telepath. After she nagged at me the first few times I tried to leave her in the ship, and she was still telling me off for being a nice person!

[Kish]

If Kreia's force bond is the reason you can't kick her out of the group, fine. I'd have liked an option to make HER change her mind a couple times, that's all, or at least argue her point without instant dismissal. With her it felt like either "you agree with or deeply consider my words or you're a twit." Without these options it feels like there's no real counter to any of Kreia's debates, since either you're an immature naiva twit/murderous twit and therefore wrong or you agree perfectly with her. There's no real feel of sensible disagreement, the ability to have a character that forcibly rejects her philosophy without doing so in a stupid "imma Jeedi/Sithe! SO YUR WRONG" way.
My reaction was very different. I don't think you have to treat her as an authority unless you want to; she is a Sith Lord, and she is evil, not all-wise. And at the end, when she thanked me for still trying to save her, it really worked for me; it felt like, after we'd gone through the galaxy disagreeing on everything, in the end, it would have disappointed her if I'd given in.

Of course, this only works if you don't see "Influence Lost: Kreia" as the computer saying, "WRONG!" If you're going on the assumption that the right options are the ones that maximize influence with everyone, then yes, Kreia's hard to please.

[Drakyn]

My reaction was very different. I don't think you have to treat her as an authority unless you want to; she is a Sith Lord, and she is evil, not all-wise. And at the end, when she thanked me for still trying to thank me, it really worked for me; it felt like, after we'd gone through the galaxy disagreeing on everything, in the end, it would have disappointed her if I'd given in.

Of course, this only works if you don't see "Influence Lost: Kreia" as the computer saying, "WRONG!" If you're going on the assumption that the right options are the ones that maximize influence with everyone, then yes, Kreia's hard to please.


My issue is more that Kreia IS treated as an authority in one major particular: you never quite get a way to tell her she's wrong that isn't more convincing than something on the level of "La la la I'm not listening" or "But you're WRONG!" and they all have about the impact on her that you'd expect. If, as a game designer, you want to have a convincing counter to your character's argument exist, you need to give the player one, and I'm pretty sure we weren't handed anything like that.
I suppose the other way to look at it is that Kreia is absolutely certain she's right and you can't change her mind about it regardless of how much sense you make, but that seems to be in the vein of the sort of thing she was complaining about with respect to the Jedi and Sith.
Then again, I'm likely either underthinking or overthinking this stuff. If Kreia was written to be deliberately annoying, I agree with everyone else saying she was written spectacularly. The issue I have with this is that it simply means she was REALLY GOOD at irritating you and you can only take so much of that, no matter how beautifully it's done.

[Pronounceable]

I suppose the other way to look at it is that Kreia is absolutely certain she's right and you can't change her mind about it regardless of how much sense you make, but that seems to be in the vein of the sort of thing she was complaining about with respect to the Jedi and Sith.

Haven't you ever tried to argue with a very old woman (or man)?

[Drakyn]

Haven't you ever tried to argue with a very old woman (or man)?

Yes. I still think they should've handed the player character some decent arguments if this is true, so at least we'd be able to see her obviously brainblank in the face of something convincing, rather than dismissing another pre-prepped "But you're wrong!" option that's the only disagreeable bit of dialogue we're allowed to use. But this is all a digression. Kreia annoying me is a distant third on my list of gripes with KotOR 2, the first being (as is everyone's) all the cut content that made the endgame an indecipherable hash, and the second being that the first two worlds are an unbearably boring string of metallic boxcorridors. First THREE, if you go to Nar Shaddaa first. Compare that to the first game's initial spread of environments and my teeth itch.

[deuxhero]

I'm really of the group that thinks the 2nd game is better than the first. It's story is actually original and (oddly) thought provoking (The Big Bad's motives and philosophy actually have some degree of reason, especially from the point of view of someone beyond the fourth wall) far less filler combat (the combat isn't any better, but there is far less used as filler). Even unfinished, the final areas are a lot more enjoyable than the star forge and it's endless amount of filler combat.

[Temotei]

I thought he meant Bastila. I thought she was more annoying. She talked less, true, but at least Kreia wasn't lame. :smallwink:

They both break the point-build limit your character gets though.

[deuxhero]

But Kreia actually uses her 40 point buy, Bastila just decides to be horribly MAD with hers.

[Temotei]

But Kreia actually uses her 40 point buy, Bastila just decides to be horribly MAD with hers.

True. She's also the first one to get a lightsaber though. Whoo! A level early! :smallbiggrin:

[Emperor Ing]

Yeah but she sucks ass with it. Horray for MAD. :smallyuk:

[Lord Thurlvin]

What is this MAD? I'm assuming it's an acronym.

[Flickerdart]

What is this MAD? I'm assuming it's an acronym.
Multiple Ability Dependency. Basically, a character that only needs one stat is a lot more effective in point buy than a character that needs lots of stats, in the same way that a Monk will suck more than a Barbarian or Fighter even if the Monk got a higher PB, because he needs the most stats to be high.

What irked me about KotOR 2 is that neutrality doesn't give you rewards, while Kreia happily teaches you the PrCs so long as you're extremely Light or Dark side. One would think that her philosophy would make a Neutral character even more powerful.

[Lord Thurlvin]

In the guide it says there's an item called "Bindo's Robes" that has a 31 defense bonus and can only be worn by neutral characters. But I've never seen it in the game.

[Emperor Ing]

It's likely one of those things that was too powerful to be put into the game. Robes like that would make a 1st level soldier the God Emperor of Death and able to cut through Malachor with a Plasma Torch.

[Flickerdart]

It's likely one of those things that was too powerful to be put into the game. Robes like that would make a 1st level soldier the God Emperor of Death and able to cut through Malachor with a Plasma Torch.
The presumption is that you wouldn't get them until high levels, I'd say, and AC doesn't help against force powers one bit.

[Emperor Ing]

Okay, maybe it won't save you against Traya and maybe Sion

[Lord of Rapture]

I'm really of the group that thinks the 2nd game is better than the first. It's story is actually original and (oddly) thought provoking (The Big Bad's motives and philosophy actually have some degree of reason, especially from the point of view of someone beyond the fourth wall) far less filler combat (the combat isn't any better, but there is far less used as filler). Even unfinished, the final areas are a lot more enjoyable than the star forge and it's endless amount of filler combat.

....Well, ****. I was hoping that the combat would've been better in the first game.

@Drakyn: I thought Kreia was SUPPOSED to make you extremely frustrated, ergo, why I don't have any complaints about the character.

[Trixie]

While we are talking about cut things...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOR0vTvxtUU

Here's one of the most badass exchanges in the game. A bit mangled, with ending and beginning shuffled, and the voices are a bit too silent, but it gives a good idea what could have been :smallsigh:

Oh, and don't watch it before you went to Dxun.

[Drakyn]

....Well, ****. I was hoping that the combat would've been better in the first game.

@Drakyn: I thought Kreia was SUPPOSED to make you extremely frustrated, ergo, why I don't have any complaints about the character.


Then again, I'm likely either underthinking or overthinking this stuff. If Kreia was written to be deliberately annoying, I agree with everyone else saying she was written spectacularly. The issue I have with this is that it simply means she was REALLY GOOD at irritating you and you can only take so much of that, no matter how beautifully it's done.

Second verse, same as the first. A frustrating and irritating character is odd, because the better-done it is, the less fun it is for the actual player. Especially if there's no option to kick them hard and squarely in the philisophical nutsack.
This aside, I'm just wrapping up a reread of the KotOR 2 LP. It's good stuff, but based on my memories of my own playthrough, it's largely because it's got someone filling in the huge honkin' gaps created by all the missing pieces. And Kreia is much less frustrating when someone else is dealing with her.
I think part of the obnoxiousness factor comes from the fact that players are used to having a certain amount of command or control over the NPCs with them, combined with Kreia's personality. Subverting that master/slave dynamic is neat - this NPC ain't your errand girl, she's your teacher! But then in comes the tricky part: the NPC is actively a gigantic pain in the rear and has a plotline mechanic to prevent you from exercising your decapitation-based management strategy.
At that point it just feels like someone out there sold you a $20 treaty on masochism. Having someone with you who isn't your valet, but an equal or superior to yourself, who will periodically undergo her own subtle decisions on the side and shape the plot at least as much as you do, rather than leaving it off at one sidequest? Neat as hell. Having someone with you who's irritating yet useful? Neat. Both as the same person? Slightly less fun.

[Emperor Ing]

While we are talking about cut things...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOR0vTvxtUU

Here's one of the most badass exchanges in the game. A bit mangled, with ending and beginning shuffled, and the voices are a bit too silent, but it gives a good idea what could have been :smallsigh:

Oh, and don't watch it before you went to Dxun.

Here's one of my favorite pieces of cut content...:smallfrown:

Linky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT-k6LkJnIw)

[Mewtarthio]

Here's one of my favorite pieces of cut content...:smallfrown:

Linky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT-k6LkJnIw)

I hear there's something similar out there for Visas and Brianna. Anyone found it?

[Lord Thurlvin]

Wasn't there some group that was working on restoring everything for a mod? Whatever happened with that, if it even existed?

[Milskidasith]

I hear there's something similar out there for Visas and Brianna. Anyone found it?

It's a video response to the video linked... shouldn't be hard to see.

[Trazoi]

Wasn't there some group that was working on restoring everything for a mod? Whatever happened with that, if it even existed?
Yes, there's one called TSLRCM (The Sith Lords Restoration Content Mod). It's hosted at Deadly Stream (http://www.deadlystream.com/) but they seem to be in the process of updating their site; you might find it with some Google searches. Last I heard they were in open beta, but I think they've only got bug fixes to go now. The impression I've got is that it is currently at a state where it is definitely worth trying; if I ever get around to playing KoTOR II a second time, I'll be installing this mod.

There's also TSLRP (The Sith Lords Restoration Project), which was nearing completion but the project appears to have terminally stalled.

[Fri]

Quoted from another thread about kotor 2




Anyway, kotor 2 hold a special place in my heart since it's actually the first kotor that I played.

yes, it's DAMN CONFUSING. I almost didn't understand one single paragraph of it. I kept getting reference on revan or malak or something else, but I don't know who that is. And kreia even got less sense.

But for some reason, it turned the game story into something... mythical. Since I don't even know what happened in the first game (just like the exile) legends and true events got mixed in my head. What actually happened previously? Why did the republic got so destroyed?

It was mind numbingly screwy, but it was awesome in 'i don't have a frakkin clue what's going on here' kind of way.

Then I got kotor 1, and things starting to get more sense. IT WAS AWESOME.

Like what star wars movies supposed to be. With episode 4 first, then episode 1.

Seriously, imagine what's going on in my head.

On KOTOR 2, the republic is almost in a post apocalyptic condition. Jedis are lost. Planets were destroyed and we could only see the ruins. Everything is generally dark and foreboding and dangerous, with zombie sith running around and everything.

THEN

I got KOTOR 1, when everything is still shiny, JEDI AND SITH ARE EVERYWHERE, epic adventure abound, and it explain things from the first game. I felt like I was playing a legend, an epic legend, the legendary revan.

IT. WAS. FRAKKIN. AWESOME.

I hereby recommend that from now on, people must play the second game first.

[Lord of Rapture]

So for once, I did what you pleased. Interesting.

[Fri]

It filled me with shame.

[Lord of Rapture]

You know what else I can fill you with shame with?

I watched one of the episodes of the first series of Macross (not Frontier). And I LIKED it! Ha!

[SolkaTruesilver]

Blasters? Weak? Are you... joking?

A fully upgraded blaster is the strongest thing in the game. Crits a quarter of the time, never misses, never gets deflected (I think the final talent tree is like a -20 or something to enemies deflection rolls), kills in one burst. Master Knights Speed + Rapid Shot + two blasters fully upgraded will kill even bosses in two bursts at best, assuming you don't level grind with the glitch (higher level = higher level enemies = more enemy health, even though blasters are already maxed pretty easily.)

You forgot one element...

Jedi Consular + Sith Assassin. +7d6 Sneak damage/attack. I was spanning about 6 hits/rounds in the high 40's.. Insanity is a powerful weapon...

And even then, this buildup I toiled during all the game. Searching the best weapons available. Building the greatest components that could be. Assembling the mightiest gun in existence, sacrificing feats..

I still crushed Darth Sion with my ultimate Dark Force Power: Force Crush, and nothing else.

Oh.. that game was so fun. I played it with a rational dark lord of the Sith. One that made powerful alliances, kept everyone on a leash but digged out their potential. One that required as payment to General Vaklu all their Force-Sensitive children forever, in order to build my new Sith Order... :smallbiggrin: (I am still incredibly happy at that conversation option! 100% useless in-game, 100% role-playing)

[Lord of Rapture]

Dang, can I do it with a Jedi class? Being evil is so uncool to me in RPGs. :smallfrown:

Don't ask me why, I just don't like it.

[Kiero]

Upgrades certainly make blasters a lot better, and much less imbalanced compared to the first game. But melee weapons of all descriptions (lightsabers and vibroblades) still do a load more damage when upgraded than blasters do.

Even with the highest-spec damage-focused upgrades for blasters, they still do about 20 points less damage than a vibrosword or lightsaber with similarly focused mods.

Here's a list (http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/920601/36339) of the upgrades and what they do.

As to the game, the Influence system and the rewards it gives you make it instantly a more interesting and fun game for me than the first game's boring exposition-without-reward from the NPCs. Once you've played the first game through once, I really couldn't care less what your companions have to say.

[Emperor Ing]

The best Blaster build is dual Micro-Pulse Blasters with...err..crippling scope III I think Crippling Scope MK4, Mandalorian Chamber III, and Pure Rylith Cell upgrades in each of them, turns everything in Malachor into tissue paper as long as you have the right feats set up.

[Kish]

Dang, can I do it with a Jedi class? Being evil is so uncool to me in RPGs. :smallfrown:

Don't ask me why, I just don't like it.

Jedi Watchmen get Sneak Attack, but Insanity is a dark-side power, and Force Crush requires being evil.

[Emperor Ing]

Dang, can I do it with a Jedi class? Being evil is so uncool to me in RPGs. :smallfrown:

Don't ask me why, I just don't like it.

well if you're playing a Caster Jedi, you'll get soooooo many force points by the end of the game that alignment penalites for dark side force powers won't matter. I had a Sith Lord character who, by the end of the game, had 250-something hp and 1000-something force points.

[Kiero]

Jedi Watchmen get Sneak Attack, but Insanity is a dark-side power, and Force Crush requires being evil.

Insanity might be a dark side power, but you don't have to be a darksider to use it.

In any case, I always found it more useful having one of the NPCs play wizard, and sticking to smacking things.

[Morty]

Jedi Watchmen get Sneak Attack, but Insanity is a dark-side power, and Force Crush requires being evil.

You can score Sneak Attacks on enemies in Statis just as easily, though. Why is Statis a Light Side power, I don't know.
Not that it matters all that much, since KoToR 2 is easy up until a certain point, and later on it becomes really easy.

[tyckspoon]

well if you're playing a Caster Jedi, you'll get soooooo many force points by the end of the game that alignment penalites for dark side force powers won't matter. I had a Sith Lord character who, by the end of the game, had 250-something hp and 1000-something force points.

You will also probably have a high enough Charisma to mitigate most of the wrong-side penalty. Nothing keeps you from using the opposite-side powers as a caster build except roleplaying concerns.. a Lightsider really shouldn't be using the Wound/Choke/Kill line, but there's nothing stopping a Darksider from picking up Healing and the other enhancement powers.

I always preferred Force Wave anyway. Run into a room, repeatedly crush all opposition against the walls. And it's not even Evil!

[LurkerInPlayground]

You will also probably have a high enough Charisma to mitigate most of the wrong-side penalty. Nothing keeps you from using the opposite-side powers as a caster build except roleplaying concerns.. a Lightsider really shouldn't be using the Wound/Choke/Kill line, but there's nothing stopping a Darksider from picking up Healing and the other enhancement powers.

I always preferred Force Wave anyway. Run into a room, repeatedly crush all opposition against the walls. And it's not even Evil!
Wisdom gives Force Points though. So it's a little more versatile. As stated, you have so many FP's by end-game that the penalty is irrelevant.

Plague is also a nice Dark Side boss-killing debuff.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Once you're done with the game, you should read the extremely long but utterly awesome Let's Play of it from Something Awful forums. There you can see what KotoR2 was really meant to be.

Indeed. That was full of win. Re-link. (http://lparchive.org/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/index.html) Revived my interest in CRPGs.

[Vorpalbob]

I played through both KotORs twice, and loved them. I do prefer being good over evil, but my mild OCD forces me to see the alternate alignment ending.

Kotor 2

1st play= Light-side, Consular, single lightsaber. consulars are kind of hard, especially since I chose force powers poorly.

2nd play= Dark side, Guardian, dual sabers. the game was way. too. easy. only Kreia and Darth Zombie gave me trouble, but beat them second or third try.

dual weapons are ALWAYS superior to single, and it is easier to become bitchin' with melee, but more damage potential lies with ranged.

[Emperor Ing]

Generally, Light Side Consulars have a disadvantage. Dark Side Consulars are Avatars of Death as pretty much all of the dark side force powers are made of pwn. They made dual sabers way more powerful than single sabers in KOTOR 2 as most of the jedi prestige classes continue the Dual Weapon Fighting feat tree to the point where you get bonuses to hit for dual wielding.

As for Darth Zombie, he was a joke for me. In my latest melee build (and even some of my Ranged builds) I was able to knock him down on the first round of combat 3 times (damn Bastila ripoff :smallyuk:). :smallwink:

Here's a bit of advice, to maximize combat effectiveness and damage output, activate Juyo lightsaber form, and use Master Speed or Force Enlightenment, as well as the Rapid Shot / Flurry feats, and BAM!! Instant 6 attacks per round. :smallbiggrin:

[Milskidasith]

Upgrades certainly make blasters a lot better, and much less imbalanced compared to the first game. But melee weapons of all descriptions (lightsabers and vibroblades) still do a load more damage when upgraded than blasters do.

Even with the highest-spec damage-focused upgrades for blasters, they still do about 20 points less damage than a vibrosword or lightsaber with similarly focused mods.

Here's a list (http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/920601/36339) of the upgrades and what they do.

As to the game, the Influence system and the rewards it gives you make it instantly a more interesting and fun game for me than the first game's boring exposition-without-reward from the NPCs. Once you've played the first game through once, I really couldn't care less what your companions have to say.


Upgraded blasters have better feats, hit more, and hit from range, and hit more accurately. They are strictly better than melee. Not to mention lightsabers can't be built from scratch because you need to find crystals, which aren't always found in every playthrough.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Upgraded blasters have better feats, hit more, and hit from range, and hit more accurately. They are strictly better than melee. Not to mention lightsabers can't be built from scratch because you need to find crystals, which aren't always found in every playthrough.

Upgraded blasters are easily blocked by deflector shields. Unstoppable damage is rare and can rarely be upgraded.

[Arcanoi]

I think there might be... a dozen enemies throughout the game that use Deflector Shields.... maybe two dozen.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I think there might be... a dozen enemies throughout the game that use Deflector Shields.... maybe two dozen.

AI/game designer stupidity is no validation for an underpowered build..

But on ther other hand, lightsabers are also blocked by energy shields. I withdraw my argument

[LurkerInPlayground]

Nah. Light Side Consulars are easy too. Force Wave is a universal power and it's pretty much like Force Storm that sacrifices damage for a control element. Basically, not much changes. Everything in the room dies from being thrown against the walls repeatedly as opposed to dying from electrocution.

Light Siders can also take Dark Side powers. I'm fond of Plague.

Force Speed tree pretty much makes them passable fighters too.

[tyckspoon]

I think there might be... a dozen enemies throughout the game that use Deflector Shields.... maybe two dozen.

And if you really care about it you can keep a pair of disruptor-type weapons around. Or just blow through the shields in a couple of attacks with your absurd damage output anyway. Or blast the shield-wearing obstructions with a Force power. The game's easy enough that it doesn't really matter; temporary protection against your primary attack type is only moderately more difficult to deal with than normal opponents.

[Kish]

AI/game designer stupidity is no validation for an underpowered build..
If it's not underpowered in the game, it's not underpowered. Building a character who you intend to play in a game to do perfectly in theorycrafting without regard for what's actually in the game is silly and will get the person who does it no sympathy from this quarter when the game kicks the player's ass.

[Milskidasith]

Isn't saying a rare type of shield (I never remember shielded enemies, anyway, or at least never shields that lasted) block the blasters kind of like saying all builds are underpowered because you can be instakilled if the game used force crush on you?

[SolkaTruesilver]

Isn't saying a rare type of shield (I never remember shielded enemies, anyway, or at least never shields that lasted) block the blasters kind of like saying all builds are underpowered because you can be instakilled if the game used force crush on you?

Shields are supposed to be pretty common in the game. And seeing the number you find and can build, they are.

Force powers aren't supposed to be prevalent.

But I withdraw my point that it was underpowered, on the basis that this weakness also exists for lightsabers.

[Milskidasith]

Shields are supposed to be pretty common in the game. And seeing the number you find and can build, they are.

Not on enemies. Enemies never use them. It doesn't matter if there is a shield that says "you are immune to blasters", if the enemies don't use it it can be ignored.


Force powers aren't supposed to be prevalent.

That's exactly my point, and you missed it entirely. The shields don't work as a counterargument for blasters because they aren't ever used. If shields are your argument, then you could also use other things enemies never use as an argument.


But I withdraw my point that it was underpowered, on the basis that this weakness also exists for lightsabers.

You should retract your point on the basis it is irrelevant for either build because so few enemies ever use shields.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Not on enemies. Enemies never use them. It doesn't matter if there is a shield that says "you are immune to blasters", if the enemies don't use it it can be ignored.

That's exactly my point, and you missed it entirely. The shields don't work as a counterargument for blasters because they aren't ever used. If shields are your argument, then you could also use other things enemies never use as an argument.

You should retract your point on the basis it is irrelevant for either build because so few enemies ever use shields.

Mate, drop it. You aren't even understanding what I meant, nor you are trying to. Power gamezzzz ftw n00b!

[Calemyr]

Personally, I always favored Mandalorian Rippers when looking for blasters. Fully upgradable high performance weaponry using the unstoppable damage type? It's one of the elements that can make T3-M4 into the rolling Dustbin of Death.

As for builds, I'm personally partial to armored fighter types, usually either sentinel/weapon masters or guardian/weapon masters depending on whether the character is skill focused or feat focused. Most of the force powers you can use while armored are pretty good, including Force Storm, which can easily be the last word in crowd control. For my party, I like to keep a twin blade saber wielder, a dual pistol user, and an unarmed fighter (usually Exile, T3, and Bao), since all three styles are very effective. Wizard types are meaningless when your tanks can AoE nuke with the best of them.

As for KotOR 1 vs 2, I'd go with 2 every time. The ending is a disappointment, but the characters are more interesting, the plot more intricate, T3 isn't a joke character, and the jedi wear robes rather than jumpsuits. Besides that, there is nothing in KotOR 1 as awesome as the climax of Nar Shaada. No, not even that. Seriously:
A band of bounty hunters are blocking the NPCs from coming to the Exile's aid. Their spokesman delivers an ultimatum to the group, making heavy useage of the word "very". Atton Rand and Bao-Dur look at eachother quizically after hearing the speech.
Atton: Did you get anything out of that? All I got was the word "very".
Bao-Dur: I believe this bounty hunter is asking us to hand over the General to him and his group of poorly trained thugs.
Atton: Ah, all right, then. Which one do you want?
Bao-Dur: I'll take the stupid one that gave up the element of surprise in order to make threats.


There are also at least two moments (the Yacht and the Academy) where I felt ridiculously powerful - which is not the same as easy. Systematically crippling the yacht was a lot of fun and I found it hard not to feel a sense of vengence-filled rage as I mowed my way through the Academy's defenses in pursuit of payback. And not to mention the HK droids - they're a whole lot more fun to talk to once you learn their lingo.

I never heard that bit about Lucas not allowing a content patch, though. That's just dirty pool. Obsidian was the one who stood to lose the most face when the game failed. I mean, nobody ever expected a Star Wars game to be any good in the first place, did they?

[Kiero]

The only disappointment with KotOR 2 is the lack of Force-using enemies until virtually the end.

[Dixieboy]

Upgraded blasters have better feats, hit more, and hit from range, and hit more accurately. They are strictly better than melee. Not to mention lightsabers can't be built from scratch because you need to find crystals, which aren't always found in every playthrough.

Well, except for the best ones.

[SparkMandriller]

Mate, drop it. You aren't even understanding what I meant, nor you are trying to.

I think that's because your argument makes no damn sense.

[Xenogears]

I think that's because your argument makes no damn sense.

It makes sense if you want to immerse yourself in the world and pretend you are the Exile instead of playing a game though. Besides 90% of the enemies I killed had shields on them. They just never though it was a good idea to use them... despite me shooting blasters at them...with my shields on...

[Wreckingrocc]

That game's amazing. I remember the first time I played, I didn't bother learning the d20 system, and ended up running an evil consular with something around 12 Wisdom. I got really confused when my Force Storm Spam ceased to work.

My second playthrough was better. Once I actually figured out what was going on in combat, it became immensely fun, albeit easy. I just feel like there's a little too much going on in the ways of sidequests and such. It always took me so damn long to find the most beneficial way of doing everything, that the game seemed to stretch on to eternity.

I really should pick that back up again soon... The most fun in the game definitely comes from trying to get a team of mixed good and evil characters, methinks. Making Visas' alignment opposed to yours is extremely difficult, and extremely rewarding.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Meh. I always found the sliding scale morality system to be obnoxious. Considering that this is supposed to be a game about the little decadent problems about morality that Star Wars has accumulated, it's a bit frustrating that your dialogue options are so pathetically limited.

Basically your options are always:
- I would never do such a horrible thing!
- <sycophantic agreement with no qualifiers>
- <option that you know will doom you to losing influence, because you can't exactly frame an opinion here>
- <reiterating information your character already knew>
- Let's kick puppies and punch babies!

[Lord of Rapture]

You just pointed out that water is wet.

Really, when has any morality scale been implemented realistically well in video games?

[Trixie]

In Dragon Age? :smalltongue:

[Kish]

It makes sense if you want to immerse yourself in the world and pretend you are the Exile instead of playing a game though.
If you want to play your character as assuming many enemies will use energy shields, that's one thing. Talking about "underpowered builds" needing "justification" manages to be even worse if you're trying to immerse yourself in the game than it is if you're trying to statistically optimize a character.

[SolkaTruesilver]

If you want to play your character as assuming many enemies will use energy shields, that's one thing. Talking about "underpowered builds" needing "justification" manages to be even worse if you're trying to immerse yourself in the game than it is if you're trying to statistically optimize a character.

I told you, let it drop. You don't want to understand, that's fine by me. It isn't worth an argument.

[Kish]

Your apparent confusion of me with Milskidasith aside, I believe I understand perfectly. If you wish to stop posting on the subject, go ahead.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Your apparent confusion of me with Milskidasith aside, I believe I understand perfectly. If you wish to stop posting on the subject, go ahead.

oops! :smalleek:

[Emperor Ing]

If you make your build around the assumption that everyone uses energy shields, you're gonna get owned. :smallwink:

Seriously, very few characters outside the Peragus droids use energy shields. Speaking of energy shields wether or not they matter is irrelevent, because if you make your build right you should be doing 100+ damage every attack.

[SolkaTruesilver]

If you make your build around the assumption that everyone uses energy shields, you're gonna get owned. :smallwink:

Seriously, very few characters outside the Peragus droids use energy shields. Speaking of energy shields wether or not they matter is irrelevent, because if you make your build right you should be doing 100+ damage every attack.

Do you know if it's possible to make a "difficulty" mod? In order to increase the AI/behavior of the ennemies, so they would be more challenging in the endgame, and have proper strategies when it comes to grenades and energy shieldings?

[deuxhero]

Difficulty isn't fun when the combat is crap.

[Dixieboy]

In Dragon Age? :smalltongue:

The joke being that there isn't one.

[Xenogears]

If you make your build around the assumption that everyone uses energy shields, you're gonna get owned. :smallwink:

Seriously, very few characters outside the Peragus droids use energy shields. Speaking of energy shields wether or not they matter is irrelevent, because if you make your build right you should be doing 100+ damage every attack.

I dunno. I found it hard to not dominate every fight no matter what I did unless I purposely gimped characters...

That said I hated how every time I started a fight my fighting stlye thingy would reset to the basic one. Got to the point I just started ignoring it as wasting that precious 2 seconds was too annoying.

[Emperor Ing]

that only happens if you enter a new area. But IMO, Force Potency and Juyo are the best.

[Lord Thurlvin]

I just finished a consular/sith lord playthrough. You people aren't joking about the ridiculous over-powerdness of force crush. The only thing it doesn't help much with is the second phase of the last battle.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I just finished a consular/sith lord playthrough. You people aren't joking about the ridiculous over-powerdness of force crush. The only thing it doesn't help much with is the second phase of the last battle.

Insanity works on lightsabers

Don't ask.

[Lord Thurlvin]

I recently found out that if certain conditions are met, Atton is supposed to break the fourth wall in some way. If this is true, how do I get it to happen?

[deuxhero]

Beat the game twice, or edit your ini file to say you have done so.

[Emperor Ing]

I recently found out that if certain conditions are met, Atton is supposed to break the fourth wall in some way. If this is true, how do I get it to happen?


I dunno how, but sometimes at the beginning of the game when you first meet him, ask him his name and he'll tell you he was added last minute and he was supposed to be a character in a spinoff of Jedi Knight