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taltamir
2009-12-30, 07:04 PM
i think one of the major issues of casters overshadowing non casters in battle (I concede that their out of combat flexibility is amazing if they can swap spells daily) is not an inherant strength of magic, but an issue of time management...

in 3e, casters have only strong daily powers. non casters have weak at will powers...

Who is stronger is exactly a function of how much time passes between encounters, how much rest you are given, how many encounters you have per day, etc... And since PCs can usually chose to run away and regroup, they are given enough time and rest so that casters are completely overpowered...

in CRPG adaptations you are often forced to slaughter hundreds of enemies within a single "day", and casters are vastly under powered (unless they give you unlimited rest, in which case vastly overpowered; yet extremely tedious to play).

Some casters (the tier 1 casters; wizard and cleric, but not sorcerer and favored soul) have access to an infinite amount of different "daily" powers, which they may exchange freely every day (aka, prepare different spells today, learn new spells from someone else, etc).

this was one of the fundamental changes in 4e, now everyone has "daily", "encounter", and "at will powers", and they have an equal amount of it. whether it is a "special sword technique" or a "spell" doesn't matter, its either a weak one that is at will, a medium strength one per encounter, or a very strong one that is daily.

I posit that a 3.5e game where you have 30+ encounters per day will have casters as vastly underpowered compared to non casters.

EDIT: 30+ encounters each made up of a bunch of weaker enemies, instead of 1 strong enemy... the exact composition of the encounters also matters... A CR X encounter can be 1 strong monster or multiple weaker ones... the more weaker monsters, the less effective magic becomes.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-30, 07:08 PM
CoDzilla's day-long buffs laugh at you.

taltamir
2009-12-30, 07:10 PM
CoDzilla's day-long buffs laugh at you.

that is a serious issue I overlooked...
but unless you abuse nightsticks, you are limited to only a few of those per day... so divine power and a few more.
1. Overall, after your spells run out, you are still weaker than a dedicated combat class, like a barb.
2. in 30+ encounter not a single enemy hit you with dispel magic?

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-30, 07:15 PM
I can't do in-depth combat analysis, since I'm not a hardcore powergamer. However, I suspect this means that mages' relative monopoly on non-combat utility will shine more, since they're worse at combat.

Roc Ness
2009-12-30, 07:15 PM
You could just say it's a war. A large war. You-know, the kind where battles last a week nonstop? Suddenly Craft Wand/Staff feats become a lot more viable, as you need your resources to last, and you have to do something before your so powerful killing things won't net you xp any longer.

EDIT: Hey, what about warlocks?

jmbrown
2009-12-30, 07:17 PM
Who is stronger is exactly a function of how much time passes between encounters, how much rest you are given, how many encounters you have per day, etc... And since PCs can usually chose to run away and regroup, they are given enough time and rest so that casters are completely overpowered...

To an extent, yes. I mentioned in the "obscure rules" topic that clerics have to choose a time of day to pray. If the party is resting and the cleric is on watch during his choosen time, he has to take that time to pray or else he willingly forgoes his spells for the day. Now an event outside of the clerics control (like a monster encounter) interrupts his prayer, he has to return to his prayers immediately after when he gets the chance.

Random encounters ensure a party should keep on their toes but wizards can circumvent them through low level magic like rope trick. The DM can enforce time sensitive events but then you'll have players crying "no fair" because they used up all their spells in the first five minutes of the day.

The real "fix" is a simple one: reduce the effectiveness of casters. In AD&D terms this meant that casters couldn't move while casting, they lost their AC bonus from dexterity, defensive casting didn't exist, being damaged or failing a save made you lose a spell, falling unconscious made you forget all spells, memorizing spells took 10 minute per spell level, bonus spells from high intelligence didn't exist, most touch spells didn't last past the round they were cast, and saving throws were a factor of the monster's hit dice not ability score so save-or-die spells weren't as serious.

As it stands casters have too many spells and too many ways to circumvent combat allowing them access to more spells. If you want to weaken them then you have to get rid of those two factors.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-30, 07:21 PM
The DM can enforce time sensitive events but then you'll have players crying "no fair" because they used up all their spells in the first five minutes of the day.

Then the players can suck it up for wasting their resources. People whine about everything; doesn't mean you have to go cater to everyone's petty whims. They're playing a full caster, and they've already been initiated into the world of cunning via Rope Trick. What right do they have to complain?

Ernir
2009-12-30, 07:24 PM
I posit that a 3.5e game where you have 30+ encounters per day will have casters as vastly underpowered compared to non casters.
Remember, noncasters have finite resources too. Most obviously, hit points.

A Barbarian on his 23rd non-trivial combat encounter of the day is not going to be much happier than the Sorcerer, I'd think. =/


I'm pretty sure the difference would be smaller in a game where the characters were somehow forced to fight an obscene number of fights than in one where there is only one encounter/day. It is still not going to fix the imbalance.

taltamir
2009-12-30, 07:25 PM
You could just say it's a war. A large war. You-know, the kind where battles last a week nonstop? Suddenly Craft Wand/Staff feats become a lot more viable, as you need your resources to last, and you have to do something before your so powerful killing things won't net you xp any longer.

EDIT: Hey, what about warlocks?

warlocks are "special archers"... weak at will abilities.
I like them, they fit in perfectly with martial characters in a 3e game.


To an extent, yes. I mentioned in the "obscure rules" topic that clerics have to choose a time of day to pray. If the party is resting and the cleric is on watch during his choosen time, he has to take that time to pray or else he willingly forgoes his spells for the day. Now an event outside of the clerics control (like a monster encounter) interrupts his prayer, he has to return to his prayers immediately after when he gets the chance.

Random encounters ensure a party should keep on their toes but wizards can circumvent them through low level magic like rope trick. The DM can enforce time sensitive events but then you'll have players crying "no fair" because they used up all their spells in the first five minutes of the day.

Which basically means that the balance between the two is that they take turns sucking, and it is the DM's call on who is "out" for any given combat..
basically the DM says "ok, casters sucked for long enough, not its their turn to shine", then they run out and they suck until he turns the clock again...

Or it could also be a function of set events (they will attack in 2 days)... that limit your time.


The real "fix" is a simple one: reduce the effectiveness of casters. In AD&D terms this meant that casters couldn't move while casting, they lost their AC bonus from dexterity, defensive casting didn't exist, being damaged or failing a save made you lose a spell, falling unconscious made you forget all spells, memorizing spells took 10 minute per spell level, bonus spells from high intelligence didn't exist, most touch spells didn't last past the round they were cast, and saving throws were a factor of the monster's hit dice not ability score so save-or-die spells weren't as serious.[/quotes]
That isn't a fix at all, those just somewhat shift the time issue, but it is still just a matter of time and taking turns sucking.

[quote]As it stands casters have too many spells and too many ways to circumvent combat allowing them access to more spells. If you want to weaken them then you have to get rid of those two factors.

avoiding combat doesn't make you overpowered, it makes you survive... but I am discussing combat balance... out of combat you want to just limit spells known to prevent them from having unlimited utility

jmbrown
2009-12-30, 07:25 PM
Then the players can suck it up for wasting their resources. People whine about everything; doesn't mean you have to go cater to everyone's petty whims. They're playing a full caster, and they've already been initiated into the world of cunning via Rope Trick. What right do they have to complain?

I say the exact same thing but sadly we're a minority. Time management is the wizard's worst enemy but the wizard can defeat time purely through utility. Around level 5-7 a wizard will probably never sleep at night completely tapped out of spells. That's how powerful they can possibly become.


avoiding combat doesn't make you overpowered, it makes you survive... but I am discussing combat balance... out of combat you want to just limit spells known to prevent them from having unlimited utility

There's a difference between surviving and circumventing. The wizard can teleport into the dragon's cave, take his shiny gem, and teleport out with maybe a singed robe. No one else can do that.

Zaydos
2009-12-30, 07:26 PM
30+ encounters made up of multiple mooks?
Yeah none of them are going to have the CL to dispell reliably. We're talking about a much lower CL than we'll have. Also with non-persisted long duration buffs it depends upon how long between combats. If you go for 1 hour/level or even 10 minute/level and are having an encounter every 5 minutes you're still getting a lot of use out of those spells. It will make long duration buffs better and SoDs worse. Anything single target is worse and multitarget spells are better.

You will also find AC is better as against multipl low CR creatures you can make it so that they only hit on a 20 without nearly as much trouble as making it worth while against an equal CR creature.

Yes endurance matches will push things towards melee, especially if you take longer than even mage armor lasts. My current character should be able to handle 4 encounters but when we first tested him he only had useful spells to fight one encounter because he held back before (using glitterdust once) and even then not enough. I changed his spells (more DD actually because low level save or sucks didn't do enough to keep that many prepared) and he should have more endurance.

That said as long as he's fighting CR -4~5 mooks he can melee them (albeit slowly and tediously), not well but with Greater Luminous Armor and Dragonskin up they need a 20 to hit. So for the first hour and a half he wades through encounters and then he starts burning spells. When his Dragonskin is gone the melee combatant's barkskin will be too (leaving them at equal melee AC) and when his luminous armor is gone so too will the greater mage armor on the unarmed swordsage. At that point nobody has the AC to keep going, except the warlock."

Just thought of druids. This does nothing to stop them. 9 hours in first animal form. 9 hours in second. 9 hours in third. Plus Animal Companion they just keep killing. Only thing that goes against the druid in the party I'm going to be playing in is her lower AC than the swordsage, but once 9 hours pass that's equal and she's just plain stronger.

taltamir
2009-12-30, 07:27 PM
Remember, noncasters have finite resources too. Most obviously, hit points.

A Barbarian on his 23rd non-trivial combat encounter of the day is not going to be much happier than the Sorcerer, I'd think. =/

I'm pretty sure the difference would be smaller in a game where the characters were somehow forced to fight an obscene number of fights than in one where there is only one encounter/day. It is still not going to fix the imbalance.

when the spells run out, casters and non casters are now fighting with bows, arrows, and swords.

The non casters have more HP, and more AC, and better to hit... in other words, those resources last longer for them then they do for the casters.

I think the fix to this sort of imbalance already exists in 4e... give everyone X daily, Y encounter, and Z at will powers... balance those against each other. (don't compare the at will powers of class A to the daily power of class B)

JonestheSpy
2009-12-30, 07:29 PM
I think Taltamir's pretty much on it - most examples of unbeatable wizardliness seem to take for granted the ability and inclination to retreat and rest up at will. I think that should be pretty easy for a competent DM to manage - adventures where time is a factor is the obvious one, or the knowledge that if one retreats and comes backpursuing the same goal later your enemies will be reinforced, on alert, and generally far better prepared than the first time.

(Likewise, IMO no DM worth their dice should let clerics get away with cheesey full-day extension silliness. It's a badly concieved bit of splatbookery that pretty much everyone acknowledges unbalances the game.)

I'll just add that time management problems also overpower spellcasters in combat - there was just a rather long discussion about casters being able to simply take a five-foot step away from enemies and cast without danger in the middle of melee. I always try to rule for common sense in such circumstances - in real life, your opponent would obviously be following you, so no freebies. Yes, it's messing with game mechanics a bit, but as it's both completely logical AND helps rebalance things, so totally worth it.


Oh, and:



in CRPG adaptations you are often forced to slaughter hundreds of enemies within a single "day", and casters are vastly under powered (unless they give you unlimited rest, in which case vastly overpowered; yet extremely tedious to play).


I usually try to play CRPG's as if there is a time limit to make it interesting, even if there isn't. In Baldur's Gate 2, for instance, you're supposed to be spending the first part of the game rescuing Imoen and there's certainly the idea in the narrative that something bad will happen to her soonish, but the game actually let's you take as long as you want without consequence. I always push the party pretty much to the brink of death and exhaustion before resting, just to stay true to the story.

olentu
2009-12-30, 07:31 PM
A point of consideration is perhaps that for this to be viable the encounters should probably be reasonably deflatable without the use of spells as if they are not then everyone dies when the spells run out since the spells are necessary.

taltamir
2009-12-30, 07:34 PM
I usually try to play CRPG's as if there is a time limit to make it interesting, even if there isn't. In Baldur's Gate 2, for instance, you're supposed to be spending the first part of the game rescuing Imoen and there's certainly the idea in the narrative that something bad will happen to her soonish, but the game actually let's you take as long as you want without consequence. I always push the party pretty much to the brink of death and exhaustion before resting, just to stay true to the story.

I have played many of them over and over using various self imposed limitations... from "rest at will" to "rest ever X real time minutes" to "don't rest unless plot indicates a day has passed"...
first option makes casters gods.
second option, it greatly depends on how many real time minutes pass
third option makes casters a huge PITA to play, and vastly weaker than pure melee classes...

and soloing also greatly pushes it towards the melee side. having a tank is assumed and needed for most casters.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-30, 07:34 PM
Observe, for an example, the psion. The psion is often considered more balanced than the wizard. Is this because the psion has less daily powers? No; in fact, the psion has much more nova power than the wizard. The psion is more balanced because the psion is weaker. In AD&D terms, "weaker" meant [list of things jmbrown mentioned]. But as the more modern gamer isn't terribly fond of AD&D, "weaker" has to take on other meanings.

If you try to balance casters by finagling with time, it's not necessarily a universal inhibitor. Not every scenario will realistically call for an endurance run. On the other hand, if you generally nerf casters (through AD&D regression, or simple weakening of possible effects), they will universally be inhibited.

Flickerdart
2009-12-30, 07:36 PM
Casters can make very one-sided deals to get Outsider servants, which last a day per caster level. Having a few fiends at your beck and call means the caster can stay back and watch them shank his enemies for him, expending no spell slots in the process. Summoning also gives you critters with SLAs, maximizing the bang for your buck, and Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer wands mean you can have 150 spell levels in your pocket in case you run out.
By increasing the length of adventuring days, you also make Theurges incredibly powerful. All those slots actually become useful. A Jade Phoenix Mage or Eldritch Theurge especially, but your plain old Mystic Theurge is going to get a chance to shine.

Eldariel
2009-12-30, 07:36 PM
This leaves Druid on the top of the heap since his best buffs (Wildshape, Greater Magic Fang, couple o' Extended Barkskins, Venomfire, etc.) are all-day and can be shared with his Animal Companion. Well, not that the Druid really ever was anywhere but the top anyways.

Note though, you must make battles hard enough that the casters need to expend resources. Otherwise, I see no reason to cast a spell against a bunch of mooks my buffed warrior (be it Planar Bound Creature, Druid, Cleric, Barbarian or Fighter) can solo with little damage that can just be Wanded away anyways. If I've got a Wand or a Reserve Feat or some decent weapon with abilities to use it, I'll be taking potshots, but otherwise I'll most likely just steer clear while shooting my (Cross)bow.

And if you keep pushing with encounters of that difficulty until the party is out of resources, how do you expect them to survive the encounters when out of resources? If the battles are all so tough that casters need to burn resources, and then they run into a battle of that difficulty without resources, how are the non-casters supposed to make up for lacking Glitterdust, Web and company for support?


A well-played caster doesn't waste resources; ideally, you'll always have that one more encounter ender that you don't use until there's no other recourse. Ideally, whenever possible, you'll have your Buffed Bodyguard clean up without intervention.

Even something simple like Bearded Devil or Hound Archon makes for a fine warrior until you gain Planar Binding, especially if you use a Greater Magic Weapon and Cleric-based Magic Vestment and Greater Mighty Wallop and similar buffs for the creature, and with DRs, resistances and all that, can deal with most encounters without a serious risk or need for recovery.

taltamir
2009-12-30, 07:37 PM
Observe, for an example, the psion. The psion is often considered more balanced than the wizard. Is this because the psion has less daily powers? No; in fact, the psion has much more nova power than the wizard. The psion is more balanced because the psion is weaker. In AD&D terms, "weaker" meant [list of things jmbrown mentioned]. But as the more modern gamer isn't terribly fond of AD&D, "weaker" has to take on other meanings.

If you try to balance casters by finagling with time, it's not necessarily a universal inhibitor. Not every scenario will realistically call for an endurance run. On the other hand, if you generally nerf casters (through AD&D regression, or simple weakening of possible effects), they will universally be inhibited.

you don't need to TRY, it happens, it is a fact.
the question is not whether you try to balance them. The question is how you handle time as a DM, and based on how you do so their relative power manifests. Look at the above example

I edited it in after you posted into another post, but that was a mistake, I am bringing it to this post:

How about a challange... defeat a tribe of 500 goblins in a row. you can't leave their caverns because if you do, they will follow to the open where you get peppered by 500 arrows per round. so you need to use choke points, etc...

it is 6pm, they have captured the daughter of one of the PCs, and at exactly midnight they will sacrifice her to their evil god, summoning a demon (balor) to ravish the countryside.

taltamir
2009-12-30, 07:39 PM
Casters can make very one-sided deals to get Outsider servants, which last a day per caster level. Having a few fiends at your beck and call means the caster can stay back and watch them shank his enemies for him, expending no spell slots in the process. Summoning also gives you critters with SLAs, maximizing the bang for your buck, and Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer wands mean you can have 150 spell levels in your pocket in case you run out.
By increasing the length of adventuring days, you also make Theurges incredibly powerful. All those slots actually become useful. A Jade Phoenix Mage or Eldritch Theurge especially, but your plain old Mystic Theurge is going to get a chance to shine.

eh, that falls into "incredibly broken spells"...
casters can also chain gate solars, literally ascent to godhood, and get arbitrarily high bonuses to all attributes (pun pun, epic casting, and more)...

none of those is normally allowed by DMs...

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-30, 07:42 PM
Yes, this sort of thing happens. It happens quite often, and is part of why casual games don't have many caster problems. But it can't happen all the time, and depending on what sort of characters your players have cast, it might not happen as often as it needs to for balance to occur.

On days when there are more encounters, casters are weaker. This is obvious. However, those days may not occur often enough that casters can be called "balanced" in general by their presence.

jmbrown
2009-12-30, 07:43 PM
you don't need to TRY, it happens, it is a fact.
the question is not whether you try to balance them. The question is how you handle time as a DM, and based on how you do so their relative power manifests. Look at the above example

I edited it in after you posted into another post, but that was a mistake, I am bringing it to this post:

How about a challange... defeat a tribe of 500 goblins in a row. you can't leave their caverns because if you do, they will follow to the open where you get peppered by 500 arrows per round. so you need to use choke points, etc...

it is 6pm, they have captured the daughter of one of the PCs, and at exactly midnight they will sacrifice her to their evil god, summoning a demon (balor) to ravish the countryside.

Run to the entrance and cast wall of force or protection from arrows or wind wall. Yes, it's that's easy.

The second situation is an example of time restricted actions but, at the point where balors can be summoned, a wizard could easily scry on the location, teleport in, touch the girl, and teleport out. Then the DM would have to block the location from scrying to put a dimensional anchor spell over the area...

There's a million different scenarios and a million different combination of simple spells to overcome any situation. The DM simply can't factor in every situation all the time. A wizard can ultimately ignore even the tightest controlled time based scenarios simply by being a wizard.

olentu
2009-12-30, 07:45 PM
Note though, you must make battles hard enough that the casters need to expend resources. Otherwise, I see no reason to cast a spell against a bunch of mooks my buffed warrior (be it Planar Bound Creature, Druid, Cleric, Barbarian or Fighter) can solo with little damage that can just be Wanded away anyways. If I've got a Wand or a Reserve Feat or some decent weapon with abilities to use it, I'll be taking potshots, but otherwise I'll most likely just steer clear while shooting my (Cross)bow.

And if you keep pushing with encounters of that difficulty until the party is out of resources, how do you expect them to survive the encounters when out of resources? If the battles are all so tough that casters need to burn resources, and then they run into a battle of that difficulty without resources, how are the non-casters supposed to make up for lacking Glitterdust, Web and company for support?

Ah this is quite a better presentation of my point.

Flickerdart
2009-12-30, 07:45 PM
eh, that falls into "incredibly broken spells"...
casters can also chain gate solars, literally ascent to godhood, and get arbitrarily high bonuses to all attributes (pun pun, epic casting, and more)...

none of those is normally allowed by DMs...
I am simply showing you that your proposition does not actually hurt casters as much as you would believe. Your repeated use of the "yeah but nobody actually does this" fallacy does not bar the fact that this is an option. Mnemonic Enhancer is never banned, because it's honestly not a very good spell. In this case, however, it becomes a lot more powerful, and same goes for the Theurges. If your solution requires ridiculous amounts of additional bans, over what would normally be considered broken, then I dare suggest that it is a horrible idea that fixes nothing at all.

taltamir
2009-12-30, 07:46 PM
Yes, this sort of thing happens. It happens quite often, and is part of why casual games don't have many caster problems. But it can't happen all the time, and depending on what sort of characters your players have cast, it might not happen as often as it needs to for balance to occur.

Yes, a smart wizard who is not of good alignment and has no family (or doesn't care about family) COULD just say "screw it"... do his thing for 15 minutes a day... if someone complains, they can go out the rope trick alone... or be replaced with a construct he makes...

if the innocent daughter TM dies, well better her then him.

But generally speaking, people play as a team, and the wizard will follow the rest of the party and push on despite being out of spells for the day.

the thing is... I am not saying that this is a perfect mechanic to balance casters and non casters... I am saying that this is the intended mechanic, it is how the game happened... it is why WOTC made such colossal mistakes. it is a fundamental feature of 3e.

taltamir
2009-12-30, 07:49 PM
I am simply showing you that your proposition does not actually hurt casters as much as you would believe. Your repeated use of the "yeah but nobody actually does this" fallacy does not bar the fact that this is an option. Mnemonic Enhancer is never banned, because it's honestly not a very good spell. In this case, however, it becomes a lot more powerful, and same goes for the Theurges. If your solution requires ridiculous amounts of additional bans, over what would normally be considered broken, then I dare suggest that it is a horrible idea that fixes nothing at all.

there is nothing ridiculous about it. and I am entirely correct in saying nobody does that; Unless you are intentionally playing a tippyverse game.

the ability to play pun pun and chaingate solars (or just gate one solar and have him be your bitch automatically for days at a time) makes casters massively overpowered, yes... to the point that nothing else I mentioned matters...
heck, why would you even adventure? stay in your castle and bind outsiders to be your liasons in the outside world. if anyone attacks you, escape with teleport and send outsiders to kill them and reclaim your stuff.

what you have shown has absolutely no bearing on the discussion... it isn't something that affects the relative power of player characters in a game. because they play, together.

Jack_Simth
2009-12-30, 07:52 PM
Remember, noncasters have finite resources too. Most obviously, hit points.

A Barbarian on his 23rd non-trivial combat encounter of the day is not going to be much happier than the Sorcerer, I'd think. =/


I'm pretty sure the difference would be smaller in a game where the characters were somehow forced to fight an obscene number of fights than in one where there is only one encounter/day. It is still not going to fix the imbalance.
Heh. Yeah. In order to make endurance runs favor noncasters heavily, healing needs to be very, very easy - fast healing in the party, every mook and his pet rabbit is carrying a potion or two of Cure Serious Wounds, that kind of thing.


A point of consideration is perhaps that for this to be viable the encounters should probably be reasonably deflatable without the use of spells as if they are not then everyone dies when the spells run out since the spells are necessary.
Yep. You also have to avoid anything that requires a "day after" spell - ability damage, ability drain, negative levels, level drains, curses, poison, disease (although with disease, it matters less, as the incubation period means that it's unlikely to matter for a few days, at least), and so on - unless you also provide the matching "day after" potion/elixer/scroll, in sufficient quantity.

AKA, you either have to look very, very carefully at your critter abilities, or you have to give the party a "cleric" that's independant of the per-day mechanic (replace the stuff a cleric would provide by way of items/encounter-once NPC's, and the like, to deal with all of the stuff that the party can't fix without burning per-day resources).

Even with that, though, there's those pesky Reserve Feats in Complete Mage, Complete Champion, and possibly a few other places - the Cleric-10 running around with Magic Vestments on heavy shield and full plate, Greater Magic Weapon on his heavy mace, who spent much of his wealth on constitution+ and strength+ items, then picked up Touch of Healing, Fiery Burst, and Summon Elemental? He can go ten hours against mooks, easy (more, if he's got the Magic Item Compendium Vampiric property on his weapon - free healing... if you're not a nice person).

Eldariel
2009-12-30, 07:53 PM
Planar Binding isn't, to my knowledge, nearly as commonly banned as it should be and indeed, it's one of the easier "all-day" tools Wizards have at their disposal. As long as the players don't try to abuse Wishes granted by bound creatures (btw, before I was online, this actually happened in one of our games; the Wizard bound a ****ing Glabrezu on 13 or so, and forced it to grant the Wish...through some manner of Domination at a point in its service, I recall; of course, he only used it to get +1 Inherent Int to reach the next even number a bit early so it was nothing alarming, but it alerted me to what said spells are capable of), Planar Binding-line isn't "obviously" overpowered; just "yet another thing Wizards should be able to do".

But yeah, lots of games don't ban said spells to my knowledge. Just limit the amount of control over the Bound creature. In such games, using those in endurance rallies is really no issue whatsoever.

Flickerdart
2009-12-30, 07:53 PM
there is nothing ridiculous about it. and I am entirely correct in saying nobody does that; Unless you are intentionally playing a tippyverse game.

the ability to play pun pun and chaingate solars (or just gate one solar and have him be your bitch automatically for days at a time) makes casters massively overpowered, yes... to the point that nothing else I mentioned matters...
heck, why would you even adventure? stay in your castle and bind outsiders to be your liasons in the outside world. if anyone attacks you, escape with teleport and send outsiders to kill them and reclaim your stuff.
Now, my dear sir and/or madam, you are putting words into my mouth. I have never once mentioned any of those things. Only you have.
I suggested using Theurges and Rary's Mnenomic Enhancer. I have suggested using Summon Monster spells for creatures with SLAs. I have suggested the use of Planar Binding or Lesser Geas that the Wizard uses to acquire servants that fight for him. I've never seen ANY of those things banned, and if you have, then your DM is probably better off using a different system. Immediately erupting into "omg chain solars and punpun" makes it appear that you have never, in fact, seen anybody play a Wizard.

Additionally, you would do well to remember that Pun-Pun is a Paladin, not a Wizard.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-30, 07:57 PM
that is a serious issue I overlooked...
but unless you abuse nightsticks, you are limited to only a few of those per day... so divine power and a few more.
1. Overall, after your spells run out, you are still weaker than a dedicated combat class, like a barb.
2. in 30+ encounter not a single enemy hit you with dispel magic?

I will, if you like, post a character I actually play in a RL game. Incantatrix, with the ability to abuse persist horrifically. Also, a reserve feat for endurance, a couple pieces of the rainment of four for flexibility, a nice stockpile of emergency scrolls and wands(I believe approx 30 scrolls and 5 wands atm).

As for dispelling, I carry a wand of Wings of Cover in my offhand, always prepare at least one dispel magic(and have a wand of that too in my haversack), and have a tendancy to delay actions. Counterspell battles mean my team wins.

# of encounters per day won't mean terribly much to this character, and this is at a whopping level 9. The party druid, likewise, wont care much. He lives wildshaped, and only touches spells on occasion. He frankly doesn't need them. The party cleric is incompetent, being unarmored and focused around touch attacks. He'll be worthless regardless. The blackguard will run dry on self-healing before we even hit the encounter limit, and the rogues tend to have heavy potion usage as it is.

Adjusting time between battles and # of battles will not be more than a minor factor in the power of us full casters...but it may annoy the melee when their buffs run out.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-30, 07:57 PM
the thing is... I am not saying that this is a perfect mechanic to balance casters and non casters... I am saying that this is the intended mechanic, it is how the game happened... it is why WOTC made such colossal mistakes. it is a fundamental feature of 3e.

Oh, that's much clearer. Yeah, I'd say that. WotC intended for players to be heroes, for the wizards to have strong heavy shots, and for DMs to compensate by putting time pressure on mages. And, obviously, there are flaws.

I'm not sure I'd call out WotC for making "colossal mistakes". Companies like WotC, Microsoft, etc. get much more flak than they deserve, simply because of the established memes that promote hating them.


there is nothing ridiculous about it. and I am entirely correct in saying nobody does that; Unless you are intentionally playing a tippyverse game.

He's citing mystic theurges and Mnemonic Enhancer (well, with the second half of his argument, at least; which is the better part). Not exactly the epitome of Tippyverse.

taltamir
2009-12-30, 08:01 PM
Now, my dear sir and/or madam, you are putting words into my mouth. I have never once mentioned any of those things. Only you have.
I suggested using Theurges and Rary's Mnenomic Enhancer. I have suggested using Summon Monster spells for creatures with SLAs. I have suggested the use of Planar Binding or Lesser Geas that the Wizard uses to acquire servants that fight for him. I've never seen ANY of those things banned, and if you have, then your DM is probably better off using a different system. Immediately erupting into "omg chain solars and punpun" makes it appear that you have never, in fact, seen anybody play a Wizard.

Additionally, you would do well to remember that Pun-Pun is a Paladin, not a Wizard.

the blue arrow pointing up and the right next to my name should indicate that I am a sir. :)
I did not immediately erupt into chain gating solars, you did however sugged planer binding to get daily monsters... you don't need to chain gate solars to abuse this. You can gate 1 solar per day yourself... and look, he casts as a cleric 20... just send him to battle and stay in your tower... that is not "playing" and is simply a non issue.

now, mnemonic enhancer sucks, it is a waste of a spell in every conceivable way.

theurges though, are useful in terms of endurance... but sacrifice a lot of overall power to do so. yes, they will go further in terms of endurance... and might actually break the mold and be more useful than both melee characters and straight casters when forced into an endurance run... interesting catch.

Summon monster - you summon a monster, it fights for you until the spell ends... so?

Lesser Geas -now that is an interesting technique, but the XP cost makes it undesireable as a tactic.

I should have been a lot more clear in that my "why not chain gate solars" was a response to "just cast planer binding / gate yourself to get 1 solar to do your work". and not a response to the other things you mentioned...

Eldariel
2009-12-30, 08:04 PM
Gate =/= Planar Binding. Gate refers to Gate. Planar Binding has hard HD caps, among other things preventing Binding Solars.

Zaydos
2009-12-30, 08:04 PM
you don't need to TRY, it happens, it is a fact.
the question is not whether you try to balance them. The question is how you handle time as a DM, and based on how you do so their relative power manifests. Look at the above example

I edited it in after you posted into another post, but that was a mistake, I am bringing it to this post:

How about a challange... defeat a tribe of 500 goblins in a row. you can't leave their caverns because if you do, they will follow to the open where you get peppered by 500 arrows per round. so you need to use choke points, etc...

it is 6pm, they have captured the daughter of one of the PCs, and at exactly midnight they will sacrifice her to their evil god, summoning a demon (balor) to ravish the countryside.

How deep is the cavern? Draconic Polymorph (shared with familiar) + Fly and enter as a cave troll. For 10 minutes my AC is over 30 so low level goblins won't do anything and even mid-level ones won't and I have pounce, me and my familiar moving together (to stay within 5-ft) and sweeping through goblins as quickly as possible. I actually had to explain how my character could defeat an army of 200 hobgoblins without resting and found it really easy except that the hobgoblins would run away. A simple ambush and Evard's Black Tentacles will kill 30 hobgoblins (fireball does just as well). Polymorph into something halfway decent at melee and go to town. If the tunnel is deep enough my character would have trouble with it using his normal spells prepared, but if he was a transmuter instead of a conjurer he'd have 3 more polymorph spells prepared each day and he'd be just fine. Only problem is a place where the goblins could all be shooting at him at once (25 hits/round on average assuming they only hit on a 20, for 72.5 damage/round) and this kills a fighter in 2 rounds too. Heck, Protection from Arrows (he doesn't have it) and he's fine there too.

Short of polymorph I could just go with Summon Monster spells instead of evard's black tentacles, summon an earth elemental and have it go. If I had Fiery Burst it would be even easier, I could do it with just my 10 minute/level buffs up.

I think more encounters helps, and when I have caster problems that's my answer (actually mine was single strong boss since they were all using AoEs), but it is still surmountable by casting.

taltamir
2009-12-30, 08:07 PM
Gate =/= Planar Binding. Gate refers to Gate. Planar Binding has hard HD caps, among other things preventing Binding Solars.

eh, not a solar, but certainly something "appropriate"

robotrobot2
2009-12-30, 08:08 PM
The problem with any time-sensitive objective is that if the wizard is sufficiently high enough level, he can always find a way around it. The unbalancing problem is inherent in the system. A wizard is a wizard because he casts spells. He can select from all of the various splatbooks with a little work. The chance of the right spell for any situation being in some book is very, very, likely. A melee class can use all those splatbooks too, but the best he can learn is to swing his sword in new and interesting ways. Basically, magic can do anything, while a mundane class simply cannot.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-30, 08:11 PM
now, mnemonic enhancer sucks, it is a waste of a spell in every conceivable way.

A single wand of it grants you 50 backup third level spells of your choice at will. Or more lower ones, if needed. Combined with specific wands and the odd scroll, this allows you to easily handle shortages in spell volume.

The amount of XP and loot you get as a result of burning an additional 150 spell levels is more than adequate to replace the wand and much more.


Lesser Geas -now that is an interesting technique, but the XP cost makes it undesireable as a tactic.

Eh, xp cost is undesirable, but if you're talking about fighting an army/fighting encounters all day long, the amount of incoming xp makes such a tactic totally worth it.

Flickerdart
2009-12-30, 08:13 PM
the blue arrow pointing up and the right next to my name should indicate that I am a sir. :)
I did not immediately erupt into chain gating solars, you did however sugged planer binding to get daily monsters... you don't need to chain gate solars to abuse this. You can gate 1 solar per day yourself... and look, he casts as a cleric 20... just send him to battle and stay in your tower... that is not "playing" and is simply a non issue.

now, mnemonic enhancer sucks, it is a waste of a spell in every conceivable way.

theurges though, are useful in terms of endurance... but sacrifice a lot of overall power to do so. yes, they will go further in terms of endurance... and might actually break the mold and be more useful than both melee characters and straight casters when forced into an endurance run... interesting catch.

Summon monster - you summon a monster, it fights for you until the spell ends... so?

Lesser Geas -now that is an interesting technique, but the XP cost makes it undesireable as a tactic.
Again, I never mentioned Gate once. I'm talking mostly about the low level of play, where Planar Binding gets you a nice mid-range demon to do the meat shield work for you. This lets the Fighter kill things and not have to guard you, so everyone wins, but it also means your endurance goes up.

Mnemonic Enhancer, wanded, gives you a potential 50 3rd level slots per day, which adds tremendously to endurance. You would not do this every day, of course. But when you need to, you have the option, which is why casters are powerful to begin with, they have options.

Summons are not always used to fight. Summon Nature's Ally can be used, for example, to summon a Unicorn, which is a much better deal than simply using Cure Serious Wounds. A caster uses one spell to summon creatures with SLAs, then the creature uses all of them. The return is better than the result of a single spell slot, where endurance is concerned.

So, aside from the Theurge part, casters don't actually need to do all that much to adapt to your endurance bout. Take a single reserve feat if you want, craft a Wand of Mnemonic Enhancer, read up on your summons and go to town. Geas and Lesser Geas don't use any XP, so I have no idea what you're talking about there. As you can see, it's no problem for a caster that suddenly he needs to spread his spells over 8 encounters instead of 4, or 12, or 16. However, the Fighters and the Rogues are getting hit in the face more often, and have less and less HP left. Can they adapt to this? No, they cannot. Casters win again, without much effort.

taltamir
2009-12-30, 08:19 PM
So, aside from the Theurge part, casters don't actually need to do all that much to adapt to your endurance bout. Take a single reserve feat if you want, craft a Wand of Mnemonic Enhancer, read up on your summons and go to town. Geas and Lesser Geas don't use any XP, so I have no idea what you're talking about there. As you can see, it's no problem for a caster that suddenly he needs to spread his spells over 8 encounters instead of 4, or 12, or 16. However, the Fighters and the Rogues are getting hit in the face more often, and have less and less HP left. Can they adapt to this? No, they cannot. Casters win again, without much effort.

I will concede that due to some tricks casters can convert XP to endurance (and have it pay back with dividends).

but the non casters have more HP, not less HP, and get hit in the face less, not more. when you are out of spells.

Granted, as long as you have the right set of items, you could just burn XP and gp all day long and retain casting for the entire 30 encounters... in which case you are likely to get hit in the face less due to magical protections.

I am well aware that casters have options, crazy options... and that their greatest power and why they dominate the higher tiers is the wealth of options and not straight 1 on 1 or 1 on many combat prowess.
I have already stated that the point I am making is that time management was the "intended" method of balancing casters... that it didn't work out due to a variety of broken abilities in splat books is a different issue...

And btw... the most effective endurance test character is someone with touch of healing, since he can literally cure infinite HP per day.

ex cathedra
2009-12-30, 08:29 PM
RME sucks? Spock disagrees.

Additionally, in my experience, casters have more HP than most classes by virtue of SAD. Few other class archetypes can afford to pump their constitution to 30 or so as easily as single-stat casters.

This wouldn't make casters less powerful, to be honest. It would make certain casters builds less feasible, but it's entirely possible to build an endurance wizard.

Edit:
Also, wrong. The most effective endurance character wouldn't need healing, tbh.

Flickerdart
2009-12-30, 08:29 PM
I will concede that due to some tricks casters can convert XP to endurance (and have it pay back with dividends).

but the non casters have more HP, not less HP, and get hit in the face less, not more. when you are out of spells.

Granted, as long as you have the right set of items, you could just burn XP and gp all day long and retain casting for the entire 30 encounters... in which case you are likely to get hit in the face less due to magical protections.

I am well aware that casters have options, crazy options... and that their greatest power and why they dominate the higher tiers is the wealth of options and not straight 1 on 1 or 1 on many combat prowess.
I have already stated that the point I am making is that time management was the "intended" method of balancing casters... that it didn't work out due to a variety of broken abilities in splat books is a different issue...

And btw... the most effective endurance test character is someone with touch of healing, since he can literally cure infinite HP per day.
Sigh...reserve feats cost no XP. Summons cost no XP. The only thing that costs XP and gold is the Enhancer wand. Meanwhile, the meatshields need potions and wands to get cured, so they're using up their HP and gold. They get hit in the face more because a Wizard is not standing on the front lines, but hiding behind either them or his minions that he bound into his service with nothing but a spell he cast days or weeks ago. And also flying, because Overland Flight lasts hours per level. None of this is very difficult to do. Your suggestion challenges casters not at all, except possibly their slots getting drained because melee needs more and more healing, which is not a fault of the casters at all.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-30, 08:37 PM
I will concede that due to some tricks casters can convert XP to endurance (and have it pay back with dividends).

Or gold. XP is merely a way to reduce the gold...it's much more convenient for casters than for melee.

Likewise, due to spell lists, UMD/potions are costly options that are not as necessary for casters. Buying endurance is cheapest for them.


but the non casters have more HP, not less HP, and get hit in the face less, not more. when you are out of spells.

Running out of spells basically can't happen to the prepared caster. At worst, he must retreat and abandon the mission.

Initial starting hp is mostly irrelevant. What matters is how expensive it is to replenish your resources. I see no reason why hp restoration would be more expensive for casters than melee.

If anything, the increased availability of buffs and mobility would lead to a lower damage rate.


Granted, as long as you have the right set of items, you could just burn XP and gp all day long and retain casting for the entire 30 encounters... in which case you are likely to get hit in the face less due to magical protections.

Mostly just gp. Xp expenditure for scrolls and wands is trivial. I've never seen casters that didn't pack a few scrolls and wands for emergencies.


And btw... the most effective endurance test character is someone with touch of healing, since he can literally cure infinite HP per day.

Im not 100% sure on that...It's nice, no question, but you never actually need infinite hp curing. At very low levels, DR or infinite healing tricks are optimal, yes. These fade in effectiveness at higher levels, where making things die quickly is vastly more important.

taltamir
2009-12-30, 08:38 PM
Sigh...reserve feats cost no XP.
Many of which are not useful; I pointed out that some of them like touch of healing are worth it and are unbelievably good when optimizing for endurance... what more do you want? I conceded the point but did not specify every exact single combination of abilities. it will take forever to list them all so I am not gonna.
I suggest you actually read back and see what my actual point was. I think you seem to misunderstand my stance on the whole issue.


Summons cost no XP.
Your point? I never said they do.


Meanwhile, the meatshields need potions and wands to get cured, so they're using up their HP and gold.
The cleric cant cure the meatshield? If your cleric isn't curing the meatshield and the wizard isn't buffing him, what incentive does he have to be a meatshield?


They get hit in the face more because a Wizard is not standing on the front lines, but hiding behind either them or his minions that he bound into his service with nothing but a spell he cast days or weeks ago.
planer binding, gate, or geas are the only way i know to do that... and all of them carry VERY real risks...

ex cathedra
2009-12-30, 08:42 PM
The meatshield shouldn't have to rely on two other classes just to function.

Fiery Burst is fairly decent, as it effectively makes your wizard a (better) warlock, as far as reserve feats go.

Flickerdart
2009-12-30, 08:43 PM
Many of which are not useful; I pointed out that some of them like touch of healing are worth it and are unbelievably good when optimizing for endurance... what more do you want? I conceded the point but did not specify every exact single combination of abilities. it will take forever to list them all so I am not gonna.
I suggest you actually read back and see what my actual point was. I think you seem to misunderstand my stance on the whole issue.


Your point? I never said they do.


The cleric cant cure the meatshield? If your cleric isn't curing the meatshield and the wizard isn't buffing him, what incentive does he have to be a meatshield?


planer binding, gate, or geas are the only way i know to do that... and all of them carry VERY real risks...
So what you're saying is that the reason that your suggestion makes Wizards and Clerics weaker is that it makes them have to heal and buff the Fighter more often? That's a) incorrect, as the buffs on the Fighter are going to last all day or close to it anyway, regardless of how many encounters are in it, and b) not actually fixing anything in the caster/fighter power dynamic, which is the point of this to begin with. Yes, the methods of getting servants are risky, but in an endurance match, they work for a long time. You know what else is risky? Adventuring. If you won't take risks, why bother adventuring in the first place, eh? :smallsigh:

taltamir
2009-12-30, 08:44 PM
Or gold. XP is merely a way to reduce the gold...it's much more convenient for casters than for melee.
point.
Although, for that matter so could your tanks... so the melee guy buys a wand of "buff X" and has the wizard use it on him every encounter.


Running out of spells basically can't happen to the prepared caster. At worst, he must retreat and abandon the mission.
and his daughter dies and is sacrificed to the dark gods... not a happy ending there.
failing the mission is a very bad thing. especially if that is the method WOTC intended to be a balance between all day and at will abilities...


Initial starting hp is mostly irrelevant. What matters is how expensive it is to replenish your resources. I see no reason why hp restoration would be more expensive for casters than melee.
replenishing it costs the same per HP regained, but melee characters lose less of it if you run out of magic.


Im not 100% sure on that...It's nice, no question, but you never actually need infinite hp curing. At very low levels, DR or infinite healing tricks are optimal, yes. These fade in effectiveness at higher levels, where making things die quickly is vastly more important.
yea, at very high levels the world breaks apart... especially if you allow high level spells which break the world apart. out of combat.

taltamir
2009-12-30, 08:48 PM
So what you're saying is that the reason that your suggestion makes Wizards and Clerics weaker is that it makes them have to heal and buff the Fighter more often? That's a) incorrect, as the buffs on the Fighter are going to last all day or close to it anyway, regardless of how many encounters are in it, and b) not actually fixing anything in the caster/fighter power dynamic, which is the point of this to begin with. Yes, the methods of getting servants are risky, but in an endurance match, they work for a long time. You know what else is risky? Adventuring. If you won't take risks, why bother adventuring in the first place, eh? :smallsigh:


Originally Posted by taltamir
the thing is... I am not saying that this is a perfect mechanic to balance casters and non casters... I am saying that this is the intended mechanic, it is how the game happened... it is why WOTC made such colossal mistakes. it is a fundamental feature of 3e.
This is the "intended method of balance" by WOTC. That it doesn't work due to a variety of broken spells (mostly from splat books; but also a few from core) is an issue of broken spells.


The cleric cant cure the meatshield? If your cleric isn't curing the meatshield and the wizard isn't buffing him, what incentive does he have to be a meatshield?
it is a trade really. if the wizard and clerics aren't buffing the fighter, then why should he be a meatshield? why shouldn't he let them take care of themselves? abandon them? concentrate only on saving his own ass and not on soaking damage? maneuver himself so that the wizard is now between him and the big bad monster trying to eat his face while he finishes off the small fry?

Flickerdart
2009-12-30, 08:48 PM
point.
Although, for that matter so could your tanks... so the melee guy buys a wand of "buff X" and has the wizard use it on him every encounter.
Wizard is wasting actions on the Fighter's behalf. This does not make the Fighter strong, it makes the Wizard strong.



and his daughter dies and is sacrificed to the dark gods... not a happy ending there.
failing the mission is a very bad thing. especially if that is the method WOTC intended to be a balance between all day and at will abilities...

And non-casters don't retreat when they're low on HP? It's not infinite, you know.



replenishing it costs the same per HP regained, but melee characters lose less of it if you run out of magic.
How do they lose less? You can't heal them, you can't buff them with short-term buffs. They take more punches to the face, they can't recover, they die.



yea, at very high levels the world breaks apart... especially if you allow high level spells which break the world apart. out of combat.
That doesn't make your suggestion any more practical.


This is the "intended method of balance" by WOTC. That it doesn't work due to a variety of broken spells (mostly from splat books; but also a few from core) is an issue of broken spells.


it is a trade really. if the wizard and clerics aren't buffing the fighter, then why should he be a meatshield? why shouldn't he let them take care of themselves? abandon them? concentrate only on saving his own ass and not on soaking damage? maneuver himself so that the wizard is now between him and the big bad monster trying to eat his face while he finishes off the small fry?
He can. That's what I'm saying. The Wizard has his captive demon to protect him, the Fighter can go and do his own thing. I've already mentioned this. Everybody wins. Except the Fighter can't buff himself, or heal himself, but the Wizard and Cleric can take care of the killing side of things just fine.

taltamir
2009-12-30, 08:51 PM
How do they lose less? You can't heal them, you can't buff them with short-term buffs. They take more punches to the face, they can't recover, they die.

1. they take less punches to the face because their AC is higher
2. since they are not making en effort to be a damage magnet, they are assumed to be attacked by equal amounts of monsters. They finish off theirs faster due to more attacks per round, more damage, and feats like cleave.

because, we are at the point where we are out of magic, so the wizard and cleric are now just sub par fighters, literally fighting with a sword.

of course, the sensible thing at that point is to run away and fail the mission. sometimes it isn't an option though.

taltamir
2009-12-30, 08:53 PM
He can. That's what I'm saying. The Wizard has his captive demon to protect him, the Fighter can go and do his own thing. I've already mentioned this. Everybody wins. Except the Fighter can't buff himself, or heal himself, but the Wizard and Cleric can take care of the killing side of things just fine.

if your wizard has a captive demon, the fighter took some UMD. problem solved.
the captive demon, btw, will eat the wizard if it makes any of its saves.

Flickerdart
2009-12-30, 08:53 PM
1. they take less punches to the face because their AC is higher
2. since they are not making en effort to be a damage magnet, they are assumed to be attacked by equal amounts of monsters. They finish off theirs faster due to more attacks per round, more damage, and feats like cleave.

because, we are at the point where we are out of magic, so the wizard and cleric are now just sub par fighters, literally fighting with a sword.

of course, the sensible thing at that point is to run away and fail the mission. sometimes it isn't an option though.
I don't understand. Why is the Fighter's AC higher without the Wizard buffing him? Why are we assuming that they're out of magic when I've proven time and time again that spell slots can go a very, very long way? Your assumptions are made with no regard for what would actually be going on.


if your wizard has a captive demon, the fighter took some UMD. problem solved.
the captive demon, btw, will eat the wizard if it makes any of its saves.
The Wizard spends a day (some time ago, days or weeks) and has a demon. The Fighter wastes all two of his skill ranks on UMD, and can never make a check because it's CC and he has no CHA. And the demon doesn't make its saves, because the Wizard debuffed its CHA before making the Planar Binding deal, standard practice with the spell. You are proving time and time again you don't actually know how a Wizard works in play.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-30, 08:57 PM
point.
Although, for that matter so could your tanks... so the melee guy buys a wand of "buff X" and has the wizard use it on him every encounter.

Well, that's requiring the melee guy to have a friendly wizard buff him. Not exactly a fair comparison.


and his daughter dies and is sacrificed to the dark gods... not a happy ending there.
failing the mission is a very bad thing. especially if that is the method WOTC intended to be a balance between all day and at will abilities...

Fighter: Runs out of hp. Dies. Mission failed. Requires gold and/or level loss to try again.
Wizard: Runs out of spells. Teleports out. Mission failed. Gained large amounts of xp and gold for next time.


replenishing it costs the same per HP regained, but melee characters lose less of it if you run out of magic.

What do you mean, run out of magic? Greater mage armor lasts all day. Overland flight effectively does too. If I opt to abuse persist, so do all my other buffs. Thanks to miss rates, distance and buffs, I am *far* less likely to be hit than melee characters. Also, my ability to simply fly by folks at ridiculous speeds gives me a *vastly* better chance of completing the mission.

My reserve feat will also not run out. Personally, I use the cut down version of lightening bolt, but fiery burst is popular too.


yea, at very high levels the world breaks apart... especially if you allow high level spells which break the world apart. out of combat.

I'm referring to levels 9+. At these, the casters clearly win, endurance fight or not. I referred to two groups of levels, "very low", and "higher" with regards to infinite healing. I don't really see how you got "very high levels at which the world breaks apart" out of that.

ex cathedra
2009-12-30, 08:57 PM
Wizards that want AC have better AC than fighters. Wizards that want miss chances, have them. Fighters that want AC can only pull from magic items. Fighters that want miss chances can only get them from magic items. Guess what? Wizards can spend gold, too. Expecting fighters to have more AC is very commonly wrong.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-30, 09:02 PM
if your wizard has a captive demon, the fighter took some UMD. problem solved.

Seriously? A class with two sp per level, and int not being a focus skill for it, is going to have any real proficiency with a cross class skill based on a dump stat?

Yeah, toss skill points in there, sacrificing skills like tumble. You don't *really* need them, do you? At level 9, this'll give you a +6. Minus whatever your charisma penalty is. So...probably around a +4.

You'll be failing UMD checks pretty constantly. This is a waste of both actions and money. Also, if you roll a 1 on the wand of CLW or w/e, you'll be pretty well screwed.


the captive demon, btw, will eat the wizard if it makes any of its saves.

Why would you give them the possibility? Between debuffs, save optimization, and just keeping a respectful distance from the dangerous things that want to eat you, it's not really a threat.

Alternatively, you could abuse polymorph, and outfight the fighters.

Zaydos
2009-12-30, 09:03 PM
If my current IRL party was to each attempt to solo a long chain of encounters. Either my mage or the druid would probably win. Focused Specialist and full casting levels plus being on an odd level gives me more spells per day than the sorceress who also has lower AC. My character buffs his AC, it lasts an hour and a half before anything in the Monster Manual with CR 4 except a swarm and a rhino can hit him on less than a 20 (some creatures hit on an 18 charging). He can polymorph for 10 minutes (and if he is prepping for endurance can give up Greater Mirror Image for a second use) and can end most encounters of that level with one spell each besides.

The druid has AC 8 worse but could prep healing spells. With her animal companion she doesn't need polymorph just wild shape. If given time between encounters she wins. If not, my character does.

The sorceress has an AC of 21 so 3 less than the druid with wild shape. She isn't hard to hit by a lot of creatures (+11) and so will be using a lot of Wings of Cover very quickly. She has 4 wings of flurry and after that can use 3rd level spells for 7d6 fire damage with breath weapon and has first level spells. Does better against a swarm subtype creature than either of the above (has actual AoEs) but will die presented with enough CR 1/2 hobgoblins.

The swordsage has an AC of 19~21 and can heal himself by reducing his offensive power (Shadowsun Ninja). Offensively weaker than the druid, but he could probably still keep his hp up. Might ultimately win endurance via infinite healing at this level.

The warlock/dread necromancer: Has a ~24 AC so hard to hit. His worg improved familiar will die a bloody death. But thanks to Tomb Tainted Soul and infinite healing he might survive. His 14 damage/hit EB won't help if he ends up against a good number of CR 4s at once though, and enough CR 1/2s will kill him before he can do anything.

As a party? Everyone's AC is higher with low being 24ish. The druid is definitely queen here with 28 AC and the shadowsun+dread necromancer infinite hp. Given a really short time limit, Draconic Polymorph blows everyone but the druid out of the water as for 100 rounds the wizard and his familiar are killing machines. The druid can match with Bite of the Weretiger shared with her companion but that's got a tenth the duration. The swordsage sits there while the druid mauls things and I can go blasty for 7 encounters easy and when masses of weak enemies appear if they're within 20-ft of each other it's one spell. Even when I'm out my AC makes me invincible to weaker creatures.

With the infinite heal loops the warlock and the swordsage can keep going forever against CR appropriate foes, along with the druid who still is queen the whole time, but after 90 minutes their AC is low enough for them to risk death against that CR even with infinite healing.

taltamir
2009-12-30, 09:04 PM
What do you mean, run out of magic? Greater mage armor lasts all day. Overland flight effectively does too. If I opt to abuse persist, so do all my other buffs. Thanks to miss rates, distance and buffs, I am *far* less likely to be hit than melee characters. Also, my ability to simply fly by folks at ridiculous speeds gives me a *vastly* better chance of completing the mission.

My reserve feat will also not run out. Personally, I use the cut down version of lightening bolt, but fiery burst is popular too.

Point. at those levels, yes they do. although, at this kind of levels you should expect enemies to dispel you.

Yea, this attempt at balance doesn't actually work. but that is is the intended method of balance. Mages just have too many options at their disposal so that even said attempt at balance fails. And the designers don't seem to keep in mind the whole "limited to X per day" vs at will when they design new spells.


Seriously? A class with two sp per level, and int not being a focus skill for it, is going to have any real proficiency with a cross class skill based on a dump stat?

I was using fighter as in "guy who isn't a full caster"... take some rogue levels. UMD + skillpoints galore.

actually, while we are at it... be a rogue with hide, move silently, tumble, umd, and specialize in archery...

As for flight... non magical flight, or get a graft for 10k gp for non magic flight... more safe then a dispellable overland flight... by the time you are high enough level to have "all day flight" enemies should be hitting you with dispel.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-30, 09:14 PM
Point. at those levels, yes they do. although, at this kind of levels you should expect enemies to dispel you.

Well, mooks pose little dispel threat. Plus, incantatrix provides a bonus to abj vs dispel. I don't have any CL boosters on my RL char, but others make use of them. So, in the event I don't happen to have a readied action to counterspell, I use my wings of cover wand vs the first attempt per round. There is literally no chance I'll fail the spellcraft check, so I'll know whats coming at me.

Should you target me with several dispels per round, they'll get through. It'll likely fail to hit anything significant. Losing flight is annoying, but since it fails in a safe manner, isn't actually dangerous.

This is still only level 9. Mooks Im facing at that level won't have a ridiculous number of dispel magics prepared unless the DM is specifically gunning for me.

I also typically run around with greater invis up, so that also tends to screw over most mooks.


Yea, this attempt at balance doesn't actually work. but that is is the intended method of balance. Mages just have too many options at their disposal so that even said attempt at balance fails. And the designers don't seem to keep in mind the whole "limited to X per day" vs at will when they design new spells.

Intended, sure. I think it's an interesting idea...but a hard one to implement in practice. Too many real world issues to having endurance fights for them to be popular.

Flickerdart
2009-12-30, 09:15 PM
Let us do some mathematics, shall we?

Let us pretend this is 9th level, and the Wizard in question has 18 + 2 Gray Elf + 2 level bonus + 4 Circlet = 26 INT. The Wizard and the Cleric want a pet. So they cast their Dimensional Anchor, Magic Circle Against Evil and Lesser Planar Binding, and summon a Succubus to do their bidding. The Succubus gets a Will save - 10+5+8+1 (spell focus) = DC 24, for which it will fail 85% of the time, and that's not even optimizing it. Lesser Geas is cast on it, and it's ordered to fetch its owner a bucket of water from the well over there, but it cannot because it's trapped. So it eventually takes a -8 to all scores. Bestow Curse lowers that by another 6, so now the Succubus has -14 to CHA, leaving it with 12. You stack more CHA penalties until the creature's CHA is 1. The Wizard uses Eagle's Splendor, a Circlet of Persuasion and other tricks to get his CHA up, and then offers the Succubus a deal: serve me for the duration of the spell and I will not kill you. The Succubus gets a +6 on its check, but with a -5 from its CHA, and the Wizard's bonuses (and no penalty if the Wizard fails) the Succubus now serves the Wizard for 9 days, or more if he has an Ioun stone or a strand of Prayer Beads. He doesn't even have a limit on how many he can have bound in his service at once. The Succubus can Charm Monster at will, which gets you more minions and uses up no spells. Aside from that one save that it fails 85% of the time, it's got no chance to escape with the precautions taken.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-30, 09:17 PM
I was using fighter as in "guy who isn't a full caster"... take some rogue levels. UMD + skillpoints galore.

actually, while we are at it... be a rogue with hide, move silently, tumble, umd, and specialize in archery...

This is a fun stealth build. It's not an ideal endurance build. Rogues are aright in combat, but they lack hp, full bab, any form of healing. Sniping is nice, but casters can snipe too...


As for flight... non magical flight, or get a graft for 10k gp for non magic flight... more safe then a dispellable overland flight... by the time you are high enough level to have "all day flight" enemies should be hitting you with dispel.

Nah. Getting dispelled is annoying. Not actually dangerous. The flight spells fail in a safe manner. Basically, you nuke everything while floating downward, pop out a scroll, and continue onward.

aje8
2009-12-30, 09:25 PM
Look, the central problem with this technique is the hp thing.

There are two possibilities:

1. The Fighter is not running out of hp in these 30 Encounters. Wizard: K, my Fighter can solo these. I'll cast no spells this encounter.

2. The Enemies are credible threats to the fighter who is running out of hp. In this case, yes the Wizard runs out of spells but he runs out of them much slower than the Fighter. It only takes the Wizard 2-3 spells to win most encounters. Given his spell pool, he's not running out before the Fighter. If we're talking lower levels (Pre Level 7) then perhaps the Wizard is running out of spells, but at those levels he needs less spells to end ecnoutners AND the balance difference between the Figther and Wizard is much less so this change is not really needed.

In conclusion, this fix doesn't work IMO.

taltamir
2009-12-30, 09:37 PM
In conclusion, this fix doesn't work IMO.

correct that it doesn't work...
however that wasn't me suggesting a "fix", it was me pointing out what I think the "intended balance" was and asking for input on how well it actually works.

It was shown in many ways how it will not make a difference. Wizards will have to change their tactics, but they still win DnD.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-30, 09:40 PM
It's not even a big change. For me, it's possible using minor variations on tactics I use routinely, and require no changes in my current character build. I don't even need to buy new items before embarking on such a quest.

Alls I need to do is increase consumable use as needed until the endurance event ends.

aje8
2009-12-30, 09:43 PM
correct that it doesn't work...
however that wasn't me suggesting a "fix", it was me pointing out what I think the "intended balance" was and asking for input on how well it actually works.

It was shown in many ways how it will not make a difference. Wizards will have to change their tactics, but they still win DnD.
But it's also not the intended balance. You act like the intended balance is some unknowable quality..... thing is we KNOW how WotC balanced DnD 3.5. As has been reported from several sources, DnD was playtested with the following party:
Sword & Board Fighter, Healbot Cleric, Blaster Wizard, Rogue
THAT party was balanced, or at least WotC's playtesting showed that it was. They didn't diversify their tactics very much.

WotC, as far as I know, tested that party for 4 encounters per day. Said playtesting is also what CRs are based on. (hence the CR issues)

taltamir
2009-12-30, 09:58 PM
But it's also not the intended balance. You act like the intended balance is some unknowable quality..... thing is we KNOW how WotC balanced DnD 3.5. As has been reported from several sources, DnD was playtested with the following party:
Sword & Board Fighter, Healbot Cleric, Blaster Wizard, Rogue
THAT party was balanced, or at least WotC's playtesting showed that it was. They didn't diversify their tactics very much.

that party was balanced within the time constraints given by their adventures. had the time constraints been different, then the balance would have shifted.
It is a significant aspect of balance that WOTC assumes in 3e to be identical for all games and all players. an assumption they have since disavowed in 4e, as that one gives identical amount of at will, encounter, and daily powers to each class. showing that they have realized that not everyone plays with the same time constraints as their playtesters.

aje8
2009-12-30, 10:04 PM
that party was balanced within the time constraints given by their adventures. had the time constraints been different, then the balance would have shifted.
It is a significant aspect of balance that WOTC assumes in 3e to be identical for all games and all players. an assumption they have since disavowed in 4e, as that one gives identical amount of at will, encounter, and daily powers to each class. showing that they have realized that not everyone plays with the same time constraints as their playtesters.
I'm confused..... your arguing that a source of the imbalance is that WotC tested with 4 Ecnounters per day while other would play with more or less? Or am I confused about your argument? I'm not sure what 4E has to do with anything.

But..... that wasn't a source of imbalance as the class balance doesn't change all that significantly when encounter numers change, as has been demonstrated.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-30, 10:12 PM
We spent three pages of argument just so taltamir could state his opinion that WotC didn't account for changing numbers of encounters?

Damn the internet. So inefficient. :smallsigh:

Tyndmyr
2009-12-30, 10:21 PM
Imagine if they had tested for more than four. They would have come to the conclusion that the poor, poor blasting wizards were incapable and needed buffs.

Optimystik
2009-12-30, 10:24 PM
Imagine if they had tested for more than four. They would have come to the conclusion that the poor, poor blasting wizards were incapable and needed buffs.

They did - hence, reserve feats were printed.

erikun
2009-12-30, 10:50 PM
One question that I would like to know: Is this a problem that is actually occuring in a game? In virutally every game I have played, there was never a suggestion to pull out a Rope Trick after going through 3.46 encounters that day. :smallannoyed: And I play the wizard, at that.

Second, I think there's a very big misconception wandering around this thread. It's the same misconception that D&D designers had when they first wrote up 3rd edition, namely that wizards are going to load up on combat spells and use them all in combat. Realistically, if your party is facing a potential 20 encounters to get from town A to town B, what will your party consider the best option? Riding to town B and facing all 20 encounters? Riding on conjured Phantom Steeds and only fighting the encounters that you don't outrun? Letting the wizard spend a day or two scrying than then teleporting their directly?

If you need to save the mayor's daughter from 500 orcs, what is the best option? Run in behind the fighter and fight them all? Turn the rogue invisible so that he can free the daughter from the altar? Use summoned Earth Elementals and Invisible Servants to make the orcs think they're being attacked from the other side of camp?

Here's a better question: What is the FIGHTER going to do in these situations?

The whole point of the Tier system isn't just who can kill the most orcs - it's who is the most versatile and capable of resolving multiple issues that they may encounter. The wizard is top tier because they can prepare for just about anything, and they have spells that can deal with just about anything they don't prepare for. The fighter is bottom tier because all they do is hit something with a stick. And when your campaign is throwing you up against something you can't beat with a stick - and no, the fighter really cannot take down 500 orcs even with support - then it falls upon the party members who can do something else to resolve the problem.

Necessity is the mother of invention, as they say. Throw your party up against 20+ encounters daily, and they party will just become flying invisible wizards. The fighters are dead weight simply because they cannot contribute meaningfully in this scenario. The best contributors are the ones who can successfully allow the party to bypass/ignore the largest percentage of encounters, which happens to be the Tier 1 group. Unsurprisingly enough.

taltamir
2009-12-30, 11:14 PM
Imagine if they had tested for more than four. They would have come to the conclusion that the poor, poor blasting wizards were incapable and needed buffs.

yes. yes they would have.


They did - hence, reserve feats were printed.

but that was after the fact. a "correction" of sorts... and takes the wrong assumption... most of the time people have less than 4 encounters per day, not more.

imagine if WOTC had playtested with only 1 encounter per day... they would have concluded that the wizards are grossly overpowered and that the fighters needed a boost.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-30, 11:33 PM
One question that I would like to know: Is this a problem that is actually occuring in a game? In virutally every game I have played, there was never a suggestion to pull out a Rope Trick after going through 3.46 encounters that day. :smallannoyed: And I play the wizard, at that.

I've never actually seen a wizard suggest that because of the number of encounters. I have seen characters of all flavors suggest resting for the night because resources in general were depleted due to multiple fights, but a 15min workday it was not.

icefractal
2009-12-30, 11:46 PM
Remember, noncasters have finite resources too. Most obviously, hit points.

A Barbarian on his 23rd non-trivial combat encounter of the day is not going to be much happier than the Sorcerer, I'd think. =/when the spells run out, casters and non casters are now fighting with bows, arrows, and swords.

The non casters have more HP, and more AC, and better to hit... in other words, those resources last longer for them then they do for the castersYou know how long the non-casters will be able to keep fighting after the spells run out? One encounter. Maybe.

For the casters to run out of spells in the first place, the encounters were presumably tough enough that the non-casters couldn't easily slay them without using resources. So now the non-casters have to keep going, with no short-term buffs, no healing, and virtually no backup (a Wizard with a sling is such a minimal threat it's probably better for him to just stay hidden, so as not to require protection). If they're lucky, they can, with significant wounds, survive a single encounter. Of course then the whole group would be TPK'd by any encounters while resting, so it'd be smarter to stop before that point.

Saying that the mission is critical isn't going to help matters. When the group is down to half-strength and out of healing, they're not going to be defeating stuff that they were being challenged by at full strength. So the choice is pretty much retreat or die.


Also:
since they are not making en effort to be a damage magnet, they are assumed to be attacked by equal amounts of monsters.If the warriors are going to throw the Wizard under the bus when he outlives his usefulness, the Wizard has little incentive to stick around then instead of using his last spell to Teleport away. In fact, at higher levels (once Teleport isn't a major spell expenditure) he may as well do that anyway, as a spell-less Wizard hurts a non-sociopathic team more than he helps them by being there.

aje8
2009-12-30, 11:50 PM
I apoligize for the redundancy I caused.


I've never actually seen a wizard suggest that because of the number of encounters. I have seen characters of all flavors suggest resting for the night because resources in general were depleted due to multiple fights, but a 15min workday it was not.
My thoughts exactly. My Wizards don't fight an encounter and immediatley activate Rope Trick. They fight till the party runs out of resources and needs a rest. And it usually isn't me that calls for a rest either.

Kylarra
2009-12-30, 11:54 PM
I wonder if the 15 minute workday isn't generally more of a dead unicorn trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeadUnicornTrope), I mean it sounds ideal in certain cases, but I've never actually heard of them happening myself, at least not seriously.

Zaydos
2009-12-31, 12:00 AM
I've had players fight 1 or 2 encounters and leave the dungeon to go rest (we were 13 at the time). There's a reason I have bad things happen if you do that now. Even worse was when they decided to rest in the dungeon. They took precautions, they closed the doors and blocked them. They were one room from a swarm. They survived (they had used < 50% of their resources) but it did get riduculous. We were young and nobody was optimized.

Now? Nobody I know would do that.

deuxhero
2009-12-31, 12:18 AM
Speaking of cRPGs in the first post, I loved MoTBs method of keeping rest down (In a nut shell, you need to eat souls, or a supernatural hunger eats you, not to mention a high chance interruption)

taltamir
2009-12-31, 12:53 AM
Speaking of cRPGs in the first post, I loved MoTBs method of keeping rest down (In a nut shell, you need to eat souls, or a supernatural hunger eats you, not to mention a high chance interruption)

except, you had to supress or you would die of hunger, and suppressing was lawful good.
but yea, that was a capital example of plot time constraint and shifting the balance. still... at epic levels it just wasn't enough.

deuxhero
2009-12-31, 11:32 AM
Hence why they removed the alignment shifts in a patch.