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drevil
2009-12-31, 07:12 AM
Have someone ever managed to kill a God?
WotC released their stats. Surely, its because the Gods are killable.


Here is my epic God-killing idea:

1) As a optimized chaotic Cleric 20 of [insert Good God], I hunt down all worshippers and churches of [Insert opposing Evil God] and burn them.

2) The Evil God gets angry, enters the Material world to ill me in his less powerful avatar-form.

3) The tricky part: My Good God and his God-allies are waiting to ambush the Evil God when he strikes me.
The Evil God was only prepared to fight a simple Cleric 20.
Suddently, a couple of Gods ambush him and hopefully kill him.

4) I get killed, and then resurrected.


Any thoughts?
Someone said something about a "Dagger of Immortal-killing".

Innis Cabal
2009-12-31, 07:13 AM
Kill as many of his followers as you can.

mikej
2009-12-31, 07:16 AM
golden rule; "If it has stats, it can be killed."

Become a god yourself. Gain worshippers. You could pump your Diplomacy soo high that you could make people worship you.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-31, 07:16 AM
Level up to around level 60 and smack the unoptimized wimps in the face.

kamikasei
2009-12-31, 07:48 AM
Ask your DM. How deities work and what they're vulnerable to is highly dependent on the table you're playing at. In principle, if you're high enough level, you can simply fight and kill them as normal.

Joey/Flake
2009-12-31, 08:06 AM
Ur Priest lvl 20.


I personally feel, that surpassing the epics of the class would enable a greater level of power to be taken from a deity. After all, stealing divine rank is even mentioned with in the Deity book(Inable to refrence with out book at hand).

Of course, learning /HOW/ and /SURVIVING/ are both highly difficult things. But if anyone was to render a God Mortal, in my view it would be te learners of Ur.

Then again, there is a lovely little thing a god can throw at you when you start killing his followers an Aleax, Book of Exalted Deeds pg. 158.

It's you. Just harder. And your group can't help you hurt it. Have fun!

drevil
2009-12-31, 08:36 AM
Kill as many of his followers as you can.

That wont kill a God.
And he wont just sit and watch his people beeing slaughtered.
At some point, he will intervene.




Become a god yourself. Gain worshippers. You could pump your Diplomacy soo high that you could make people worship you.

You cant become a God by using Dipolomacy to gain followers.
Getting Godhood is more difficult.




Ur Priest lvl 20.

an Aleax, Book of Exalted Deeds pg. 158.
It's you. Just harder.

What does an Ur priest have that give him a better chance?
I am not very familiar with non-core.

Lamech
2009-12-31, 08:36 AM
Dweamerkeeper/tainted scholar/fatespinner supernatural wish to send them into a sphere of annilation. A lot a bit of taint and no way they make the save except on a twenty, and no divine powers are a local effect so they don't protect the diety. No they don't have anything that stops them from being sucked into a sphere of annilation and annilated. Fatespinner is to force the reroll just incase, bit I'm not sure if that is possible pre-epic.

That kills one intermediate or weaker deity per caster level. If the DM is nice one could argue that Fatespinner can force and actual reroll, in which case greater dieties bite it too. In fact I would say the auto 20 of dieties doesn't apply to rerolls because it only mentions one reroll per save.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-12-31, 08:41 AM
Pun-Pun. Commoner Railgun? Katanas?

Epic Spellcasting. :smalltongue:

kamikasei
2009-12-31, 08:42 AM
That wont kill a God.
...
You cant become a God by using Dipolomacy to gain followers.
Getting Godhood is more difficult.

Please describe what you know of how your DM rules gods work. Otherwise we're not going to be able to give useful advice.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-31, 08:55 AM
What does an Ur priest have that give him a better chance?
I am not very familiar with non-core.

Nothing too unusual, by the rules, but an Ur-Priest's whole theme is that they steal power from the gods. They're a prestige class, lasts 10 levels, grants 9th-level spellcasting. So you can throw out a Miracle at level 15. They can steal spell-like abilities, wishes, etc from outsider (divine agents). An epic Ur-Priest, thematically, would be the best anti-god agent. Either that or an Athar Defiant, who has ranks in the prestige class of god-hating.

Pity about the "evil" requirement on Ur-Priests, though. But yeah, we're going to have to know more.

Holes I can poke ATM...
1) Track down all of them? Doesn't that seem a bit difficult?

2) How do you know he's going to incarnate? He could pay off some yugoloths and send a EL 23 strike force at you. And if he does incarnate, how do you know he'll come to you, instead of waiting in ambush while you continue your witch hunt?

3) Gods are typically super-intelligent. You don't think he'd be prepared for an ambush? Sure, he probably wouldn't expect a god, but he'd be prepared for (at the very least) your mortal allies. And who's to say your gods will intervene? If your gods gang up on this evil god, the evil gods will get pissed and strike back. You might be inciting a cosmic war here. Sure, gods will die. But the consequences might be a bit more than that.

4) If you can be resurrected, why can't the evil god? After all, he only sent an avatar. In my experience an avatar of a god is simply a powerful mortal possessed by a good portion of the god's energy.

bosssmiley
2009-12-31, 09:27 AM
Planescape says kill their worshippers (or gank them in their place of power...)
Faerun has spells that can kill gods and take their power.

Joey/Flake
2009-12-31, 09:43 AM
Gah, this is where having the book to have would be damn useful.

I know that for example creating a Anti Magic Zone won't work around them, as it done by a Mortal(Non DR 0+) and they ar immune.

I'm not sure if this will also apply to the normal casting of a character. On top of that, they have InnateSR, Godly Evasion, ect

Presight.. The ability to hear for mile per DR.. List goes on.

But with out the book, I can;t tell you how they would avoid a mix caster wish spell.. My betting is SR, or simply laughing at the Mortal magic.

Ur Priest have no Epic Progression rules. This would need to be figured out along side your DM.

And Aleax destroy your soul. No ress allowed.

I'ld simply let Helm Punch a hole into X god head. Like he did with another one!

Free point to who ever gets the god/ess name?

drevil
2009-12-31, 09:48 AM
Thank you for a great reply, Foryn Gilnith.
I know my plan is not perfect. But I have never heard of any better.

@Lamech: Nice wish-tactic. Does it really work by the rules? What is a supernatural wish?




Holes I can poke ATM...
1) Track down all of them? Doesn't that seem a bit difficult?


All of them is unlikely. All a Cleric 20 can find is more likely.





2) How do you know he's going to incarnate? He could pay off some yugoloths and send a EL 23 strike force at you. And if he does incarnate, how do you know he'll come to you, instead of waiting in ambush while you continue your witch hunt?


Valid points. I dont know what "yugoloths" or an "EL 23 strike force" is, but I see your point.
I was hoping my cleric 20 was so optimized, that nobody in Monsters Manual could kill him :)
But I totally see your point.
I dont know when the Evil God will strike me, but my Good God always watches over me during my mission.
The Evil God reveal himself for the Good God when he ambushes me.
His job is to ambush the Evil God when I get ambushed.
I am the sacrifice :)




3) Gods are typically super-intelligent. You don't think he'd be prepared for an ambush? Sure, he probably wouldn't expect a god, but he'd be prepared for (at the very least) your mortal allies. And who's to say your gods will intervene? If your gods gang up on this evil god, the evil gods will get pissed and strike back. You might be inciting a cosmic war here. Sure, gods will die. But the consequences might be a bit more than that.


He may be prepared for an ambush, but he will never suspect that I have planned this epic mission with my own God. That is why my own God will intervene.
Cosmic war, indeed. After all, I am chaotic good.
Fight the evil. Dont just sit and watch as evil spred around the world :)




4) If you can be resurrected, why can't the evil god? After all, he only sent an avatar. In my experience an avatar of a god is simply a powerful mortal possessed by a good portion of the god's energy.

You are right. I will probably be killed in an uresurrectable way.
Both me and the Evil God must die.
Killing the avatar will kill the God, right?
I remember a God beeing killed during the Times of Trouble (all Gods in Avatar-form).

drevil
2009-12-31, 10:03 AM
Faerun has spells that can kill gods and take their power.

Interesting! Which spells?
Can mortal magic harm Gods?


Please describe what you know of how your DM rules gods work. Otherwise we're not going to be able to give useful advice.

I have not discussed this with my DM. I just wanted to hear your opinions.



I'ld simply let Helm Punch a hole into X god head. Like he did with another one!


Actually, thats what I am doing in my plan. The problem is that Helm wont be able to find God X. Thats where I come in the picture.
I hopefully reveal the Evil God for the Good God, as he ambushes me.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-31, 10:16 AM
The "easiest" path is epic spellcasting. Let's say we're going after Erthynul. Develop a spell that summons him and blasts him with 1260d4 sonic damage. Pump up the DC by, let's say, 45 points, so he can't pass the save except on a natural 20. Backlash as much damage as you can, and collect as many people as you can to contribute spell slots. Gathering a whole arseload of solars would be best, to make a dramatic first strike. Contribute spell slots until the DC is 0, making it free and instantaneous to research. You now have a corpse of Erythnul lying in front of you.

Problem: You're not epic level, and Deities and Demigods wasn't really designed to mesh with epic level rules.

Rules for avatars can be found http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Avatar_(Divine_Ability)

The Time of Troubles did not involve avatars in the strict rules sense. It was an special plot thing Ao cooked up.

EDIT: There's a 12th-level spell called Karsus's Avatar that can temporarily steal a deity's divinity. It's setting-specific, and in the setting it is specific to, Mystra bars all mortals from accessing 10th/11th/12th level spells. It would be higher-level, but the material components required are insane.

PS:

Valid points. I dont know what "yugoloths" or an "EL 23 strike force" is, but I see your point.
I was hoping my cleric 20 was so optimized, that nobody in Monsters Manual could kill him :)

Yugoloths aren't in core. A better example, in the SRD: Pit Fiends. Pit Fiends normally work in pairs of up to 4. Let us suppose, that because he's a god, your enemy has acquired 4 Pit Fiends with their annual Wish available for use. Can you handle 4 Pit Fiends? Can you handle 4 Pit Fiends, 4 Horned Devils, 2 Ice Devils, and 2 Erinyes; if they go nova and spend all their summoning? Maybe you can, with your adventuring friends and divine support.

hamishspence
2009-12-31, 10:29 AM
Faerun has spells that can kill gods and take their power.

the spell Karsus's avatar was a "high level spell" of 12th level or so, rather than an Epic Spell.

EDIT: Ninjaed.

Mystra, after reincarnating from being killed by it, revised the magic system to prevent that sort of thing happening again.

Generally, in Faerun, when mortals kill deities, they usually have some sort of divine backing- Cyric slaying Bhaal, for example, had the backing of the deity Mask. Finder Wyvernspur slaying Moander, had the backing of Tymora. And so on.

kamikasei
2009-12-31, 10:59 AM
I have not discussed this with my DM. I just wanted to hear your opinions.

Our opinions are pretty much useless until we know how your DM is running gods, though.

Lysander
2009-12-31, 12:03 PM
You are right. I will probably be killed in an uresurrectable way.
Both me and the Evil God must die.
Killing the avatar will kill the God, right?
I remember a God beeing killed during the Times of Trouble (all Gods in Avatar-form).

Unfortunately not. An avatar is just a puppet of the god, a weaker version of themselves they can send out and command via remote control. They can have several at a time and replace them if killed. It takes a while to replace them though but doesn't killing one doesn't harm the deity otherwise:


An avatar serves as a deity’s alter ego, effectively allowing the deity to be in two or more places at the same time. An avatar is an extension of a deity. The deity senses and knows everything the avatar senses and knows and vice versa. Each avatar counts as a remote location where the deity is sensing and communicating. A lesser deity can have up to five avatars at once, an intermediate deity can have up to ten, and a greater deity can have up to twenty avatars at once. It takes a deity one year to create an avatar or replace a destroyed avatar.

kamikasei
2009-12-31, 12:11 PM
He may be prepared for an ambush, but he will never suspect that I have planned this epic mission with my own God.

Why wouldn't he suspect that? If this tactic is a good one, why wouldn't it have been attempted before in the history of the multiverse, and gods know to watch out for it?


I remember a God beeing killed during the Times of Trouble (all Gods in Avatar-form).

Actually, thats what I am doing in my plan. The problem is that Helm wont be able to find God X. Thats where I come in the picture.

Are you playing in Forgotten Realms? Then we at least have some guidelines on how gods work in the setting.

drevil
2010-01-01, 12:53 PM
@Lysander: Thanks for the avatar-info. I was wrong.




Are you playing in Forgotten Realms?

Yes.

Volkov
2010-01-01, 04:01 PM
You need to have a divine rank higher than any god presented in the book to permanently kill some of them off. If you are seeking to fight an overdeity, quit now while your ahead. They are unstatted for a reason. And that reason is that they are to weaker gods as gods are to mortals

magic9mushroom
2010-01-01, 04:28 PM
The DM being kind, basically. Deities and Demigods basically tells the DM they should think about scaling gods to always be a massive challenge (CR a bit more than party level + 8).

There's also funky stuff like Rejuvenation and Life And Death to worry about. Either of those can really ruin your day. And Alter Reality (on most full gods) means you can have Miracles and Wishes in your face in really short order.

Your best chance of killing a god is to use some sort of plot method. After that, you're in trouble. Some are horrendously unoptimised as statted in Deities and Demigods, but whether the DM keeps them that way is, of course, up to her.

If the god is as optimised as you are, you're screwed unless you actually go and get divine ranks yourself. If given as in the book, you could do it by abuse of metamagic (make sure to include Searing Spell) or epic spellcasting abuse, or probably a couple of other things.

Spheres of Annihilation aren't guaranteed. It's spelled out that the intervention of a deity can restore an annihilated character.

Xenogears
2010-01-01, 04:45 PM
The only really important thing to know is what Salient Divine Abilities the god in question has. If the have stuff lik Hand of Life and Death he kills you from his throne room, Rejuvination means only gods stronger than him keep him dead for more than a few weeks, Avatar means a series of semi-gods sent after you while he sits back and sips tea, Divine Spellcasting means 10+ level spells, True Knowledge + Bard levelsmeans knowing everything possible, etc.

There are just too many Salient Divine Abilities that are instant wins and the god gets one of them per divine rank. Without knowing them then it is just about impossible to see if killing them is possible for even your god without DM Fiat.

Origomar
2010-01-01, 06:08 PM
Locate city bomb lul.

that is of course assuming they dont have improved evasion

SoC175
2010-01-01, 06:50 PM
Well, generally the short answer would be: Reduce the deity to -10 by means against which she is not immune :smallbiggrin:


Have someone ever managed to kill a God?
WotC released their stats. Surely, its because the Gods are killable.


Here is my epic God-killing idea:

1) As a optimized chaotic Cleric 20 of [insert Good God], I hunt down all worshippers and churches of [Insert opposing Evil God] and burn them.

2) The Evil God gets angry, enters the Material world to ill me in his less powerful avatar-form.

3) The tricky part: My Good God and his God-allies are waiting to ambush the Evil God when he strikes me.
The Evil God was only prepared to fight a simple Cleric 20.
Suddently, a couple of Gods ambush him and hopefully kill him.

4) I get killed, and then resurrected.


Any thoughts?
Someone said something about a "Dagger of Immortal-killing". Actually part two isn't needed. If he sends an avatar to the prime and the avatar is killed, the deity itself suffers no harm from it. And if your deity and his pals ambush him on the outer planes, there's no difference in whether he send an avatar to the prime or not.

Dweamerkeeper/tainted scholar/fatespinner supernatural wish to send them into a sphere of annilation. A lot a bit of taint and no way they make the save except on a twenty, and no divine powers are a local effect so they don't protect the diety. No they don't have anything that stops them from being sucked into a sphere of annilation and annilated. Fatespinner is to force the reroll just incase, bit I'm not sure if that is possible pre-epic.

That kills one intermediate or weaker deity per caster level. If the DM is nice one could argue that Fatespinner can force and actual reroll, in which case greater dieties bite it too. In fact I would say the auto 20 of dieties doesn't apply to rerolls because it only mentions one reroll per save.
Actually there's a problem with that: A SoA is a transmutation effect and deities are immune to this.

Faerun has spells that can kill gods and take their power. That's not correct. 'Karsus Avatar', the spell you're refering to, only allows the caster to temporarily merge with a deity and after the duration is over, the caster and the deity are seperated - killing the caster and leaving the deity none the worse for wear

Are you playing in Forgotten Realms? Then we at least have some guidelines on how gods work in the setting. Unfortunately these would also be the worst guidelines for this purpose, as the FR has a setting specific rule that no deity can be slain by a mortal. Divine aid is always requires to land a true killing blow. See F&A for an explanation why even during the ToT this rule was never broken and the F&P Web Enhancement to see that the rule made it over to 3.x

Fitz10019
2010-01-01, 07:02 PM
Terry Pratchett covered this.

You take over the Tooth Fairy's castle, and use the tooth collection to command all the world to stop believing in that person/diety. Consult your DM for specifics on spells needed, and where the #$%@ Tooth Fairy stores her tooth collection.
Anyone see the BBC movie version? Great stuff!

Milskidasith
2010-01-01, 07:54 PM
Locate city bomb lul.

that is of course assuming they dont have improved evasion

The locate city bomb doesn't work. Even if it did, the deity wouldn't be thrown far unless he was on an entirely flat plane (and you assumed that it was a cylinder, not a circle, the spell covers). The only working version gives a negative level to everything, good but not amazing.

drevil
2010-01-02, 01:40 PM
...go and get divine ranks yourself. If given as in the book, you could do it by abuse of metamagic (Searing Spell) or epic spellcasting abuse, or probably a couple of other things.

Getting Divine Ranks by abusing metamagic and epic spellcasting?
How can I get the Divine Ranks? I thought only the Gods could get them.
Are you talking about 'Karsus Avatar' ?


Mortals challenging Gods have always amused me. Reminds me of Raistlin.

Samb
2010-01-02, 02:27 PM
I think Pun pun had a way to gain divine ranks using Ice assassin, but Pun-pun has been examined so much that he is considered to be cheating to begin with.

The literature on obtaining godhood and killing gods does exist in canon despite what Gods and Deities say about "it's up to the DM".

Orcus, a "mere" demon lord, killed Primus while he was just a shade of his former self using some ancient power word. Although there is some debate that Orcus really is a god himself.

Gods have killed each other permanently throughout time so it is assumed that one would need to be a god to kill one. The means to becoming a god is more than just having fanatics worship you. The Lich queen of the Githyanki had the whole race under her complete control that githyanki over level 15 willingly (for the most part) sacrificed their life (force) to her, and yet she was not a goddess. She used the life force from the near epic giths to fuel thousands upon thousands of wish spells the try to steal the divine spark of The One in the Void. So no, it is not as easy as everyone say.

The astral plane is full of dead/sleeping gods. Killing the faith in one god is what causes them to become dormant, not killing its followers. The Romans tried to do that to the Christians and you can see the result of that. Killing faithfuls only makes martyrs and in the end counter-productive.

RandomNPC
2010-01-02, 02:32 PM
stop beleivers from having beleif.

you should know that in the end the above mentioned tooth fairy example didn't work out, deaths adopted granddaughter had a hand in it.

9mm
2010-01-02, 03:18 PM
Interesting! Which spells?
Can mortal magic harm Gods?

Crunch wise? no idea. Fluff Wise... Mystra, god of magic, was killed by magic.

SoC175
2010-01-02, 03:23 PM
Orcus, a "mere" demon lord, killed Primus while he was just a shade of his former self using some ancient power word. Although there is some debate that Orcus really is a god himself. Actually Orcus was a lesser deity in his own right (as were many of his peers) until 3.x demoted him to a mere demonlord.

When Orcus killed Primus he had knowledge of the Last Word, a lost utterance in the language of creation which instandly annihilates anything and anyone against which it's spoken. Even merely knowing the Last Word isntandly annihilates any non-divine being (so it's no option for a mortal to kill a deity).

Orcus, while having returned as Tenebrous, was not at his full lesser deity power and something akin to a quasideity. Thus he was not instandly slain upon learning the word, yet the knowledge of the word was slowly killing him from the inside.

drevil
2010-01-02, 04:53 PM
I think Pun pun had a way to gain divine ranks using Ice assassin.

Could you tell me where to find info about "Ice assassin"?

Does anybody know the steps to achieve godhood?

Origomar
2010-01-02, 05:13 PM
The locate city bomb doesn't work. Even if it did, the deity wouldn't be thrown far unless he was on an entirely flat plane (and you assumed that it was a cylinder, not a circle, the spell covers). The only working version gives a negative level to everything, good but not amazing.

Well if you use it to kill all of his followers then he technicaly has no one who beleives in him and is now powerless.

Veeda Vidlak
2010-01-02, 07:54 PM
1. Unite Pandorym's mind and body.
2. Congratulate yourself on a job well done.

Evard
2010-01-02, 08:05 PM
golden rule; "If it has stats, it can be killed."

Become a god yourself. Gain worshippers. You could pump your Diplomacy soo high that you could make people worship you.

Unless those stats are infinity signs ^ - ^

I made my DM a character sheet once that pointed out all his good points and flaws, he took it pretty well since it was just for fun but his hit points were infinity :p .

Domigorgon
2010-01-02, 08:36 PM
Break into the Tooth Fairy's Castle, pile up all the teeth, and cast a control spell on the teeth owners, forcing them into disbelieving the deity in question. Rinse, repeat.

But you better watch out...

Edit: Oh, somebody already had the idea. Ah, well. It must be worth something, then.

Samb
2010-01-03, 10:54 AM
Well if you use it to kill all of his followers then he technicaly has no one who beleives in him and is now powerless.

You have to kill them all at once. And even then there is no granutee that gods derive divinity from belief in the first place. Canon has supported the "divine spark" theory. This has the following implications:
1)Those that become gods were destined to become so. Supported by the adventure module in Planescape (Harbringer House) were an apprentice, Sougad Lawshredder, had such a spark. The ritual involved selective killing of people in Sigil. And he still needed 2 artifacts and a planer anomly in Sigil (the Harbringer House) to make it happen. If the PCs fail to stop him, then he becomes a god of slaughter and torture, and not like your PCs.

2)You can steal the divine spark from someone who has it. The wizard from the above cited example was one who was trying to do that. I already listed the Lich Queen trying to spam wish spells (for the last hundreds of years) to try to steal it from a sleeping god.

So..... to become a god is a bit more complicated than what you think, at least according to canon. You are subscribing to the Godsmen philosophy which is also part of canon but none of the factions' beliefs have been proven. They are just beliefs.

drevil
2010-01-04, 07:44 AM
Break into the Tooth Fairy's Castle, pile up all the teeth, and cast a control spell on the teeth owners, forcing them into disbelieving the deity in question. Rinse, repeat.

But you better watch out...

Edit: Oh, somebody already had the idea. Ah, well. It must be worth something, then.

What is this Tooth Fairy-stuff? As a noob, I dont understand.
But I suspect this to be a joke.

Optimystik
2010-01-04, 08:18 AM
You have to kill them all at once. And even then there is no granutee that gods derive divinity from belief in the first place. Canon has supported the "divine spark" theory. This has the following implications:

*snip*

So..... to become a god is a bit more complicated than what you think, at least according to canon. You are subscribing to the Godsmen philosophy which is also part of canon but none of the factions' beliefs have been proven. They are just beliefs.

The problem is that the OP is playing in 3.5 Forgotten Realms, where Ao specifically tied Divine Status to number and strength of followers. While the methods of becoming a deity are indeed inconsistent (e.g. Finder Wyvernspur and Lathander, who became gods first and gained worshipers later,) the fate of deities who lose their existing followers is not.

Killer Angel
2010-01-04, 08:19 AM
What is this Tooth Fairy-stuff? As a noob, I dont understand.
But I suspect this to be a joke.

Have you never read Terry Pratchett? The Discworld series?

Well, I usually don't link to Wiki, but here you are (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discworld).
The specific reference, is the Hogfather (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogfather) novel

hamishspence
2010-01-04, 08:34 AM
While the methods of becoming a deity are indeed inconsistent (e.g. Finder Wyvernspur and Lathander, who became gods first and gained worshipers later,) the fate of deities who lose their existing followers is not.

"dead" deities can still grant spells, sometimes.

Some deities, such as Auppenser (Jhaamdathan deity of psionics) diminish massively through lack of worshippers but are still sort-of-alive. (Only Mostly Dead?)

Others are "dead" but can potentially be resurrected by their worshippers.

So its not clear if a deity "winks out" the moment their last worshipper dies.

Optimystik
2010-01-04, 08:40 AM
"dead" deities can still grant spells, sometimes.

Some deities, such as Auppenser (Jhaamdathan deity of psionics) diminish massively through lack of worshippers but are still sort-of-alive. (Only Mostly Dead?)

Others are "dead" but can potentially be resurrected by their worshippers.

So its not clear if a deity "winks out" the moment their last worshipper dies.

Oh, I never said they utterly cease to exist. But you'll notice that your contrary examples have one thing in common - that worshipers are still around, whether actively requesting spells or actively trying to get the god "reinstated."

Whereas with no worshipers, the deity might still exist, but can still do nothing much beyond floating.

hamishspence
2010-01-04, 09:11 AM
Sounds about right. Its not clear if the deity expires and their "body" promptly appears on the Astral plane, or if it continues to exist, but as a quasi-deity with Divine Rank 0.

Might depend on the DM.

Wings of Peace
2010-01-04, 09:11 AM
I can't find the old WotC thread about this right now. In a nut shell without Doc Roc to explain the intricacies it came down to the main deity you should have trouble killing is death deities as their own death falls under their portfolio sense letting them know you're coming before you come if they are of appropriate divine rank.

Xenogears
2010-01-04, 09:14 AM
I can't find the old WotC thread about this right now. In a nut shell without Doc Roc to explain the intricacies it came down to the main deity you should have trouble killing is death deities as their own death falls under their portfolio sense letting them know you're coming before you come if they are of appropriate divine rank.

That might be a non-problem. I mean either it is an inevitablilty so that even though they sense it they can do nothing to prevent it, it is only a possibility and so all divine spells must be changed to reflect a non-deterministic universe, or it sets up a paradoxal loop where if he prevents his death he no longer would have sensed it and thus would not have prepared for it and therefor died so he did sense it....

So either way there are serious problems with that ability.

Wings of Peace
2010-01-04, 09:22 AM
That might be a non-problem. I mean either it is an inevitablilty so that even though they sense it they can do nothing to prevent it, it is only a possibility and so all divine spells must be changed to reflect a non-deterministic universe, or it sets up a paradoxal loop where if he prevents his death he no longer would have sensed it and thus would not have prepared for it and therefor died so he did sense it....

So either way there are serious problems with that ability.

Unless the PC is a deity that death deity has alot of insta-gibbing potential even if optimized. A weeks time, a godly realm, and access to feats that kill any mortal with no save can do a lot for you. Especially when you throw casting onto it too (Fairly certain I recall deities getting cleric spells).

Xenogears
2010-01-04, 09:29 AM
Unless the PC is a deity that death deity has alot of insta-gibbing potential even if optimized. A weeks time, a godly realm, and access to feats that kill any mortal with no save can do a lot for you. Especially when you throw casting onto it too (Fairly certain I recall deities getting cleric spells).

Oh I know a god can kill them statwise. My post was in regards to the potential to create a paradox.

Basically either the univers is deterministic or it is not. If it is NON-deterministic (the future can be changed) then all divination spells hafta be changed to have a chance for the future to turn out differently. Also since he prevented his death he should no longer have sensed it and thus not prepared for it. This causes a paradox. If it is Deterministic then since the Diety sensed his death it WILL happen no matter what and so the point is moot.

Optimystik
2010-01-04, 09:51 AM
In D&D, the future is deterministic only in a very limited time period away from the present. That is, the further into the future you get, the more possible it is to change things. If the "death" the deity senses is a possible future, or even a probable one (rather than a certainty), then there is no paradox. Taking actions to avert ones own previously sensed demise would thus be possible.

Consider the following "future-based" powers and spells:

Precognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/precognition.htm) specifically mentions "potential futures."

Augury (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/augury.htm) is deterministic, but can only see half-an hour ahead. Time Duplicate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/timeDuplicate.htm) is similarly limited.

Time Regression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeRegression.htm) is perhaps the most telling - explicitly allowing you to change the "future" - due to having lived it.

Samb
2010-01-04, 10:13 AM
The problem is that the OP is playing in 3.5 Forgotten Realms, where Ao specifically tied Divine Status to number and strength of followers. While the methods of becoming a deity are indeed inconsistent (e.g. Finder Wyvernspur and Lathander, who became gods first and gained worshipers later,) the fate of deities who lose their existing followers is not.

My post was in regard to "kill all follower= kill god" and stating that it might not be the case. Ao..... doesn't have any follower as far as I know. Do he even grant spells (I'm sure he can if he wanted to)? Same with Io the lord of dragons, yet he is..... the lord of dragons. So it seems to have more to do with faith then just number of worshipper. Ao and Io are supreme and that is just a fact that everyone acknowledges.

The strength of a dietiy is tied to how many worshippers it has but its divinity is not. Which was my point. You either have the divine spark or you don't.

hamishspence
2010-01-04, 10:33 AM
Io isn't an Overdeity- but an Intermediate Deity- according to Draconomicon.

in Races of the Dragon- Io is quite commonly worshipped by kobold societies- especially non-evil ones.

Fishy
2010-01-04, 10:59 AM
Hmm. I know someone came up with a defense against precognition that used the Halting Problem and Quantum Mechanics, but I don't remember enough about it to use my googlemancy. Anyone know what I'm talking about?

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-04, 11:30 AM
I can't find the old WotC thread about this right now. In a nut shell without Doc Roc to explain the intricacies it came down to the main deity you should have trouble killing is death deities as their own death falls under their portfolio sense letting them know you're coming before you come if they are of appropriate divine rank.Try Vecna. His portfolio is anything less than, IIRC, 600, people know. So to keep something from him, you need to tell a town. And keep it from getting back to him.

Xenogears
2010-01-04, 11:35 AM
In D&D, the future is deterministic only in a very limited time period away from the present. That is, the further into the future you get, the more possible it is to change things. If the "death" the deity senses is a possible future, or even a probable one (rather than a certainty), then there is no paradox. Taking actions to avert ones own previously sensed demise would thus be possible.

Hmmm. In that case find some way to incapacitate them. Say tie them to the base of the spire thingy that stops all magic and divine powers. Then after however many weeks they can sense death at (to ensure that they didn't sense it before you incapacitated them) you kill them.

Samb
2010-01-04, 11:35 AM
Io isn't an Overdeity- but an Intermediate Deity- according to Draconomicon.

in Races of the Dragon- Io is quite commonly worshipped by kobold societies- especially non-evil ones.

I hate to use wiki as a defense but I don't have the books in front of me.



Title(s): The Ninefold Dragon, The Concordant Dragon, The Great Eternal Wheel, Swallower of Shades, Lord of the Gods, Creator of Dragonkind
Home plane: Outlands
Power level: Greater
Alignment: Neutral
Portfolio: Creation
Domains: Knowledge, Magic, Strength, Travel (plus Dragon and Wealth, and in Forgotten Realms: Spell)


And this....


Clergy
Io has fewer clerics than most draconic deities, though even the most devout cleric of other dragon gods (and many of Kurtulmak) gives him some homage. Clerics of Io have no hierarchy or fixed dogma; each interprets the Ninefold Dragon differently, worshiping him in one of his many aspects. Red dragons worship him as an evil being, while gold dragons revere him as a paragon of good. Those who would become Io's clerics seek to rid themselves of all such biases, though some never succeed.

Bold for emphasis.

Think about it: a demigod only has a few hundred-thousands worshippers. Obama has many more times the worshippers so is he a lesser god? I really wish players would stop thinking a diplomancer or cult leader is a god just because others think that. No Godsmen has even risen. None, that should tell you something about their philosophy: it's wrong.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-04, 11:37 AM
1. People do not worship Obama that way.
2. St. Cuthbert was a mortal who became a god, presumably through people's worship of him.

hamishspence
2010-01-04, 11:38 AM
Draconomicon overrides Wiki- for 3.5 D&D at least.

Unless Races of the Dragon retcons Io back to Greater Deity.

Io may have less clerics, but if he has more worshippers, it balances out. You don't need to be a cleric to be a worshipper, after all.

Xenogears
2010-01-04, 11:40 AM
1. People do not worship Obama that way.
2. St. Cuthbert was a mortal who became a god, presumably through people's worship of him.

Well I have met some people who do worship him that way but certainly not enough to make him even a demidiety.

Also to the post about Io it also said in the parts quoted that most dragons pay homage to him, worshippers of kurtalmak do, and it only says he has less clerics not less worshippers.

Samb
2010-01-04, 11:45 AM
Hmmm. In that case find some way to incapacitate them. Say tie them to the base of the spire thingy that stops all magic and divine powers. Then after however many weeks they can sense death at (to ensure that they didn't sense it before you incapacitated them) you kill them.

...............
You do realize that you also lose your spells and powers at the center of the outlands right? And the gods have much better stats than you (they can also add their divine ranks to all their rolls).

Killing a god is possible, but it really isn't as easy as you think.

Have you read the divine rules in SRD? You might think your level 40 cleric is badass but have you really read what a god is mechanically? They don't need to be optimized because optimizing is for people with limited resources. There is no such thing for gods. Us mortals need to conserve our skill ranks, our feats, spell slots etc. Hence the need to "optimize" Gods? All your spells are at will abilities for it. It can alter reality better (without using XP), it can teleport without error at will, they can add divine rank bonuses on everything, they don't auto-fail saves so even luck is not on your side, they can make artifacts, and wield them without penalty.

They don't need to know you are coming, by the time you get there they will just kick your ass the old fashoined way.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-04, 11:46 AM
Gods can probably retroactively unmake people too.

hamishspence
2010-01-04, 11:49 AM
some deities are probably easier to defeat than others. Even within the same rank level.

If the deity has the reincarnation salient ability though, you need to be a more powerful deity to kill it completely. Even catching it by surprise with a Sphere of Annihilation wouldn't permanently kill it.

Samb
2010-01-04, 11:51 AM
1. People do not worship Obama that way.
2. St. Cuthbert was a mortal who became a god, presumably through people's worship of him.

1) It was an anolgy. If all anyone needs is worshipers to become a god then many mortals would have risen already. As per SRD, a demigod only has a handful of worshippers.

2) Then St. Cuthbert was a mortal who had the divine spark.

Xenogears
2010-01-04, 11:54 AM
Have you read the divine rules in SRD? You might think your level 40 cleric is badass but have you really read what a god is mechanically? They don't need to be optimized because optimizing is for people with limited resources. There is no such thing for gods. Us mortals need to conserve our skill ranks, our feats, spell slots etc. Hence the need to "optimize" Gods? All your spells are at will abilities for it. It can alter reality better (without using XP), it can teleport without error at will, they can add divine rank bonuses on everything, they don't auto-fail saves so even luck is not on your side, they can make artifacts, and wield them without penalty.

No I never bothered with the SRD divine rules since the first DnD book I actually bought myself was Dieties and Demigods. First of all seeing as though Dieties hace 20 RHD and 30-50 levels (normally some exceptions do exist) They should really be CR 60+ at the least (not counting epic spell mitagation abuse). So a party of four lvl 60 characters should be able to take out most gods. So yeah given that a single lvl 40 character probably has little to no chance. A lvl 1 character probably can't beat a Balor either though so whats your point?

tyckspoon
2010-01-04, 11:56 AM
...............

They don't need to know you are coming, by the time you get there they will just kick your ass the old fashoined way.

And certain gods are still functionally nothing more than Fighters with bigger numbers and can be easily put down by an intelligently-built Epic character or high-end optimized non-Epic (Searing Spell Orbs of Flame will work on most of the weaker gods, for example.) Demigods and Lesser gods are relatively lame and should have their actual builds redone if you don't want your characters competing with them.

Xenogears
2010-01-04, 12:05 PM
And certain gods are still functionally nothing more than Fighters with bigger numbers and can be easily put down by an intelligently-built Epic character or high-end optimized non-Epic (Searing Spell Orbs of Flame will work on most of the weaker gods, for example.) Demigods and Lesser gods are relatively lame and should have their actual builds redone if you don't want your characters competing with them.

Not neccessarily. A DR 1 Diety could have Hand of Death. That means within one mile once per round you take a DC 21+Cha fort save or die. Success means you take 10d6 damage instead. So how quick can you get in range?

Alter Reality is infinite Free Wishes and only requires 29 Cha so DR 1 diety gets that too. Divine Blast IS available at DR 1 and deals 1d12+ 1d12 per Cha bonus (minimum 10 due to requiring 29 Cha) hits within a mile, only requires a ranged touch attack, and breaks through walls of force, prismatic effects, and similiar things, and is pure divine damage so not subject to energy protection.

Dieties powers are AMAZINGLY good but for a team of four characters of equal level to just the HD of the god (not counting abusing epic magic) and it should be doable.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-04, 12:06 PM
Meh, you only need a level one kobold...

Optimystik
2010-01-04, 12:07 PM
Draconomicon overrides Wiki- for 3.5 D&D at least.

Unless Races of the Dragon retcons Io back to Greater Deity.

He is Intermediate there as well (pg. 155.)


1) It was an anolgy. If all anyone needs is worshipers to become a god then many mortals would have risen already. As per SRD, a demigod only has a handful of worshippers.

I already addressed this. Becoming a god requires more than simply worshipers, I agreed with you on that.

STAYING a god, however, does not. In Toril: No worship, no juice, unless you're Ao and don't give a crap anyway.

SoC175
2010-01-04, 12:10 PM
I can't find the old WotC thread about this right now. In a nut shell without Doc Roc to explain the intricacies it came down to the main deity you should have trouble killing is death deities as their own death falls under their portfolio sense letting them know you're coming before you come if they are of appropriate divine rank. Actually all greater deities would sense their own deaths in advance, since the dead of the greater deity of portfolio X certainly is one of the most major things that could happen to portfolios X and all greater deitiese sense things affecting their portfolio at least 16 weeks in advance.

Samb
2010-01-04, 12:12 PM
No I never bothered with the SRD divine rules since the first DnD book I actually bought myself was Dieties and Demigods. First of all seeing as though Dieties hace 20 RHD and 30-50 levels (normally some exceptions do exist) They should really be CR 60+ at the least (not counting epic spell mitagation abuse). So a party of four lvl 60 characters should be able to take out most gods. So yeah given that a single lvl 40 character probably has little to no chance. A lvl 1 character probably can't beat a Balor either though so whats your point?
Getting a PC to level 60 is quite a feat in of itself and if a party of them wanted to kill a god, then they deserve a fair fight. Most mortals would be dead of old age, cancer, plots and/or intrigue by the time they hit level 40. I guess if your DM just lets you make level 100000 PCs then yeah gods are easy, but I was writing with the idea of level 20-40 (super epic).


And certain gods are still functionally nothing more than Fighters with bigger numbers and can be easily put down by an intelligently-built Epic character or high-end optimized non-Epic (Searing Spell Orbs of Flame will work on most of the weaker gods, for example.) Demigods and Lesser gods are relatively lame and should have their actual builds redone if you don't want your characters competing with them.

Fighters with more BAB, saves and HD...... and the ability to use any spell in their domain as many times as they want, tons of immunites, alter reality, a stash of artifacts, and a trophy room of epic heroes. What I just mentioned are things that most gods have, even the "weak" ones.

Mortals have limits, in terms of resources. They have finite XP, lifespan, feats, spells, gold etc. Optimizing is a way to maximize the resources given to us.

A god can use alter reality to acheive anything, can cast all spells spontaneously, they really have no need to optimize in the first place.

So I don't agree with you. Can a mortal beat a god? Yes, but it's not easy.

Xenogears
2010-01-04, 12:13 PM
Actually all greater deities would sense their own deaths in advance, since the dead of the greater deity of portfolio X certainly is one of the most major things that could happen to portfolios X and all greater deitiese sense things affecting their portfolio at least 16 weeks in advance.

I fail to see how, for example, the death of a Fire God actually affects Fire itself. Although some would. Gruumsh's death would certainly affect orcs.

Samb
2010-01-04, 12:17 PM
He is Intermediate there as well (pg. 155.) I'll have to take a look, but it doesn't change the fact that he has less worshippers than Tiamat, yet he is still of higher or the same divine rank as her. Hence, divinity=/= amount of worshippers.




I already addressed this. Becoming a god requires more than simply worshipers, I agreed with you on that.

STAYING a god, however, does not. In Toril: No worship, no juice, unless you're Ao and don't give a crap anyway.

I was trying to use Ao as an example that gods don't need worshipper to stay gods, as Ao is a clear example of this.

Optimystik
2010-01-04, 12:25 PM
I'll have to take a look, but it doesn't change the fact that he has less worshippers than Tiamat, yet he is still of higher or the same divine rank as her. Hence, divinity=/= amount of worshippers.

You are still confusing worshipers with clerics, but we pointed the difference out to you before. Fewer clerics != fewer worshipers. His text even mentions that he is worshiped by clerics of both Tiamat AND Bahamut - that doesn't mean they're asking him for spells.

Io has more than Bahamut and Tiamat, because he is revered by both chromatics and metallics.


I was trying to use Ao as an example that gods don't need worshipper to stay gods, as Ao is a clear example of this.

As the overdeity, Ao is not subject to the worshiper rule - especially since he created it in the first place.

Samb
2010-01-04, 12:31 PM
You are still confusing worshipers with clerics, but we pointed the difference out to you before. Fewer clerics != fewer worshipers. His text even mentions that he is worshiped by clerics of both Tiamat AND Bahamut - that doesn't mean they're asking him for spells.

Io has more than Bahamut and Tiamat, because he is revered by both chromatics and metallics. Hmmm paying homage seems more like me putting out cookies for Santa rather than praying to Christ or reading my Bible. This maybe a logistical thing, but Io techanically doesn't have worshippers in my eyes. He just kind of is a super god, because...... he just is.




As the overdeity, Ao is not subject to the worshiper rule - especially since he created it in the first place.
Ahhh I see, but an overdeity made the system so it is not so much a rule for deities in the rest of the multiverse but a rule for Ao's deities. Ao clearly doesn't follow his own rules, over deity or not, he is still a god.

Xenogears
2010-01-04, 12:31 PM
Getting a PC to level 60 is quite a feat in of itself and if a party of them wanted to kill a god, then they deserve a fair fight. Most mortals would be dead of old age, cancer, plots and/or intrigue by the time they hit level 40. I guess if your DM just lets you make level 100000 PCs then yeah gods are easy, but I was writing with the idea of level 20-40 (super epic).

So wait. You say that it is nigh impossible as a lvl 40 character. So I say yeah they're not CR appropriate for a lvl 40 character to solo. Your response is that no one gets that high so they don't count? Whatever. First of all the gods themselves did so obviously someone has to (Vecna atleast was a mortal who became a lich then a god. Someone also mentioned St. Cuthbert.) Second of all. Old Age? At Epic? Elans, Warforged, Lich, Ghost, De-aging spells. All pre epic. Nevermind crazy stuff in epic. No old age isn't gonna cut it. Either way.

Okay since levelling to the point it is a CR appropriate encounter is apparently not acceptable to you I propose a party composed of a Lvl 1 Pun Pun, a lvl 21Wizard abusing epic mitigation, a lvl whatever tainted scholar, and a lvl 1 commoner for the hell of it.

Samb
2010-01-04, 12:40 PM
So wait. You say that it is nigh impossible as a lvl 40 character. So I say yeah they're not CR appropriate for a lvl 40 character to solo. Your response is that no one gets that high so they don't count? Whatever. First of all the gods themselves did so obviously someone has to (Vecna atleast was a mortal who became a lich then a god. Someone also mentioned St. Cuthbert.) Second of all. Old Age? At Epic? Elans, Warforged, Lich, Ghost, De-aging spells. All pre epic. Nevermind crazy stuff in epic. No old age isn't gonna cut it. Either way.

Okay since levelling to the point it is a CR appropriate encounter is apparently not acceptable to you I propose a party composed of a Lvl 1 Pun Pun, a lvl 21Wizard abusing epic mitigation, a lvl whatever tainted scholar, and a lvl 1 commoner for the hell of it.

Ummm what's with the tone? I said getting to lvl 60 an amazing feat and those that get there honestly should be gods themselves...... I mentioned death (in the form old age, sharp teeth, disease, poinson etc) as a major obstacle in getting to lvl 60 because it is. A PC doesn't sit around and gain XP, they go out and put their lives at risk to achieve it, and one of the risks to adventuring is...... death.

At level 60, you have more feats than you can point your finger at, more gold than you know what to do with, maybe even an artifact or two, more PP/slots than you know what to do with, enough XP to use wish with inpunity. I mean optimizing a level 60 PC is a freaking joke, with so much resources at your disposal the need to optimize is just laughable.

Gods should be the ultimate challenage, and from what I can see, the divine saliant abilities in all divine characters lives up to its name.

tyckspoon
2010-01-04, 12:42 PM
Fighters with more BAB, saves and HD...... and the ability to use any spell in their domain as many times as they want, tons of immunites, alter reality, a stash of artifacts, and a trophy room of epic heroes. What I just mentioned are things that most gods have, even the "weak" ones.

god can use alter reality to acheive anything, can cast all spells spontaneously, they really have no need to optimize in the first place.

So I don't agree with you. Can a mortal beat a god? Yes, but it's not easy.

Most of those immunities? Not relevant. They stop you from whacking the god with a Save or Die, usually, but I suggested raw HP damage. Spells? Ok, useful, but not all domains have useful spells, and most of the weaker gods aren't designed with effective use of those spells in mind.

If you are fighting a god with Alter Reality then you are probably screwed, yes. But NOT ALL GODS HAVE IT. It's a specific Salient Divine Ability, not a general divine attribute. You could decide you want to cross swords with the god of war (for the sake of example: Lesser Deity, rank 6, with a focus on personal combat), for example, and his SDAs might be.. Divine Archery, Divine Battle Mastery, Divine Armor Mastery, Battlesense, Irresistable Blows, Divine Weapon Mastery, Supreme Initiative, and.. mm... Divine Blessing, why not. None of that is "Screw it, you lose" territory for a mortal. It's a difficult challenge, but it's not impossible, and it's not an unlikely set for a god to have.

Xenogears
2010-01-04, 12:47 PM
Ummm what's with the tone? I said getting to lvl 60 an amazing feat and those that get there honestly should be gods themselves...... I mentioned death (in the form old age, sharp teeth, disease, poinson etc) as a major obstacle in getting to lvl 60 because it is. A PC doesn't sit around and gain XP, they go out and put their lives at risk to achieve it, and one of the risks to adventuring is...... death.

At level 60, you have more feats than you can point your finger at, more gold than you know what to do with, maybe even an artifact or two, more PP/slots than you know what to do with, enough XP to use wish with inpunity. I mean optimizing a level 60 PC is a freaking joke, with so much resources at your disposal the need to optimize is just laughable.

Gods should be the ultimate challenage, and from what I can see, the divine saliant abilities in all divine characters lives up to its name.

Well yes at lvl 60 you have all that. And the god has all that (well outsider HD are good atleast...) plus a buttload more. More money, more allies, better items, some better feats (some divine are better than epic atleast), amazing inate abilities, some salient divine abilities are brokenly good, etc. So I think it's fair to say that an average god has almost everything the lvl 60 character has and more. Therefor a lvl 60 character might be able to win. Remember I'm assuming no is trying to break Epic Magic since then you just have two epic mages unable to kill eachother. So either you get lvl 50-60characters together and have a CR appropriate encounter or you use mega cheese. Or beat up the loser god that has lame domains and no good salient divine abilities and 40 levels of commoner.

Optimystik
2010-01-04, 12:59 PM
Hmmm paying homage seems more like me putting out cookies for Santa rather than praying to Christ or reading my Bible. This maybe a logistical thing, but Io techanically doesn't have worshippers in my eyes. He just kind of is a super god, because...... he just is.

Please don't mention real-world religions here, that's a fast route to lockville.

"Paying homage" is exactly what worshipers do in Faerun. Even the evil gods get good and neutral commoners to honor them, out of fear. Ignore Talos, his clerics zap your roof with lightning. Better light some incense to Umberlee before you set sail. And don't get me started on Beshaba, even the Harpers don't ignore her.

And then there are the evil faiths that actually do nice things to suckersolicit worship, like Malar's clerics feeding starving villages.


Ahhh I see, but an overdeity made the system so it is not so much a rule for deities in the rest of the multiverse but a rule for Ao's deities. Ao clearly doesn't follow his own rules, over deity or not, he is still a god.

Whether Ao follows the rules is irrelevant - he has no stats, thus he cannot be attacked. We are discussing deities that can be.

Ao just laughs and resets you to level 1, or tosses you into the Far Realm, or ignores your puny epic magic etc.

Samb
2010-01-04, 01:08 PM
Well yes at lvl 60 you have all that. And the god has all that (well outsider HD are good atleast...) plus a buttload more. More money, more allies, better items, some better feats (some divine are better than epic atleast), amazing inate abilities, some salient divine abilities are brokenly good, etc. So I think it's fair to say that an average god has almost everything the lvl 60 character has and more. Therefor a lvl 60 character might be able to win. Remember I'm assuming no is trying to break Epic Magic since then you just have two epic mages unable to kill eachother. So either you get lvl 50-60characters together and have a CR appropriate encounter or you use mega cheese. Or beat up the loser god that has lame domains and no good salient divine abilities and 40 levels of commoner.
If what you mean is a god is about a level 60 PC, then yes, I agree with you there. And if you look at that statement, you'd also see just how far a PC would need to go just to be on par with a god.


Whether Ao follows the rules is irrelevant - he has no stats, thus he cannot be attacked. We are discussing deities that can be.

Ao just laughs and resets you to level 1, or tosses you into the Far Realm, or ignores your puny epic magic etc.

Okay you convinced me. New theory: Divine spark needed to become a god, and worshippers to continue being one OR more up in divine ranks.

Xenogears
2010-01-04, 01:13 PM
If you are fighting a god with Alter Reality then you are probably screwed, yes. But NOT ALL GODS HAVE IT. It's a specific Salient Divine Ability, not a general divine attribute. You could decide you want to cross swords with the god of war (for the sake of example: Lesser Deity, rank 6, with a focus on personal combat), for example, and his SDAs might be.. Divine Archery, Divine Battle Mastery, Divine Armor Mastery, Battlesense, Irresistable Blows, Divine Weapon Mastery, Supreme Initiative, and.. mm... Divine Blessing, why not. None of that is "Screw it, you lose" territory for a mortal. It's a difficult challenge, but it's not impossible, and it's not an unlikely set for a god to have.

Hmmm. Divine Archery would allow him to start making ranged attacks from 6 miles away. So thats ummm about 34000ft. Thats a lot of attacks before you get close enough to hit him with anything. He'd also likely have an amazingly epic artifact bow.

drevil
2010-01-04, 01:42 PM
St. Cuthbert was a mortal who became a god, presumably through people's worship of him.


Vecna atleast was a mortal who became a lich then a god.

I am very interested in how to achieve godhood.
Isn't this mentioned in Deities and Demigods?
To kill a god, first become a god.
mortal vs god :smallfurious:
god vs god :smallbiggrin:

Xenogears
2010-01-04, 01:49 PM
I am very interested in how to achieve godhood.
Isn't this mentioned in Deities and Demigods?
To kill a god, first become a god.
mortal vs god :smallfurious:
god vs god :smallbiggrin:

The Dieties and Demigods book has numerous potential methods. It is still supposed to be up to the DM to decide. Some suggestions are killing a god, performing great deeds for the gods(works best in a pantheon of related dieties like Greek rather than something like traditional DnD gods), it can't happen, or you must be born with the potential.

@Samb: As to your comment. Yes I think a God is about equal to a lvl 60 PC. I never said it wasn't. Your the one who brought up a lvl 40 cleric. I responded by saying that a lvl 60 party would be more appropriate. Before that all I suggested were ways to get around death portfolio sense.

Samb
2010-01-04, 03:25 PM
Venca had access to some very old magic. He is a god of secrets and magic afterall. A serpent of creation whispers old magic into his ear. He even had a spell that let him absorb another deity!!! If anyone did figure out how to become a god, you could not find a more appropriate lich than Venca.

Optimystik
2010-01-04, 03:35 PM
Venca had access to some very old magic. He is a god of secrets and magic afterall. A serpent of creation whispers old magic into his ear. He even had a spell that let him absorb another deity!!! If anyone did figure out how to become a god, you could not find a more appropriate lich than Venca.

Velsharoon's way wasn't bad either - suck up to one god, claim asylum from another. Certainly it was quicker than Vecna's.

Wings of Peace
2010-01-04, 06:22 PM
Actually all greater deities would sense their own deaths in advance, since the dead of the greater deity of portfolio X certainly is one of the most major things that could happen to portfolios X and all greater deitiese sense things affecting their portfolio at least 16 weeks in advance.

That's debatable. The counter argument would be that deities of say murder for example are just managers. If I'm working at Border's and my manager dies it doesn't necessarily effect me, they might just take up the practices of the old manager and nothing changes for me.

It's important to note that a deity need not be an integral part of their portfolio. Murder to use the earlier example will likely keep on going and going whether it has a deity of it or not.

Xenogears
2010-01-04, 08:44 PM
That's debatable. The counter argument would be that deities of say murder for example are just managers. If I'm working at Border's and my manager dies it doesn't necessarily effect me, they might just take up the practices of the old manager and nothing changes for me.

It's important to note that a deity need not be an integral part of their portfolio. Murder to use the earlier example will likely keep on going and going whether it has a deity of it or not.

OTOH the Racial Gods like Gruumsh will almost certainly have a huge impact on their portfolio should they die.

Samb
2010-01-04, 09:16 PM
That's debatable. The counter argument would be that deities of say murder for example are just managers. If I'm working at Border's and my manager dies it doesn't necessarily effect me, they might just take up the practices of the old manager and nothing changes for me.

It's important to note that a deity need not be an integral part of their portfolio. Murder to use the earlier example will likely keep on going and going whether it has a deity of it or not.

That's like saying the CEO has very little effect on the company. It's a false statement. Yes, might still exist, yes the industry will still be around but the one running the show still has a big effect on it.

The debatable thing here is if a deitity would even care because you are just a high level ant that can't alter reality, grant spells, or spam 9th level spells at will.

Xenogears
2010-01-04, 09:29 PM
That's like saying the CEO has very little effect on the company. It's a false statement. Yes, might still exist, yes the industry will still be around but the one running the show still has a big effect on it.

The debatable thing here is if a deitity would even care because you are just a high level ant that can't alter reality, grant spells, or spam 9th level spells at will.

Thats a dirty double standard. Even assuming a non-deterministic world then if they can sense the possibility of their death then it means you are a legitimate threat since at least one possible future contains them dying. If you weren't powerful enough to kill them they would never sense you killing them.

hamishspence
2010-01-05, 06:38 AM
Sometimes being "killed" weakens the deity rather than killing it outright.

According to Dragons of Faerun after Bahamut and Tiamat fought each other to the death, they were both reduced in power to archfiend and celestial paragon. And only regained godhood quite recently.

This would fit with the Manual of the Planes stats for Bahamut and Tiamat as being only on a par with great wyrm dragons.

It also fits with the 2nd ed Draconomicon, which states that they are not deities, but very powerful unique dragons.

drevil
2010-01-05, 01:18 PM
I would like to kill Vecna. Could an epic level PC manage this?
Anybody have an build that could challenge Vecna?
I have his stats infront of me, but dont know how to exploit his weakness.

How would you kill Vecna?

SoC175
2010-01-05, 03:48 PM
Vecna? Hm,

weaknesses: very low hitpoints

strengths: Alter Reality, Automatic Quickened Arcane Spells, Divine Blast, level 16 arcane and level 12 divine spell slots, SR 62, undead immunities and divine immunities, can spontaneous cast wizard every spell in existence, knows your entire history (including any secrets) just by looking at you. Vecna also automatically becomes aware of your plan to kill him the moment you hatch it, since it affects more than 500 people (e.g. all his priests are affected by the loss of their deity)

Suggested tactic: Attack with spells that deal hp damage (sonic preferably,in a pinch fire)

drevil
2010-01-05, 05:25 PM
His Spell Resistance is 62, so I gave up spells.
But fortitude save is rather low (+28).

His grapple is only +32.
I could grapple him (Shapechanged into a gold dragon), and prevent him from casting spells.
He dont have ring of freedom of movement :)

Any other ideas?

SoC175
2010-01-05, 05:29 PM
His Spell Resistance is 62, so I gave up spells. Good decision.

But fortitude save is rather low (+28). Unfortunately he's also immune to all the really good effects that could take advantage of that.

His grapple is only +32.
I could grapple him (Shapechanged into a gold dragon), and prevent him from casting spells.
He dont have ring of freedom of movement :) But he has still spell as well as Arcane Master and Spontaneous Wizard Spells, so he can always cast a still freedom of movement or worse (and automatically also have it quickened)

Any other ideas?
Get Iuz on your side

Optimystik
2010-01-05, 05:41 PM
His Spell Resistance is 62, so I gave up spells.

It's good to look at these things in context, though. Recall that if you are level 60, that is effectively like him having SR of 2.

Also, many spells (like orbs) ignore SR entirely.

What level are you?

Samb
2010-01-05, 05:43 PM
I would like to kill Vecna. Could an epic level PC manage this?
Anybody have an build that could challenge Vecna?
I have his stats infront of me, but dont know how to exploit his weakness.

How would you kill Vecna?

Implant the hand of Vecna and wield the sword of Kas with that hand. That is the only way for the sword's power to function in Vecna's presence. At least that's how to do it in Die, Vecna, Die.

SoC175
2010-01-05, 05:45 PM
Also, many spells (like orbs) ignore SR entirely.
Orb Spells with Energy Substitution [Sonic] would be my best advice. That and somehow surprising him before he creates and AMF around himself.

drevil
2010-01-05, 05:45 PM
Who is Iuz?


Lets say I win the initative (most likely, I will).
I cast quickened Greater Dispel in case he already has a freedom of movement. Same round, I grapple his petite ass
(Shapecanged into a Great wyrm Gold dragon with insane grapple).

I am sure you guys know better ways to kill him.

SoC175
2010-01-05, 05:47 PM
Who is Iuz? A CE demigod with a special hatred for Vecna.

Lets say I win the initative (most likely, I will). Assuming you can cross his divine senses before he notices you and is already in Initiative with a delay waiting for your arrival

I cast quickened Greater Dispel in case he already has a freedom of movement. Same round, I grapple his petite ass
(Shapecanged into a Great wyrm Gold dragon with insane grapple). Which will allow you to grapple him for about half a turn until Venca has his round and starts with a quickened stilled freedom of movement

Samb
2010-01-05, 05:54 PM
Who is Iuz?


Lets say I win the initative (most likely, I will).
I cast quickened Greater Dispel in case he already has a freedom of movement. Same round, I grapple his petite ass
(Shapecanged into a Great wyrm Gold dragon with insane grapple).

I am sure you guys know better ways to kill him.

I already told you the proven way to beat him.

Iuz is the god that Vecna absorbed right before he created 3.0.

What level will you be? This the only god in history to enter Sigil, and end a D&D by himself. I think you are being a bit too cocky.

drevil
2010-01-05, 05:58 PM
Ah, crap. I forgot stilled. They can cast spells even if they are pinched, right?
Thats a turn-off.



Orb Spells with Energy Substitution [Sonic] would be my best advice. That and somehow surprising him before he creates and AMF around himself.

Good idea!
Where can I read more about "Orb Spells" and "Energy Substitution [Sonic]"?
I was hoping something core could kill Vecna.




Implant the hand of Vecna and wield the sword of Kas with that hand. That is the only way for the sword's power to function in Vecna's presence. At least that's how to do it in Die, Vecna, Die.

This is core.
What happens with Sword of Kas in the presence of Vecna?

drevil
2010-01-05, 06:02 PM
I already told you the proven way to beat him.

Iuz is the god that Vecna absorbed right before he created 3.0.

What level will you be? This the only god in history to enter Sigil, and end a D&D by himself. I think you are being a bit too cocky.

I was thinking an epic level 30 character :)
I am being very cocky, I know.
But I have seen some carzy stuff here, so I thought maybe Vecna is poundable.

SoC175
2010-01-05, 06:14 PM
Iuz is the god that Vecna absorbed right before he created 3.0. Correct. He was also stated in 3.0 in the Dragon Magazine Issue accompanying the release of Deities&Demigods. IIRC he's a outsider20/cleric20/assassin10 divine rank 5 demigod

Ah, crap. I forgot stilled. They can cast spells even if they are pinched, right?
Thats a turn-off. Unfortunately that's what it does.

Good idea!
Where can I read more about "Orb Spells" and "Energy Substitution [Sonic]"?
I was hoping something core could kill Vecna. IIRC they're from spell compendium or complete mage. Definately a non-core-source

Good idea!
Where can I read more about "Orb Spells" and "Energy Substitution [Sonic]"?
I was hoping something core could kill Vecna. Unfortunately nothing by core. However previous editions also didn't have anything special happening in this case just from the artifacts initial descriptions. Yet whenever an actual adventure was released where these met, they made sure to include some nice special effects just for that occasion.

Samb
2010-01-05, 07:10 PM
This is core.
What happens with Sword of Kas in the presence of Vecna?

The sword of Kas loses all its powers when it is near Vecna. Not even the sword knows this, and it still urges its wielders to kill the demigod.

Yet that is the only sword tha can really hurt Venca, the trick was to have the hand of Vecna and the sword to negate the power lose. And only then do you even have a chance of killing him.

Samb
2010-01-05, 07:38 PM
The sword of Kas loses all its powers when it is near Vecna. Not even the sword knows this, and it still urges its wielders to kill the demigod.

Yet that is the only sword tha can really hurt Venca, the trick was to have the hand of Vecna and the sword to negate the power lose. And only then do you even have a chance of killing him.

edit: that's how it worked in 2nd edition anyway

Oh and the eye and hand and the sword are Core. They are all in the DMG

Stompy
2010-01-05, 08:36 PM
Any other ideas?

AMF + grapple?
AMF + hider?

(I think there may be magic ways around AMF but your DM has to know them :P)

Not sure if those would work but they are ideas.

Xenogears
2010-01-05, 10:57 PM
Don't forget he's still a Lich. So you'd need to find his Phylactery. Being the god of secrets I'll bet it's well hidden...

Samb
2010-01-06, 07:40 AM
Don't forget he's still a Lich. So you'd need to find his Phylactery. Being the god of secrets I'll bet it's well hidden...

Nope he's a straight up god.

Anti-magic field? It clearly states that deities are not affected by it. So you are SOL there.

A level 50-60 PC MIGHT have a chance, but like I said before the sword of plot advancement....errr I mean Kas is the only thing that can really hurt it.

Xenogears
2010-01-06, 09:04 AM
Nope he's a straight up god.

Anti-magic field? It clearly states that deities are not affected by it. So you are SOL there.

A level 50-60 PC MIGHT have a chance, but like I said before the sword of plot advancement....errr I mean Kas is the only thing that can really hurt it.

But.... the fluff for himsays hes a lich.

FatR
2010-01-06, 10:04 AM
I would like to kill Vecna. Could an epic level PC manage this?
Anybody have an build that could challenge Vecna?
I have his stats infront of me, but dont know how to exploit his weakness.

How would you kill Vecna?
Cook up an epic magic spell to give your PC a protection against having his actions divined or predicted in any way. Use all the normal mitigation shenanigans. Then wait a few months and cook up an epic magic spell to summon Vecna in your presence/appear in his presence and blast him for over 9000 points of damage. Ignoring/reducing SR, of course. Basically, epic magic is the ultimate power of D&D world and Alter Reality, which merely grand unlimited Wishes (which is not that hard to duplicate by RAW, anyway, through making a Ring of Infinite Wishes), cannot compete with it.

Samb
2010-01-06, 10:41 AM
Cook up an epic magic spell to give your PC a protection against having his actions divined or predicted in any way. Use all the normal mitigation shenanigans. Then wait a few months and cook up an epic magic spell to summon Vecna in your presence/appear in his presence and blast him for over 9000 points of damage. Ignoring/reducing SR, of course. Basically, epic magic is the ultimate power of D&D world and Alter Reality, which merely grand unlimited Wishes (which is not that hard to duplicate by RAW, anyway, through making a Ring of Infinite Wishes), cannot compete with it.

Pretty sure he wanted to melee Vecna, hence all the talk about grappling and hitting him in the head.

That said, gods are not compeled to heed summons. And they gain epic spell feat/slots too you know? He is a god secrets and magic, you really think he can't do it better? That's a rhetorical question by the way.

Samb
2010-01-06, 10:44 AM
But.... the fluff for himsays hes a lich.

He was a lich. He takes the appearence of a lich missing his left hand and eye. But it doesn't change his nature.

I always wondered why he didn't become a demilich. Maybe Kas killed him before he could ascend? Not that it mattered since Kas is merely a death knight while Vecna is a demigod, maybe dying (for real) was the best thing that ever happened to Vecna.

Xenogears
2010-01-06, 10:46 AM
Pretty sure he wanted to melee Vecna, hence all the talk about grappling and hitting him in the head.

That said, gods are not compeled to heed summons. And they gain epic spell feat/slots too you know? He is a god secrets and magic, you really think he can't do it better? That's a rhetorical question by the way.

Technically if you take his written stats he does NOT have epic spells. He never took the epic spellcasting feat. He might have taken that Salient Divine Ability to give him 10th+ level slots though. Don't have stats in front of me. Of course the Dieties and Demigods book was designed with ELH being optional so most of them really should have Epic Casting.

Samb
2010-01-06, 10:57 AM
Technically if you take his written stats he does NOT have epic spells. He never took the epic spellcasting feat. He might have taken that Salient Divine Ability to give him 10th+ level slots though. Don't have stats in front of me. Of course the Dieties and Demigods book was designed with ELH being optional so most of them really should have Epic Casting.

I don't have the book in front of me either, but come on, this guy found a way absorb Iuz, become a greater god in a matter of minutes, escape Ravenloft, enter Sigil (!!!!) which is basically a win against the Lady of Pain. All those acheivements are unprecedented and likily never happen again. The thought that he doesn't have spells that far exceed mortals' is rediculous.

There was one level 60 NPC, Rowan Blackwood (cleric20/wizard20/ranger20) that tried to take on the Lady and it didn't go well for him. The Lady isn't even a god (ummm debatable) and he got pwn'ed like no other.

An ant can lift a leef several times it weight, very impressive, I know I can't do that. But we just kill them when we walk over them. That is really what gods view and PC under level 60 (or even level 80).

Xenogears
2010-01-06, 11:01 AM
I don't have the book in front of me either, but come on, this guy found a way absorb Iuz, become a greater god in a matter of minutes, escape Ravenloft, enter Sigil (!!!!) which is basically a win against the Lady of Pain. All those acheivements are unprecedented and likily never happen again. The thought that he doesn't have spells that far exceed mortals' is rediculous.

Oh I fully agree he should be given Epic casting. I was merely pointing out that by RAW he does NOT have it. Without the book in front of me I can't even be sure he can can use 10th+ level spells.

FatR
2010-01-06, 11:02 AM
Pretty sure he wanted to melee Vecna, hence all the talk about grappling and hitting him in the head.

That said, gods are not compeled to heed summons. And they gain epic spell feat/slots too you know? He is a god secrets and magic, you really think he can't do it better? That's a rhetorical question by the way.
No, they don't have epic spellcasting. We have their statblocks, after all, and can say for sure. No, you can't ignore the existence of epic spellcasting, while not ignoring the existence of salient divine abilities. And the epic spells don't ask you whether you're "complelled" to do something or not, they just do things. Yes, I'm positively convinced that he can't, because his character sheet says that he can't and wanky backgrounds that writers assign to their pet NPCs do not matter when we can compare character sheets.

Xenogears
2010-01-06, 11:04 AM
No, they don't have epic spellcasting. We have their statblocks, after all, and can say for sure. No, you can't ignore the existence of epic spellcasting, while not ignoring the existence of salient divine abilities. And the epic spells don't ask you whether you're "complelled" to do something or not, they just do things. Yes, I'm positively convinced that he can't, because his character sheet says that he can't and wanky backgrounds that writers assign to their pet NPCs do not matter when we can compare character sheets.

The book was designed without Epic being available. It stands to reason that if you were to allow Epic you should also redesign the gods to reflect this. Also I pointed out the lack of Epic Spellcasting like 4 posts ago.

FatR
2010-01-06, 11:10 AM
I don't have the book in front of me either, but come on, this guy found a way absorb Iuz, become a greater god in a matter of minutes, escape Ravenloft, enter Sigil (!!!!) which is basically a win against the Lady of Pain. All those acheivements are unprecedented and likily never happen again. The thought that he doesn't have spells that far exceed mortals' is rediculous.
Whatever you think is ridiculous does not matter. Either we're comparing canonical statblocks and RAW abilities, or we're in the realm of pure GM Fiat (like the writers who made Vecna uber were), and personal preferences. And while, for example, my personal preferences say, that you any PC should register as a significant threat on gods' radars by level 20 and have 50/50 or better chances of victory against a lone god outside of its domain, if a campaign ever moves to level 21+ (and, well, in my games this is pretty much true), I don't try to pass them as canonical.


There was one level 60 NPC, Rowan Blackwood (cleric20/wizard20/ranger20) that tried to take on the Lady and it didn't go well for him. The Lady isn't even a god (ummm debatable) and he got pwn'ed like no other.
The Lady > gods.

Samb
2010-01-06, 11:11 AM
No, they don't have epic spellcasting. We have their statblocks, after all, and can say for sure. No, you can't ignore the existence of epic spellcasting, while not ignoring the existence of salient divine abilities. And the epic spells don't ask you whether you're "complelled" to do something or not, they just do things. Yes, I'm positively convinced that he can't, because his character sheet says that he can't and wanky backgrounds that writers assign to their pet NPCs do not matter when we can compare character sheets.

So your plan is to make a spell that will kill him, and you will make another spell to make you undetectable?

You do know that magic is one of Vecna's domains right? So are secrets? So he would detect your actions automatically before you even get either spell completed. In fact, he doesn't even need epic spells to own you.

FatR
2010-01-06, 11:13 AM
The book was designed without Epic being available. It stands to reason that if you were to allow Epic you should also redesign the gods to reflect this. Also I pointed out the lack of Epic Spellcasting like 4 posts ago.
"Shoulds" don't matter, because everyone has different "should". By canon and RAW (and RAI, I believe, as gods weren't ever updated with epic spellcasting), gods do not have epic spellcasting and epic spellcasting > divine abilities. If you don't like this, that's your personal preference, just like my preference that both need to be killed with fire.

FatR
2010-01-06, 11:19 AM
So your plan is to make a spell that will kill him, and you will make another spell to make you undetectable?

You do know that magic is one of Vecna's domains right? So are secrets? So he would detect your actions automatically before you even get either spell completed. In fact, he doesn't even need epic spells to own you.
No. Vecna has:
"Portfolio sense: Vecna can sense the discovery, recording or sharing of any secret that affects at least five hundred people"

That's all (Know Secrets requires a visual contact). And in fact, that's lamer than I thought. An epic spellcaster doesn't even need a nondetection spell to off him.

Samb
2010-01-06, 11:45 AM
"Shoulds" don't matter, because everyone has different "should". By canon and RAW (and RAI, I believe, as gods weren't ever updated with epic spellcasting), gods do not have epic spellcasting and epic spellcasting > divine abilities. If you don't like this, that's your personal preference, just like my preference that both need to be killed with fire.

Hmm so your whole defense is that because divine rules came out before epic rules, then all the level gods have after 20 don't really count? I guess I can't argue with that "logic".

Samb
2010-01-06, 11:51 AM
No. Vecna has:
"Portfolio sense: Vecna can sense the discovery, recording or sharing of any secret that affects at least five hundred people"

That's all (Know Secrets requires a visual contact). And in fact, that's lamer than I thought. An epic spellcaster doesn't even need a nondetection spell to off him.

Ummm your quote just proved that he can detect you. You working in secret that would affect over 500 people. Nothing in your own quote even says you need visual contact (or you forgot to include it).

SoC175
2010-01-06, 12:17 PM
AMF + grapple?
AMF + hider?

(I think there may be magic ways around AMF but your DM has to know them :P) Unfortunately that only quickens Vecna's victory as he now don't need to waste an action to put up an AMF himself. Because being a deity he gets to just ignore the AMF while it's negating the last small chances for mortal success against him :smallbiggrin:

No. Vecna has:
"Portfolio sense: Vecna can sense the discovery, recording or sharing of any secret that affects at least five hundred people"

That's all (Know Secrets requires a visual contact). And in fact, that's lamer than I thought. An epic spellcaster doesn't even need a nondetection spell to off him. And a spell able to affect dieties in such a way affects at least 500 people (aka all worshippers of the deity)

FatR
2010-01-06, 12:32 PM
Hmm so your whole defense is that because divine rules came out before epic rules, then all the level gods have after 20 don't really count? I guess I can't argue with that "logic".
So, your whole argument is that a particular set divine rules - one that gives deities by far the greatest mechanical power they ever had in any iteration of DnD, by the way - should be retconned to suit your weird preferences, even though WotC did not see fit to update them, or to say that that they definitely should be updated? And of course you can't argue, you're trying to discredit my logic precisely because your argument is not a valid argument.

FatR
2010-01-06, 12:35 PM
And a spell able to affect dieties in such a way affects at least 500 people (aka all worshippers of the deity)
Except, the only thing a PC need to slip below Vecna's radar - even assuming that spell research counts as "discovery, recoring and sharing" is to say to his butler something like: "Hey, I just had a great idea I wanted to share - why not to kill Vecna with such-and-such spell".

Samb
2010-01-06, 12:41 PM
Except, the only thing a PC need to slip below Vecna's radar - even assuming that spell research counts as "discovery, recoring and sharing" is to say to his butler something like: "Hey, I just had a great idea I wanted to share - why not to kill Vecna with such-and-such spell".

Even without the secret domain he could still detect you with magic domain. Secret domain just ensures that there is no secrets from him period, if you have a big enough secret Vecna will know of it.

"only thing a PC need to slip below Vecna's radar"
Pray tell how would do this against a god of magic and secrets? You make it sound oh so easy. Will you make a spell to do that thus falling into both domains?

Why did you even quote the book, just to shoot your own argument in the foot?

drevil
2010-01-06, 03:24 PM
Where can I find stats/info about:
- Lady of Pain ?
- Rowan Blackwood (cleric20/wizard20/ranger20) ?

Lets assume I am wielding Sword of Kas, Eye and Hand of Vecna.
Still, I dont see how I am anywhere close to hurt Vecna.

The min/max-challenge:
Make a lvl 30 character able to kill Vecna.

I really hate Vecna.

Xenogears
2010-01-06, 04:33 PM
Where can I find stats/info about:
- Lady of Pain ?
- Rowan Blackwood (cleric20/wizard20/ranger20) ?

Lets assume I am wielding Sword of Kas, Eye and Hand of Vecna.
Still, I dont see how I am anywhere close to hurt Vecna.

The min/max-challenge:
Make a lvl 30 character able to kill Vecna.

I really hate Vecna.

The Lady of Pain does not and will not ever have stats. She is basically pure DM Fiat given form.

Samb
2010-01-06, 04:43 PM
Where can I find stats/info about:
- Lady of Pain ?
- Rowan Blackwood (cleric20/wizard20/ranger20) ?

Lets assume I am wielding Sword of Kas, Eye and Hand of Vecna.
Still, I dont see how I am anywhere close to hurt Vecna.

The min/max-challenge:
Make a lvl 30 character able to kill Vecna.

I really hate Vecna.
Don't worry about Darkwood, he is stuck in a 500 year cycle of birth, rise to power, insanity, and trapped in an artifact (originally used to kill the Lady) that that knows it will happen again and again, and most likely insanity again.

The flavor for the 3 artifacts is that you only need the hand, so you can keep your eye, and the sword, then go and kill Vecna..... The sword gave you resistance and bonuses against Vecna's spells and powers, and dealt more damage to him. At least that how it was done in Die! Vecna, Die! Granted it was in Sigil, and Vecna had his powers suppressed since he was in a battle of wills with the Lady, and basically only as powerful a his avatar.

On the off chance that you fail to beat him an army of demigods came and killed him...... You sure your PC doesn't have a divine spark?

Lysander
2010-01-06, 04:46 PM
Here's one way to do it. Maybe.

Become a celestial. Ascend the layers of Mount Celestia until you reach the top and merge with the plane. Have a high enough diplomacy modifier so that when you merge you can convince the plane to oppose the deity you want to destroy and turn all the forces of lawful good against them.

Elfin
2010-01-06, 04:54 PM
Might I second the spell Ice Assassin, from Frostburn?
It's a 9th-level spell that creates an exact duplicate of someone; create an Ice Assassin of whatever god you want to kill and watch the fireworks.
Erm, iceworks.

Samb
2010-01-06, 04:58 PM
Here's how it works since someone asked earlier.

Pun-Pun has the Ice Assassin spell as a spell-like ability at-will. He uses it to copy an arbitrarily high number of gods. Pun-Pun then commands a god clone to make him a proxy. This makes Pun-Pun a rank 1 demigod. Pun-Pun then makes another creature (Lokiyn, the originator of the trick, used squirrels) a proxy. This lowers Pun-Pun to divine rank 0. Pun-Pun then orders another ice assassin god to make him a proxy. At divine rank 1 again, Pun-Pun invests another squirrel with a divine rank. Pun-Pun repeats this process a NI number of times.

Then, he uses a standard action to recall each divine rank back from the squirrels. A NI number of squirrels with 1 divine rank invested equals a NI number of divine ranks recalled and gained by Pun-Pun. This gives Pun-Pun a NI divine rank.

Since Salient Divine Abilities are based on divine rank, Pun-Pun has a NI number of salient divine abilities. (That is at least all of the ones in the book and includes the awesome Alter Reality.)

SoC175
2010-01-06, 05:07 PM
Yet this only works if you assume that a divine rank is a characteristic that can just be created willy nilly. DDG on the other hand, while it doesn't directly forbid it, goes otherwise into great detail on how precious and rare divine ranks are. Other sources (e.g. the Lich Queen spamming tens of thousand of wish spells during centuries just to try to extract an unguarded already existing divine rank instead of just even thinking about trying to actually create a new one also goes in that direction)

A more reasonable assumption would be that the ice assassin would become a epic level mortal copy of the deity

Lysander
2010-01-06, 05:09 PM
Might I second the spell Ice Assassin, from Frostburn?
It's a 9th-level spell that creates an exact duplicate of someone; create an Ice Assassin of whatever god you want to kill and watch the fireworks.
Erm, iceworks.

One question. How are you going to get a body part from a god? Another question. The spell takes 8 hours to cast? How are you, with your stolen deity hair, going to stay alive that long?

Optimystik
2010-01-06, 05:12 PM
One question. How are you going to get a body part from a god?

Hand of Vecna :smalltongue:

Dusk Eclipse
2010-01-06, 05:18 PM
Where can I get the info on the Lady of Pain?, I know she is from planescape which was a setting on 2ed, but I started playing 3.5.

Lysander
2010-01-06, 05:18 PM
Hand of Vecna :smalltongue:

Is the hand of Vecna a major artifact? Using it as a spell component would destroy it, which would run afoul of this:


Unlike all other magic items, major artifacts are not easily destroyed. Each should have only a single, specific means of destruction.

Plus, the hand was severed before he reached divinity right? It might create a copy of him before it was taken.

Optimystik
2010-01-06, 05:20 PM
Is the hand of Vecna a major artifact? Using it as a spell component would destroy it, which would run afoul of this:

So it works as a component, but isn't destroyed. Remember the general rule - if a "can" and "can't" butt heads, "can't" wins unless "can" is more specific.

Lysander
2010-01-06, 05:23 PM
So it works as a component, but isn't destroyed. Remember the general rule - if a "can" and "can't" butt heads, "can't" wins unless "can" is more specific.

But material components are consumed. I don't think the spell would let you use the hand as a focus instead. If the hand can't be consumed by the spell, the spell won't work.

Thalnawr
2010-01-06, 05:28 PM
But material components are consumed. I don't think the spell would let you use the hand as a focus instead. If the hand can't be consumed by the spell, the spell won't work.
Take some fingernail clippings then?

Xenogears
2010-01-06, 05:30 PM
Where can I get the info on the Lady of Pain?, I know she is from planescape which was a setting on 2ed, but I started playing 3.5.

Look up Sigil?

hamishspence
2010-01-06, 05:32 PM
Supposedly, components that are not specified as costing money must RAW be assumed to be present in the pouch.

Including such things as deity hairs. Or bone shavings, in Vecna's case.

Xenogears
2010-01-06, 05:45 PM
Yet this only works if you assume that a divine rank is a characteristic that can just be created willy nilly. DDG on the other hand, while it doesn't directly forbid it, goes otherwise into great detail on how precious and rare divine ranks are. Other sources (e.g. the Lich Queen spamming tens of thousand of wish spells during centuries just to try to extract an unguarded already existing divine rank instead of just even thinking about trying to actually create a new one also goes in that direction)

A more reasonable assumption would be that the ice assassin would become a epic level mortal copy of the deity

Dieties and Demigods presents Divine Ranks being rare as one possible setting type. It never says it is the default setting type however. In some settings the only way to become a god is for the high god (I believe they used Zeus as an example) to approve it. In some settings you must kill a god/ steal their Divine Ranks. In some settings divine ranks are relatively easy to get for someone strong enough.

The Lich-Queen example is suggestive however.

Emmerask
2010-01-06, 05:55 PM
Supposedly, components that are not specified as costing money must RAW be assumed to be present in the pouch.

Including such things as deity hairs. Or bone shavings, in Vecna's case.

Then we must also assume that the wizard canīt move ever because of his pouch weight and it also takes a week to search the contents of the pouch to cast anything :smallwink:

Samb
2010-01-06, 07:10 PM
Hmmm since someone brought up epic spells, the description of epic spells says: "An epic spell developed by an arcane spellcaster is arcane, and an epic spell developed by a divine spellcaster is divine."

If divine spells are granted by the gods, then for all intents and purposes, gods gain epic divine spells as spell like abilities, since they can use any spell they grant as a SLA (if it is in there domain).

So no, they don't have any epic spell slots, they have them as SLAs that they can use as many times a day as they want.

grautry
2010-01-06, 08:34 PM
If divine spells are granted by the gods, then for all intents and purposes, gods gain epic divine spells as spell like abilities, since they can use any spell they grant as a SLA (if it is in there domain).

Right. Except that domains don't have epic spells.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-07, 12:06 AM
One question. How are you going to get a body part from a god? Another question. The spell takes 8 hours to cast? How are you, with your stolen deity hair, going to stay alive that long?That's why Pun Pun has it as an SLA. If not Pun Pun, a Dweomerkeeper can get it as an SU ability.

Optimystik
2010-01-07, 12:18 AM
Then we must also assume that the wizard canīt move ever because of his pouch weight and it also takes a week to search the contents of the pouch to cast anything :smallwink:

How much weight does a hair take up?

And the spell takes 8 hours to cast, how much time do you need to search a pouch anyway?

SoC175
2010-01-07, 02:16 AM
Hand of Vecna :smalltongue: Which is actually a part of the mortal Vecna, not the divine Vecna.

hamishspence
2010-01-07, 03:39 AM
If divine spells are granted by the gods, then for all intents and purposes, gods gain epic divine spells as spell like abilities, since they can use any spell they grant as a SLA (if it is in there domain).

So no, they don't have any epic spell slots, they have them as SLAs that they can use as many times a day as they want.



Only domain spells- epic divine spells are not domain spells- so that's out.

drevil
2010-01-07, 04:54 AM
Regarding Sword of Kas, Hand and Eye of Vecna:




The flavor for the 3 artifacts is that you only need the hand, so you can keep your eye, and the sword, then go and kill Vecna..... The sword gave you resistance and bonuses against Vecna's spells and powers, and dealt more damage to him. At least that how it was done in Die! Vecna, Die!


But these effects are not mentioned in DMG, right?
Did Vecna die in "Die! Vecna, Die!"


You sure your PC doesn't have a divine spark?

I just decided that my PC have a divine spark. I rewrote his background history :smallsmile:

Is Lady of Pain some kind of an overdeity? Since she dont have any stats?
I thought Ao was the only overdeity. The only one without the stats.
I thought Ao = DM.

So far, the best Vecna-killing tactic seems to be using Orbs to deal Sonic damage.

Xenogears
2010-01-07, 09:06 AM
Regarding Sword of Kas, Hand and Eye of Vecna:



But these effects are not mentioned in DMG, right?
Did Vecna die in "Die! Vecna, Die!"



I just decided that my PC have a divine spark. I rewrote his background history :smallsmile:

Is Lady of Pain some kind of an overdeity? Since she dont have any stats?
I thought Ao was the only overdeity. The only one without the stats.
I thought Ao = DM.

So far, the best Vecna-killing tactic seems to be using Orbs to deal Sonic damage.

Lady of Pain is not/might not be an overdiety (also IIRC she's from a different setting than Ao.) She is written in such a way that no one knows what she is, where she is from, what she can do (we know a couple things but not the limits of her/his/its power), If she is in fact a girl or something else, wether or not she is divine, what her goals are, etc.

She is supposed to be an unknown and unknowable entity. All we really know about her is that she is atleast as powerful as gods, she enforces peace in Sigil by magically banishing people ("Mazing") that use violence, and she tries to stop people from worshipping her.

Emmerask
2010-01-07, 10:18 AM
How much weight does a hair take up?

And the spell takes 8 hours to cast, how much time do you need to search a pouch anyway?

Well you realize that its not one hair from one person.
The person I quoted said that every material that does not cost money and can be used in a spell is present in the pouch so you have one hair from every being that lived and lives in your pouch (So you may cast this spell for every being possible) and that is just the hair basically you carry arround whole spare bodies from every person that lived and has ever lived with you using the logic I quoted :smallwink:

and now tell me how long does it take to go through one billion hairs and find the right hair in there :smallbiggrin: but hair isnīt the only thing in there by that logic your spell pouch is basically itīs own demi plane with trillions of objects in it ^^
spell casting time also does not cover finding the right material under these circumstances I believe :smallwink:

So what all this rambling comes down to in the end is just to show that no you donīt have every spellcomponent with you even if it does not cost anything if its something mundane and unspecific like a pinch of sand yes no problem you have that if itīs something like a hair from a specific being NO YOU DONīt :smallwink:

Optimystik
2010-01-07, 10:28 AM
But material components are consumed. I don't think the spell would let you use the hand as a focus instead. If the hand can't be consumed by the spell, the spell won't work.

Why not? The description of material components doesn't say "if this cannot be consumed, the spell fails."

You have a body part, you cast the spell, the spell looks for your possession of the part and finds it, the spell resolves.

Or just take Ignore Material Components.