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Trixie
2009-12-31, 12:46 PM
Well... Lately, in most of the Tier threads here, there seems to be consensus that Rogue is much stronger class than Ninja. Why, exactly? :smallconfused:

I never played Rogue, but I've played Ninja once and from what I remember they are just reflavored Rogues with a few abilities making up for the lack of flanking Sneak Attack.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-31, 12:48 PM
The Ninja is, arguably, more stealthy and has better defenses - but the Rogue can contribute more in combat by dishing out more damage, more often.

The Ninja has to waste a Ki power point to even deal Sudden Strike in a lot of cases. The Rogue just needs to get the Fighter on the other side of an enemy, and he can deal a full attack's worth - which the Ninja finds difficult as well.

Plus, the Rogue has Use Magic Device. Which, as anyone can tell you, is godly.

Draz74
2009-12-31, 12:51 PM
Well... Lately, in most of the Tier threads here, there seems to be consensus that Rogue is much stronger class than Ninja. Why, exactly? :smallconfused:

I never played Rogue, but I've played Ninja once and from what I remember they are just reflavored Rogues with a few abilities making up for the lack of flanking Sneak Attack.

Rogue isn't much stronger than Ninja. They're both considered Tier 4, I think.

But yeah, Rogue is better. Mostly because it gets 2 more skill points, which is a big deal when you're supposed to be a skillmonkey. (And I don't remember -- does Ninja even get UMD?)

But also because the Ninja's extra class features just really aren't that great to make up for losing flanking sneak attack. For things like Ghost Step, the number of uses/day is just too low considering the Ninja pretty much won't be doing anything impressive in combat without using it every round. The Ninja is also more MAD -- to make up for the Rogue's light armor with its WIS to AC requires a pretty good WIS score.

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-31, 01:06 PM
I don't own Complete Adventurer anymore, but i though Ninja had Light Armor proficiency?

and admittedly yes, Rogue is better, the Ninja has some decent abilities. Granted, Rogue is still better, but if you want to play the stealthy one hit wonder, play ninja.

Pluto
2009-12-31, 03:54 PM
The Rogue has:

Use Magic Device

Better social skills if I remember this right.

Use Magic Device

More skill points

Use Magic Device

And a much better bonus damage mechanic.

(And there are more ways for the Rogue to add Sneak Attack to damage against Undead, Constructs, etc. than the Ninja: alternate class features and Use Magic Device being the most common.)

OverdrivePrime
2009-12-31, 04:17 PM
The #1 reason why no one I know plays a ninja: Two levels of barbarian renders one almost completely immune to ninjas. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm#uncannyDodge)

It takes at least 5 levels of barbarian (and continued barbarian or rogue levels from then on) to be immune to rogue sneak attacks. :smallwink:

Asbestos
2009-12-31, 04:57 PM
That and Rogues are SAD (Dexterity) while Ninjas are MAD (Dexterity for skills/attack [after you take the Weapon Finesse tax) and Wisdom for AC/Ki)

Curmudgeon
2009-12-31, 05:12 PM
That and Rogues are SAD (Dexterity)
Huh? Nowhere close. Use Magic Device, Bluff, Gather Information, and Disguise are based on Charisma. Search and Disable Device are based on Intelligence. Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive are based on Wisdom. Strength and Constitution are the only possible dump stats for Rogues.

Very MAD.

Yuki Akuma
2009-12-31, 05:16 PM
You don't actually need ability score modifiers for skills - you have enough skill points that they're a non-issue by level four.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-31, 05:19 PM
Huh? Nowhere close. Use Magic Device, Bluff, Gather Information, and Disguise are based on Charisma. Search and Disable Device are based on Intelligence. Spot, Listen, and Sense Motive are based on Wisdom. Strength and Constitution are the only possible dump stats for Rogues.

Very MAD.Except that by level 5 your mod on, say, Search, is going to be +10 just from ranks and a masterwork tool. The difference between a 14 and an 8 Int is important, but not enough to make it worth spending points on it just for the skill. Especially since Rogues have enough skill points to grab synergies, will take Masterwork tools, and generally can hit whatever DC they need.

noiadodh
2009-12-31, 05:31 PM
for a rogue CON > INT or the opposite?

Curmudgeon
2009-12-31, 05:42 PM
The difference between a 14 and an 8 Int is important, but not enough to make it worth spending points on it just for the skill. Especially since Rogues have enough skill points
I stopped you right there, because Rogues never have enough skill points. I play Rogues a lot, and I always start with my highest score in INT, for the extra skill points. The difference between a 14 and an 8 INT is 12 skill points just on your first level, or 3 more skills you can be effective in. What can you do with 3 skills? How about Spot the spell component pouch on an enemy, Tumble at full speed up to them, and remove it via Sleight of Hand? But then you're stuck in a bad place -- unless you've got more skills, like enough Sleight of Hand skill to grab that pouch as a free action, then you can Tumble away to some cover and Hide.

Prepared casters can focus on the things they think they'll need for the day. Rogues can't do that; they have to have enough skills to do everything all the time. (Or assume they'll be useless some of the time, and that's just flat out unacceptable.)

AirGuitarGod32
2009-12-31, 05:46 PM
I stopped you right there, because Rogues never have enough skill points. I play Rogues a lot, and I always start with my highest score in INT, for the extra skill points. The difference between a 14 and an 8 INT is 12 skill points just on your first level, or 3 more skills you can be effective in. What can you do with 3 skills? How about Spot the spell component pouch on an enemy, Tumble at full speed up to them, and remove it via Sleight of Hand? But then you're stuck in a bad place -- unless you've got more skills, like enough Sleight of Hand skill to grab that pouch as a free action, then you can Tumble away to some cover and Hide.

Prepared casters can focus on the things they think they'll need for the day. Rogues can't do that; they have to have enough skills to do everything all the time. (Or assume they'll be useless some of the time, and that's just flat out unacceptable.)

and thats one of two things in my humble opinion that 4e did right.

sure, they removed any complexity that 3.5e had, they may have ruined the multiclass system, and sure, they made Vorpal not a one-hit wonder...

but they fixed the balance between wizard and fighter and they complressed the skill list.

I HATE 4e, and I wish 3.5 lived on, but i like those two simple things.

Asbestos
2009-12-31, 05:51 PM
I stopped you right there, because Rogues never have enough skill points. I play Rogues a lot, and I always start with my highest score in INT, for the extra skill points. The difference between a 14 and an 8 INT is 12 skill points just on your first level, or 3 more skills you can be effective in. What can you do with 3 skills? How about Spot the spell component pouch on an enemy, Tumble at full speed up to them, and remove it via Sleight of Hand? But then you're stuck in a bad place -- unless you've got more skills, like enough Sleight of Hand skill to grab that pouch as a free action, then you can Tumble away to some cover and Hide.

Prepared casters can focus on the things they think they'll need for the day. Rogues can't do that; they have to have enough skills to do everything all the time. (Or assume they'll be useless some of the time, and that's just flat out unacceptable.)

Well, if you're so focused on being a skill monkey rather than a rogue (aka, Sneak Attacking chumps) then you might be better off being a Factotum.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-31, 05:55 PM
Well, if you're so focused on being a skill monkey rather than a rogue (aka, Sneak Attacking chumps)
Being a Rogue is both. You get to use all those skills, and you get to deal out a lot of damage in the right situations. You don't have to choose just one thing.

Asbestos
2009-12-31, 05:59 PM
Being a Rogue is both. You get to use all those skills, and you get to deal out a lot of damage in the right situations. You don't have to choose just one thing.

But if you're using Int as your primary stat you are gimping your attack capabilities and the rogue that decided that his was a SAD class with Dexterity as the primary skill is going to make you're street-scholar look like a chump in combat with a higher attack bonus and a higher AC (as well as natural bonuses to the important 'combat' skills of a rogue such as Hide/Move Silently and Tumble)

Summary: Non-Tier 1 classes can't be good at everything. Be good at what you are meant to be good at and be ok at what you aren't meant to be good at. If you want to be a CHA-heavy skill monkey, be a bard, if you want to be Dex-heavy, be a rogue, if you want to be a skill ninja be a Factotum.

JaronK
2009-12-31, 06:11 PM
Why the Rogue is a Tier above Ninjas:

Skills: Rogues have access to more powerful skills (IIRC Ninjas lack both Diplomacy and UMD). Rogues have 8+Int skills to the Ninja's 6. Ninjas have greater MAD issues (Rogues have this too, but not as bad)... more on that later, but the point is a Ninja will likely have a lower Int score, further compounding the reduced skills. Also, Rogues have access to Skill Mastery. Rogues are clearly ahead here.

Defenses: Rogues can wear Light Armor vs the Ninja's Wis to AC with bonuses as they level. The Wis to AC thing gives Ninjas a nasty case of MAD, while a Rogue in Light Armor can easily have more AC from the armor than the Ninja will get from Wis. Consider that a Mithral Chain Shirt, Masterwork Dastanas, and a Mithral Chahar-aina gives +6 AC without any armor check penalty for the Rogue. That's before even applying magical bonuses... and the Rogue can also gain boosts from armor (I'm a fan of Muffling Shadowsilk Leather Armor... two less AC than the above combo, but it's actually cheaper and gives +4 Move Silently and +2 Hide, still before magic). Ninjas also get an effective +2 to will saves, but Rogues get Evasion way before Ninjas do and get Uncanny Dodge. They each have a few other abilities too. Generally, this area is pretty close, but for the Ninja to get close to the Rogue he needs MAD.

MAD: As stated earlier, the Ninja has the same requirements as the Rogue, but adds a need for Wisdom. Since the Rogue already needed Int (for skills), Dex (likely for hit modifiers, certainly for lots of skills, also AC and Reflex Saves), and Con (with D6 HD on a class designed to get in close, you need all the HP you can get) this extra need for stats really hurts. Thus, a ninja will likely have lower Int, Dex, and Con to make up for his need for more Wis.

Offense: Sneak Attack is strictly better than Sudden Strike, since it works with flanking too. While the Ninja has Ki powers, they get very few per day, and they don't work against enemies who can see invisible. This means that a Ninja has to generally work harder (either by securing more magic items, adjusting tactics, etc) to deliver his damage. Also, MAD likely reduces his to hit numbers a bit. While Poison Use is fun, without a method of generating poison it's too expensive to really use, and if you did have a way to generate it you'd take Master of Poisons anyway. The Rogue meanwhile has a few very nice special abilities available. Both classes suffer from immune enemies, so it's a wash there. In the end, the Rogue is better here too.

At the end of the day, the Ninja is just a worse Rogue, and you could do the ninja shtick much better with a Rogue that you just called a ninja. Of course, Swordsages do the ninja thing even better still. I'm a fan of Rogue 2/Swordsage X as a ninja build, since it really does the job well. Factotums can also do the ninja thing quite well, better than either Rogues or Ninjas.

Ninjas are actually shockingly close to Experts in their abilities, since Experts lack MAD (like the Rogue) and can make use of UMD, Diplomacy, and Iajuitsu Focus. Both classes need help from the DM to be effective, the Ninja needing items that let him hurt immune enemies while the Expert needing UMDable items to be effective.

JaronK

Curmudgeon
2009-12-31, 06:13 PM
But if you're using Int as your primary stat you are gimping your attack capabilities
That's short-sighted thinking, and you've got to really think things through to make a good Rogue. Add Knowledge Devotion and you get to make that INT give you both attack and damage boosts -- plus the usual benefit of knowing the vulnerabilities that the right Knowledge check will give you.

Draz74
2009-12-31, 06:29 PM
That's short-sighted thinking, and you've got to really think things through to make a good Rogue. Add Knowledge Devotion and you get to make that INT give you both attack and damage boosts -- plus the usual benefit of knowing the vulnerabilities that the right Knowledge check will give you.

Knowledge Devotion-based Rogue? Interesting, I don't think I've heard of this build before. Of course it's perfectly sound in a campaign where most of your opponents are Humanoid ... but otherwise, wouldn't the lack of Knowledge (nature, planes, religion, arcana, dungeoneering) as a class skill be a critical flaw in the build? (Knowledge Devotion gains you one of those as a class skill, but not the others.)

JaronK
2009-12-31, 06:31 PM
Unfortunately, Rogues don't actually have most Knowledge skills as class skills. So a KD based Rogue really doesn't work. I agree that Rogues should have a high Int (to make use of their skills, whenever I play a Rogue I always need more skills) but I also agree that this hurts your combat ability. That's why Rogues aren't stronger... they can't do all the things they're supposed to do (be deadly killers in combat and great skillmonkeys outside of combat).

JaronK

Asbestos
2009-12-31, 06:39 PM
That's short-sighted thinking, and you've got to really think things through to make a good Rogue. Add Knowledge Devotion and you get to make that INT give you both attack and damage boosts -- plus the usual benefit of knowing the vulnerabilities that the right Knowledge check will give you.
Sure, cause Knowledge Devotion is totally like Weapon Finesse but for INT. Unless you waste skill points by getting ranks in Knowledge (Nature, Religion, Planes, Dungeoneering, and Arcana), none of which are rogue class skills and KD only lets you grab one as a class skill, AND you either roll amazing or you waste even more skill points or gp to increase your various skill checks so that you can get a worthwhile bonus to Attack/Damage in combat... unless you do all that the Rogue that took Weapon Finesse and made Dex their primary stat is going to be better than you in combat every time, always, in terms of AC and to-hit.

JaronK
2009-12-31, 06:53 PM
Really, the Knowledge Devotion skill monkey thing only works for Factotums, and even then the number of skill points required to make that work hurts a lot, making you unable to function as a proper skillmonkey (though you could still make a decent scout).

JaronK

Pluto
2009-12-31, 06:58 PM
Knowledge Devotion-based Rogue? Interesting, I don't think I've heard of this build before. Of course it's perfectly sound in a campaign where most of your opponents are Humanoid ... but otherwise, wouldn't the lack of Knowledge (nature, planes, religion, arcana, dungeoneering) as a class skill be a critical flaw in the build? (Knowledge Devotion gains you one of those as a class skill, but not the others.)

I can't remember...
Does Rilkan Rogue add those skills to the Rogue list?

JaronK
2009-12-31, 08:08 PM
IIRC, it only adds Bardic Knowledge instead of Trapsense. Not sure on that though.

JaronK

Demons_eye
2009-12-31, 08:32 PM
I can't remember...
Does Rilkan Rogue add those skills to the Rogue list?

The checks are treated as trained but still cross class. I fix this with human paragon and able learner.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-31, 08:50 PM
Really, the Knowledge Devotion skill monkey thing only works for Factotums, and even then the number of skill points required to make that work hurts a lot, making you unable to function as a proper skillmonkey (though you could still make a decent scout).

JaronK
Perhaps you're overlooking the Education feat, which makes all Knowledge skills class skills for all your classes. And then there's Skill Mastery and Savvy Rogue, so you can "take 12" on all your mastered skills without rolling.

It doesn't just work for Factotums, though it does take until about level 12 to make this work effectively as a Rogue.

Draz74
2009-12-31, 08:52 PM
Ah, Education. I forget it since my last DM didn't allow it ...

So yeah. That sounds fun and feasible if not optimal.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-31, 09:31 PM
Ah, Education. I forget it since my last DM didn't allow it ...

So yeah. That sounds fun and feasible if not optimal.
I'm not sure how to do much better with Knowledge Devotion. There aren't a lot of classes that get 8 + INT mod skill points. You can pick Silvanesti Elf as your race, and get bonuses to both DEX and INT. Or you could take a dip into Cloistered Cleric and get the Knowledge domain (plus others) that way, and access to Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) at your 3rd CC level. Then add Sacred Outlaw (from Dragon # 357) to let your Cleric and Rogue levels stack for sneak attack progression. +20 on demand to any skill check can get you to the maximum +5 Knowledge Devotion bonus pretty quickly.

JaronK
2009-12-31, 10:16 PM
Perhaps you're overlooking the Education feat, which makes all Knowledge skills class skills for all your classes. And then there's Skill Mastery and Savvy Rogue, so you can "take 12" on all your mastered skills without rolling.

It doesn't just work for Factotums, though it does take until about level 12 to make this work effectively as a Rogue.

Fair enough, I had forgotten Education. Still, I'm not sure it's a good trick... you sack a lot of skill points for a small boost to damage and to hit. Cloistered Cleric gets you a lot more out of it, since they can use Persistant Lore of the Gods and thus not use nearly as many skill points.

JaronK

Curmudgeon
2009-12-31, 10:25 PM
Fair enough, I had forgotten Education. Still, I'm not sure it's a good trick... you sack a lot of skill points for a small boost to damage and to hit.
You consider +5 a small bonus? I don't, since from level 12 on the Rogue with Knowledge Devotion has a better chance of hitting things than full BAB classes. The necessary first step to doing sneak attack damage is hitting, after all.

Draz74
2009-12-31, 10:39 PM
I'm not sure how to do much better with Knowledge Devotion.

Yeah, once you start throwing in Cloistered Cleric it's pretty optimal. Mainly what I had in mind with the "optimal" comment was going with a Cloistered Cleric, Factotum, or Archivist instead of Rogue.

Soranar
2009-12-31, 10:49 PM
There are simpler ways around this

the feat shadow blade from ToB let's you add your DEX bonus to damage while using shadowhand weapons (kukri, sai, siangham, spiked chain, unarmed attacks) all you need are shadow hand stances (one grants you concealment when you're not attacking,another gives you 2d6 more sneak attacks,another gives you airwalk...)

You can waste 2 feats to get the prerequisites or just dip into swordsage. Sure you waste sneak attack levels but you gain them back with the sneak damage stance anyway.

Personally I find light armors reduce your effectiveness at higher levels (when they prevent you the use of your full DEX bonus to AC). I usually dip a level into monk and take kung-fu genius to add my INT bonus to AC too.

Rogues are always MAD and feat starved unless you make a specific build that disregards their other uses. The problem with ninjas is that they are bad at everything and they don't get great multiclass feats like the rogue. Daring Outlaw makes you a full BAB rogue (with fewer skillpoints), Sacred Outlaw makes you a spellcaster, ascetic rogue makes you a sneak attack machine with unarmed strikes. And Rogues get way more useful races to use too (with favored classes Rogue) for multiclassing.

The only reason I'd use a ninja is if I intended to make a ranged build and stacked it with fighter feats (specialization) for whatever reason. Otherwise a swordsage is just better in every way.