Building a better God

[Hyfigh]

I've always been fond of the ideal of Deities playing a more significant role in my D&D universes. Many people play them where-in only their thought is present; but I prefer something more... Physical.

Reviewing the various god's that they've statted out in the Dieties & Demigods book I often find them lacking. Most of them have a high quantity of outsider HD, which is fine. The problem comes from the character level builds. They all seem to be 20 levels in a couple random classes. Sure, the classes often match their overall ideal; but why no Prestige Classes?

It hit me that it's likely that the majority of the Deities - being as they were likely just popped into existance rather than having to progress - didn't really need to progress class levels and were OK without having to justify being 20 Fighter/20 Barbarian.

So now, to the point. Vecna is one of my favorites. Not only is the idea of an extremely evil Lich-God appealing to me in some sick fashion; he had to ascend unlike the majority of the rest of the Pantheon. What this means is that, more than any others, he needed to be optimized. Sadly, Deities & Demigods isn't an open source so I can't provide his build breakdown but I will say that he's 20 Wizard/20 Cleric.

What I'm looking for is this: building an optimized Vecna to better reflect a build providing what it takes to make it to god-hood. I haven't been working on this for very long and am definitely looking for ideas. I kind of wanted to make it a build-challange.

So whats required? I'm looking for two builds. One that strictly deals with SRD and one that is open to all official sources.

The only build I've been dealign with so far is from the SRD.

Bascially I've designed something like Wizard 7/Loremaster 8/Archmage 5/Cloistered Cleric 10/Mystic Thuerge 10. Yea, yea "MT is a trap". Not in this case. I've got enough levels to make it work better than straight levels in each class. With this build Vecna's pushing out a Wizard CL of 30 and divine casting at CL 20. Both with the obvious 9th level spells, but also epic access for Arcane casting. I may decide to tone down the Loremaster by a level or two in order to reach epic Divine casting too. I'll be using 32 point buy and haven't figured his stats or feats yet. I imagine they will be straight forward though. As always, don't forget the Lich template to finish it off.

The challange. Build Vecna using either SRD only or all official sources (I promise I won't complain if you choose to make a build for both). Make him viable throughout his career because thats the only way he could make it to god-hood. Its a 32 point buy, 44 ECL but requires the Lich template with no buy-off. The Divine Rank isn't something that is a concern, but if you would like to be complete lets shoot for a DR 10. I'd like to avoid complete cheese and to stick true to the spirit of Vecna (so something like a Beholder Mage is out). Also, no infinite loops. He's not Pun-Pun.

[Tyndmyr]

He's sufficiently tricky that he survives regardless of build?

[Hyfigh]

He's sufficiently tricky that he survives regardless of build?

Heh, starting off as Wizard I'd believe it. I just think they could have, and should have, done better than 20/20 for his build. I mean really... He's technically not even epic casting, though he's more than epic level. 0.o

[hamishspence]

Prestige classes do appear for Faiths & Pantheons deities- such as Archmage, or Blackguard.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Wizard 3/Psion 10/Cleric 3/Cerebremancer 10/Mystic Theurge 7/Loremaster 7. Casting as a Wizard 20, Psion 20, and Cleric 17. A bit weak on the divine side, but he's a wizard god, after all.

Binder 1/Wizard 1/Shadowcaster 2/Ardent 1/Ur-Priest 2/Anima Mage 10/Mystic Theurge 8/Noctumancer 5/Cerebremancer 4/Binder 4/Ardent 2 (or something)

8th-level vestiges, 9th-level arcane/divine spells, 9th-level mystery, and 6th-level powers. With the appropriate feats, you can pick up a decent amount of meldshaping, truenaming, UMD, or whatever.

These aren't terribly optimized. Need to think of a trick Vecna would actually use.

EDIT: An idea, which revolves around the premise that the CArc/CWar rules concerning PrC prerequisites are specific to those books only...

Focused Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 10/Beguiler 1/Mindbender 1Ultimate Magus 10/Rainbow Servant 10/Malconvoker 5

Needs moar factotum, incantatrix, dweomerkeeper, IotSFV, etc. Still thinking.

[DabblerWizard]

Sadly, Deities & Demigods isn't an open source so I can't provide his build breakdown but I will say that he's 20 Wizard/20 Cleric.


As far as I've been taught through high school and college, you can "copy" any source of material as long as you properly cite it: you use MLA, APA, or Chicago citation rules, including in-text citation and a work cited.

I don't have deities and demigods, so I can't show you an example of a quote from that text, but here's one from the PHB 1, d&d 4.0, using APA style citation.

"Get ready—the Player’s Handbook contains everything you need to create a heroic character of your own!" (Collins, Heinsoo, & Wyatt, 2008, p. 4)

Collins, A., Heinsoo, R., and Wyatt, J. 2008. Dungeons and Dragons. Players Handbook: Arcane, Divine, and Martial Heroes (p. 4). Renton, WA: Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

You can easily find citation rules online.

[Debihuman]

Citation isn't the problem here. The forum rules expressly forbid the posting of non open gaming content. Deities and Demigods has no open content.




Posting Copyrighted Content
Posting any copyrighted material without permission is against the rules. Posts containing such content will be edited to remove that content. In particular, posts containing copyrighted material from game books that are not designated Open Gaming Content (OGC) will be edited to remove the copyrighted portions. As an example, mentioning a specific rule item or general mechanic, or explaining in general how it functions, does not violate this rule. However, posting an entire stat block for a monster would. OGC is published under the Open Gaming License. OGC may be reproduced in full, as per the terms of that license. Please keep in mind that material under the d20 License may not be OGC. When in doubt, refer to the primary source to see if there is a copy of the OGL included. Note that any content in the System Reference Document (SRD) can be reproduced as well.



You can certainly change any deity's stats to better fit your campaign. The Deities and Demigods book is useful if you want off-the-shelf deities. If you want more powerful deities you can follow the rules in page 26 to add epic classes as well. There's no reason you couldn't add prestige classes as well.

Debby

[Sstoopidtallkid]

40 levels? Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 10/Incantor 10/Dwomerkeeper 10/Geomancer 4. Advance Wizard over Cleric most of the time, you can still end up with 29/21 casting and all the Dwomerkeeper and Incantrix special abilities. Geomancer is basically filler, but it's decent filler. May want to switch it for something else, though.

[JeenLeen]

Should Vecna have the +LA for having become a lich? Maybe that LA was 'bought off' during ascension, though.

Of course, as the DM, you needn't worry about it, but I mention it in case you want a 'legal' build. Not sure if Lich abilities would be a bane or boon in this case.

I recommend going with the PrC that advance divine and arcane casting. Loremaster makes a lot of sense for Vecna to get the 'bardic knowledge'-like ability.
'Able Learner' would be a fitting fit for the god of secrets, as could Knowledge Devotion.

Perhaps Archivist instead of Cleric for the divine casting? Gathering knowledge instead of relying on an outside force, since it would have been an outside force before ascension. This also allows Vecna to have spells from non-cleric lists, and fits the collecting secret knowledge theme better. And having a supposedly evil diety cast Holy Word could confuse the party he's fighting, perhaps let him deceive them into working for him.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Yeah, I didn't even think of the Archivist. Do that instead of Cleric. Keep the Lich template, though, immortality is always useful.

[Hyfigh]

Good call on Archivist guys.


Yeah, I didn't even think of the Archivist. Do that instead of Cleric. Keep the Lich template, though, immortality is always useful.

For SRD the cloistered cleric is perfect. Especially to match his domains of Knowledge (gained from cloistered cleric), Magic, and Evil (gained from the two chosen Domains).

The Lich template is taken, yes, for the immortality.

[The Glyphstone]

You could go look on Dicefreaks if you want a truly 'godline' statblock, though that would break the 'official sources only' rule. It'd also be a CR of well over NINE THOUSAND, knowing the usual type of stuff they come up with.

[Tequila Sunrise]

You want a better god? Screw prestige and epic classes, those're for suckers. Step up, use your DM fiat like I did when I wrote Io -- the MAN'S GOD!!!


Io, the True Dragon
Io appears as the biggest dragon you’ve ever seen. I know I’ve said that about the last five dragons you’ve fought, but I promise I won’t say it again. It’s extra true this time. His scales, surprisingly enough, are flawless mythril plates of draconic perfection. How’re they different from Bahamut’s platinum scales and a silver’s silver scales? I dunno, they’re more shiny or something.
Really Colossal Dragon
Divine Rank: 25
Domains: Destruction, Luck, Trickery
Hit Dice: 60d12 + 1,920 (2,640)
I Go First: No, really, I have Supreme Initiative (+16)
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares), fly 300 ft. good (60 squares), swim 60 ft. (12 squares), burrow 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 131 (-8 size, +12 Dex, +25 divine, +32 deflection, +60 natural), touch 71, flat-footed 119; 75% Miss Chance
Base Attack/Grapple: +60/+133
Mm, Tasty Adventurer: Bite +109 (6d6 + 32)
I Slice and Dice Too: Bite +109 (6d6 + 32), Claws +109/+109/+104/+99/+94 (4d8 + 16), Wings +109/+109/+104/+99/+94 (4d6 + 16), Tail Slap +109 (4d8 + 48)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./30 ft. (40 ft. with bite)
Special Attacks: All-the-Other-Breath-Weapons-Were-Taken, Crush, Frightful Presence, Tail Sweep, Spells
Special Qualities: Blind Sense 60 ft., Damage Reduction 50/+10, Fast Healing 45, I’m Immune Sucka!, Keen Senses, Pffft I Don’t Even Have to Roll, Spell Resistance 50
I Laugh at Your Tricks: Fort +89, Ref +69, Will +89
Don’t Hate Me ‘Cause I’m Perfect: Str 75, Dex 35, Con 75, Int 75, Wis 75, Cha 75
Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better: Bluff +120, Concentration +120, Diplomacy +120, Escape Artist +100, Hide +100, Intimidate +120, Knowledge (Arcane) +120, Listen +120, Move Silently +100, Search +120, Sense Motive +120, Spell Craft +120, Spot +120, Use Magic Device +120
Feats: Heighten Spell, Improved Initiative, Improved Multiattack, Improved Rapid Strike (Claws), Improved Rapid Strike (Wings), Large and in Charge, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Breath, Quicken Spell, Rapid Strike (Claws), Rapid Strike (Wings), Silent Spell, Still Spell
Epic Feats: Dire Charge, Epic Spell Casting, Improved Metamagic (3), Multispell (2)
Salient Divine Abilities: Alter Reality, Alter Form, Alter Size, Area Divine Shield, Battle Sense, Clear Sight, Control Creatures (Dragons), Divine Blast, Divine Celerity, Divine Dodge, Divine Fast Healing, Divine Glibness, Divine Spell Casting, Mass Divine Blast, Divine Shield, Free Move, Instant Counter Spell, Instant Move, Power of Luck, Power of Truth, Rejuvenation, Shape Change, Shift Form, Supreme Initiative, True Shape Change
Environment: Adamant Mountain
Organization: Silly Mortal, They Don’t Know What to Do With Just One of Me
Challenge Rating: 40 + Divine Ranks = You Can’t Beat Me
Treasure: You’re Wearing My Newest Delivery
Alignment: Neutral, So You Can’t Smite Me, Mwahahaha!

All-the-Other-Breath-Weapons-Were-Taken: 80 ft. cone; 40d12 minty fresh damage; Reflex half (DC 72).
Crush: See MM, page 68; Huge or smaller foe; Reflex DC 72; 6d6 + 48 damage.
Frightful Presence: See MM, page 69; 600 ft. radius; Will DC 72.
Spells: Io casts spells as a 40th level sorcerer with the metamagic specialist feature. Because he’s extra special, Io has access to any spell list he wants. Spell DCs 42 + Spell Level.

Epic (6/day): True Contingent Resurrection:
True Contingent Resurrection
Necromancy [Healing] – (Silly mortal, conjurations that heal are stupid.)
Spell Craft DC: 92
Components: DF
Casting Time: 1 quickened action
Range: Touch
Target: You or touched creature
Duration: Contingent until expended, then instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
To Develop: Seed: life (DC 27). Factor: quickened spell (+28 DC), activates when subject dies (+25 DC), no somatic component (+2 DC), no verbal component (+2 DC), no remains required (+4 DC ad hoc), no level loss (+4 DC ad hoc).
Effect: I’m back, biatch!

Spells I’ll Never Run Out Of:
32 (2/day)
31 (2/day)
30 (2/day)
29 (2/day)
28 (3/day)
27 (3/day)
26 (3/day)
25 (3/day)
24 (4/day)
23 (4/day)
22 (4/day)
21 (4/day)
20 (5/day)
19 (5/day)
18 (5/day)
17 (5/day)
16 (6/day)
15 (6/day)
14 (6/day)
13 (6/day)
12 (7/day)
11 (7/day)
10 (7/day)
9 (12/day): Freedom, Imprisonment, Mass Heal
8 (13/day): Dimensional Lock, Greater Spell Immunity, Moment of Prescience
7 (13/day): Blasphemy, Greater Arcane Sight, Greater Restoration
6 (13/day): Antimagic Field, Disintegrate, Heal
5 (13/day): Break Enchantment, Rary’s Telepathic Bond, Telekinesis, Wall of Force
4 (14/day): Bestow Curse, Greater Invisibility, Neutralize Poison, Superior Magic Fang (SC)
3 (14/day): Contagion, Haste, Magic Circle, Slow
2 (14/day): Bark Skin, Bear’s Endurance, Bull’s Strength, Protection from Arrows, Wraith Strike (SC)
1 (14/day): Feather Fall, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Shield, True Strike
0 (6/day): Who cares, honestly?

Tail Sweep: See MM, page 68; Large or smaller foes; 50 ft. radius; Reflex DC 72; 4d6 + 48 damage.
Damage Reduction: A weapon ignores 5 points of Io’s damage reduction per enhancement bonus it has.
I’m Immune Sucka!: Ability Damage, Ability Drain, Banishment Effects, Cold Damage, Death Effects, Disease, Disintegration, Electricity Damage, Energy Drain, Fire Damage, Imprisonment Effects, Mind-Affecting Effects, Paralysis Effects, Poison, Rebuking, Sleep Effects, Stunning, Transmutation, Turning
Pffft I Don’t Even Have to Roll: Seriously, even if my bonuses weren’t crazy high, I’m a freakin’ overdeity. That means I’m treated as rolling a 20 on any check, saving throw or attack roll. Roll those attack rolls anyway though, I might get a critical threat! Oh and I always deal maximum damage – whether physical, breath weapon or spell. (Though, as if I would use a direct damage spell – they’re so nooooob!)


(Seriously though, the ELH and D&D are the biggest jokes in 3e. If you want actually fightable gods -- and by that I mean challenging without being TPK traps -- you're going to have to massively revamp epic levels Or, use someone else's. (http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/index.php))

[Nai_Calus]

I'm pretty sure that if you try to fight Corellon Larethian he just kind of laughs at you and then uses his 20 levels of Wizard to ruin your junk and then uses his otherwise useless 19 levels of Fighter to prepare you for dinner.

[Flickerdart]

I'm pretty sure that if you try to fight Corellon Larethian he just kind of laughs at you and then uses his 20 levels of Wizard to ruin your junk and then uses his otherwise useless 19 levels of Fighter to prepare you for dinner.
Against a CR-appropriate party? I don't think so.

[Zaydos]

Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Loremaster 5/Archmage 5/Mindbender 1/Dread Necromancer 1/Warlock 1/Eldritch Disciple 7/Eldritch Theurge 4; +4 LA Lich.

He casts as a Lv 28 Wizard, Lv 20 Archivist, with Lv 12 warlock abilities. His level in Dread Necromancer allows him to get into Eldritch Disciple (it grants Rebuke Undead) and opens up DMM Persist cheese if wanted (could be removed for an extra level of Eldritch Theurge if Archivist was changed to Cloistered Cleric). Mindbender gives telepathy and if that's not desired ditch it for an extra level of Eldritch Theurge.

Not sure how good it would actually be, but still seems better than Cleric 20/Wizard 20. Loses a little painful bit of wizard casting compared to some, but doesn't require Dweomerkeeper which is tied to a different goddess (I believe) or Incanatrix which gives up a school of magic (he could give up Evocation but I always saw him as a master of every school of magic).

Far from completely optimized too, but gives him a lot of options and abilities.

Other option:
Wizard 3/Cloistered Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Loremaster 5/Archmage 5/Dread Necromancer 14; +4 LA Lich.

Casts as a Lv 36 Wizard and a Lv 26 cleric; take Practiced Spellcaster for both (CL 40/30) and then necromantic prowess raises them to 44/34 with necromancy. Leaves him still a generalist but really good with necromancy.

[Navigator]

What's wrong with Epic Mystic Theurge?

Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Archmage 4/Epic Mystic Theurge 20

[Nai_Calus]

Against a CR-appropriate party? I don't think so.

Yes, and while you've been preparing, he's been preparing too, and gathering his allies. He's not even remotely going to be alone or unprepared. Protip: You're probably the only adventuring party in existence who *can* off him, and he's going to have been aware of that for quite some time. He's also going to have been aware that you hated him enough to try killing him. He doesn't exist in a vacuum and he isn't an idiot. :|

Same for pretty much any god.

[KillianHawkeye]

Why is everybody bothering with the LA from the Lich template? LA is only for player characters and is utterly meaningless for an NPC.

[Foryn Gilnith]

What's wrong with Epic Mystic Theurge?

It's relatively useless?


Why is everybody bothering with the LA from the Lich template? LA is only for player characters and is utterly meaningless for an NPC.

Vecna has 40 class levels. We're working with 40 class levels. We'd be working with 40 if he wasn't a lich.

[KillianHawkeye]

Vecna has 40 class levels. We're working with 40 class levels. We'd be working with 40 if he wasn't a lich.

Yes that is exactly my point.

[Zaydos]

What's wrong with Epic Mystic Theurge?

Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Archmage 4/Epic Mystic Theurge 20

The official 3.5 update for the ELH gave it alternating progression and bonus feat every 6th level making it useless. With that build he'd have a CL of 27 as a wizard, and 23 as a cleric with 4 levels of archmage abilities and 3 epic bonus feats.

My first one actually capped out CL 28 and 20 so not too much better, and traded 3 epic feats for lore, telepathy, an extra archmage ability plus all the abilities of a 12th level warlock and greatreach spell (ranged touch, if it hits area effect spell centered there). It wasn't actually optimal but did see how many different neat types of abilities I could give him. The second one went more the epic theurge route and ended with CL 36 and 26 (9 and 3 higher) a +4 to CL with necromancy and an assortment of necromantic buffs as well as full archmage and 5 in loremaster.

So in short Epic Theurge isn't worth it.

[The Glyphstone]

Yes, and while you've been preparing, he's been preparing too, and gathering his allies. He's not even remotely going to be alone or unprepared. Protip: You're probably the only adventuring party in existence who *can* off him, and he's going to have been aware of that for quite some time. He's also going to have been aware that you hated him enough to try killing him. He doesn't exist in a vacuum and he isn't an idiot. :|

Same for pretty much any god.

Thing is, we're talking about a level 40 encounter here, which means Epic casting for the PC's. Therefore, either Corellan loses horribly with his non-epic casting vs. the Epic caster, or he calls in the aforementioned allies. If none of them have Epic casting, see Case 1. If one or more does, then it's back to an Epic Casters vs. Epic Casters, and the GOD involved in the fight doesn't matter any more than the various mooks scattered here and there.

[Xenogears]

Epic Spellcasting [Epic]
Prerequisite
Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells. OR Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells.

Just like to point out that even non altered Vecna has epic divine and arcane spellcasting. So does Correllon for that matter. A sorcerer 17 fighter 4 does too. You only need 24 ranks in those skills and 9th level spells. Nothing else.

Edit: Except of course the feat itself....

[Foryn Gilnith]

You mean sorcerer 18. Spontaneous casters lag behind a level.

[Xenogears]

You mean sorcerer 18. Spontaneous casters lag behind a level.

Shush you. Don't bring any of those crazy facts into my perfectly good point.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I think Vecna should have no more than 21 levels. Enough levels to get to epic spellcasting, and that's it. Maybe throw in demilich and lich. Just to emphasize the power of epic spells.

[Xenogears]

I know I've seen a build that had full divine and arcane casting plus full manifesting (although I don't recall seeing epic manifestations anywhere...) that was doable in 20 levels. Give him that.

[Navigator]

The official 3.5 update for the ELH gave it alternating progression and bonus feat every 6th level...
I was not even aware of this. I'm actually quite disturbed by this. In any case, I would have to agree that it's totally useless.

Carry on then, ignore me.

[The Glyphstone]

I think that's the Omnicaster, and it relies on both Gestalt and outright ignoring the unofficial ban on dual-progression classes in Gestalt. There might be a 9th/9th/9th build that isn't gestalted, but I haven't seen it.

I stand corrected on the 20th level sorcerer with Epic Spellcasting though. Does Corellan have Supreme Initiative?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I think that's the Omnicaster, and it relies on both Gestalt and outright ignoring the unofficial ban on dual-progression classes in Gestalt. There might be a 9th/9th/9th build that isn't gestalted, but I haven't seen it.Sublime Chord gets you fast Arcane, Ur-Priest gets you fast divine, anyone have a fast Psionic class?

[Foryn Gilnith]

I think that's the Omnicaster, and it relies on both Gestalt and outright ignoring the unofficial ban on dual-progression classes in Gestalt.

More importantly, it ignores the official ban on taking two prestige classes simultaneously in gestalt.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

And really, you ought to be able to hit 4 9th level spells in Gestalt if you're doing that. Shadowcaster 3/Wizard 3/whatever that dual-Prc is 10/Mt 4||Bard 1/Psion 9/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 9 gets you 9th level mysteries, 9th level Wizard, 9th level Sorcerer, and 9th level Psion. You can probably grab Cleric instead of one of those, maybe even grab high-level Ur-Priest without losing too much from the other classes, but I'm lazy.

[Nai_Calus]

Does Corellan have Supreme Initiative?

Corellon does indeed have Supreme Initiative. Which he uses to go first, ruin your day with some annoying 9th-level wizard spell he created without having to research, spontaneously cast something else to further ruin your day, and then bugger off using his ability to Plane Shift at-will to go pop over to Mount Celestia and have a beer with Moradin.

Also, while you were preparing and researching the epic spells you plan to use, he went and gained a couple more levels, took Epic Spellcasting himself and researched his own stuff to use against you. :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

he isn't an idiot. :|

Same for pretty much any god.

Well, we can't say for certain, given he is the god of the elves.

And, well, most of the Orc deities are pretty much stated to be dumber than bricks. And Mr. Larethian has those losers' boss as his arch nemesis.

[Tyndmyr]

I think that's the Omnicaster, and it relies on both Gestalt and outright ignoring the unofficial ban on dual-progression classes in Gestalt. There might be a 9th/9th/9th build that isn't gestalted, but I haven't seen it.

I stand corrected on the 20th level sorcerer with Epic Spellcasting though. Does Corellan have Supreme Initiative?

Even worse, it relies on ignoring the official ban on having PrCs on both sides, so it fails RAW. The dual progression thing is a suggested ban, but not absolutely mandatory.

I have a 9/9/9/7(well, technically much higher, due to early access to epic feats) build somewhere on here without that. Lil' Timmy is what I called it, I believe. I believe it also has a list of dual progression and rapid progression classes that might be of help for that as well.

[KillianHawkeye]

Any DM allowing Epic Spellcasting for PCs should obviously rewrite the spellcasting deities' stats to include that feat as well.

[magic9mushroom]

Vecna is about secrets. He's also really powerful. There is one REALLY obvious Prestige Class that fits him perfectly:

Tainted Scholar.

Assume that as DM you can fix the badly written taint rules for undead (I suggest "Undead can't increase corruption above their effective value which scales off charisma, undead take depravity as normal and can go insane") it fits obscenely well for Vecna.

So, let's give him 10 levels of that (yes, not optimal, but there's a saving throw to get out of it, and it's not half bad giving free bardic knowledge etc. so let's play it nice).

Ur-Priest also seems appropriate for someone as power-hungry as Vecna. Some of the flavour text of Sublime Chord also seems to lend itself.

For base classes, Wizard is obvious, and Bard is necessary for Sublime Chord.

So:

Wizard 5/Bard 1/Tainted Scholar 10 (advancing Wizard)/Sublime Chord 2 (adding to Wizard)/Ultimate Magus 10 (advancing Sublime Chord preferentially)/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10 (advancing Ur-Priest and either Sublime Chord or Wizard, take your pick).

Highlights:

Tainted Scholar. Hi.
Wizard, Sublime Chord and Ur-Priest all get 9th level casting, all running off Corruption/Depravity scores (and hence qualify for Divine Spellcasting, hello 50th level spell slots).
CL for Wiz, Sublime Chord is 44 (+5 from Arcane Spell Power), Ur-Priest is 34 I think.

Not using Incantatrix because it's Forgotten Realms and Vecna's a Greyhawk god.

Not using Druid or anything related to it because Vecna doesn't revere nature.

Not using Artificer because it's Eberron.

Not using Archivist because I frankly don't know it well enough.

Could add Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, but Alter Reality makes it rather redundant.

I'm sure you could get more optimised than this (well, I'm sure you can, since you can get Pun-Pun with a 11th level Egoist or so) but this seems reasonably optimised while retaining flavour.

[Volkov]

Heh, starting off as Wizard I'd believe it. I just think they could have, and should have, done better than 20/20 for his build. I mean really... He's technically not even epic casting, though he's more than epic level. 0.o

Vecna has indirectly tangled with the lady of pain in prior editions. He's that tricky. He is the Doctor doom of the D&D world. He has majorly altered all realities by stealing Iuz's power in the dying days of 2e, though then he was a single class level 36 wizard.

[Coidzor]

Vecna has indirectly tangled with the lady of pain in prior editions. He's that tricky. He is the Doctor doom of the D&D world. He has majorly altered all realities by stealing Iuz's power in the dying days of 2e, though then he was a single class level 36 wizard.

Wait, didn't he try to invade Sigil personally which was one of the in-universe explanations for one of the edition changes?

[Xenogears]

Corellon does indeed have Supreme Initiative. Which he uses to go first, ruin your day with some annoying 9th-level wizard spell he created without having to research, spontaneously cast something else to further ruin your day, and then bugger off using his ability to Plane Shift at-will to go pop over to Mount Celestia and have a beer with Moradin.

Also, while you were preparing and researching the epic spells you plan to use, he went and gained a couple more levels, took Epic Spellcasting himself and researched his own stuff to use against you. :smalltongue:

As I said earlier he already qualifies for the feat and as the book was written under the assumption that Epic was optional you should rework some feats like giving him (and most of the other gods since most have 9th level casting on one side) epic spellcasting. So he doesn't need to go get levels.

[Volkov]

Wait, didn't he try to invade Sigil personally which was one of the in-universe explanations for one of the edition changes?

I thought it was an effect of his screwing with the cosmos while he had the power of a greater deity.

[Nai_Calus]

As I said earlier he already qualifies for the feat and as the book was written under the assumption that Epic was optional you should rework some feats like giving him (and most of the other gods since most have 9th level casting on one side) epic spellcasting. So he doesn't need to go get levels.

Yes, but the people I was arguing with in the thread were assuming using his stats as-written in the book in a campaign with full epic rules in place. We'll ignore that this is counter to the book's suggestions and common sense and run with it, in which case he would need to go get a few more levels to grab a feat slot to take epic spellcasting with. Might as well go for an ability score increase in that case too to raise his INT from 35 to 36.

Regardless of anything, yes, it's not going to be a fair fight against a completely screwed opponent. He's a greater god, one of the most powerful ones at that, and has lots of friends who are also going to be rather powerful. You'd have better luck picking off someone who doesn't have a bunch of friends. Lolth for example, doesn't have much in the way allies, lots of enemies and isn't a greater god. You could probably convince Corellon to help you with that one, for that matter.

[taltamir]

why do deities even need levels when they have "alter reality" and "life and death"

Alter reality: wish, at will, as an SLA, with no XP cost.
"I alter reality to make you dead."
or "I wish I was greater teleported to a demiplane which you cannot reach... whereupon I use my life and death to get you

Death: Instantly kill a being no matter where he is, save negatves... if you save, he can just try again the next round, and the next round, and so on. A being killed in such a manner can only be brought back to life by a deity of equal or greater divine rank who is using the life power and only the life power.

Life: brings someone back to life, only way to bring someone back to life is he was killed by death.

All that being said.


You want a better god? Screw prestige and epic classes, those're for suckers. Step up, use your DM fiat like I did when I wrote Io -- the MAN'S GOD!!!


Io, the True Dragon
Io appears as the biggest dragon you’ve ever seen. I know I’ve said that about the last five dragons you’ve fought, but I promise I won’t say it again. It’s extra true this time. His scales, surprisingly enough, are flawless mythril plates of draconic perfection. How’re they different from Bahamut’s platinum scales and a silver’s silver scales? I dunno, they’re more shiny or something.
Really Colossal Dragon
Divine Rank: 25
Domains: Destruction, Luck, Trickery
Hit Dice: 60d12 + 1,920 (2,640)
I Go First: No, really, I have Supreme Initiative (+16)
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares), fly 300 ft. good (60 squares), swim 60 ft. (12 squares), burrow 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 131 (-8 size, +12 Dex, +25 divine, +32 deflection, +60 natural), touch 71, flat-footed 119; 75% Miss Chance
Base Attack/Grapple: +60/+133
Mm, Tasty Adventurer: Bite +109 (6d6 + 32)
I Slice and Dice Too: Bite +109 (6d6 + 32), Claws +109/+109/+104/+99/+94 (4d8 + 16), Wings +109/+109/+104/+99/+94 (4d6 + 16), Tail Slap +109 (4d8 + 48)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./30 ft. (40 ft. with bite)
Special Attacks: All-the-Other-Breath-Weapons-Were-Taken, Crush, Frightful Presence, Tail Sweep, Spells
Special Qualities: Blind Sense 60 ft., Damage Reduction 50/+10, Fast Healing 45, I’m Immune Sucka!, Keen Senses, Pffft I Don’t Even Have to Roll, Spell Resistance 50
I Laugh at Your Tricks: Fort +89, Ref +69, Will +89
Don’t Hate Me ‘Cause I’m Perfect: Str 75, Dex 35, Con 75, Int 75, Wis 75, Cha 75
Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better: Bluff +120, Concentration +120, Diplomacy +120, Escape Artist +100, Hide +100, Intimidate +120, Knowledge (Arcane) +120, Listen +120, Move Silently +100, Search +120, Sense Motive +120, Spell Craft +120, Spot +120, Use Magic Device +120
Feats: Heighten Spell, Improved Initiative, Improved Multiattack, Improved Rapid Strike (Claws), Improved Rapid Strike (Wings), Large and in Charge, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Breath, Quicken Spell, Rapid Strike (Claws), Rapid Strike (Wings), Silent Spell, Still Spell
Epic Feats: Dire Charge, Epic Spell Casting, Improved Metamagic (3), Multispell (2)
Salient Divine Abilities: Alter Reality, Alter Form, Alter Size, Area Divine Shield, Battle Sense, Clear Sight, Control Creatures (Dragons), Divine Blast, Divine Celerity, Divine Dodge, Divine Fast Healing, Divine Glibness, Divine Spell Casting, Mass Divine Blast, Divine Shield, Free Move, Instant Counter Spell, Instant Move, Power of Luck, Power of Truth, Rejuvenation, Shape Change, Shift Form, Supreme Initiative, True Shape Change
Environment: Adamant Mountain
Organization: Silly Mortal, They Don’t Know What to Do With Just One of Me
Challenge Rating: 40 + Divine Ranks = You Can’t Beat Me
Treasure: You’re Wearing My Newest Delivery
Alignment: Neutral, So You Can’t Smite Me, Mwahahaha!

All-the-Other-Breath-Weapons-Were-Taken: 80 ft. cone; 40d12 minty fresh damage; Reflex half (DC 72).
Crush: See MM, page 68; Huge or smaller foe; Reflex DC 72; 6d6 + 48 damage.
Frightful Presence: See MM, page 69; 600 ft. radius; Will DC 72.
Spells: Io casts spells as a 40th level sorcerer with the metamagic specialist feature. Because he’s extra special, Io has access to any spell list he wants. Spell DCs 42 + Spell Level.

Epic (6/day): True Contingent Resurrection:
True Contingent Resurrection
Necromancy [Healing] – (Silly mortal, conjurations that heal are stupid.)
Spell Craft DC: 92
Components: DF
Casting Time: 1 quickened action
Range: Touch
Target: You or touched creature
Duration: Contingent until expended, then instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
To Develop: Seed: life (DC 27). Factor: quickened spell (+28 DC), activates when subject dies (+25 DC), no somatic component (+2 DC), no verbal component (+2 DC), no remains required (+4 DC ad hoc), no level loss (+4 DC ad hoc).
Effect: I’m back, biatch!

Spells I’ll Never Run Out Of:
32 (2/day)
31 (2/day)
30 (2/day)
29 (2/day)
28 (3/day)
27 (3/day)
26 (3/day)
25 (3/day)
24 (4/day)
23 (4/day)
22 (4/day)
21 (4/day)
20 (5/day)
19 (5/day)
18 (5/day)
17 (5/day)
16 (6/day)
15 (6/day)
14 (6/day)
13 (6/day)
12 (7/day)
11 (7/day)
10 (7/day)
9 (12/day): Freedom, Imprisonment, Mass Heal
8 (13/day): Dimensional Lock, Greater Spell Immunity, Moment of Prescience
7 (13/day): Blasphemy, Greater Arcane Sight, Greater Restoration
6 (13/day): Antimagic Field, Disintegrate, Heal
5 (13/day): Break Enchantment, Rary’s Telepathic Bond, Telekinesis, Wall of Force
4 (14/day): Bestow Curse, Greater Invisibility, Neutralize Poison, Superior Magic Fang (SC)
3 (14/day): Contagion, Haste, Magic Circle, Slow
2 (14/day): Bark Skin, Bear’s Endurance, Bull’s Strength, Protection from Arrows, Wraith Strike (SC)
1 (14/day): Feather Fall, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Shield, True Strike
0 (6/day): Who cares, honestly?

Tail Sweep: See MM, page 68; Large or smaller foes; 50 ft. radius; Reflex DC 72; 4d6 + 48 damage.
Damage Reduction: A weapon ignores 5 points of Io’s damage reduction per enhancement bonus it has.
I’m Immune Sucka!: Ability Damage, Ability Drain, Banishment Effects, Cold Damage, Death Effects, Disease, Disintegration, Electricity Damage, Energy Drain, Fire Damage, Imprisonment Effects, Mind-Affecting Effects, Paralysis Effects, Poison, Rebuking, Sleep Effects, Stunning, Transmutation, Turning
Pffft I Don’t Even Have to Roll: Seriously, even if my bonuses weren’t crazy high, I’m a freakin’ overdeity. That means I’m treated as rolling a 20 on any check, saving throw or attack roll. Roll those attack rolls anyway though, I might get a critical threat! Oh and I always deal maximum damage – whether physical, breath weapon or spell. (Though, as if I would use a direct damage spell – they’re so nooooob!)


(Seriously though, the ELH and D&D are the biggest jokes in 3e. If you want actually fightable gods -- and by that I mean challenging without being TPK traps -- you're going to have to massively revamp epic levels Or, use someone else's. (http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/index.php))

I am loving it... now thats a god.

BTW... are any gods epic level casters? I think the gods and deities books assume a game where the epic failure... sorry epic handbook doesn't exist.

[Xenogears]

Death: Instantly kill a being no matter where he is, save negatves... if you save, he can just try again the next round, and the next round, and so on. A being killed in such a manner can only be brought back to life by a deity of equal or greater divine rank who is using the life power and only the life power.

I believe the upgraded version of that move doesn't even allow a save.

Also there are a number of other powerful abilities too. For instance a God of Death would sense every death (even their own) weeks before it happened. Good luck killing him. Thats not even a bloody Salient Divine ability. Just an "I'm a Diety ability."


I am loving it... now thats a god.

BTW... are any gods epic level casters? I think the gods and deities books assume a game where the epic failure... sorry epic handbook doesn't exist.

They are designed as seperate books so no gods (even boccob, god of magic) have epic magic. However almost all of them have 9th level casting and so could qualify for the feat.

[Tyndmyr]

Also there are a number of other powerful abilities too. For instance a God of Death would sense every death (even their own) weeks before it happened. Good luck killing him. Thats not even a bloody Salient Divine ability. Just an "I'm a Diety ability."

Dammit, wizards...yet another ability that results in shrodinger-like effects. In this case, the survival of the party.

[magic9mushroom]

I believe the upgraded version of that move doesn't even allow a save.

Also there are a number of other powerful abilities too. For instance a God of Death would sense every death (even their own) weeks before it happened. Good luck killing him. Thats not even a bloody Salient Divine ability. Just an "I'm a Diety ability."



They are designed as seperate books so no gods (even boccob, god of magic) have epic magic. However almost all of them have 9th level casting and so could qualify for the feat.

No, only a Greater Deity could do that. Intermediate Deities or Lesser Deities could sense it after it happened, but a fat lot of good that would do.

And again, there's all the temporal paradoxes that that immediately throws up.

[SoC175]

Against a CR-appropriate party? I don't think so. Against a CR-appropriate party he first laughs, then goes first (surpreme initiative), casts an enlarged anti-magic field and starts to beat the s### out of them because his magic is unaffected while their's is gone :smallbiggrin:

[magic9mushroom]

Against a CR-appropriate party he first laughs, then goes first (surpreme initiative), casts an enlarged anti-magic field and starts to beat the s### out of them because his magic is unaffected while their's is gone :smallbiggrin:

Deific magic is affected by AMF. Only their salient divine abilities are not affected.

[sofawall]

Epic magic gets to ignore AMF, if I recall correctly.

But seeing as how I've never even opened the ELH or looked in that section of the SRD, that may be suspect, at best.

[taltamir]

Deific magic is affected by AMF. Only their salient divine abilities are not affected.

and he is referring to a post where someone specifically said "don't use the stupid book, use dm fiat to design a worthwhile deity"...
so by DM fiat, Io the over-god has magic that ignores AMF.


Epic magic gets to ignore AMF, if I recall correctly.

But seeing as how I've never even opened the ELH or looked in that section of the SRD, that may be suspect, at best.

Is it ignore, or is it "has a chance to overcome"? I recall it being a chance to overcome.

[sofawall]

But seeing as how I've never even opened the ELH or looked in that section of the SRD, that may be suspect, at best.

And I intend to keep it that way.

[SoC175]

Deific magic is affected by AMF. Only their salient divine abilities are not affected.
Deity magic is also unaffected, it's right in the spell description. It was even changed with the 3.5 revision to include DvR 0 deites (it said demigods or higher in 3.0). The part about SDAs being unaffected is redundant.

[Nai_Calus]

Basically the gods cheat, and they cheat better than you can. The Greater Gods, anyway.