Opinions on 2 house rules

[Paganboy28]

1) Skills checks

Rolling a 1 on the D20 counts as a -10 result. This is not an automatic failure. A botch only occurs if the overall results is below 0 (the more negative then the worse the botch). If you roll 20 then you can roll again and add the result to the first, continuing if you get more 20's. If the roll is 20+ the DC then you get a critical success (again the more above the 20+ threshold then the better).

2) Combat rolls

Similar to above. Instead of the normal critical hit system, we sometimes use this.

Roll against AC as normal using the D20 + BAB + mods. All as normal. If the result is the threat range or more above the AC then this is a critical hit. So most weapons need to be at least 20 or more above the AC to critically hit, a sword needs to be 19 above the AC, etc. Again if a player rolls a 20 then you can continue to roll and accumulate the hit total.

A 1 again counts as a -10 to the result. If this is 20 or more below the AC of the enemy then its a botch. The more below the worse it is.

[Tadanori Oyama]

They don't seem very necessary.

[Tyndmyr]

Yay. We now have either DM fiat on the effect of botchs/crits, or we slow down combat by rolling on tables. Crits are now mostly impossible for players, and things that improve crit ranges are now essentially worthless.

What the hell is a critical success on a skill? What happens when I crit on tying a knot?

Throw them away.

[erikun]

1) Skills checks

Rolling a 1 on the D20 counts as a -10 result. If you roll 20 then you can roll again and add the result to the first, continuing if you get more 20's.
Sounds good, although you are losing more from the 1 than you are getting from the 20.


A botch only occurs if the overall results is below 0 (the more negative then the worse the botch).
This will result in a lot of botches on untrained skills, all the time. Need to climb in heavy armor? Botch. Need to balance on a slippery floor? Botch. I don't even want to know that happens when you botch a knowledge check.


If the roll is 20+ the DC then you get a critical success (again the more above the 20+ threshold then the better).
It is very hard to get 20 above any meaningful DC. At best, you'll be seeing characters "critical successing" mundane tasks all the time.

At worst, high level parties will be split between those who always get critical successes (those with skill points) and those who always get botches (those without).


2) Combat rolls

Roll against AC as normal using the D20 + BAB + mods. All as normal. If the result is the threat range or more above the AC then this is a critical hit. So most weapons need to be at least 20 or more above the AC to critically hit, a sword needs to be 19 above the AC, etc. Again if a player rolls a 20 then you can continue to roll and accumulate the hit total.

A 1 again counts as a -10 to the result. If this is 20 or more below the AC of the enemy then its a botch. The more below the worse it is.
It is virtually impossible for a fighter to hit 20 above the AC of whatever they will be fighting, even with your system. This makes critical hit builds (or anything that relies on a critical hit) virtually worthless, because you practically need the natural 20 to get anywhere close to your crit range.

Conversely, wizards will critical hit all the time, due to the difference between AC and touch AC.

This also punishes iterative attacks. I don't want to be swinging at a -25 penality when missing by 20 causes my sword to break, but there really isn't an option to take only half your full attack.

[Yuki Akuma]

Yeah, uh... they seem to complicate matters far more than necessary, address absolutely no balance issues whatsoever, and don't seem fun at all.

If my DM presented me with those houserules, I'd walk.

[Tyndmyr]

Not sure it does. High level mobs tend to have high AC. Fighters tend to power attack away extra BaB to keep up in damage, overcome DR, all that good stuff. So, getting 20 below AC is possible with a nat 1 and a -10 modifier at times. Iteratives get nasty.

Non-full BaB classes like monks are exceedingly likely to fumble, especially on iteratives. It's not uncommon for the last hit to require a nat 20 to hit.

Thanks to iteratives, high level melee types will botch much more frequently than low level types. TWF folks get even more screwed.

This is basically a giant ball of fail for the classes that need help most.

[Nai_Calus]

Agreeing with everyone above and noting that skill rolls don't autofail on 1 to begin with(Or crit on 20). A 1+mods on a skill roll is just 1+mods.

Too complicated and it punishes the classes already screwed even more. Dump.

[Swordgleam]

I'm a big fan of crits and botches on skills, but I have a feeling this thread is just going to be repeating a lot of the same arguments found here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136430


I don't even want to know that happens when you botch a knowledge check.

You believe something dangerous to be absolutely true. Which generally results in some pretty great roleplaying.

[Tyndmyr]

Heh, the botch rules are especially bad for fighters. I mean, seriously, crap skill points to begin with...a shot at a -10 modifier...you've got armor check penalties, possibly, and likely negative modifiers in a LOT of skills.

So, what happens when you botch a listen check? A fail I get, sure...but what bad event happens if I listen...poorly?

[Swordgleam]

So, what happens when you botch a listen check? A fail I get, sure...but what bad event happens if I listen...poorly?

If there isn't anything there to hear, then you think you hear something big and scary. If there is something there to hear, you're convinced that it's silent and safe.

This happened all the time in my 1st edition game just with low rolls for stuff like knowledge and listen checks. I'm not sure why everyone you've played with is awesome at those skills.

[Kylarra]

Heh, the botch rules are especially bad for fighters. I mean, seriously, crap skill points to begin with...a shot at a -10 modifier...you've got armor check penalties, possibly, and likely negative modifiers in a LOT of skills.

So, what happens when you botch a listen check? A fail I get, sure...but what bad event happens if I listen...poorly?You see hear dead people.

[Tyndmyr]

If there isn't anything there to hear, then you think you hear something big and scary. If there is something there to hear, you're convinced that it's silent and safe.

Awesome. So being hard of hearing makes me hear voices.

Does being bad at diplomacy make them talk to me?


This happened all the time in my 1st edition game just with low rolls for stuff like knowledge and listen checks. I'm not sure why everyone you've played with is awesome at those skills.

Pfft, we have the oblivious ones, of course. Don't hear a thing, no matter what. Probably couldn't hear themselves. We usually let them go first.

[Swordgleam]

Awesome. So being hard of hearing makes me hear voices.

Does being bad at diplomacy make them talk to me?


Nah, but sometimes you can be straining so hard to hear something that's not there, that you convince yourself something is. Haven't you ever gone camping on a dark, creepy, suspiciously quiet night? If this doesn't happen to you, I would like you to please start coming along on my camping trips.

[Kylarra]

We joke about how our paladin's low perception checks in 4e make him barely aware that he's in a room. :smallbiggrin:

[Swordgleam]

We joke about how our paladin's low perception checks in 4e make him barely aware that he's in a room. :smallbiggrin:

I have this problem. My house apparently had a fire extinguisher in the kitchen for about five years before I noticed it.

[Tyndmyr]

Nah, but sometimes you can be straining so hard to hear something that's not there, that you convince yourself something is. Haven't you ever gone camping on a dark, creepy, suspiciously quiet night? If this doesn't happen to you, I would like you to please start coming along on my camping trips.

Oh, I already have been.

[Swordgleam]

Oh, I already have been.

Oh, was that you? Nice coat, but I think everyone else would have preferred it if you'd also been wearing pants.

[Volos]

Keep these rules if you feel like having your players revolt.