Adopted?!

[madtinker]

I was re-reading the archives, and it appears V's children are "adopted progeny." Does this surprise anyone else? I mean, I don't remember that line (its #631).

[Lira]

Why were you surprised? The kids have a different skin colour than their parents, so it was the obvious answer even before V confirmed they were adopted.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I was re-reading the archives, and it appears V's children are "adopted progeny." Does this surprise anyone else? I mean, I don't remember that line (its #631).

Nope. It's...Fitting.

Also, look at their skin tones. No way they're V and Kyrie's biological children.

[Morquard]

Also it leaves the option for V and Kyrie to be the same sex.

[Gift Jeraff]

It helps to make V's gender an even bigger mystery, since now V and Kyrie don't necessarily have to be of the opposite sexes.

[Maximum Zersk]

Heh, this has been gone through over and over again, ever since that page came out.

That would make qquite a few permutations possible. About.. 4, if you don't count a few other, more specific ones.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Heh, this has been gone through over and over again, ever since that page came out.

That would make qquite a few permutations possible. About.. 4, if you don't count a few other, more specific ones.

Male-Female, Female-Male, Female-Female, Male-Male.

[madtinker]

Guess I didn't read that carefully or look that closely. Question answered.

[ZeroNumerous]

Male-Female, Female-Male, Female-Female, Male-Male.


... a few other, more specific ones.

Magic: It does lots of squicky things.

[TheSummoner]

And of course, those 4 assume that elven reproductive biology works the same way humans do...

They're plants I tells ya!

[CoffeeIncluded]

And of course, those 4 assume that elven reproductive biology works the same way humans do...

They're plants I tells ya!

Humanoid type and half-elves.

Then again, considering what humans can breed with...:smalltongue:

[TheSummoner]

Elves are plants! Thats why they care so much about nature! They're plants I tells ya! Why won't anyone believes me!? They're plants I tells ya!

[Mystic Muse]

Elves are plants! Thats why they care so much about nature! They're plants I tells ya! Why won't anyone believes me!? They're plants I tells ya!

wouldn't that mean Durkon is adventuring with a tree?

[Water-Smurf]

Elves are plants! Thats why they care so much about nature! They're plants I tells ya! Why won't anyone believes me!? They're plants I tells ya!

Pssh. The things people come up with.

We all know that elves are actually half-camel. :smalltongue:

[Spiky]

Nope. It's...Fitting.

Also, look at their skin tones. No way they're V and Kyrie's biological children.

And once again I must point out that it is an oxymoron. Progeny means to come from, adopted means they came from somewhere else.

[Lissou]

And once again I must point out that it is an oxymoron. Progeny means to come from, adopted means they came from somewhere else.

Indeed. Actually I know people who use the word (pro)genitor to refer to their biological parents as opposed to their real, adoptive ones.

I'm guessing etymologically, it has something to do with "genes".

[Conuly]

Indeed. Actually I know people who use the word (pro)genitor to refer to their biological parents as opposed to their real, adoptive ones.

I'm guessing etymologically, it has something to do with "genes".

No, not really. The -gen in gene comes from Greek, while progenitor comes from Latin.

As it happens, those two -gens are cognates (as is the English word kin), but it doesn't have to have been that way.

[magic9mushroom]

And once again I must point out that it is an oxymoron. Progeny means to come from, adopted means they came from somewhere else.

Oh, calm down. V isn't perfect.

Unless, of course, they are like Divayth Fyr's "daughters" in Morrowind... :smalleek:


Indeed. Actually I know people who use the word (pro)genitor to refer to their biological parents as opposed to their real, adoptive ones.

I'm guessing etymologically, it has something to do with "genes".

The stem is "gen", yes. As in "generate".

[Mystic Muse]

Oh, calm down. V isn't perfect.

Unless, of course, they are like Divayth Fyr's "daughters" in Morrowind... :smalleek:


umm. If they were the same wouldn't that make V an incestuous paedophile?

[Maximum Zersk]

Magic: It does lots of squicky things.

Actually, I meant the possibility that one of them could be a hermaphrodite, adding even more to the permutation list.

Or maybe even an unknown fourth sex...

Or even paraphilia by using magic...

I'm going to stop now... :smalleek:

[magic9mushroom]

umm. If they were the same wouldn't that make V an incestuous paedophile?

Um, no? What?

[Mystic Muse]

Um, no? What?

I might be mistaken but I seem to remember divayth fyr mentioning having romantic relations with his "daughters"

[multilis]

wouldn't that mean Durkon is adventuring with a tree?
Part tree/dryad, part human, above top secret, if the dwarves knew there would be war.

[martinkou]

Actually, I meant the possibility that one of them could be a hermaphrodite, adding even more to the permutation list.

Or maybe even an unknown fourth sex...

Or even paraphilia by using magic...

I'm going to stop now... :smalleek:

Based on V's comment on how he's not qualified to comment on gender traits - I'd say he's either a hermaphrodite or genderless.

[Optimystik]

Why were you surprised? The kids have a different skin colour than their parents, so it was the obvious answer even before V confirmed they were adopted.

I remember when we first saw V's children (#629) but before it was revealed that they were adopted; one of the more plausible secondary theories was that they were 4th Edition Elves, which would fit their youth and skin/hair coloring.

I personally was in favor of adoption (as that would increase the chances of V and K being same-sex partners.)

[TimelordSimone]

The kids have a different skin colour than their parents

Seems like a sly 4e reference to me.

Vaarsuvius and Inkyrius are 3(.5)e elves. The kids are 4e elves.
3(.5)e elves are fair skinned high elves.
4e elves are dark skinned wood elves.

But perhaps that is just me?

EDIT: this is why you read the whole thread before you reply.

one of the more plausible secondary theories was that they were 4th Edition Elves, which would fit their youth and skin/hair coloring.

[TheSummoner]

wouldn't that mean Durkon is adventuring with a tree?

Not necessarily... A tree is a specific type of plant... not all plants are trees... Elves are more closely related to brocoli than to trees... Still, they're similar enough that it has strained race relations between the Dwarves and Elves...

[Asta Kask]

Not necessarily... A tree is a specific type of plant... not all plants are trees... Elves are more closely related to brocoli than to trees... Still, they're similar enough that it has strained race relations between the Dwarves and Elves...

Exactly. After all, dwarves and orcs are both mammals, yet no one would say that a dwarf is an orc. At least not twice.

[Matar]

I might be mistaken but I seem to remember divayth fyr mentioning having romantic relations with his "daughters"

I think it's technically masturbation, seeing as how they are his female clones.

Besides, they're Dunmer. They must be about 50+ years old at least, and it's not like they don't enjoy it...

Remember, Dunmers are kinky like that.

Also, I'm with the whole "Elves are plants" crowed. It just makes the most sense.

[silversaraph]

Is V a vegan? The only thing you ever see him eat, where there's a choice of eggs, bacon, or pancakes is grapefruit, and other times it's also non-dairy non-meat.

I've also given up the (internal) V debate for myself, finally. V wasn't originally drawn to look androgynous and Rich later decided to roll with it. It wasn't something meant to be a secret, like Mitd, so was originally assumed to be male.

Edit: Hey, maybe he's a fruitenarian! That would explain the plant hypothesis, as if he spreads the seeds around when he's done, he's bringing life, not destroying it! And eating anything even almost related to you is just plain weird. (I'll eat birds, but not mammals.)

[Gri]

I think it's technically masturbation, seeing as how they are his female clones.

Besides, they're Dunmer. They must be about 50+ years old at least, and it's not like they don't enjoy it...

Remember, Dunmers are kinky like that.

Also, I'm with the whole "Elves are plants" crowed. It just makes the most sense.

I don't know the story they are referring to, but keep in mind that a pedophile is merely a person who is aroused by immature bodies. So what you are saying is not mutually exclusive with that.

Anyways, I don't think V has no gender or is a plant or anything lame like that. ;) At least this is the case if the gender ever gets revealed.

[Matar]

So, you're saying V is a cannibal? Isn't that an evil act in DnD, or no? Although I like that whole "fruitenarian" idea. V is obviously a Veggie, and Fruits are there mortal enemies.

It's like, common knowledge. Remember the Carrot and Raisin wars? Horrible times. Horrible until the Mayo people joined in. Then it became delicious.


I don't know the story they are referring to, but keep in mind that a pedophile is merely a person who is aroused by immature bodies. So what you are saying is not mutually exclusive with that.

I have no idea what's a "Mature" Dunmer is, though. They weren't kids though, if that's what you're saying. He's not like a certain Khajiit, so I doubt he'd be banging the young Dunmer girls. (Bonus points if anyone knows of whom I am speaking).

[Zanaril]

Is V a vegan? The only thing you ever see him eat, where there's a choice of eggs, bacon, or pancakes is grapefruit, and other times it's also non-dairy non-meat.

Weird, I've had this pet-theory as well. It could just be that V's a healthy eater and we don't see the OOTS eating that often.

Although V has sort of eaten dragon...

V doesn't realy seem like the type to value life, so it would have to be for some other reason.


Remember, Dunmers are kinky like that.

Please don't remind me. The uncensored copy of The Real Barenziah goes into more than enough detail. :smallyuk:

[Lira]

I remember when we first saw V's children (#629) but before it was revealed that they were adopted; one of the more plausible secondary theories was that they were 4th Edition Elves, which would fit their youth and skin/hair coloring.I just don't think that could be considered an "obvious" answer. But I suppose the definition of what's obvious changes from person to person. :smalltongue:

[Sholos]

I personally was in favor of adoption (as that would increase the chances of V and K being same-sex partners.)

I don't see how it increases the chances so much as doesn't exclude the possibility.

[JonahFalcon]

Only Haley knows V's sex, and she says it's disturbing.

Hermaphrodite, anyone? Or maybe no equipment at all? Ken doll, folks.

[Zevox]

Only Haley knows V's sex, and she says it's disturbing.
Source please. I do not recall any indication that Haley knows V's sex, much less any comment from her to the effect that it's "disturbing."

Zevox

[martinkou]

I've also given up the (internal) V debate for myself, finally. V wasn't originally drawn to look androgynous and Rich later decided to roll with it. It wasn't something meant to be a secret, like Mitd, so was originally assumed to be male.

Edit: Hey, maybe he's a fruitenarian! That would explain the plant hypothesis, as if he spreads the seeds around when he's done, he's bringing life, not destroying it! And eating anything even almost related to you is just plain weird. (I'll eat birds, but not mammals.)

V... Before the more "detailed" pictures of V came out, I'd always imagined V as a short, fat, whiny female wizard, speaking with a whiny woman's voice. The stereotypical nerd chick, like Meg Griffin in Family Guy.

Speaking of which... Meg's picture here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meg_Griffin) do look a bit like V.

[Gri]

^^ agree. I though V was a plump dumpy nerd woman too.

[Meg]

Glad to see I wasn't the only one who thought V was supposed to be dumpy.

[Optimystik]

I just don't think that could be considered an "obvious" answer. But I suppose the definition of what's obvious changes from person to person. :smalltongue:

I didn't think that was the case either, but family generations do seem to give the Giant fodder for poking at the various editions. :smalltongue:

Although, the fact that they were adopted still doesn't rule out the 4e reference anyway.


I don't see how it increases the chances so much as doesn't exclude the possibility.

That's really what I meant, and worded poorly.

[Sewblon]

Only Haley knows V's sex, and she says it's disturbing.

Hermaphrodite, anyone? Or maybe no equipment at all? Ken doll, folks. We know that Elves mate and form families, so I think it is safe to rule out the plant and Barbie/Ken theories. Hermaphrodite is the only explanation :vaarsuvius: "I am not qualified to discuss gender traits." How else can we possibly interpret that?

[Matar]

Hermaphrodite is the only explanation "I am not qualified to discuss gender traits." How else can we possibly interpret that?

Am I the only one who finds the "V is a Hermaphrodite" kind of... hot?

Ahem, anyways. I think all that meant is that he sucks when it comes to gender related issues. Elves are odd like that.

[ZerglingOne]

I'd guess the whole adoption idea came when V wasn't spending enough time with Kyrie (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html) to actually...you know...have kids of their own? The other possibility being that elves work differently in Rich's world and have sex chromosomes like those of a platypus In 2004, researchers at the Australian National University discovered the Platypus has ten sex chromosomes, compared with two (XY) in most other mammals.
-Retrieved from Wikipedia.(which would explain a lot).

[Zanaril]

I'd guess the whole adoption idea came when V wasn't spending enough time with Kyrie (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html) to actually...you know...have kids of their own?
Although V not having easy access to virgin's blood seems to imply they did at least spend some time.


The other possibility being that elves work differently in Rich's world and have sex chromosomes like those of a platypus In 2004, researchers at the Australian National University discovered the Platypus has ten sex chromosomes, compared with two (XY) in most other mammals.
-Retrieved from Wikipedia.(which would explain a lot).
Oh gods. Platipode are just so weird.

Look! They're even symmetrical!
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii21/Zanaril/funnypics/snkyop.png

[ZerglingOne]

I happen to think they're quite adorable :smallfrown: except the males with their poisonous spurs.

[Zanaril]

I happen to think they're quite adorable :smallfrown: except the males with their poisonous spurs.

The two are not mutally exclusive.

[Asta Kask]

Agreed. How can you not love this?

http://www.cryptomundo.com/wp-content/uploads/evolution-platypus.jpg

So, is V a platypus? And do platypodes typically adopt their progeny? Or sell their souls to the devils?

[ZerglingOne]

The two are not mutally exclusive.

No? Why don't you pick up a male platypus, hug it, and attempt to adore it, you would likely regret it... Anyway, the platypus theory could also extend to the reason there are drow, wild elves, sun elves, moon elves, and wood elves. Also, aside from orcs (which I happen to believe are humans with cuprous blood, bad teeth, and no growth shut off gene) they are the only standard species that mates with humans and produces offspring regularly, with a flexible sex genome, it may extend the number of species able to produce offspring.

[Meg]

I assumed that elves have genders, but no gender identities. Like, they don't perceive any difference between males and females, and are puzzled by other races that do have that difference.

[Mystic Muse]

I assumed that elves have genders, but no gender identities. Like, they don't perceive any difference between males and females, and are puzzled by other races that do have that difference.

doesn't really work though since Lirian is an elf with a clearly established gender.

[Meg]

Well, you get weirdos in every group. And maybe she was putting out for Durokon (sp)?

[Nimrod's Son]

doesn't really work though since Lirian is an elf with a clearly established gender.
Yes, but what clearly-established gender traits does she display? Having large breasts isn't a trait. Having a boyfriend isn't a trait. I can't think of any aspect of Lirian's personality that particularly suggests she should be female. Sure, we know she is female, but that's not the same thing.

[Mystic Muse]

Yes, but what clearly-established gender traits does she display? Having large breasts isn't a trait. Having a boyfriend isn't a trait. I can't think of any aspect of Lirian's personality that particularly suggests she should be female. Sure, we know she is female, but that's not the same thing.

The problem is we don't know a whole lot about the order of the scribble and there aren't any other clearly female elves that have played a long part in the OOTS story that I can think of.

[Nimrod's Son]

The problem is we don't know a whole lot about the order of the scribble and there aren't any other clearly female elves that have played a long part in the OOTS story that I can think of.
I don't see that as a problem. It just seems to me that as far as elven society is concerned, women aren't presumed to get hysterical over little things or hold disproportionate grudges, or like dancing and flowers. Men aren't presumed to fart and belch and scratch themselves inappropriately, or like sport and fast chariots. These are human stereotypes that simply don't exist for them; elves just see each other as people.

Of course, they actually are one sex or the other. But there is no particular way they're expected to act because of it. That's what I took V's comment about not being qualified to discuss gender traits to mean (Of course, it holds even more true for V, having spent the majority of his life hidden away in a tower).

[CrimsonAngel]

Male-Female, Female-Male, Female-Female, Male-Male.

Don't forget whatever this is
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/CrimsonAngelChris/oots9901.gif

[TheSummoner]

So, you're saying V is a cannibal? Isn't that an evil act in DnD, or no? Although I like that whole "fruitenarian" idea. V is obviously a Veggie, and Fruits are there mortal enemies.

It's like, common knowledge. Remember the Carrot and Raisin wars? Horrible times. Horrible until the Mayo people joined in. Then it became delicious.

Indeed, Elves are veggies. It is the duty of every Elf to slaughter their mortal enemies, the fruit people. Currently, they're fighting off the traitorous tomato people, who were once allies of the elves, but turned on them and joined the grapes. The evil tomatos have been attempting genocide on the elves for decades.

[Meg]

I don't see that as a problem. It just seems to me that as far as elven society is concerned, women aren't presumed to get hysterical over little things or hold disproportionate grudges, or like dancing and flowers. Men aren't presumed fart and belch and scratch themselves inappropriately, or like sport and fast chariots. These are human stereotypes that simply don't exist for them; elves just see each other as people.

Of course, they actually are one sex or the other. But there is no particular way they're expected to act because of it. That's what I took V's comment about not being qualified to discuss gender traits to mean (Of course, it holds even more true for V, having spent the majority of his life hidden away in a tower).

That's what I was trying to say, except I wasn't very clear. Thanks!

[brionl]

Only Haley knows V's sex, and she says it's disturbing.

Hermaphrodite, anyone? Or maybe no equipment at all? Ken doll, folks.

Androgynous (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ANDROGYNOUS) is the word you're looking for there, not Ken doll.

Anyway, based on the last panel is this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0641.html) V is totally a dude. Only a guy could come up with that line.

[Mewtarthio]

Anyway, based on the last panel is this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0641.html) V is totally a dude. Only a guy could come up with that line.

Except it's a pretty accurate line, and if there's one thing we know about V, it's that V's a real stickler for accuracy.
Well, actually, if there's on thing we know about V, it's that V is obsessed with arcane power. That accuracy thing is probably somewhere around fifth place.

[Temotei]

Kyrie sounds like a girl name to me.

[Nimrod's Son]

Kyrie sounds like a girl name to me.
So does Suvie. That's kinda the point.

[Temotei]

So does Suvie. That's kinda the point.

Suvie is a pet name though. Kyrie...that's hard to think of a full name that could incorporate that. Plus, his/her full name was never mentioned, so it's assumed that Kyrie is his/her full name, right?

Suvie does sound feminine, but it's a pet name, slightly justifying it.

Not even close to a clean-cut conclusion (alliteration--whoo!), but a point to be brought up nonetheless.

[TheSummoner]

Inkyrius actually... Second panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0642.html)

That being said, I still believe V = Male, Kyrie = Female... Elves = Plants

[jlvm4]

I was re-reading the archives, and it appears V's children are "adopted progeny." Does this surprise anyone else? I mean, I don't remember that line (its #631).

Their being adopted is critical for the gender ambiguity theme. If they were biological children of his/her and his/her mate, then you know one is female and one is male. Maybe not which is which, but this way the combo could be anything...

[Meg]

Elves = Plants

But plants still have genders. (http://www.plantsgalore.com/articles/science/science-plant-gender-plantfacts.htm) :smallconfused:

[Nimrod's Son]

Suvie is a pet name though. Kyrie...that's hard to think of a full name that could incorporate that. Plus, his/her full name was never mentioned, so it's assumed that Kyrie is his/her full name, right?
Nope. "Kyrie" is short for Inkyrius. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0642.html) We have no evidence to suggest that anyone but V has ever called Inkyrius "Kyrie".

So they both have masculine-sounding names with feminine-sounding shortened forms, was what I was trying to get at. It's deliberately designed to obscure the issue, not to give out secret clues to the truth.

[Temotei]

Nope. "Kyrie" is short for Inkyrius. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0642.html) We have no evidence to suggest that anyone but V has ever called Inkyrius "Kyrie".

So they both have masculine-sounding names with feminine-sounding shortened forms, was what I was trying to get at. It's deliberately designed to obscure the issue, not to give out secret clues to the truth.

I missed that. :smallamused:

Well played. :smallwink:

[Zevox]

Their being adopted is critical for the gender ambiguity theme. If they were biological children of his/her and his/her mate, then you know one is female and one is male. Maybe not which is which, but this way the combo could be anything...
Technically, even if the children weren't adopted, there would remain the possibility of them being the same sex. This is a world with shape-shifting magic, after all. A simple Alter Self spell would allow at least a female-female couple to conceive easily, and depending on how pregnancy functioned with shape-shifting magic wearing off male-male may be possible too, or at least would be with the long-lasting Polymorph Any Object (although admittedly, due to the high level of that spell, it would be much less likely that it was the explanation).

Zevox

[martinkou]

Technically, even if the children weren't adopted, there would remain the possibility of them being the same sex. This is a world with shape-shifting magic, after all. A simple Alter Self spell would allow at least a female-female couple to conceive easily, and depending on how pregnancy functioned with shape-shifting magic wearing off male-male may be possible too, or at least would be with the long-lasting Polymorph Any Object (although admittedly, due to the high level of that spell, it would be much less likely that it was the explanation).

Zevox

Wow, that's going to revolutionize the cracking pairings industry!

[Temotei]

Wow, that's going to revolutionize the cracking pairings industry!

:smalleek:

[TheSummoner]

But plants still have genders. (http://www.plantsgalore.com/articles/science/science-plant-gender-plantfacts.htm) :smallconfused:

One plant has both male and female parts... as does one Elf. They plant their Elf-Seeds, go away to do whatever for a while, and come back once the Elf-Sprout has matured enough to leave the ground. They could, in theory, leave it there until maturity, but doing so would be incredibly risky for the Elf-Sprout and most parents are better than that.

[Meg]

Wow, that's going to revolutionize the cracking pairings industry!

Trust me, the last any of us need is more revolutionization. :smallsmile:

[ScottishDragon]

Nope. "Kyrie" is short for Inkyrius. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0642.html) We have no evidence to suggest that anyone but V has ever called Inkyrius "Kyrie".

So they both have masculine-sounding names with feminine-sounding shortened forms, was what I was trying to get at. It's deliberately designed to obscure the issue, not to give out secret clues to the truth.

you should put that in the things that you never noticed thread.

[RebelRogue]

It's like, common knowledge. Remember the Carrot and Raisin wars? Horrible times. Horrible until the Mayo people joined in. Then it became delicious.
Mayo?!? A bit of lemon or orange juice would be a better addition, if anything.

[Wind d8/d12]

I always considered Inkyrius and Vaarsuvius to be quasi-greek names.... and if you look at a lot of female and unisex green names the english speakers in the audience would probably think of them as Masculine sounding. Referring even the (hu)MANliest of elves as masculine seems pretty far off the mark in any case.
For all we know Vaarsuvius and Inkyrius could be a re-used names from their ancestors. That was used with either or both gender.

tl;dr We're not gonna logically conclude either Elf's gender.

[Spiky]

Technically, even if the children weren't adopted, there would remain the possibility of them being the same sex. This is a world with shape-shifting magic, after all. A simple Alter Self spell would allow at least a female-female couple to conceive easily, and depending on how pregnancy functioned with shape-shifting magic wearing off male-male may be possible too, or at least would be with the long-lasting Polymorph Any Object (although admittedly, due to the high level of that spell, it would be much less likely that it was the explanation).

Zevox

Thank you for trying to keep the thread on track.

[awibs]

wouldn't that mean Durkon is adventuring with a tree?

Plot twist, ahoy!

I am of the school that V's children being adopted is a plot device to further the ambiguity joke. The coloration thing works with that and also leaves wide open the possibility of the whole 4E jokes, with neither necessarily being "more" the reason the giant did it... laying the groundwork for multiple future jokes is NEVER something an author would do or anything.

Incidentally, just more information to add to the debate for the hell of it:

Supporting the idea that not all elves are genderless/androgynous/functionally hermaphroditic is that aside from Lirian, a number of the elves in her scenes in SoD are illustrated as having clear genders within the limits of the Giant's style. I didn't spoiler that, btw, because I don't think it particularly "gives away the plot" for anyone who hasn't read the book yet to know that some of the extras clearly have boobs. Also, V's comment about not being qualified to comment on gender traits, despite the fact that some elves clearly have them, seems to support to me the idea that it's just V that has the ambiguity thing going on.

V actually puts me in mind of the boy?girl?friend of one of my college roommates. This person, who we shall abrviate to D, has partial adrogen insensitivy syndrom (http://www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome-partial) which bascially means that his? her? body does not respond to testosterone. Fetuses develop as female by default if not otherwise affected by testosterone (http://www.medhunters.com/articles/intersexuality.html explains it pretty well, and has a list of different interesex conditions.) D has XY chromosomes and begun to produce testosterone on cue, but their body failed to respond to it, and they were born with indeterminate external genetalia, no uterus, and interior testes. "Corrective" surgery was performed to make D effectively female, because it was easier (easier to cut a little bit away than build up something not fully there) and she was raised socially as a girl, thinking she was an utterly normal girl.

Then she hit puberty and started turning into a boy.

D is not a particularly masculine looking man (partial androgen insensitivity, as opposed to full, means that (s)he responds somewhat to testosterone, just inadequately) but looks basically, when clothed, like a guy. A guy who isn't super tall and doesn't have much of a beard, but a guy. D publicly identifies as male to people he doesn't know, because it's just easier than explaining, but personally and sexually identifies as female. D generally avoided the subject if at all possible, commenting once that s(he) was unqualified to participate the gender debate. D's girlfriend, my college roommate, explained it as "she feels like she's trapped in a man's body, but only sort of, because she's not functionally a full man and can't just simply go about getting used to relating to people as a man. Most people are just grossed out, appalled, etc."

Like I said, just more information to use as you will in the endless debate.

[Sewblon]

Technically, even if the children weren't adopted, there would remain the possibility of them being the same sex. This is a world with shape-shifting magic, after all. A simple Alter Self spell would allow at least a female-female couple to conceive easily, and depending on how pregnancy functioned with shape-shifting magic wearing off male-male may be possible too, or at least would be with the long-lasting Polymorph Any Object (although admittedly, due to the high level of that spell, it would be much less likely that it was the explanation).

Zevox Now the only way we can ever know is for one of the characters we already know to bang Vaarsuvius.

[Hatman]

so. many. questions.

[Nimrod's Son]

you should put that in the things that you never noticed thread.
But I did notice it. :smalltongue:

[Lissou]

Now the only way we can ever know is for one of the characters we already know to bang Vaarsuvius.

Not really. They would know, maybe, but not us, unless they told us.