why is the warlock bad?

[Desmond Tiny]

I have played in some campaigns with awesome warlock characters. Why do people say they suck.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I think you might be confusing warlock with Truenamers. They're both "fake mages". Except warlocks, as you observed, can actually do things. People claim truenamers suck, and with good reason.

[Kylarra]

I have played in some campaigns with awesome warlock characters. Why do people say they suck.Warlock isn't strictly bad, it's just not "as good" as the primary fullcasters.

[Evard]

If this is 4e then its because as a striker they are kinda outclassed by the other striker classes if it's 3.5... then i have no clue lol

[Yuki Akuma]

Warlock is better than some classes, and isn't the worst by any rate. They have some nifty abilities - and if built right, their nifty abilities can be quite powerful.

But they pale in comparison with anyone who casts spells as a primary ability.

[HCL]

They don't suck.

They just can't use planar binding to create a wish farm while their undead army mines platinum from a demiplane of solid platinum made by genesis. Or cast spells while polymorphed/wildshaped into a monster. Or have a higher ab, ac, and saves than a fighter while slinging save or dies. Or quicken multiple spells per round. Or quadruple their party's wealth by level through item creation.

[Desmond Tiny]

It is 3.5 and if you run a lot of encounters per day they can be better than some spellcasters. Also the only reason people do not like them is because they cant destroy the world with cheese.

[HCL]

It is 3.5 and if you run a lot of encounters per day they can be better than some spellcasters.

If the druid runs out of wildshapes
If the wizard/sorc/erudite can't use ropetrick
if the cleric can't use persistent buffs

Then MAYBE the warlock pulls out ahead towards the 6th encounter. At will powers are generally not as strong as fire and forget spells and breaking wbl.


Warlock is really nice in the early levels though. Some of those least invocations can be really nasty at level 1 since they are a second level spell you can cheese all day.

[Draz74]

Warlocks built out of just Complete Arcane, with no powergaming, are kind of lacking a bite in combat. Doing normal Eldritch Blast damage round after round, even if it never misses, just isn't that powerful an attack. And the other tricks the Warlock gets are few in number, especially if they spend a few of them on personal mobility/defense or "trap" invocations (Stony Grasp, Hideous Blow ...)

Now, they're ok if you select their powers very carefully. With some splatbooking (Eldritch Glaive, Hellfire Warlock, Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest) with DM permission, etc.), they become solidly Tier 3 strength.

[AslanCross]

While the warlock can go on all day, they lack versatility unless you pump up their UMD. (They have EXTREMELY SLOW AND LIMITED Invocation learning.) It's a class that can be fun and effective without being overpowered if you know what you're doing. I don't think it sucks. It just really isn't as good as the big three. Like everything else.

[Moff Chumley]

In 4e, there is absolutely no reason to play a Warlock rather than a Sorcerer. (Chaos Bolt >>>> Eldritch Blast)

[Zaydos]

I had a party with a wizard/druid/arcane hierophant and a warlock. Complete Arcane and Dragon Magic and MiC/core was all the warlock used. He was a defensive build and didn't get Dragon Magic till late so he had nothing for strength and no weapon finesse so that if they had good touch AC he wouldn't hit with eldritch glaive but 1 or 2 times. Even so he was the only party member to be able to survive the arcane hierophant if the hierophant went rogue. Not that the hierophant was optimized by any means (still the most powerful character) just that the warlock wouldn't/couldn't die. He was a cockroach (and I hate rings of evasion).

So I like the class. Not as strong as a full caster, and not the best offensively but binding blast (Complete Mage, at high levels) can be fun, and so can Beshadowed Blast at much lower levels. (Last character, okay DMPC, I played was a warlock, he was fun and competent).

[Desmond Tiny]

What could I do to make the warlock better as a homebrew class?

[Zaydos]

Maybe up eldritch blast damage a bit (9d6 is weaker than a 10th level wizard's orb spell; only averages 31.5 damage) and give them more invocations to choose from.

[tyckspoon]

What could I do to make the warlock better as a homebrew class?

Most of the tools you need are already there in the chassis. The major problems are a very limited pool of invocations and that Eldritch Blast becomes quite dull and not very powerful pretty rapidly. So- more invocations known and more invocations to choose from (creating a new invocation is as simple as picking a spell and adding a moderate 'sinister' side effect to it. Ref- the Wall of Fire invocation, the Darkness invocation, the Black Tentacles invocation.. you can try for more unique stuff, but that's the quick-and-dirty way to expand the list.) and do something for Eldritch Blast. Just changing Blast Essences and Blast Shapes to a separate Improvements Known track would help, so that Warlocks are no longer pulling both their Cool Tricks and improvements to their primary attack method from the same limited resources. Around about levels.. oh.. 8 and.. maybe 14.. the Warlock should gain the ability to fire another Blast, probably as a full action.

[Foryn Gilnith]

If you just want "better", throw them a couple more invocations. Srsly, warlocks are fun, and if they want to be powergamed they twink out UMD. They're fine.

[Sir Homeslice]

In 4e, there is absolutely no reason to play a Warlock rather than a Sorcerer. (Chaos Bolt >>>> Eldritch Blast)

I disagree, 4e Warlocks are extremely potent at what they do, damage woes aside.

[Jack_Banzai]

I disagree, 4e Warlocks are extremely potent at what they do, damage woes aside.

A 4e Feylock can teleport more than anyone in the game. There is no comparison. Which makes them incredibly sneaky pseudo-controllers when you take into account the powers that gain bonuses from Fey Pact. Maybe you underperform in damage, but you can really tie stuff up.

[Desmond Tiny]

I want to make warlocks better so visit these 2 threads I created having to do with invocations and give me advice/invocations.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136849
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136851

[Demons_eye]

If the druid runs out of wildshapes
If the wizard/sorc/erudite can't use ropetrick
if the cleric can't use persistent buffs

Then MAYBE the warlock pulls out ahead towards the 6th encounter. At will powers are generally not as strong as fire and forget spells and breaking wbl.


Warlock is really nice in the early levels though. Some of those least invocations can be really nasty at level 1 since they are a second level spell you can cheese all day.

Granted I have not played that many high level games, I have never seen all day wildshape druid, nor ropetrick abuse, nor codzila.

[olentu]

Granted I have not played that many high level games, I have never seen all day wildshape druid, nor ropetrick abuse, nor codzila.

Well it is what 24 hours of wildshape at 8 assuming one does not change forms and does not sleep. If there is 8 hours of down time one could get an extra form change in there.

[Zaydos]

At levels 6ish warlocks still have nice tricks (at will invisibility/fly). But it's at these levels wizards start pulling ahead of everyone and leave warlocks behind as well. They compare closer to sorcerers although at Lv 10 with overland flight they take one of their nicest tricks too (although fly 40-ft average is rather limited compared to as ground speed good, coupled with boosts of striding/springing for 40-ft good).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Iterative Attacks with their EB would significantly aid them in their damage output without seriously unbalancing the class...

[Mando Knight]

If the druid runs out of wildshapes

If the Druid has Natural Spell, why would he? At sixth level, he's able to remain in one form for up to six hours, or twelve hours by spending both Wild Shape uses. That increases to 21 hours/day at level 7, and 24/7 beginning at level 8. If a Druid thinks he's going to be fighting for an extended period of time and he's at least level 6, odds are he's not going to quit being his favorite wild shape, especially if he's good at picking an all-purpose form for his spell selection.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Many druids are too attached to civilization and want to do things like talk or barter. >_<

[RandomNPC]

I'm in the camp with the people who want to give the warlock full attack options, that seems like it'll work out nice. but remember, the warlock is meant to be a trick monkey, not a ranged fighter.

[Break]

They aren't horrible, but their limited invocations known really cuts down on their versatility.

Pumping up the invocation progression to 1 new invocation per level, in addition to creating a few new ones, will do a lot for Warlocks. Giving them a full-attack option with Eldritch Blast on top of that might also work, but I have a feeling that more than a few glaivelock players would complain. :smallbiggrin: Even so, the different options available to glaivelocks and rangelocks won't obsolete the former, I figure.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Many druids are too attached to civilization and want to do things like talk or barter. >_<That's what Speak with Animals and the Wizard's Familiar are for. Or playing a Ghostwise Halfling. Or whatever Buomen subrace it was that got Telepathy. Or hell, a custom pen and a pad of paper.

[hiryuu]

Iterative Attacks with their EB would significantly aid them in their damage output without seriously unbalancing the class...

This. Played with this for a while in our games, it's never been all that bad. Pretty decent, actually, we've had people actually play warlocks here and there.

[nightwyrm]

A 4e Feylock can teleport more than anyone in the game. There is no comparison. Which makes them incredibly sneaky pseudo-controllers when you take into account the powers that gain bonuses from Fey Pact. Maybe you underperform in damage, but you can really tie stuff up.

A problem is that they're classify as strikers, but if you play warlocks as high durability, single-target controllers, they're just fine.

[Jack_Banzai]

A problem is that they're classify as strikers, but if you play warlocks as high durability, single-target controllers, they're just fine.

Hear hear.

[erikun]

[3.5e] Warlocks work just fine, capable of tossing spells and damaging effects around all day. They won't do as much damage as a Warmage with remaining spells, but they still work well. Warlocks look bad compared to a Wizard, but that's because a Wizard is considerably overpowered compared to anything else.

The biggest problem is that Eldrich Blast requires a ranged touch attack which is also resisted by spell resistance.

[4e] Warlocks are a heavy Striker/Controller mix, meaning they deal less damage than a pure striker such as a Ranger, Rogue, or Sorcerer. If you only have one striker, then a Warlock will be dealing noticably less damage than several of the other striker options.

If the Warlock is the second striker in the party, then their controllery powers provide a lot of crowd control along with high damage potential.

[Soranar]

warlock invocations have fairly high DCs , and since you can just blast them forever your enemies will fail their save at some point

being able to fly and having damage resistance is nothing to scoff at either

there's also the fact that , once you get high enough, your totally ignore spell resistance

they have few tricks , but they are very useful tricks and touch attacks nearly always hit

they're also a lot easier to play for players without experience : you never have to worry about future encounters and you can learn quickly how to use your abilities as you gain them

you also won't have to waste money on magic weapons and you can concentrate on everything else and your UMD should be really high

oddly enough I find warlocks work better against crowds of lower level characters than against 1 high CR minion since they usually have lower saving throws

having the ability to create any magic item can be really useful to a party

finally you don't many feats on casting

[taltamir]

warlocks aren't bad, warlocks are tier 4.
they are tier 4 because they lack versatility. They are one trick ponies (well, few tricks ponies). But they are good one trick ponies that do good damage and are effective in combat.

they biggest advantage is that they can cast anything they know at will, in exchange they know the least amount of spells from any caster class, and do the least amount of direct damage per attack.

The problem with this is, when the wizard or sorcerer needs to actually do something in combat, he wants it to be as effective as possible, doing more than 2x the damage per shot than a warlock, or using a variety of spells with both utility, save or lose/die/suck and a wide variety of effects, which they can change out, makes them a lot more versatile and useful... and when they run out, they run away with teleport or flight or invisibility or rope trick and rest for the rest of the day.

that being said, warlocks are a lot more sensible, you are not gonna break the game. like the martial classes, your abilities are at will, so pacing can be the same, and while your few tricks mimic spells, they are not bad spells and with only a handful of them (12 total at level 20) your DM going to know what to expect of you.

[Knaight]

To echo what people have said before me, it isn't as much that the warlock is bad, as that the warlock really isn't that good. Although they can be fun to play, and can be absolutely brutal at low levels, compliments of early flight. The best way to fix the warlock is to ban the big 5(one of which was a variant anyways), bump their BAB to acceptable levels, etc. Either allow full attack Eldritch Blast, or bump the die up a bit. d8 is fine if optimization is uncommon, otherwise d12 or even 2d8 is better.

On another note, if you start a sentence with the dX notation, should you capitalize the "D"?

[Optimystik]

Unlimited dispelling and counterspelling? Yes please!

[Adumbration]

Unlimited dispelling and counterspelling? Yes please!

Unfortunately, you can't use spell-like abilities to counterspell. Strange but true.

[Zaydos]

One invocation in Complete Mage specifically counterspells spells level 8 or lower. Don't get it till 16th level though.

[Temotei]

They don't suck.

They just can't use planar binding to create a wish farm while their undead army mines platinum from a demiplane of solid platinum made by genesis. Or cast spells while polymorphed/wildshaped into a monster. Or have a higher ab, ac, and saves than a fighter while slinging save or dies. Or quicken multiple spells per round. Or quadruple their party's wealth by level through item creation.

I thought genesis couldn't make a plane of precious metal.

[Radiun]

Unfortunately, you can't use spell-like abilities to counterspell. Strange but true.

Do explain.
(Voracious Dispelling mentions no such clause)

[Adumbration]

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell:

Relevant part bolded. Source. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Warlock SLA's aren't quite like that though. For one, they require somatic components.

[Optimystik]

Unfortunately, you can't use spell-like abilities to counterspell. Strange but true.

I'm assuming you don't have Complete Mage. Caster's Lament is one of the best Dark Invocations around.

[sonofzeal]

Also, I think the specific rule in Dispel Magic trumps the general rule in SLAs about counterspelling.

[Boci]

Also, I think the specific rule in Dispel Magic trumps the general rule in SLAs about counterspelling.

Then there wouldn't be a dark invocation that allowed you to counter spells.

[Zaq]

I think the "SLAs can't counterspell" rule is more "you can't use your Darkness invocation to counter the Darkness spell your opponent is casting" more than "You can't use this invocation which says that it functions as Dispel Magic "as the spell" to actually do what the spell says it can do."

But that's me.

[erikun]

On another note, if you start a sentence with the dX notation, should you capitalize the "D"?
Given that starting a sentence with "iPod" you do not capitalize the "i", I think that using dX will be just fine. Then again, quite a bit of english grammar can get away with being informal.

[Boci]

I think the "SLAs can't counterspell" rule is more "you can't use your Darkness invocation to counter the Darkness spell your opponent is casting" more than "You can't use this invocation which says that it functions as Dispel Magic "as the spell" to actually do what the spell says it can do."

But that's me.

Good point, that is a logical interpretation and I hadn't considered that, but the invocation in Complete Mage implies otherwise.

[Radiun]

Good point, that is a logical interpretation and I hadn't considered that, but the invocation in Complete Mage implies otherwise.

Not quite as that invocation mimics Break Enchantment and then has the (greater )counterspelling function added on instead of only being greater dispel magic

[deuxhero]

Hmm, are there any items that increase invocations known? If not, what would a good price point be for them?

[Boci]

Hmm, are there any items that increase invocations known? If not, what would a good price point be for them?

10k, item mimics the feat extra invocation. Ask your DM to house rule that said feat allows you to choose an invocation of the highest catogory available to you. It won't be OP.

[deuxhero]

Where?

(and knowstones mimic extra spell, but aren't anywhere near that much in price or effect, hell I could get an at will magic item for less by those guidelines)

[Boci]

Where?

(and knowstones mimic extra spell, but aren't anywhere near that much in price or effect, hell I could get an at will magic item for less by those guidelines)

An item that grants a feat with no or little preqs costs 10k, so by the guidelines for custom items that's how much it should cost. The feat is from Complete arcane.

[HCL]

I thought genesis couldn't make a plane of precious metal.

"rare materials" is subjective

[Desmond Tiny]

If I give it 1 invocation per level and boost damage to 11d6 at lvl 20 and make extra ivocation for invocations up to the highest level you know would the warlock be overpowered.

[Optimystik]

If I give it 1 invocation per level and boost damage to 11d6 at lvl 20 and make extra ivocation for invocations up to the highest level you know would the warlock be overpowered.

They would still be far beneath what a Sorcerer can do, so I would say no.

[deuxhero]

Unless it has to do with the new abilities (like you gave them a no save-die one), no.

[Boci]

If I give it 1 invocation per level and boost damage to 11d6 at lvl 20 and make extra ivocation for invocations up to the highest level you know would the warlock be overpowered.

Personally I'd up ED to 10d6 (same as SA) and allow them to full attack with it.

[soir8]

How well would making using an invocation a move action upon hitting a certain lvl work? That'd let warlocks use 2 eldritch blasts a round at higher lvls, but would it be a problem with other invocations?

This thread is quite relevant to me, as I have a warlock in the campaign I've started recently.

[Anonymouswizard]

My fix for warlocks:

[Optimystik]

How well would making using an invocation a move action upon hitting a certain lvl work? That'd let warlocks use 2 eldritch blasts a round at higher lvls, but would it be a problem with other invocations?

This thread is quite relevant to me, as I have a warlock in the campaign I've started recently.

I would let them take Quicken Spell-Like Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#quickenSpellLikeAbility) for their EB, but increase the uses per day. That would allow them to fire off two per round.

[JaronK]

Warlocks suck because the people who say they suck are comparing them to full Tier 1 and 2 casters. Compared to most classes however they're fine. Since I personally think the T1 and 2 casters are overpowered anyway, I consider it a mark of being balanced if you suck compared to them.

JaronK

[Blas_de_Lezo]

I was playing a 3.5 human warlock, named Morn de Brak. I was the star of the party. Starting at level 3, with a touche range attack that you don't run out of, and my shatter invocation (baleful utterance), my DM was all mad at me, because I always shattered the clubs of the ogres we fought, and the fighters of my party finished them off quickly.
My other invocation was entropic warding, so I was almost always far from melee combat, and ranged attacks were no problem for me. Also I left no tracks 24/7, which is kinda cool.

Also, we fought a troll with regeneration. We didn't have any fire to burn it down nor wizard, so the party let me like half an hour, with the troll unconscious, constantly casting eldritch blast, like a dark water fountain flowing, with my hand extended and a constant flow of crackling black energy from my hand to the troll (roleplayed, allowed by DM), while my party went to chop some wood to burn it down.

The only drawback is that you may get bored of always using the same invocations, but I didn't just because I give him a high intelligence to have lots of skill points, so I could also be useful outside combat (Bluff, Intimidate, Sense Motive, etc). One of the best things about the warlock is that if you want, you may dump Charisma, and choose all no-save invocations. Anyway, not recommended. Charisma is great for social skills, so at least start with 14.

I also spent a feat in a scimitar (Morn de Brak had str 14) , because sometimes was cooler to finish off weak enemies with a weapon than with the eldritch blast. And also,sometimes showing off you warlock forbidden power may be a problem, so a good weapon is always handy.

If you play a warlock as a wizard, you lose.
If you try to play a warlock as a unlimited sorcerer, you lose.
If you play a warlock as a warlock (there are some good optimization handbooks out there), you'll have so much fun and you are totally capable at combat.