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Ahab
2009-12-31, 11:30 PM
If you were to make the ultimate warrior, what would it be? You have twenty levels, they have to be pure human, and you can use NO classes with any type of magic or psionic powers. Also, no magic items are allowed either. Pick the feats, skills, etc. to shape the most powerful combatant you can imagine.

Only WotC material allowed, but no ToB... because that basically borders on magic.

deuxhero
2009-12-31, 11:32 PM
But Warblade doesn't get any supernatural disiplines without Martial Study/magic items.

It likely goes to the ubercharger anyways.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-31, 11:38 PM
If you were to make the ultimate warrior, what would it be? You have twenty levels, they have to be pure human, and you can use NO classes with any type of magic or psionic powers. Also, no magic items are allowed either. Pick the feats, skills, etc. to shape the most powerful combatant you can imagine.

Only WotC material allowed, but no ToB... because that basically borders on magic.

So, no magic items, must be human, and cant take any magic.

I suspect it really doesn't matter, because this "Ultimate combatant" is pretty much screwed against a level 5 mage with Fly and Protection from Arrows.




Commoner/Survivor. With a pointy stick.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-31, 11:50 PM
No ToB, because "Hit someone really hard" and "Spring into combat" are totally magic.

What? You can do that with feats? Like the Fighter gets? Wow. uess the Fighter is borderline magical.

In this case, I'd go with Raptoran Fighter Dngeoncrasher, armed with a Lance and a Footbow. You basically slam people into the ground, or into walls, depending on whether your indoors or outdoors, and you get the best bow in the game to keep yourself out of range.

Edit:Wait, human? That sucks. You're basically left with an Ubercharger or a Spiked Chain Tripper. Good luck.

AslanCross
2010-01-01, 12:07 AM
Jack B. Quick fighter build. More fun than an ubercharger but pretty awesome as well.

But really, the warblade has no supernatural abilities at all.

Hitting someone for +6d6 damage at Lv 10 is pretty low compared to what a barbarian using Shock Trooper can do at the same level. That's an average of 21 damage. An ubercharger shock trooper can do at least 50% more damage, and likely much much more.

So I don't see the point of this "no ToB" thing. The only class that has (Su) abilities in ToB is the Swordsage, with its shadow or fire manipulation maneuvers. If "hitting it really hard" is magic, then you'll have to ban Shock Trooper too.

Starscream
2010-01-01, 12:13 AM
Believe it or not, if simply go by the power rankings, Rogue is the most powerful non ToB class that uses no magic.

Next is Scout followed by Barbarian. Since Scout's main trick is just another version of Sneak Attack, I'd go with some sort of Rogue/Barbarian hybrid.

Rogues have lousy hit dice and saves, but they get good skills and sneak attack. Barbarians have high HD and a full BAB, and add raging to the equation.

Combining them isn't very intuitive, but I suppose you could make something mostly Barbarian with a few levels of Rogue to allow sneakiness and SA damage. You hide in the shadows, rage, charge, and do as much damage in round 1 as possible. You'd need pounce to make it work, and what happens in the round after that is anybody's guess.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-01, 12:16 AM
I could see that...rogues have crazy utility, and a bucketload of skillpoints. Hide is remarkably useful in quantity, evasion is awesome, and you can build some decent sneak attack builds with them.

If you pump hide enough to reliably snipe, you could have lots of fun with non-magical beatstick types who are basically screwed against you, but that is a bit harder without magic items.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-01, 12:20 AM
Factotum ignoring the SLA and SU abilities does a lot, with Int to damage, Hit, and 1d6+HD bonus damage, not to mention free actions. Better with Elf than human, though.

Zincorium
2010-01-01, 12:53 AM
Rogue/swashbuckler with daring outlaw, plus a bit of barbarian for pounce and rage? Nothing prevents you, by RAW, from doing sneak attack damage while raging. Add in the Craven feat for additional, non dice damage sources, either the ferocity or whirling rage variant.

Something perhaps like Rogue 3/barbarian 1/swashbuckler 3/exotic weapon master 1/swashbuckler 12. Barbarian uses whirling rage and lion totem variants.

Wielding a spiked chain, you get strength 1.5 to damage, intelligence to damage, 9d6 sneak attack damage, +18 damage from Craven, the entire power attack line with the advantage of almost full BAB, and three attacks at your full attack bonus plus iteratives.

Anyone got some improvements?

Gpope
2010-01-01, 12:56 AM
Believe it or not, if simply go by the power rankings, Rogue is the most powerful non ToB class that uses no magic.

Use Magic Device. If Rogues didn't use magic, they wouldn't be rated so highly.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-01, 12:56 AM
Lightning Maces with +1 Aptitude Kukris, DoD, and similar probably kills anything both vulnerable to melee attacks and reachable in melee, assuming you grab as many AB boosters as you can, the feats to ignore DR, and Pierce Magical Concealment.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-01, 12:58 AM
Lightning Maces with +1 Aptitude Kukris

I'm pretty sure that fails the above "no magical items" requirement.

It is a stupid requirement, though.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-01, 12:59 AM
I'm pretty sure that fails the above "no magical items" requirement.

It is a stupid requirement, though.Toss in Kensai, then.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-01, 01:00 AM
does this by chance have anything to do with Minmax from the webcomic goblins?

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-01, 01:04 AM
Only WotC material allowed, but no ToB... because that basically borders on magic.

Are monks ok?

Roam7
2010-01-01, 01:20 AM
I'm with many of the other posters here about ToB, the Warblade does not border on magic at all, though the Swordsage and Crusader can.

2xMachina
2010-01-01, 01:30 AM
No Magic Items? VoP sounds good then.

Starscream
2010-01-01, 01:42 AM
Use Magic Device. If Rogues didn't use magic, they wouldn't be rated so highly.

Well, every class takes a hit to power when you remove the ability to use magic items. I wouldn't say that a rogue is any more reliant on wands than a fighter is on magic plate mail.

And yeah, VoP is going to be pretty much mandatory for a lot of builds. It's nowhere near as powerful as magic items, but way better than mundane ones.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-01, 01:50 AM
Well, every class takes a hit to power when you remove the ability to use magic items. I wouldn't say that a rogue is any more reliant on wands than a fighter is on magic plate mail.

And yeah, VoP is going to be pretty much mandatory for a lot of builds. It's nowhere near as powerful as magic items, but way better than mundane ones.

Rogues don't just use wands. They use just about anything. Scrolls, Wands, Alignment restricted items, items that require a class feature, or some other ability... Anything.

mabriss lethe
2010-01-01, 01:51 AM
barbarian dipping in marshal with leadership?

Zeta Kai
2010-01-01, 02:03 AM
Well, if you eliminate classes with any form of arcane, divine, psionic, or ToB-based abilities, that knocks out everything the top 3 class tiers. Going down to tier #4, we have:

Rogue
Barbarian
Warlock
Warmage
Scout
Ranger
Hexblade
Adept
Spellthief
Marshal
Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant)

So, I guess you could pick one of the remaining classes (Rogue, Barbarian, Scout, Marshal, & DC Fighter), optimize the crap out it, and...

...You'll still probably get trounced by casters from the top 3 tiers. Good luck with that.

Demons_eye
2010-01-01, 02:11 AM
Totemist.....?

Mushroom Ninja
2010-01-01, 02:20 AM
A Swift hunter with Greater Manyshot could be fun.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-01, 02:38 AM
Halfling Wilderness Rogue
with Rogue Racial Substitution levels,
Ranger Hide in Plain Sight (Ex) ability (selected as Rogue special abilities)

Darkstalker, Able Sniper, Woodland Archer Feats.

Round 1: Full attack snipe.
Round 2: Full Attack snipe + move, or single attack snipe + double move

Snipe penalty to hide is -6. Chew things up.

FlamingKobold
2010-01-01, 03:32 AM
Truenamer? :smallsmile:

Nah, I'm going to go with Totemist or Incarnate (provided we don't get to cheesy). Otherwise, I'm going with an ubercharger, jack b quick, lightning mace, or good old VoP Kensai (Not really, but they're pretty fun).

Alternately, optimizing the crap out af an archer is fun.

icefractal
2010-01-01, 03:45 AM
Without any magic items, the Rogue is going to suffer - no Blink, no Invisibility, no Grease on demand - you're limited to flanking for Sneak Attack, and since sans-magic your best bet to hit is acid flasks, you just don't have many good options.

taltamir
2010-01-01, 08:13 AM
Use Magic Device. If Rogues didn't use magic, they wouldn't be rated so highly.

ah. ninjad...
and don't forget, the ratings rate versatility and ability to solve problems... not combat prowess.
A rogue is better because while a fighter or a barbarian could kill it, a rogue can also come up with a diplomatic solution, or use hide/move silently to assassinate the enemy leader in the night, or use it to rescue the princess without a fight. A fighter? can't.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-01, 10:03 AM
Are monks ok?

I never thought I'd see this in an Ultimate Combatant thread, =).

VoP would be good, if you can't have magical items anyway. Likely that plus any class from tier 4 listed would work. My bet would be on a fighter/barb hybrid or a dungeoncrasher.

taltamir
2010-01-01, 10:43 AM
since you are barred from having any magic items at all whatsoever, VoP is the perfect feat, because the requirements of the challenge already saddle you with VoP.
Although a monk will not benefit from this as much as a better class... (better class being, any other class that hits things with the exceptions of soulblade and warrior.)

Soranar
2010-01-01, 10:45 AM
human without any magic well I guess that makes Vow of Poverty pretty powerful

since you prevent spellcasting I could still make a ranger without enough wisdom to cast spells or make

also there is a variant that doesn't get combat feats but can shapeshift instead (progession is the same as druid but you can only shapeshift into small or medium creatures, you also gain rapid movement as barbarian)

STATS (28 pts buy)
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 18
WIS 8
CHA 8

italics= exalted bonus feats from vow of poverty

1 Monk sacred vow, able learner, bonus feat kung-fu genius
2 Ranger
3 Ranger vow of povertynymph's kiss
4 Ranger
5 Ranger Touch of Golden Ice
6 Ranger alertness gain wildshape 1/day
7 Master of many forms Vow of Abstinence
8 Master of many forms
9 Master of many forms weapon focus unarmed strikeVow of Chastity
10 Master of many forms
11 Master of many forms Vow of Purity
12 Master of many forms combat expertise
13 Master of many forms exalted wildshape
14 Master of many forms
15 Master of many forms improved grapple nimbus of light
16 Master of many forms
17 Nature's Warrior bonus feat: Claws of the Grizzly stigmata
18 Nature's Warrior improved trip
19 Nature's Warrior bonus feat: Armor of the Crocodile servant of the heavens
20 Nature's Warrior

kung-fu genius , use INT instead of WIS for bonus AC and stunning fists

shapes allow you to be fairly adaptive to whatever is happening (flying wizards will have a challenge albeit only after you get your first wilshape and you still can't do much against timestop but your saves are pretty good with all the vows)


you get tons of skillpoints since you only focus on INT and you have able learner (no UMD but you still serve as a skillmonkey with human+ nymph's kiss to boot)

size modifiers can make very good bonuses on trip/grapple attempts and vow of poverty makes your unarmed strikes (and natural strikes) +5 weapons good aligned

Arakune
2010-01-01, 10:49 AM
Are monks ok?

Monks have supernatural abilities. So it's a (probably) no.

deuxhero
2010-01-01, 11:31 AM
Yeah, wildshape isn't magic, so ranger, spellless wildshape ranger is likely the best you get.

Yuki Akuma
2010-01-01, 11:33 AM
Yeah, wildshape isn't magic, so ranger, spellless wildshape ranger is likely the best you get.

Yyyes is it. It's an Su ability.

Mongoose87
2010-01-01, 11:40 AM
Yyyes is it. It's an Su ability.

It kinda violates the spirit of the exercise, as well.

deuxhero
2010-01-01, 11:40 AM
If you were to make the ultimate warrior, what would it be? You have twenty levels, they have to be pure human, and you can use NO classes with any type of magic or psionic powers. Also, no magic items are allowed either. Pick the feats, skills, etc. to shape the most powerful combatant you can imagine.

Only WotC material allowed, but no ToB... because that basically borders on magic.

Only rules on magic and ToB, nothing on (Su) abilities.

In fact, if we say you can avoid using a half casters spells and qualify, you can take a wizard into archmage and use exclusively it's (Su) or spell likes.

Amphetryon
2010-01-01, 11:46 AM
Totemist, Incarnate, and Soulborn all shape the raw magic of the universe. Clearly they're not allowed any more than any casting class, ToB class, or class with UMD. I would say a Paladin's Divine Grace ability is pretty close to magical, so that's likely out. Ditto a Barbarian's Rage, especially given the Pounce and Whirling Frenzy ACFs and the built-in DR as you progress. "No Barbarians allowed" is therefore a reasonable interpretation. A non-casting Ranger can track a spider across a stone ceiling with a modicum of effort, which exceeds real-world limitations to a degree that must border on magical, so I'd be hard-pressed to allow a Ranger in the discussion even before the Animal Companion arrives....

Looks like we're down to 'some guys hitting each other with sticks in the backyard.' :smallwink:

Soranar
2010-01-01, 11:47 AM
with his rules even a Paladin is banned, you can't have much flavor when you don't pick your race and nearly every class or ability is banned

Androgeus
2010-01-01, 11:54 AM
Looks like we're down to 'some guys hitting each other with sticks in the backyard.' :smallwink:

Those sticks look a bit suspicious if you ask me...

Draz74
2010-01-01, 12:20 PM
but no ToB... because that basically borders on magic.

Murn, my completely nonmagical (except for equipment) Tome of Battle build who was designed precisely to be "the ultimate combatant" the thread is looking for, scoffs in disgust at this prejudice and makes me lose all interest in this thread.

(He's Swordsage 2/Warblade 11/Fighter 2/Master of Nine 5. Yes, even with the Swordsage levels, he has no abilities that are magical whatsoever.)

awa
2010-01-01, 12:58 PM
I think a scout 19 / shadow dancer 1 with spring attack and dark stalker
is a brutal combination you max out your hide/move silent sneak into range attack use your second move to hide again. If totemist is allowed a small dip will allow you to give your self a substantial boost to your stealth abbilities as well as giving your self more options just be carfull with your skills to make shure you still have max ranks in hide/move silently.

The build allows the charecter to easily destroy most foes becuase only specialized characters even have a chance of finding the charecter.

The Glyphstone
2010-01-01, 01:30 PM
Or someone who just readies an action to charge/attack when they reveal themselves - their readied action will go off before the scout gets a chance to hide again. Or someone who just walks to where there aren't any shadows to hide in.

boomwolf
2010-01-01, 01:38 PM
With no magic items or anything you might as well go VoP monk, monk is actually damn good if you take out casters from the equation.

Flickerdart
2010-01-01, 01:44 PM
With no magic items or anything you might as well go VoP monk, monk is actually damn good if you take out casters from the equation.
No, because Monks need magic items more than anybody else. Even the aforementioned Scout/Shadowdancer would destroy such a Monk.

Siosilvar
2010-01-01, 02:00 PM
Only WotC material allowed, but no ToB... because that basically borders on magic.
:smallconfused: What.

Desert Wind: Magic, okay.
Devoted Spirit: Magic, okay.
Diamond Mind: By focusing, you can stab things better and dodge things better. Borderline, maybe.
Iron Heart: Oh look, I can hit things harder. IHS is heroically shrugging things off.
Setting Sun: Come on, come get me! *sidestep, fling*
Shadow Hand: Magic, okay.
Stone Dragon: Least magic. You can hit stuff harder and get hit less hard.
Tiger Claw: I know how to kill you with two swords and jump really high!
White Raven: Inspiring your teammates. Borderline magic, some of it.

That's 3 magic and 2 borderline disciplines, out of 9 total.

Crusader: Magic, divine.
Swordsage: Can be magic if you use Desert Wind and most of the Shadow Hand maneuvers.
Warblade: Not even close. Maybe borderline if you focus on Diamond Mind. Other than that, you know how to use a sword really well.

1 and a half magic classes, of 3.

Okay, so half the book (ish) is "magic". Compare that to the PHB, where 8 out of 11 classes use magic in some form or another.

awa
2010-01-01, 02:03 PM
readied action if i recall correctly are only standard actions so no charge. Or you could just stay more 30 feet away and shoot. And shadow dancers only need to be within 10 feet of shadow. So in a flat open field with no standing structures, trees, shrubs, hes got a little bit of a problem once the fight starts but hes sneaky and fast and travels quickly over rough terrain he can just run away and choose to fight when its not a featureless map with no shadows at all.

For added fun hide in your opponents shadow note some dm wont allow this.

Of course even if there is absolutely no where to hide at all higher speed + a ranged weapon means that unless the opponent has a longer ranged weapon you can just shoot and run out of their range
(shot on the run, i was saying the wrong feat)

Milskidasith
2010-01-01, 02:06 PM
Okay, so half the book (ish) is "magic". Compare that to the PHB, where 8 out of 11 classes use magic in some form or another.

10 out of 11, actually. Rage is clearly unlike what happens in real life, especially with whirling frenzy, and rogue's can dodge a fireball entirely in a closed space while tied up (at a -5 dex penalty, admittedly). Only the fighter gets away with it, and that's if he's not hitting things really hard with shock trooper.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-01-01, 02:13 PM
Shadow Hand: Magic, okay.

I dunno, you can wing some of it as mundane. I'm playing a Shadow Hand/Setting Sun focused Unarmed Swordsage right now, and I'm trying to wing it as mundane as possible. Hand of Death, Strength Draining Strike, etc.? Hitting pressure points. It's surprising how much of it can be mundane if you just twist it into hitting pressure points. :smalltongue:


readied action if i recall correctly are only standard actions so no charge.

Couldn't you just ready the standard action charge? :smallconfused:

Siosilvar
2010-01-01, 02:15 PM
10 out of 11, actually. Rage is clearly unlike what happens in real life, especially with whirling frenzy, and rogue's can dodge a fireball entirely in a closed space while tied up (at a -5 dex penalty, admittedly). Only the fighter gets away with it, and that's if he's not hitting things really hard with shock trooper.

Eh, that's not outright magic. You can fluff away rage and Evasion as being just that awesome.

You could probably do the same with a ranger who chooses the right spells, too.

Milskidasith
2010-01-01, 02:17 PM
Eh, that's not outright magic. You can fluff away rage and Evasion as being just that awesome.

You could probably do the same with a ranger who chooses the right spells, too.

You *could* refluff it, true. But we already have ToB banned for being "too magical" so things that are crazier than the ToB (I can get really angry and swing my sword faster at will! I can dodge fireballs when there's no space to dodge into!), they have to be banned.

*This is mostly just me mocking the really, really restrictive stipulations we have from the OP.*

Also, guys, VoP is definitely magical, so while it would be awesome, we can't take it.

awa
2010-01-01, 02:20 PM
It looks like your only allowed to do that if you are prohibited from doing both your actions such as it being in a surprise round, you being slowed or a zombie.
So you might be able to do im not positive but the scouts faster and by using a ranged weapon can stay far enough away that charging (becuase its only a half charge when used as a standard action) wont get you their in one round.

Oh also my scout has two forms of hide in plain sight so you need to find a non natural setting with no shadows to stop him from hiding so besides a parking lot their are few situations he wont be able to hide.

I'm not familiar enough with vov of poverty to decide if a crossbow (simple weapon) and rapid reload would be worth taking

Hawk7915
2010-01-01, 02:37 PM
How about the infamous "Parry" build, with a dash of Swashbuckler?

Stats (28 pt buy)
STR: 10
DEX: 16
CON: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 10
CHA: 12

Build:
1: Swashbuckler 1 (Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise, Improved Initiative, Dodge, Flaw: Shaky)
2: Swashbuckler 2
3: Swashbuckler 3 (Improved Feint)
4: Rogue 1 (+1 Dex)
5: Rogue 2
6: Rogue 3 (Daring Outlaw)
7: Rogue 4
8: Rogue 5 (+1 Dex)
9: Rogue 6 (Improved Combat Expertise)
10: Rogue 7
11: Rogue 8
12: Rogue 9 (Mobility, +1 Dex)
13: Rogue 10 (Crippling Strike)
14: Rogue 11
15: Rogue 12 (Elusive Target)
16: Rogue 13 (Defensive Roll, Dex +1)
17: Swashbuckler 4
18: Swashbuckler 5 (Saavy Rogue)
19: Swashbuckler 6
20: Swashbuckler 7 (Dex +1)

You get a boatload of skillpoints; make sure to get around 10 ranks in tumble, 5 ranks in balance, and max out bluff.

You have +9d6 sneak attack like a good rogue should. You actually have a +16 BAB so you can do a full attack routine. However, the strategy is instead going to fight defensively, taking a -4 for +3 AC, then using Expertise for another up to -16 for +16 AC. You have a base AC of 18, +5 against one target for Dodge, and then can get a +19 to go to 42 and beat most any other "pit fighter" at this level. A -20 Attack is pretty killer, but with Improved Feint as a move action you can hit flat-footed AC, and deal your sneak attack dice on the hit. You also can use Acrobatic charge, ignore power attacks from your dodge target, and make people stab eachother. And you can reflex save for half damage from attacks 3/day. And your sneak attacks deal an additional 2 Strength damage.

With no magic items this guy is obviously going to get smoked by dragons and demons at 20, and fighting undead, constructs, and even animals puts a damper on this strategy without wands or scrolls. But in a gladiator match versus other martial types with these rule restrictions, "Perry the Parry-er" is a solid build I think.

Amphetryon
2010-01-01, 02:41 PM
Rogue 2 lets you entirely avoid a 20d6 fireball explosion inside a 5x5 room, and seems to therefore violate the 'no near-magical' abilities.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-01-01, 03:05 PM
edit
Never mind

There is a delete option for posts, you know.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-01, 03:07 PM
But editing is so much fun.:smallsmile:

Siosilvar
2010-01-01, 03:09 PM
But editing is so much fun.:smallsmile:

In case you hadn't noticed, "delete" is accessed by hitting "edit". :smallwink:

Demons_eye
2010-01-01, 04:12 PM
Rogue 2 lets you entirely avoid a 20d6 fireball explosion inside a 5x5 room, and seems to therefore violate the 'no near-magical' abilities.

People have dodged bullets at close range, besides this is fantasy. It might not be real but that does not mean its magic.

herrhauptmann
2010-01-01, 04:12 PM
If you were to make the ultimate warrior, what would it be? You have twenty levels, they have to be pure human, and you can use NO classes with any type of magic or psionic powers. Also, no magic items are allowed either. Pick the feats, skills, etc. to shape the most powerful combatant you can imagine.

Only WotC material allowed, but no ToB... because that basically borders on magic.

Are (SU) abilities allowed?

Any why are you restricting us to a PHB human? Are you even still looking at this thread, because you haven't responded to anything since starting it.

Anyway, take Pharoahs Fistbeard Beardfist build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6404306), drop 3 levels somewhere, probably only take 3 levels of Kensai instead of 6.
And insert 3 levels of stoneblessed:dwarf, somewhere before you start taking Deepwarden.

OR:
Vow of Poverty fighter. Use a club or quarterstaff for your weapon. Then use your fighter feats to build a standard sundering uber-charger, add in percussive strike so you can damage your enemies armor as well as his weapons and shield.
Then use all the free feats from VoP to get the exalted feats as suggested by Soranar in post #30. OR! use your bonus feats to fuel the feat selection for a lockdown build.
You won't have a super lockdown build because you're using a quarterstaff or a club, and not a spiked chain, but why not, you've got the feats to burn.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-01, 10:46 PM
Here we go. Spell-less Paladin+Variant Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bard) that doesn't Spellcast, using Devoted Tracker, Natural Bond, Celestial Companion, and a Beastmaster dip. Then have your Awesome Mount take VoP. I'd recommend a Fleshraker that takes Touch of the Golden Ice, so you can force 6 fort saves per full-attack.

tyckspoon
2010-01-01, 11:07 PM
.. A -20 Attack is pretty killer, but with Improved Feint as a move action you can hit flat-footed AC...

You need to be hitting against Touch AC at the least for this to have a realistic chance of hitting (and I'm not sure how you can do that reliably without magic or supernatural abilities.) Dex and some Dodge bonuses are pretty much the only things that are taken out on flat-footed, and those typically aren't large components of a high-level character's AC.. well, unless the opponent is also under the somewhat bizarre no-magic restriction, but even there you can expect to deal with a flat-footed AC 20 (plate+shield.) Not an easy target when you have to roll a 4 just to hit AC 0. So chances are both fighters will be fishing for nat 20s, but he'll be making full attacks against your Feint + single attack routine. I don't think the SA damage on your hits will make up for him hitting four times as often.

awa
2010-01-01, 11:20 PM
What about throwing alchemist fire sure it doesn't do much damage but with this defensive build your trying to out last him any way.

Actually their are a lot of decent alchemical items that could help weaken an enemy and with no magic items you've got money to burn at level 20

herrhauptmann
2010-01-01, 11:58 PM
What about throwing alchemist fire sure it doesn't do much damage but with this defensive build your trying to out last him any way.

Actually their are a lot of decent alchemical items that could help weaken an enemy and with no magic items you've got money to burn at level 20

Isn't there one you can throw on a guy to reduce his armor effectiveness? Tanglefoot bag gives the victim an AC penalty (well a dex penalty actually) so long as he's smaller than Huge.

taltamir
2010-01-02, 05:08 AM
Some abilities are labeled Su, Su abilities are magical in nature and do not work in an anti magic field...
Monk abilities are generally Su. So monk does not work.

barbarian, while having "so amazing it should be magic" abilities, are all marked Ex, extraordinary abilities that are brought on by being a badass normal and are not affected by antimagic field.

The problem is, WOTC knows that Su is supressed by anti magic field, and Ex is not... so there are a few rare cases of magical abilities that are normally Su being Ex for specific creatures to make them "non supressable". This makes Ex lose some of the distinction. however, I don't think this takes place within the PHB itself... so all the core classes should be ok to assume that Ex is badass normal, and Su is magical (supernatural), then there is Sp which is spell like ability.

So...
Usable:
Barbarian: all abilities are Ex, it is (theoretically) non magical and valid for this exercise.
Fighter: has no abilities, just feats.
Rogue: All abilities are Ex

Not Usable:
Bard: Caster with Su and Sp abilities
Cleric: Caster with Su
Druid: Caster with Su
Monk: Mostly Ex abilities but some are Su
Paladin: Caster with Su
Sorcerer: Caster, although, with low enough int can just be a bad fighter
Wizard: Caster, although, with low enough cha can just be a bad fighter

Special:
Ranger: Caster, but you can play with wis 9 or lower and have no spells. All his abilities are Ex, even animal companion... this is odd because animal companions become magical beasts and gain Su abilities... I guess WOTC does use Ex to ignore magical suppression even in the PHB... so does that invalidate the whole excercise?

Basically there are only 3 valid classes to choose from, barb, rogue, and fighter.
I am told a fighter/barb mix is better than either a straight fighter or straight barb, and you want to give it VoP since the requirements of the excercise is already have a VoP... although... VoP provides a bunch of magical abilities... that is a problem.

Demented
2010-01-02, 05:31 AM
Ranger: Caster, but you can play with wis 9 or lower and have no spells. All his abilities are Ex, even animal companion... this is odd because animal companions become magical beasts and gain Su abilities... I guess WOTC does use Ex to ignore magical suppression even in the PHB... so does that invalidate the whole excercise?

You don't need to have a magical connection in order for a magical beast to be bonded to you. Though, an Ex ability is still outside of the ordinary, implying that something can be other than mundane without being 'magical'.

There are some things that are truly 'mundane', judging by how they're neither Ex, Su, or Sp. For example, bonus feats, bonus languages, bardic knowledge, code of conduct, sneak attack, trapfinding, and, strangely, familiars and the monk's perfect self ability.

taltamir
2010-01-02, 05:42 AM
You don't need to have a magical connection in order for a magical beast to be bonded to you. Though, an Ex ability is still outside of the ordinary, implying that something can be other than mundane without being 'magical'.

There are some things that are truly 'mundane', judging by how they're neither Ex, Su, or Sp. For example, bonus feats, bonus languages, bardic knowledge, code of conduct, sneak attack, trapfinding, and, strangely, familiars and the monk's perfect self ability.

when the "bond" with the animal grants it supernatural powers, including making it sentient and able to speak, then you do need magic.
The animal companion isn't a pet, it is a magical bond that transform a beast into a magical beast, gives it the ability to speak, gives it the intelligence to speak, gives magical hardening of its hide, etc...
Ex it is not.

EDIT: I am a dumbess, I looked it up in the SRD and none of that happens... I was thinking of the neverwinter nights animal companion... never trust a computer game!
The animal companion in the SRD has nothing magical about it. Maybe its ability to share spells with the owner, and the fact it matches the owners HD... but those can be explained as progressive training of said animal... and the link ability to handle it as a free action is explainable as it being so loyal that a single word (free action to speak) such as heel or kill get it to obey.

ex cathedra
2010-01-02, 05:48 AM
Being familiar with NWN, I'm inclined to mention that Animal Companions in NWN do no such thing, and that you should remember that the game in question is using a vague interpretation of the 3.0 rule set.

Amphetryon
2010-01-02, 07:37 AM
People have dodged bullets at close range, besides this is fantasy. It might not be real but that does not mean its magic.

Those people are pretty rare and lucky, and a Fireball in a 5x5 room takes more space than a single bullet. When people start dodging suppression fire from the ceiling and one wall of that room, the analogy becomes more meaningful. I'm aware it's not magical; neither is the vast majority of ToB. It's pretty much "right up along side magic" though, if ToB is our measuring stick.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate.

taltamir
2010-01-02, 07:45 AM
btw, people can't dodge bullets, bullets can miss, people can dodge BEFORE someone fires the gun causing said person to miss, but you cannot dodge a bullet.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-02, 08:02 AM
Although your average 2nd level monk can certainly catch them.

Longcat
2010-01-02, 08:06 AM
Although your average 2nd level monk can certainly catch them.

I wonder: Can you, actually, according to RAW, catch a bullet (fired from one of the DMG firearms) with Snatch Arrows?

ex cathedra
2010-01-02, 08:10 AM
Yes. See: Deflect Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#deflectArrows) and Snatch Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#snatchArrows).

Theoretically, you could do the same to the futuristic weapons in the DMG. So, monks can catch antimatter.

Longcat
2010-01-02, 08:13 AM
The following sentence makes me wonder:


Unusually massive ranged weapons and ranged attacks generated by spell effects can’t be deflected

Do firearms count as "unusually massive ranged weapons", or does it refer to size-only (e.g. Hulking Hurler)?

taltamir
2010-01-02, 08:19 AM
thats another thing, I have seen plenty of debunkers claiming that the notion of humans catching arrows like the do in fantasy is a myth and could never be done.

Since you are mixing monks with modern tech, it will be hilarious to have a monk catch a laser beam.


Do firearms count as "unusually massive ranged weapons", or does it refer to size-only (e.g. Hulking Hurler)?

firearms don't exist in medieval fantasy. if the DM modifies the setting in such a manner as to introduce them, then the DM should also make a sensible ruling. Such a ruling should be that gun bullets and laser beams are uncatchable, like spell effects and "usually massive ranged weapons"

Amphetryon
2010-01-02, 08:32 AM
There are rules for Firearms in the DMG.

awa
2010-01-02, 11:45 AM
technical you could dodge a bullet bullets don't travel instantaneously just really, really fast so you would just have to be a really really really long way from the shooter and some how know someones shooting at you (becuase at the ranges you'd need to be you wouldn't be able to see or hear them)

Zincorium
2010-01-02, 12:02 PM
You can never dodge a bullet that is correctly aimed at you. No matter the range, bullets are too small and too fast to avoid even if you are bruce lee.

You can dodge a person's point of aim. Often it's quite easy. Therefore, dodging should be primarily about making the person aim incorrectly and therefore not put a bullet into the space you are unable to evacuate.

sonofzeal
2010-01-02, 01:24 PM
There are rules for Firearms in the DMG.
There's also a grenade launcher, dynamite, flamethrowers, laser pistols, and antimatter rifles. Your point? :smalltongue:

awa
2010-01-02, 01:54 PM
bullets are fast but their not instantaneous although it would require nearly impossible ranges the bullet can actually take several seconds to reach the target
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Furlong
the bullets took nearly 4 seconds to reach the target enough time to dodge if you knew the bullet was coming

erikun
2010-01-02, 03:33 PM
"To Dodge" means, according to wikitionary (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dodge), "To avoid by moving out of the way (often suddenly)." That is, you must be in the path of the bullet and then intentionally move to avoid being hit.

While 4 seconds does give you enough time to avoid an attack, attempting to spot a bullet fired from a muzzle 1.5 miles away would be nearly impossible. You simply cannot spot an object that small from that far away, and any other clues from the shot (gunpowder smoke, sound) would only become apparent after the bullet had hit the target.

You can certainly unintentionally step out of the way as the bullet is en route, but this wouldn't be dodging.

awa
2010-01-02, 03:36 PM
like i said it would require the perfect storm of coincidences but if you were looking through say a telescope or something and saw the shooter just as he was pulling the trigger you could possible move out of the way. I am in no way saying it's likely just possible.

taltamir
2010-01-02, 03:41 PM
"To Dodge" means, according to wikitionary (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dodge), "To avoid by moving out of the way (often suddenly)." That is, you must be in the path of the bullet and then intentionally move to avoid being hit.

While 4 seconds does give you enough time to avoid an attack, attempting to spot a bullet fired from a muzzle 1.5 miles away would be nearly impossible. You simply cannot spot an object that small from that far away, and any other clues from the shot (gunpowder smoke, sound) would only become apparent after the bullet had hit the target.

You can certainly unintentionally step out of the way as the bullet is en route, but this wouldn't be dodging.

exactly... sure if you are running in a straight line, and some fires a bullet at where you are currently at from several miles away, by the time the bullet reaches the point you were at, you aren't there; that is them missing because they did not properly account for your trajectory... however, if you are standing in place, you cannot detect the bullet mid flight, and them move out of the way.

bullet speed does become a problem in cases of airplane dogfights. not because pilots "see them and dodge", but because you are both moving so fast and in 3d, so a stream of bullets appears to "curve" and you need to take that curving into consideration to hit the enemy plane.


like i said it would require the perfect storm of coincidences but if you were looking through say a telescope or something and saw the shooter just as he was pulling the trigger you could possible move out of the way. I am in no way saying it's likely just possible.

a perfect storm of coincidence causing someone to miss is not the same as dodging.

awa
2010-01-02, 04:09 PM
no if you can some how manage to see them just as the bullet is leaving the gun then at this particular extreme range you have 4 seconds to move thus you have dodged i'm not sure what more you want they have already fired so its not a matter of improper aiming but you moving out of the way.

taltamir
2010-01-02, 04:33 PM
no if you can some how manage to see them just as the bullet is leaving the gun then at this particular extreme range you have 4 seconds to move thus you have dodged i'm not sure what more you want they have already fired so its not a matter of improper aiming but you moving out of the way.

You think a human can see a 1cm bullet leaving a muzzle several miles away and immediately predict its trajectory with enough accuracy to then get out of the way?
(keep in mind, that at those distances the sniper in question must aim above where he wants to hit, because the bullet curves downwards due to gravity).

320 m/s The speed of a typical .22 LR bullet.
336 m/s The speed of sound in the Black Rock Desert when the land speed record was set in 1997.

and that is a typical bullet, anyone who has any chance of hitting you from several miles away will be using a non typical sniper bullet/rifle... here is an example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_equipment
R: 000 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1000 1100 1200 1300 1400
V: 860 797 737 678 623 569 518 470 423 381 0342 0317 0297 0282 0270
R=Range (m)
V=Velocity (m/s)

so your bullet comes out of the muzzle at 2.56x the speed of sound... sure it slows down, but there is a good chance that the bullet reaches you before the sound of it being fired.

awa
2010-01-02, 05:06 PM
well assuming you looking right at the person as he fires (becuase that was the example) he does not need to see the bullet he just needs to see the flash or hell even just realize the man pointing a gun at him dose not have his best interests at heart then he dives behind something or falls flat he does not need to know the trajectory all he needs to do is move. If he moves out of the way after realizing someone is trying to shoot him its a dodge.

Im not saying it's likely in fact i would agree it's incredibly unlikely that any one capable of hitting a target at these distances would be spotted but were not arguing likely were arguing physical possible.

9mm
2010-01-02, 05:14 PM
are people bringing up "how the real world works" in a FANTASY TABLE TOP GAME rules discussion?


Dammit, and I just got these catgirls.

awa
2010-01-02, 05:33 PM
actual i think you might have a point whether you could in bizarre contrived setting be able to make it physically possible to dodge a bullet or not is so far removed from the original question about powerful non caster characters that it shouldn't really be mentioned any more on this thread.
If someone wants to make another topic to talk about it that's great but i think personally im about done with the discussion.

Augmented Lurk
2010-01-02, 06:46 PM
Fighter 4/Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berzerker 10. Take Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and Robilar's Gambit.

Temotei
2010-01-02, 08:49 PM
Not sure if someone pointed this out, but on the first page, there was a build with monk as the first level. They took Kung-Fu Genius, and said it gives Intelligence to AC and Stunning Fist.

The problem is that Stunning Fist isn't a monk ability. It's a feat. So Kung-Fu Genius doesn't affect it.

taltamir
2010-01-02, 10:20 PM
well assuming you looking right at the person as he fires (becuase that was the example) he does not need to see the bullet he just needs to see the flash or hell even just realize the man pointing a gun at him dose not have his best interests at heart then he dives behind something or falls flat he does not need to know the trajectory all he needs to do is move. If he moves out of the way after realizing someone is trying to shoot him its a dodge.

Im not saying it's likely in fact i would agree it's incredibly unlikely that any one capable of hitting a target at these distances would be spotted but were not arguing likely were arguing physical possible.

you can see a sniper pointing a gun at you from several miles away?

2xMachina
2010-01-03, 03:41 AM
Boost your Spot check up the roof, lol. Then Nat 20 it.

Setra
2010-01-03, 06:32 AM
you can see a sniper pointing a gun at you from several miles away?
Well he can certainly see you :smalltongue:

Maybe you're actively looking for snipers with gear required for such that would likely enable you to see long distances?

Sure it's a long shot (and I realize HOW long of a shot) but it's possible.

Also, he would be probably 2 miles away tops, not several..

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-03, 06:50 AM
Well he can certainly see you :smalltongue:

Maybe you're actively looking for snipers with gear required for such that would likely enable you to see long distances?

Sure it's a long shot (and I realize HOW long of a shot) but it's possible.

Also, he would be probably 2 miles away tops, not several..

An optimized sniper, from 300 feet away, will be unspottable to normal vision modes. -30 range penalty, on top of a solid sniper only getting a -6 to hide after a snipe lands him 24 up. Even if spot were as pumpable as hide (it's not - Size and racial modifiers are higher for hide), a roll of 1 on hiding, and a roll of 20 on spotting, that's still +5 more you'd need.

2xMachina
2010-01-03, 06:55 AM
Masterwork Scope. +2 there. And get whatever he's using to spot you in the first place.

Setra
2010-01-03, 06:58 AM
An optimized sniper, from 300 feet away, will be unspottable to normal vision modes. -30 range penalty, on top of a solid sniper only getting a -6 to hide after a snipe lands him 24 up. Even if spot were as pumpable as hide (it's not - Size and racial modifiers are higher for hide), a roll of 1 on hiding, and a roll of 20 on spotting, that's still +5 more you'd need.
I thought we were talking about real snipers :smallconfused:

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-03, 06:59 AM
Masterwork Scope. +2 there. And get whatever he's using to spot you in the first place.

Well, for one, unless you're an optimized hider (as a sniper is), your hide check is most assuredly lower than his, making you an easier spot target.

Masterwork Scope Cancelled out by Masterwork camo cloak.

If you are an optimized hider?

Then you'll each sit around for 20 years, unable to spot each other.

taltamir
2010-01-03, 02:32 PM
Well he can certainly see you :smalltongue:

Maybe you're actively looking for snipers with gear required for such that would likely enable you to see long distances?

Sure it's a long shot (and I realize HOW long of a shot) but it's possible.

Also, he would be probably 2 miles away tops, not several..

wow, i think it will actually work... say you have a telescope on you, and you look around and see a sniper aiming at you from 2 miles away. and you are looked at him when you see a muzzle flash, you will actually have a few seconds to dodge, then the bullet will pass where you were before, then the sound of the gunfire will arrive (After the bullet).

of course, the odds of this are nil... but I guess it could happen.

nyarlathotep
2010-01-03, 03:23 PM
I think the best would actually be a cavalier ubercharger with a lance; duel wielding lances could help too, though probably not as much as wielding one lance in two hands.

Eldariel
2010-01-03, 06:29 PM
I think the best would actually be a cavalier ubercharger with a lance; duel wielding lances could help too, though probably not as much as wielding one lance in two hands.

Only if you simply want to deal a lot of damage. Being a great combatant takes much more than that.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-01-03, 06:35 PM
Only if you simply want to deal a lot of damage. Being a great combatant takes much more than that.

Of course! You need to win initiative, or you might be killed before you can kill them. :smalltongue: