my kobolds killed PCs... does this happen to you?

[Soranar]

This was a 3.5 game

I started to DM a new group recently and I told them they could use whatever race or class they wanted to create their PCs.

They were all level 6 characters and they picked some fairly high LA races (1 half-ogre, a drow, even a deep gnome)

I like to have resilient PCs so I gave them 32 pts for their builds and I even took pity on the deepgnome monk and gave him 40 pts

Now I'm used to playing with veteran players who always do balanced groups: 1 skillmonkey/ 1 tank/ 1 healer/ 1 caster

anyway, they made some questionable choices (builds that become powerful around level 12...) and even poorer tactical choices (they're just kobolds, charge!)

they got slaughtered

They weren't even particularly powerful kobolds, the fight was in a cave (full of traps, who would have thought kobolds made traps?), the kobold sorcerer cast sleep and their tank failed his saving throw, their mage got flanked and couldn't fly (being in a cave tunnel)

In fact that fight was really an afterthought, I threw it together in a few minutes and I never expected them to die from it (the CR was so low they wouldn't even get xp, it was just a plot point)

Anyway, any stories of epic fails like this you want to share?

And do you have any advice on how to make PCs not make stupid choices without insulting them in the process?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Sleep doesn't affect creatures with more than 4 HD.

[Soranar]

half-ogre have ECL +2

being level 6 he had exactly 4 HD, he was also the only one in range (being a tank and all he lead the charge)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

So no LA buyoff?

That makes them somewhat weaker than level 6 characters.

[The Corinthian]

I always talk a lot with players I DM for about their plans/ideas for character advancement. It's mostly so I can know what they are planning and how they see their characters, and help them to build their characters to fit that, but if some players are particularly feckless, I'll suggest feat and multiclassing options that will make them more effective. It's still their character, of course, so it's important that you don't go "You're playing a halfling rogue/monk/wizard?! Are you serious?" but more like "Hey, since you're playing a multiclassed wizard, have you seen the Practiced Spellcaster feat?"

[Mando Knight]

Sleep doesn't affect creatures with more than 4 HD.

They're all LA races. Which is one of the problems.

[Soranar]

well, after reviewing the events of the fight I can say 3 things for sure

1rst you really need at least 1 character with a decent spot skill/listen skill, they never saw the 2 kobolds who flanked the wizard at the back of the group

2nd trapfinders are not an option, at least have a find traps spell ready or something

3rd bad tactics kill PCs (why not just blast the cave from afar while playing bodyguard to the mage?)

[Tyndmyr]

The wizard couldn't kill off two flanking kobolds at level 6? He fails at D&D.

Proof that a sufficient amount of stupidity can overcome any advantage. Also, LA races suck, almost invariably. Anything over +1 is a waste, especially if buyoff is not in effect. ESPECIALLY for casters.

Also, "just charge" is great for beatsticks with enough hp to survive traps, but casters must be paranoid. No reason to charge in when you can nuke from range. Also, AC buffs are easy and low level. Kobolds have a crappy attack bonus and damage. The PCs should be in no real direct danger from regular kobolds at this level.

[Thelas]

Proof that a sufficient amount of stupidity can overcome any advantage.

I can confirm this. I mean, it was 1st level and all, but two kobolds does not kill part of a three-person party. Without critting once, other than the CdG.

And yes, my kobolds do kill PCs, as what I just said shows.

[Irreverent Fool]

Every LA is another HD you don't have. Less HP makes for squishier characters. I agree with the above that this was the major problem.

However, I believe the question was 'does this happen to you?'.

Well, in an ongoing campaign I'm DMing, the characters were travelling through heavy fog. As the party was breaking camp, the ranger's player says he's going to go off hunting for food (in spite of the fact that they are very well-supplied). Fair enough. He wants some fresh meat. Due to the low visibility, he has a rough time of it and as he didn't tell the party he was creeping off, they start wondering what happened.

A few rolls later and the ranger finally stumbles onto a (slightly advanced) brown bear. The ranger is downwind and hiding and the bear is merely foraging for food. So, at about 30', he decided to shoot an arrow into the bear's flank.

A botched sniping roll (-20 to hide checks!) and a few rounds of screaming later, and the bear has not only knocked out the ranger, but also has the halfling bard in a bearhug. Confronted by a bunch of armed and noisy humanoids, it finally retreats, but in the chaos three of the party members fell (one due to a warlock firing into a grapple and hitting his teammate) to the player-induced random encounter.

obnoxious
sig

[Saintjebus]

Unfortunately for players, there is no spell titled "Protection from Stupidity".

[Flickerdart]

Unfortunately for players, there is no spell titled "Protection from Stupidity".
A well-placed smack upside the head can mimic the effects of an Owl's Wisdom spell.

[Tyndmyr]

Well, in an ongoing campaign I'm DMing, the characters were travelling through heavy fog. As the party was breaking camp, the ranger's player says he's going to go off hunting for food (in spite of the fact that they are very well-supplied). Fair enough. He wants some fresh meat.......death

This is why you say "I look for berries" and roll a survival check. Or just eat the trail rations like everyone else.

If you decide to snipe, starting from 30' away is fail. Bears do not have ranged attacks. Therefore, start shooting from as far away as you can reasonably hit it. If the fog is such that you need to walk up to the grappling thing that wants to eat you before you can see it...um, just dont do that?

[Irreverent Fool]

This is why you say "I look for berries" and roll a survival check. Or just eat the trail rations like everyone else.

If you decide to snipe, starting from 30' away is fail. Bears do not have ranged attacks. Therefore, start shooting from as far away as you can reasonably hit it. If the fog is such that you need to walk up to the grappling thing that wants to eat you before you can see it...um, just dont do that?

That's what I said.

obnoxious
sig

[Saintjebus]

A well-placed smack upside the head can mimic the effects of an Owl's Wisdom spell.

Quite so, Quite so. Always worked for my brothers....

[Zincorium]

I had a single Chuul kill a party member and greviously wound two other party members. Of course the party consisted of 5 people of an average of level 9.

Setup was a partially submerged abandoned sewer system- lots of wierdness like chokers just to set the mood. The party enters a 15 by 45 rectangular room with stairs going downward the entire way. The bottom is filled with murky -specifically opaque- water and there is no light other than what the players have available.

They can see some disturbance of the water as they get near in their torchlight.

The level 8 rogue, a new player, decides to go into the water alone, without any sort of light, ability to breathe water, plan, or backup. He is grabbed by a *thing* that is much stronger than him and which begins to do bad things to his person once initiative is rolled. There seemed to be a general consensus it was his job to scout ahead, and no one objected to him entering the water despite the absurdly heavy handed 'there is something in that there water' description.

The barbarian does not want to go in the water at all, as he is wearing medium armor. Ditto for the level 11 cleric. Everyone except the wizard, who was an alternate DM, follows their lead. The wizard had some sort of spellfire channeling abilities, which apparently included the ability to blow spell levels on healing. He dives into the water, attempts to heal the now-paralyzed, drowned, and grappled rogue that no one could see. *Horrific meta-gaming* from someone who vilified such as DM, but I gave it a pass because he was at least doing something.

As he is using an ability which provokes an attack of opportunity in a threatened sqare and has no defenses up nor did he put points into concentration, it fails. Now the rogue is dead, the wizard is in the situation the rogue was in previously, and finally it's decided, after another round of mucking about, that the rest of the party is going to actually do something. Well, something useful- they were previously taking up defensive positions out of the water and fielding ideas on what it might be.

Wizard lived but was injured, another party member got hurt badly enough that the cleric couldn't completely heal him without running out of spells. And we were about a third of the way through. I gave them CR 10 experience to head off the revolt that I'm sure would have taken place if I'd stuck to the book listing of CR 7.


There is nothing that can't be made worse through the party being cowardly and foolish.

[Tyndmyr]

Alternatively, dropping them on their heads can act as a Dispel magic.

[AngelisBlack]

I thought my D&D groups were bad, but beaten by kobolds you wern't going to get XP for is pretty bad.

But as for getting your PCs to be more inteligent, I would suggest a test campagin where teamwork is emphasised. Also, do impress upon them that mercy will be shown for bad luck sometimes, but never for stupidity.

[Kylarra]

Unfortunately for players, there is no spell titled "Protection from Stupidity".Well in my Scion game, the ST did create a knack called "Common Sense"...

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I was going to ask if it was Tucker's Kobolds upgraded to 3.5...

...I would hate to see how Tucker's Kobolds would clean house against these guys.

[Gamerlord]

Kobolds kill PCs on a daily basis, heck, dragon has a table for when a PC dies to a kobold. (It is 4e though.)

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I thought my D&D groups were bad, but beaten by kobolds you wern't going to get XP for is pretty bad.

But as for getting your PCs to be more inteligent, I would suggest a test campagin where teamwork is emphasised. Also, do impress upon them that mercy will be shown for bad luck sometimes, but never for stupidity.A war-based game can do wonders for impressing on PCs the idea of tactics, not fighting everything they see, retreating before overwhelming odds, and generally thinking before acting. And it has the advantage of making replacement characters easy to justify.

[Lost Demiurge]

So no LA buyoff?

That makes them somewhat weaker than level 6 characters.

Yep. And they CHOSE to play those LA races. They knew what they were getting into. From the sounds of it, their deaths were on their own heads.

[Swordgleam]

My 4e party is exactly like that. Most dragons don't even bloody them. But they came within a hair of being TPKed by spiders because the fighter inadvertently (but in a way that everyone but him could see coming) set the entire area on fire and then got KOed. Likewise, they nearly got wiped out by rats on more than one occasion.

I think it's because players see weak enemies and all thoughts of tactics go out the window.

When my players make stupid choices, I usually openly mock them. But you can also just ask, in a menacing voice, "Are you sure you want to do that?"

[Volkov]

I had a level 20 fighter take out a balor single handedly, only for a trio of vrocks to kill him with their weird dance of doom.

[Temotei]

Kobolds are evil. Absolutely evil.

I think it's funny when people forget their class features. Turn undead, wild empathy, etc.

[Volkov]

Kobolds are evil. Absolutely evil.

I think it's funny when people forget their class features. Turn undead, wild empathy, etc.

Few things are as ironic as watching a druid being eaten by a dinosaur. :P

[FlamingKobold]

Kobolds don't kill my PCs, my PCs are kobolds!

[Dimers]

3rd bad tactics kill PCs (why not just blast the cave from afar while playing bodyguard to the mage?)

Because it's boring. Even for the blaster. Which is not to say that the players have more fun rolling up new characters, of course; it's just that delay of gratification is difficult. :smallamused:


Unfortunately for players, there is no spell titled "Protection from Stupidity".

"Scion" isn't the only game with selectable Common Sense. In GURPS, you can buy it for your character pretty cheaply. To paraphrase the book text: When your character is about to do something stoopid, the DM will ...


just ask, in a menacing voice, "Are you sure you want to do that?"

... menacing voice optional. :smallwink:

And to answer the OP's question -- not yet, but I'm sure one of my groups will get around to it eventually. :smallbiggrin: EDIT: That is to say, I've never had a TPK result. Individual character death, sure.

[Tyndmyr]

When my players make stupid choices, I usually openly mock them. But you can also just ask, in a menacing voice, "Are you sure you want to do that?"

The first option is excellent.

The second option is funnier when you randomly use it in perfectly safe, ordinary situations as well as horrifically lethal ones.

[Soranar]

yeah I tried the are you sure you want to do that bit, didn't work

they're just kobolds, what's the worse that can happen? says the 6 INT 8 WIS half-ogre barbarian

I guess he was just roleplaying well

[Swordgleam]

The first option is excellent.

The second option is funnier when you randomly use it in perfectly safe, ordinary situations as well as horrifically lethal ones.

Oh, of course. Another one a previous DM of mine used to great effect was "You may certainly try" whenever someone asked if they could do something silly. His tone implied that horrific things might happen if you tried and failed.

[LibraryOgre]

Kobolds don't kill my PCs, my PCs are kobolds!

I wish MY characters were immune to damage from members of their own race. What LA is that?

[TheCountAlucard]

Oh, of course. Another one a previous DM of mine used to great effect was "You may certainly try" whenever someone asked if they could do something silly. His tone implied that horrific things might happen if you tried and failed.I do this sometimes as well. :smallamused:

[Tyndmyr]

they're just kobolds, what's the worse that can happen? says the 6 INT 8 WIS half-ogre barbarian

I guess he was just roleplaying well

Listening to the barbarian's tactical advice...always a bad idea. Plus, you *know* when someone says "What's the worst that can happen?", you should run screaming in the other direction.

Clearly, they brought this on themselves for taunting the gods of fate.

[Swordgleam]

Listening to the barbarian's tactical advice...always a bad idea. Plus, you *know* when someone says "What's the worst that can happen?", you should run screaming in the other direction.

Clearly, they brought this on themselves for taunting the gods of fate.

Some people (and characters) are just natural Bad Idea Bears. We prefer "What could possibly go wrong?" as our fate-inducing tagline.

[elonin]

I've been in the position a few times of berating a barbarian as a sneaky style character for just charging in. I've even had one of those barbarians complain because he set off traps that I had no chance to find cause of his attitude.

There was an episode of dungeon in which was a module that the writer said a group of level 3 characters could go through easily if they did it right but that level 10 pc's would have trouble with. This complex was made to suit kobold tatics with many murder holes that pc's would have to go past, narrow halls with short ceilings so that size m characters would need to squeeze. Stuff along that line.

[awa]

Well no one died and i was a player not the dm it was very close.
We were escorting a group of orphans when an ankheg popped up grab one of them an burrowed into its lair the the Fighter chain tripper and the warlock rogue(me) go in after the ankheg we find a maze of caverns we start exploring find a room full of giant ants i move into position behind the fighter to ants on my turn and ready to shoot when the fighter suddenly leaves running down a separate tunnel leaving me in melee combat with 5 giant ants. The rest of the party comes down and decides to take a diffrent path from the one i or the fighter took and one ends in a pit and then fighting a stag beetle. I finish off the ants and then help kill the stag beetle and eventual start heading towards the fighter.

While we were doing all this he was running through the cavern. With no light source becuase are dm allowed him to do so if he was willing to take damage for running into walls which he did becuase it was a maze and their were a lot of turns. Also traps which he found in large numbers. He finally finds the ankheg and gets dropped in one shot becuase he cant see it.

He survived largely by the dm benevolence. This is less a tactical mistake and more his charecter has no sense what so ever

[RandomLunatic]

*Snip*
He survived largely by the dm benevolence. This is less a tactical mistake and more his charecter has no sense what so ever

See, I am curious to hear what his justification was (I would say "what he was thinking", but that is sorta questionable).

[Tyndmyr]

Some people (and characters) are just natural Bad Idea Bears. We prefer "What could possibly go wrong?" as our fate-inducing tagline.

I use this all the time on my RL wizard. Usually followed by the line "you go first".

Thankfully, the barbarian is horribly gullible.

[jiriku]

...and Tucker's kobolds claim another set of victims.

I have yet to wipe a party, ever. However, I can proudly report that in the last game I ran, the beguiler attempted to cast confusion on a room full of low-level mooks and accidently caught the party druid (who was a dire tiger at the time) in the AoE. One failed Will save, an unfortunate roll on the confusion table, and two critical hits later, the beguiler's player was sitting on the sidelines waiting for raise dead. Kitty didn't play nice. I laughed so hard I nearly peed myself.

[taltamir]

"I am a tier 1 character; they are kobolds! I can take them!"
Some of the stories here are hillarious... yea, charging into melee with a wizard without protection spells is bad...

taking any creature with LA, especially ECL greater than +1, is bad. (ECL 6 is just terrifying to take); especially with casters.

Although:

The wizard couldn't kill off two flanking kobolds at level 6? He fails at D&D.
He could be intentionally unoptimized to avoid outshining the rest of the party... Or someone who doesn't have enough experience (or read enough forums, that substitutes for experience) to know any better.

[Harperfan7]

A campaign I DMed a few years ago didn't even make it to 2nd level. They died once fighting a redcap (random encounter), so I let them restart. This time they died fighting a band of kobolds (6-7 CR 1/3rds and 1 CR 1), though the kobolds got the jump on them. So I let them restart again, they finally died for the last time against halfling river pirates (who were armed with pixie sleeps arrows and alchemical sleep gas glass sling bullets).

Newbie players + any monsters you create that aren't statted and equipped exactly the same way as the MM version = TPK.

At least in my experience, your mileage may vary.

[magic9mushroom]

The wizard couldn't kill off two flanking kobolds at level 6? He fails at D&D.

Proof that a sufficient amount of stupidity can overcome any advantage. Also, LA races suck, almost invariably. Anything over +1 is a waste, especially if buyoff is not in effect. ESPECIALLY for casters.

Also, "just charge" is great for beatsticks with enough hp to survive traps, but casters must be paranoid. No reason to charge in when you can nuke from range. Also, AC buffs are easy and low level. Kobolds have a crappy attack bonus and damage. The PCs should be in no real direct danger from regular kobolds at this level.

I dunno, Pixie seems worth its LA.

[Grumman]

So I let them restart again, they finally died for the last time against halfling river pirates (who were armed with pixie sleeps arrows and alchemical sleep gas glass sling bullets).

Newbie players + any monsters you create that aren't statted and equipped exactly the same way as the MM version = TPK.
I have an alternative explanation for this one:
Low level characters + massed save-or-sucks + willingness to murder you once you're down = TPK.

[Clovis]

Yeah, it happens. A frigging kobold killed my 8th level wizard, the only one to die in a group of 6. The kobold was firing a ballista, critted, confirmed and I got a bolt lodged in the throat. Got better later (raised and restored). Damn stupid kobolds and their strategically-placed, concealed sniping weapons... Who would've thought that a Drow would be instructing kobolds? :smallredface:
Wiped out the entire lair later, of course.

[taltamir]

I have an alternative explanation for this one:
Low level characters + massed save-or-sucks + willingness to murder you once you're down = TPK.

that, you should not equip enemies for a level 1 party with save or suck weapons...
no poisons, no gasses... just melee and ranged. with the occasional caster (avoid that)

well, not unless they are experienced players who know what they are doing and are actively optimizing for a brutal game.

[Harperfan7]

that, you should not equip enemies for a level 1 party with save or suck weapons...
no poisons, no gasses... just melee and ranged. with the occasional caster (avoid that)

well, not unless they are experienced players who know what they are doing and are actively optimizing for a brutal game.

I dunno, that's what saving throws are for, and these were expensive weapons, if the pcs survived one volley, that's it (and the enemies were non-pc classes with average scores).

And they weren't area effects, just "if you're hit" types.

But then, I think players (especially casters) should earn level two, not just endure level one.

[taltamir]

as long as the players know, expect, and are ok with that, then there is no problem.

saving throws? at level 1? PCs don't have saving throws at level 1. heck, you need magic to get worthwhile saving throws anyways.


these were expensive weapons, if the pcs survived one volley, that's it
I am not sure I understand this

[Harperfan7]

as long as the players know, expect, and are ok with that, then there is no problem.

saving throws? at level 1? PCs don't have saving throws at level 1. heck, you need magic to get worthwhile saving throws anyways.


I am not sure I understand this

The enemies only had 1 or 2 rounds each of the "save-vs-incapacitation" ammunition.

And thats not true, take a sleep arrow from the DMG, the save is what, 11?
1st level wizards sleep spell, 12-16?
alchemical sleep gas, 13? 15? I forget.

[taltamir]

The enemies only had 1 or 2 rounds each of the "save-vs-incapacitation" ammunition.

And thats not true, take a sleep arrow from the DMG, the save is what, 11?
1st level wizards sleep spell, 12-16?
alchemical sleep gas, 13? 15? I forget.

and the reasonable maximum save someone can have is +2, or +0 if its not a good save. (sure they can take a feat, maybe have resistance on for a +1... not realistic).
As a will save, the casters (who are least squishy and don't do melee) are the ones with the +2, while the beat sticks are the ones with the +0)... or even -1 if their wisdom was dumped.

all of those have a very good chance of failing the save...

and a party of 5 vs 7 CR nothing monsters each equipped with a single sleep arrow will go down fast... statistically one or two should fall from the first volley, then the second volley rather depends on how many went down to the first... but its very very easy for the dice to roll badly for the PCs (its not enough dice to normalize the distribution) and down all of them in one round. or enough to matter.
it also depends on who is being downed / targetted...

finally... @ 132 gp a pop, @2 arrows per gob, @ 7 goblins, thats 1848gp of consumables burned in 2 rounds by the goblins on downing your party.

[Harperfan7]

and the reasonable maximum save someone can have is +2, or +0 if its not a good save. (sure they can take a feat, maybe have resistance on for a +1... not realistic)

all of those have a very good chance of failing the save...

and a party of 5 vs 7 CR nothing monsters each equipped with a single sleep arrow will go down fast... statistically one or two should fall from the first volley, then the second volley rather depends on how many went down to the first... but its very very easy for the dice to roll badly for the PCs (its not enough dice to normalize the distribution) and down all of them in one round. or enough to matter.
it also depends on is being downed...

Good sir, the reasonable maximum save someone can have is much bigger than +2.

Tordek
F+5 (+7 vs. poisons or magic)
R+1
W+0 (+2 vs. magic)

Lidda
F+1
R+6
W+0 (+2 vs. fear)

Jozan
F+4
R-1
W+4

Mialee
F+0
R+3
W+3 (+5 vs Enchantment, immune to sleep)

These are the given 1st level pcs for 3-3.5 D&D.
The *average* save is slightly higher than +2, higher if you add in the parenthetical bonuses.

[taltamir]

Tordek
F+5 (+7 vs. poisons or magic)
R+1
W+0 or +1 (+3 vs. magic)

racial +2 vs magic helps... otherwise it would have been +0 or +1 (or?) on that will save vs sleep.


Lidda
F+1
R+6
W+0 (+2 vs. fear)

+0 vs the DC11 will save vs sleep


Jozan
F+4
R-1
W+4

Cleric I am guessing... only one with a decent will save. still at +4 he has a fair chance (35%) of failing DC11.


Mialee
F+0
R+3
W+3 (+vs Enchantment, immune to sleep)

These are the given 1st level pcs for 3-3.5 D&D.

wizard with 16 dex, 12 wisdom, and 10 con?
anyways, her race makes her immune to sleep... except nobody would really play an elf wizard (elves are terrible wizards; +2 dex -2 con, no bonus feats or skills like a human, and abilities that do nothing for wizardry; but good for rogues) unless its a non standard elf that actually has an int bonus.
So now she gets to fight 7 monsters with better AC and to hit then her... and her HP is 4 because her fort save indicates a con of 10 (after the -2 racial penalty). woot!

so overall, the tank and the rogue both have a +0 to will, unless they have racial bonus. The wizard has a +2, unless she has a racial bonus, and the cleric has a good plus (it is actually too low, a cleric with 14 or 15 wisdom? for shame!)

[Harperfan7]

You're killing me, sir. Just take an internet and go.

[taltamir]

btw, I think I edited it in to a previous post as you were posting a reply... but:

@ 132 gp a pop, @2 arrows per gob, @ 7 goblins, thats 1848gp of consumables burned in 2 rounds by the goblins on downing your party.

[PhoenixRivers]

racial +2 vs magic helps... otherwise it would have been +0 or +1 (or?) on that will save vs sleep.


+0 vs the DC11 will save vs sleep


Cleric I am guessing... only one with a decent will save. still at +4 he has a fair chance (35%) of failing DC11.Yeah, they all have a chance to fail and fall asleep.

That's the point. A single target attack with a low to moderate chance of failure (35-50%) isn't out of line for level 1. It shouldn't be every arrow they fire, but as they need to hit first? It's reasonable. If 2 arrows hit, and there's a 50% pass rate, 1 PC will be temporarily incapacitated, most likely. The rest can take care of the encounter, or wake their sleeping comrade.

Just because PC's at low level are vulnerable doesn't mean they need to be protected from everything but HP damage.


wizard with 16 dex, 12 wisdom, and 10 con?
anyways, her race makes her immune to sleep... except nobody would really play an elf wizard (elves are terrible wizards; +2 dex -2 con, no bonus feats or skills like a human, and abilities that do nothing for wizardry; but good for rogues) unless its a non standard elf that actually has an int bonus.
So now she gets to fight 7 monsters with better AC and to hit then her... and her HP is 4 because her fort save indicates a con of 10 (after the -2 racial penalty). woot!Elf is not a bad wizard race, actually. The generalist variant for elves is solid, the +1 to hit from dex helps ranged touch attacks, and the increased movement over halfling is valuable at low levels.


so overall, the tank and the rogue both have a +0 to will, unless they have racial bonus. The wizard has a +2, unless she has a racial bonus, and the cleric has a good plus (it is actually too low, a cleric with 14 or 15 wisdom? for shame!)The base classes in the book are made under the elite array. 15's as good as it gets. Most games use much better stats.

Note: Level 1 characters have strengths (a few) and weaknesses (more). That's not a reason to deliberately avoid them, any more than it's a reason to explicitly target them. You hit a few things here and there, and trust that they'll pull through. The fighter may only have a 50% pass rate vs that arrow's save, but if he's wearing a chain shirt and a large shield, with a 13 dex, vs a ECL 1 archer (+4 to hit - 15 dex, +1 bab, Weapon focus), the archer only has a 40% chance to hit, for a 20% chance to actually knock that fighter out.

[Zincorium]

@Harperfan7:

The real problem, that you haven't addressed at all, is that you were hitting the PCs with save-or-sucks multiple times apiece from a distance, when they all had a good chance of failing each save.

This is killer DMing, whether that was the intent or not. If one of the PCs has an 80% chance of failing, like a fragile wizard, then they'll most likely go down the first turn, along with anyone who rolled badly. Second turn, the survivors get hit by concentrated fire, meaning their probability of failing will increase dramatically.

And they wasted resources the PCs don't have access to to do so. Would you have given every single one of those items to the PCs had they snuck up and dispatched them before they had a chance to respond? I honestly don't think you would.

[Cyanic]

Great failure, party level 15 (4 PCs: Blackguard, Wizard, Scout, and Cleric)

In a big abandoned sewer system. Kraken grabs tank (blackguard) during surprise round and pulls him into the fast deep water (swim check dc 15 rough water) and lets go. Blackguard fails swim (-18 to swim check due to medium load and full plate) and con check and starts drowning while being slowly pushed by the current downstream. Kraken then rolls first initiative due to rather good roll and grabs and holds the wizard under the water while heading down the chanel. Scout jumps in to try and find/rescue the blackguard and draws AoO grapples and is now holding its breath underwater but realistically unable to ever break from grapple (no ranks in escape artist is a bad idea, so I was nice and didn't have the constriction remove the hold breath option or anything). Cleric PC says, "Oh noes !" and starts taking off her armor (wtf right). A few rounds of grappling later the wizard is dead and Scout is unconscious. Cleric finally gets armor off and starts scouting the wateredge to try and find everyone, fails a balance check causing a slip/fall of 5' in a random direction via 1d8, and of course falls into the water as well, Also happened to fall right ontop of Kraken. Grappled until death.

TPK

+44 grapple > CR 12 ?

Encounter was just tossed in to give em the last couple xp to get lvl 16. Party was rather unoptimized and unprepared obviously.

[mikej]

A few years back. I once had a player die from a pack of wolves. Does that count? We were just starting ( 3rd lv ), he was this Duergar Fighter. I was away for something, I don't remember. Soo he charged into this pack of "very" hungry wolves. Thought he could handle some weak animals. Needless to say the wolves started to rip him to sheds. The Rogue tried to help by throwing some Alchemist Fire but missed. We took a few minutes discussing how real-like wolves would react to fire and how badly hungry they were. DM ruled that the wolves "were that hungry" to not be scared ( slightly startled ) by that burst of fire. The Rogue I think was safe by hiding on top a boulder. The Fighter eventually died but the Rogue manage to successfully scare away the wolves with another Alchemist Fire but ended hitting the Fighter as well. I eventually show up a few rounds later and I could've helped since I was Druid.

[taltamir]

TPK

+44 grapple > CR 12 ?

Encounter was just tossed in to give em the last couple xp to get lvl 16. Party was rather unoptimized and unprepared obviously.

no matter your level, being unprepared and going into someplace dangerous can be your doom.
they went into someplace with deep water wearing heavy armor and not having a water breathing spell on... one single low level spell would give the entire party water breathing AND freedom of movement while underwater AND a decent swim score. meaning immunity to grapple, and no need for swim checks...

it seems a lot of stories like that have to do with environmental hazards... drowning, lava pits, falling off of a cliff...

[Optimystik]

I dunno, Pixie seems worth its LA.

Hence the "almost invariably," I would imagine.

For Pixies it depends on the class. A Pixie Wizard or even Fighter is likely not worth it, but a Warlock or Rogue would be.

[Tyndmyr]

I dunno, that's what saving throws are for, and these were expensive weapons, if the pcs survived one volley, that's it (and the enemies were non-pc classes with average scores).

And they weren't area effects, just "if you're hit" types.

But then, I think players (especially casters) should earn level two, not just endure level one.

Yeah...don't rely on consumables. They change the effective ECL of the encounter because, well, the mobs don't have magical SoS attacks by default. Consumables are useful later, if you're trying to make unique, tough challenges, but yeah, you don't use thousands of GP worth of such items on a first level encounter, it's not appropriate.

[Mesiolan]

I remember playing "Axe of the Dwarvish Lords" back in 2nd ed times, with four 14th-level PCs.

A dwarven stronghold is occupied by goblins for some decades, and trained by a high-level NPC to defend it vs. adventurers.
- every crossbow bolt they fired was poisoned and filthy (save vs disease)
- the rooms were filled with filthy rubbly to leave only 3'6'' high rooms, making it cramped space for medium cratures
- the filth gave off "stinking cloud" effects as soon it was hit by a fireball
- the goblins used the dwarven defense system (murder holes, traps, shifting passages...)
- they were very fond of alchemists's fire, acid, tanglefoot bags, rot grubs, smoke sticks, poisonous mold..
- some crazy goblins had a "glyph of warding" painted on their trousers - when they were about to loose the battle, they ripped open their clothes, and showed us the naked a**, and died in a 6d6 fart...

After three rooms with regular goblins with elite equipment and preparation, we retreated to patch us up.

[Grommen]

It's never the boss fights where everyone dies. It's always the pick up fights, the ones with kobalds or some other really weak encounter and it normaly involves one character doing something increadably stupid, or having some really bad luck.

I think the worst one was the very first encounter I ever DM'ed with 3ed. We made 3 Dwarven characters and decided to leave the clan home and head out into the big wide world.

Well naturally you have to fight orks first right? I mean their what 1/3 CR! That's harmless. So being dwarves they don't exactly stop to think about gaining a tactical advantage, they just CHARGE!!!!

Why the hell did orks have Greataxes and 18 STR and only get classified at 1/3?

We died so horrid that I declared a "Do over!". And died the second time as well. So being the clever DM I was, I decided that we only managed to get knocked out and woke up in the captivity of the orks (yes I know a self respecting dwarf would have died on the spot but what can I do?). The orks quickly put us to work in the Gladitoral Arena for their amusement. We decided that Kobalds were 1/4 CR so maybe we needed to start with them.

It was a dark day indeed! Three dwarves defeated by a pack of kobs in the fighting pin. :smallsigh:

The rest are just too numerous to tell. Their was this one time where the barbarian, fully in rage, accidentally slipped (rolled a fumble) with his greatsword and hit the party's bard (also rolled a fumble) by mystake (we use fumble charts), splitting the bard in half, resulting in us nearly dieing when we got swarmed by the baddies.

One time we nearly got killed by the Box (of Pandora). Little animated wood dolls in a low hanging cave in a box. By the end of the fight the barbarian lay dieing (with a crit to the jimmies), the rest of the party had like 10HP between them, and the cave was on fire from someone tossing flaming oil on the subject. Make matters worse the cleric in the party tried creating water to put out the flames. He tried to retract the action but it was too late the DM was already falling out of his chair laffing. We were DOOMED!

[Eldariel]

It's never the boss fights where everyone dies. It's always the pick up fights, the ones with kobalds or some other really weak encounter and it normaly involves one character doing something increadably stupid, or having some really bad luck.

I think the worst one was the very first encounter I ever DM'ed with 3ed. We made 3 Dwarven characters and decided to leave the clan home and head out into the big wide world.

Well naturally you have to fight orks first right? I mean their what 1/3 CR! That's harmless. So being dwarves they don't exactly stop to think about gaining a tactical advantage, they just CHARGE!!!!

Why the hell did orks have Greataxes and 18 STR and only get classified at 1/3?

We died so horrid that I declared a "Do over!". And died the second time as well. So being the clever DM I was, I decided that we only managed to get knocked out and woke up in the captivity of the orks (yes I know a self respecting dwarf would have died on the spot but what can I do?). The orks quickly put us to work in the Gladitoral Arena for their amusement. We decided that Kobalds were 1/4 CR so maybe we needed to start with them.

It was a dark day indeed! Three dwarves defeated by a pack of kobs in the fighting pin. :smallsigh:

Fail party is fail. That said, Orc Warriors should have 17 Str, not 18, and they're statted out with Falchions. 18 Str increases their danger a LOT since their damage bonus becomes +6 meaning a crit is pretty much autokill (and a normal hit is like to drop all but Barbarians), and there's the To Hit bonus too.

[elonin]

Fail party is fail. That said, Orc Warriors should have 17 Str, not 18, and they're statted out with Falchions. 18 Str increases their danger a LOT since their damage bonus becomes +6 meaning a crit is pretty much autokill (and a normal hit is like to drop all but Barbarians), and there's the To Hit bonus too.

I've never been the dm so don't know much about the cr system. Doesn't the cr advance with class levels? Also, if the orc cr is lower than other player races that reflects the unpopularity of that race. How many people who optimize tactically take orc for wizard?

[Mike_G]

Fail party is fail. That said, Orc Warriors should have 17 Str, not 18, and they're statted out with Falchions. 18 Str increases their danger a LOT since their damage bonus becomes +6 meaning a crit is pretty much autokill (and a normal hit is like to drop all but Barbarians), and there's the To Hit bonus too.

The 3.0 Orcs were statted with Greataxes. I don't remember their Str.

Even so, with a +3 from 17 Str, x 1.5 for two handed, + 2d4 for Falchion, you're looking at a minimum of 6 Hp per hit, an average of 9, and a good Crit range. That's pretty brutal for a 1st level PC.

Cr 1/3 Orc warriors do a lot of damage. They also pretty much die when hit, but it can be a game of Rocket Tag.

[Eldariel]

The 3.0 Orcs were statted with Greataxes. I don't remember their Str.

Even so, with a +3 from 17 Str, x 1.5 for two handed, + 2d4 for Falchion, you're looking at a minimum of 6 Hp per hit, an average of 9, and a good Crit range. That's pretty brutal for a 1st level PC.

Cr 1/3 Orc warriors do a lot of damage. They also pretty much die when hit, but it can be a game of Rocket Tag.

Aye, but +2 damage from 18 Str is pretty effin' huge. Suddenly you go from minimum of 6 to minimum of 8. That's more damage than an arcanist can reasonably have HP, the average 11 is a 12 Con Fighter's HP (knocking all but the toughest Clerics/Rangers/Rogues/Bards/Druids/etc. out).

Without the +2, your average Cleric/Ranger/Druid at 14 Con would at least survive (at 0, but yeah). That's why it brought it up; that one point of Str makes all the difference.