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View Full Version : Factotum vs Rogue , which do you prefer?



Soranar
2010-01-01, 01:50 PM
I'm not sure why a skill based character has less skills than a rogue (Factotum has 6x while rogue has 8x)

but I was wondering which you prefer as a skillmonkey and why

since Factotum has access to any skill he could be better than a rogue but I'm not sure which non-rogue skills would be usefull

Kylarra
2010-01-01, 01:52 PM
Factotum, because he can boost INT only and still be pretty much fine, so the skillpoint discrepancy isn't as great as you think, as it doesn't really exist.

Milskidasith
2010-01-01, 01:52 PM
Rogues are skill monkeys as well, so of course they have lots of skill points. Even more, factotums can base everything on int, so they probably have equal amounts.

As for who I prefer, factotums. Better for gestalting, and a lot cooler, too.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-01-01, 02:53 PM
Factota for the win. The SADness of the class allows you to pump everything into INT which lets you more than make up for the 2-point headstart rogue gets.

Geddoe
2010-01-01, 02:56 PM
As a skillmonkey, I guess the factotum.

I like rogue better for an actual character though. Still think it is a bit of bs that factota get to rub their d8's in the rogue's face though.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-01-01, 02:58 PM
One thing Rogue does have on Factota is Skill Mastery which, if you're building a dedicated skillmonkey, is pretty sweet.

Draz74
2010-01-01, 03:19 PM
Yeah, they're both great classes (though I prefer to houserule a couple tweaks to each of them). Which is better depends on the kind of character you want to make.

I guess overall I tend to be a bigger Factotum fan, though.

HCL
2010-01-01, 03:28 PM
Rogue might be a bit more dip friendly if you just want search/disable device and trapfinding, but factotum and beguiler better classes as they level

Ceridan
2010-01-01, 04:00 PM
Yeah, they're both great classes (though I prefer to houserule a couple tweaks to each of them). Which is better depends on the kind of character you want to make.

I guess overall I tend to be a bigger Factotum fan, though.


What house rules would you suggest for both?

Draz74
2010-01-01, 04:09 PM
What house rules would you suggest for both?

Meh, well, frankly don't get me started, because the real answer is "convert both classes into a series of appropriate feats and integrate them into a Generic Classes system." :smallwink:

But assuming I'm trying for a modicum of self-control and simplicity ...

For the Rogue, it's mostly making Sneak Attack work more or less against everything. If Dungeonscape is allowed, the Penetrating Strike feature comes pretty close to what I want anyway (and is a no-brainer). Other than that, just minor things like allowing them to ignore XP penalties for multiclassing on a case-by-case basis.

For the Factotum, the main thing is to change Font of Inspiration so that it can only be taken once, scales, and is a good but not a must-have feat. Then I'd like to give them the Chameleon's Floating Feat as a high-level class feature (or maybe just allow them to take it as a feat). Limit Cunning Surge to 1/round regardless of Inspiration points. Allow Cunning Strike more than once on the same attack. Nerf or ban Iaijutsu Focus exploits. Maybe give them a couple free Tome of Battle maneuvers.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-01-01, 04:16 PM
Spellthief, but that's mainly for the love that is Unseen Seer. Between Rogue and Factotum themselves, however, I'd go Factotum, due to the insane synergy and Intelligence based SADness that there is, which can push their skills higher than the rogue's.

Temotei
2010-01-01, 04:46 PM
Factotum. Not only for the reasons listed above, but they can also pick some spells to boost their skills if they need it.

aje8
2010-01-01, 05:15 PM
Factotum. Alot more options in combat makes them more fun, to me, to play.

Soranar
2010-01-01, 05:26 PM
Well I never tried a Factotum, learned it existed in this forum and I had to dig up the book online, but most of it's abilities don't seem that great at first glance.

Although , if I read it right, you get to entirely bypass SR when you cast? That alone seems pretty sweet yet you get so few spells I wonder what could be truly useful.

And eventually adding your INT to AC on top of a light armor is really nice.

and the description of "spellcasting" alone is worth it:

You know that with a few weird hand
gestures and an array of grunts and bizarre
words, you can conjure up something
that looks like a spell.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-01, 05:29 PM
It can do anything. Int to AB and Damage, Int to Init, 1d6+HD SA damage, and free actions. Not to mention things like UMD, Autohypnosis, and Iajatsu Focus as class skills.

Boci
2010-01-01, 05:56 PM
Factotum is so much better. I just wish there was a spelless ACF.


Nerf or ban Iaijutsu Focus exploits.

Any particular reason for that? I've used it in a game before and it didn't seem OP.

The Glyphstone
2010-01-01, 06:07 PM
Iajatsu Focus isn't OP. Iajatsu Focus + Gnomish Quickrazor + Quick Draw is OP.

Draz74
2010-01-01, 06:09 PM
Factotum is so much better. I just wish there was a spelless ACF.
There are a number of homebrewed ones. Mostly involving ToB maneuvers instead.


Any particular reason for that? I've used it in a game before and it didn't seem OP.

Partly flavor -- doesn't make any sense why Factotum would have access to an exotic but effective pseudo-Asian battle technique when most other martial classes (including Swordsage, for crying out loud) don't.

Partly balance -- it is OP if you combo it with the right things (e.g. Gnomish Quickrazors). Once you get to the whole Haberdash effect ...

And partly game design aesthetic -- the system wasn't designed to let a skill cause melee damage. Maybe a skill like that would be a good idea; but if so, it needs to be built into the system from the ground up, as the main way to increase melee damage; not accessible by specialized corner builds because of strange synergy between two relatively obscure splatbooks.

Boci
2010-01-01, 06:12 PM
Iajatsu Focus isn't OP. Iajatsu Focus + Gnomish Quickrazor + Quick Draw is OP.

I used the first two (you do not need quick draw with a quick razor) and it wasn't OP: It was sudden strike that I had to invest resources and make sacrifices to get.


There are a number of homebrewed ones. Mostly involving ToB maneuvers instead..

I figured. I'm more in favour of floating feats.


Partly flavor -- doesn't make any sense why Factotum would have access to an exotic but effective pseudo-Asian battle technique when most other martial classes (including Swordsage, for crying out loud) don't..

That is the factotums flavour.


Partly balance -- it is OP if you combo it with the right things (e.g. Gnomish Quickrazors). Once you get to the whole Haberdash effect ....

Dunno what the haberdash effect is but I used a gnome quick razor and it wasn't OP, just powerful. The only problem my DM had was the potential to blow all inspration points on SA usig the moquito bite skill trick, but I never used that. I had to spend a feat and skill points for it to work and I gave up my ability to make AoO. Hardly OP.


And partly game design aesthetic -- the system wasn't designed to let a skill cause melee damage. Maybe a skill like that would be a good idea; but if so, it needs to be built into the system from the ground up, as the main way to increase melee damage; not accessible by specialized corner builds because of strange synergy between two relatively obscure splatbooks.

I can understand the feeling behnd this, so why don't you give iaijutsu focus to all full BAB class and medium BAB on a case by case basis?

Zaydos
2010-01-01, 07:07 PM
I haven't played a factotum; or any game where Iajutsu Focus was allowed (as a DM I didn't like OA samurai as a class, thought it needed work and didn't use its signature skill; as a player I've never seen anything OA used except twice [then I was the one using it] and one of those was a specifically OA campaign).

That said Factotum definitely looks the better skill monkey for Str, Int and, for crying out loud, Dex based skill checks. Even the Charisma based ones they can do better because 1) they can put a higher Charisma with less problem, 2) more skill points, 3) + level to skill 1/day. Even Wisdom based ones the same comes up. Then there's spells.

Rogue looks good in combat, though. Flanking + Sneak Attack is good and you can use feats to improve it.

If I want a "Jack-of-all-Trades" skill monkey I'd definitely go Factotum. If I want a thug/assassin I'd go rogue. Factotum is less specialized, but rogues are the hit-man/killer. I like Factotums for bringing the "Specialized in being a Generalist" into the game, but I wish rogues were a little, better?, at what they are (and why was their name changed? I liked my thieves).

Right now? I'd definitely play a factotum over a rogue, just to try it out. Only problem is finding something to do every round other than Iajutsu Focus and Font of Inspiration spam. The class has options for it (Int to Attack & Damage, but that uses an IP; spells but so few, etc) I just don't know where to start. (Did stat out one that looks fun, used poisoned arrows; 1 level from Minor Creation and the ability to make 1000 doses of Black Lotus Extract :smallsmile:) Ended up going with a wizard instead (liked the wizard's RP too much, wild mage with a pixie familiar that is the pure incarnation of his madness) but this one was in second (LE factotum poison-master/politician ultimately seeking to use the party to gain the power to take over the world).

Draz74
2010-01-01, 07:16 PM
Only problem is finding something to do every round other than Iajutsu Focus and Font of Inspiration spam. The class has options for it (Int to Attack & Damage, but that uses an IP; spells but so few, etc) I just don't know where to start.

Is it too much to ask to not have a standard plan of what to do "every round," but to make it up as you go?

I haven't gotten to play a Factotum in a consistent campaign yet to see if this works, but I believe it's the intent behind the class.

sonofzeal
2010-01-01, 07:23 PM
Factotum. I love flexible generalists, and Factota are probably the cleanest incarnation of that in the game. They also make unparalleled acrobats.

Boci
2010-01-01, 07:26 PM
Is it too much to ask to not have a standard plan of what to do "every round," but to make it up as you go?

I haven't gotten to play a Factotum in a consistent campaign yet to see if this works, but I believe it's the intent behind the class.

Too a certain exstent yes. With your int to most things you have a level of sponteniousness with out gimping yourself, but your sells are not so and a basic plan never hurts. When I played a factotum I didn't actually use cunning surge that much, only to full attack and cast a spell or partial charge and full attack. I prefered to use my IPs for int to X.

SurlySeraph
2010-01-01, 07:47 PM
Rogue, purely for the Sneak Attack. Factotums are stronger and more flexible, but "I stab him in the back for 1d4+10d6 damage. Six times." is just so much fun. Adding in Staggering Strike, Assassin's Stance, Craven etc. for better sneak attacking is always fun, too. I tend to prefer full-BAB sneak attackers (Nightsong Infiltrator, the Sneak Attack Fighter ACF, etc.) when I can get them, since I prefer playing frontline combatants to skillmonkeys.

Pyro_Azer
2010-01-01, 07:51 PM
I prefer to play jack of all trades characters. This causes me to like factotum over rogue.

Thurbane
2010-01-01, 08:04 PM
I'm not sure why a skill based character has less skills than a rogue (Factotum has 6x while rogue has 8x)

but I was wondering which you prefer as a skillmonkey and why

since Factotum has access to any skill he could be better than a rogue but I'm not sure which non-rogue skills would be usefull
I think the 6 skill points was so as to not render the Rogue totally redundant.

I've not played either in 3.5, but I'd lean towards...Beguiler. All that plus full casting? Yes please. :smallbiggrin:

Pluto
2010-01-01, 08:19 PM
As far as being a skillmonkey class, the Factotum trounces the Rogue hard.

Its 1/day skill boosts more than make up for the difference in skill points.
Built-in casting for all those spells that make skills redundant (Fly, Invisibility, Knock, etc.) gives the Factotum another slight edge.
All the various rewards the Factotum class gives for high Intelligence give even another nudge toward the lead.

Whether the Factotum can match the Beguiler, Jack of All Trades Bard* or Cloistered Cleric as a party skillmonkey, I'm not sure. It probably depends on whether the Factotum is allowed to continually blow Giacomo-level proportions of WBL on consumable scrolls/wands/etc.

*I know Bardic Knack/Jack of All Trades is not legal by RAW.
But Jack of All Trades does nothing by RAW.
I believe the intentions of the feat and the ACF are clear and complimentary.
And it's just too nifty for me to even consider disallowing.

JaronK
2010-01-01, 08:26 PM
Iajatsu Focus isn't OP. Iajatsu Focus + Gnomish Quickrazor + Quick Draw is OP.

Because, you know, doing damage equivalent to Sudden Strike is totally overpowered. Wait, no it's not. Iajuitsu Focus is just sudden strike that's not gimped by undead, plants, elementals, constructs, and anything else that you can't crit on. With Quickrazors, you spend a feat (you don't need Quick Draw, just EWP) to get to use it multiple times per combat. How is that overpowered?

Anyway, Factotums are decidedly better skillmonkeys. Int to all Str and Dex based skills effectively gives them huge bonuses to those skills, eventually outweighing what skill mastery could do for you. +level to each skill once per day means that for rarely used skills (appraise, handle animal, craft, etc) you can spend a single skill point and still have mastered the skill for all intents and purposes. Access to spells like Magecraft and Knock is huge too.

Also, not having every undead, plant, construct, and elemental thing out there gimp you really helps.

JaronK

Coplantor
2010-01-01, 08:46 PM
Factotum is my favourite class, so yeah...

Why? Well, I really like to play the adventurer for adventure's sake, go and explore the world, dig up treasures, aquire ancient knowledge, build a story of yourself that bards willsing for ever. Also, I really like indiana jones.

Longcat
2010-01-02, 02:52 AM
Factotum, because of it's inherent versatility. Besides, I've always liked the Indiana Jones/Angus MacGyver flavour associated with the class.

Optimystik
2010-01-02, 02:56 AM
Savant.

Why are you all glaring at me like that? :smallconfused:

AirGuitarGod32
2010-01-02, 02:57 AM
Savant.

Why are you all glaring at me like that? :smallconfused:

I agree. Jack of all trades.

cant SOMEBODY break Savant's casting levels?

Curmudgeon
2010-01-02, 03:35 AM
The answer depends on the level. Once you get to Skill Mastery (Rogue level 10) and Savvy Rogue feat (after that) the Rogue is the clear winner. Before that the Factotum has however much edge Inspiration Points can provide.

Lycanthromancer
2010-01-02, 11:41 AM
I absolutely love factotum, especially since the RL games I'm in happen to be gestalt.

However, the changeling substitution level #1 is absolutely sweet. You get Skill Mastery with a bunch of social skills (Bluff, Sense Motive, etc), and you also get access to Craven without the possibility of fiddly rules interpretation, as well as the whole (8+int)x4 skill points (and you get back trapfinding via factotum), so a single dip at level 1 is incredible, assuming you're a changeling (of course). Being changeling also opens up chameleon, so...

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-02, 01:35 PM
Because, you know, doing damage equivalent to Sudden Strike is totally overpowered. Wait, no it's not. Iajuitsu Focus is just sudden strike that's not gimped by undead, plants, elementals, constructs, and anything else that you can't crit on. With Quickrazors, you spend a feat (you don't need Quick Draw, just EWP) to get to use it multiple times per combat. How is that overpowered?

JaronK

IIRC, Iaijutsu Focus requires the enemy to be FF'ed, right Jaron? If yes, then I do wonder how you get the damage bonus every round after the first without spells like Grease.

imperialspectre
2010-01-02, 02:55 PM
Ring of Blinking or something similar comes to mind. Basically the same things rogues do to do reasonable DPS.

Geddoe
2010-01-02, 02:58 PM
Blinking doesn't work. That just denies dex. Iaijutsu requires the opponent to be flat-footed.

JaronK
2010-01-02, 03:54 PM
IIRC, Iaijutsu Focus requires the enemy to be FF'ed, right Jaron? If yes, then I do wonder how you get the damage bonus every round after the first without spells like Grease.

Yes, but you're a Factotum! You can cast Grease once per day (which probably covers one encounter). You can also take Craft Wand if you want and make your own Wands of Grease (after all, the save DC isn't what matters, but you do want a caster level of about 4). Your Int to Initiative on an Int and Dex based class ensures a high initiative, meaning you can often strike before your opponent has acted. Your high hide modifier, combined with Darkstalker (you DID take that feat, right?) means you can often get a surprise round. Getting Sapphire Nightmare Blade can also be a handy method (a cheap item can do that once per encounter, but note you'll need a decent concentration score). Plus you can get extra actions if necessary to cast spells like Grease and Hold person and then full attack.

But yes, it does require a bit of work to trigger, and you may not always be able to do so.

JaronK

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-02, 03:55 PM
Yes, but you're a Factotum! You can cast Grease once per day (which probably covers one encounter). You can also take Craft Wand if you want and make your own Wands of Grease (after all, the save DC isn't what matters, but you do want a caster level of about 4). Your Int to Initiative on an Int and Dex based class ensures a high initiative, meaning you can often strike before your opponent has acted. Your high hide modifier, combined with Darkstalker (you DID take that feat, right?) means you can often get a surprise round. Getting Sapphire Nightmare Blade can also be a handy method (a cheap item can do that once per encounter, but note you'll need a decent concentration score). Plus you can get extra actions if necessary to cast spells like Grease and Hold person and then full attack.

But yes, it does require a bit of work to trigger, and you may not always be able to do so.

JaronK

As I thought. The Blurring property on your weapon will help, but there's still some problems with getting it 24-7 against everyone.

JaronK
2010-01-02, 04:14 PM
Yeah, I forgot Blurring... definitely an enchantment worth having.

But yes, you're not likely to IF 24/7. I find in practice it's equivalent to sneak attack... sneak attack has more stuff that's just immune (Plants, Elementals, Undead, Constructs, and so on) while IF has harder trigger conditions (Flat Footed vs Flanking or Dex Denied). The nice thing is that IF works when you want it to (since you pick when you cast the Grease, and it almost always works in the first round) while Sneak Attack may not work at all on the monsters that are most dangerous to you (the boss fights).

JaronK