Where is Cindy?

[jiriku]

Every now and then I run across a reference to a wizard build called Cindy, created by Emperor Tippy. My Google-Fu is insufficient to find her, so can someone in the know please educate me about Cindy?

[SparkMandriller]

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=5890

[Signmaker]

Tippy was very secretive as to his 20th level makeup of Cindy. The only currently available one is the one posted above.

[Fortuna]

Wait, he used it as an argument and kept it secret? That seems wrong.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Wait, he used it as an argument and kept it secret? That seems wrong.He used the 18th level build in 20th level arguments. It was more than enough most of the time. The 20th level build was developed for a challenge in conjunction with another Incantrix, designed to build off of each other.

[Signmaker]

He used the 18th level build in 20th level arguments. It was more than enough all* of the time. The 20th level build was developed for a challenge in conjunction with another Incantrix, designed to build off of each other.

Fixed, aye?

[Draz74]

Wait, he used it as an argument and kept it secret? That seems wrong.

I don't think he ever used Cindy as an argument as much as other people on the Forums (Cindy's fans) did.

[jiriku]

Hmmm. Cindy's build doesn't seem that special. Your basic metamagic-enhancer addict wizard with a powerball special. Was she the archetype that pioneered the concept?

[Signmaker]

Hmmm. Cindy's build doesn't seem that special. Your basic metamagic-enhancer addict wizard with a powerball special. Was she the archetype that pioneered the concept?

Putting it one way, she made it blatantly obvious. As in, Cindy gave us readily handy numbers of sheer doom to express in discussion.

[Tyndmyr]

I believe so.

[jiriku]

Sweet. I think I'll write her into my sorcerer/incantatrix's backstory as his childhood mentor. :D

"...and so that's how Cindy taught me the technique for firing twenty-four empowered orbs of fire in one round. Allow me to demonstrate on this tarrasque.

KABOOOOOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!

"Effective, neh? Go ahead and cast the wish spell on its corpse now."

[jokey665]

Sweet. I think I'll write her into my sorcerer/incantatrix's backstory as his childhood mentor. :D

"...and so that's how Cindy taught me the technique for firing twenty-four empowered orbs of fire in one round. Allow me to demonstrate on this tarrasque.

KABOOOOOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!

"Effective, neh? Go ahead and cast the wish spell on its corpse now."

*coughthetarrasqueisimmunetofirecough*

[Boci]

*coughthetarrasqueisimmunetofirecough*

Rule 1: Everything burns.
Rule 2: If something doesn't burn, consult rule 1 searing spell.

[Tyndmyr]

Rule 1: Everything burns.
Rule 2: If something doesn't burn, consult rule 1 searing spell.

Dammit, you beat me to it.

In practice, spell reflection is the annoying bit of the terrasque. Immunities are more like suggestions.

[Darrin]

The metamagicked-up-the-wazoo orbs was just one part of the build. I've been told that the Cindy build also involved walking around with all-day persisted buffs, but I don't really see that listed on the sheet. I can see Haste and Shield on her spell list, but not Greater Invisibility... or she's using Improved Blink instead?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The metamagicked-up-the-wazoo orbs was just one part of the build. I've been told that the Cindy build also involved walking around with all-day persisted buffs, but I don't really see that listed on the sheet. I can see Haste and Shield on her spell list, but not Greater Invisibility... or she's using Improved Blink instead?Superior Invisibility.

[tyckspoon]

Plus Ironguard. It's nowhere near the full "No, you can't touch me, not even with that" defensive suite, but with both Persisted (sometimes also Extended, so they last two days and can be dropped on off-days for more combat/utility spells) she's effectively unfindable and immune to metal weaponry. That's usually enough to get the drop on anything threatening and blow it away with an Orb.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Plus Ironguard. It's nowhere near the full "No, you can't touch me, not even with that" defensive suite, but with both Persisted (sometimes also Extended, so they last two days and can be dropped on off-days for more combat/utility spells) she's effectively unfindable and immune to metal weaponry. That's usually enough to get the drop on anything threatening and blow it away with an Orb.That's because this was written before the whole Regen+immunity to energy+immunity to nonlethal cam into play. Superior Invisibility protects from anything but True Seeing, Energy Immunity and Death Ward protect from the majority of attack suites of casters that have True Seeing, and if she's really being paranoid, Invisible Superior Invisibility makes even True Seeing worthless. The lack of any castings of Mindbblank is odd, however. That's a big weakness, especially since she has it in her spellbook.

[nekomata2]

What's the Olin Gisir class listed in the build?

[PhoenixRivers]

The metamagicked-up-the-wazoo orbs was just one part of the build. I've been told that the Cindy build also involved walking around with all-day persisted buffs, but I don't really see that listed on the sheet. I can see Haste and Shield on her spell list, but not Greater Invisibility... or she's using Improved Blink instead?

The use of Gate + Mindrape is the primary way to get all day buffs.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

What's the Olin Gisir class listed in the build?

Olin Gisir is an elf-only prestige class from I want to say Lost Empires of Faerun (it may be PGtF or another FR book, I'm too lazy to double check) that is basically an easier to qualify for Loremaster with basically the same secrets and a few other class features.

[Signmaker]

The use of Gate + Mindrape is the primary way to get all day buffs.

Alternatively, finding the space for a single level of Spelldancer. But I don't think Cindy ever utilized that method.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm interested in knowing how he justified converting the elf racial weapon proficiencies into four bonus feats of his choosing?

[tyckspoon]

I'm interested in knowing how he justified converting the elf racial weapon proficiencies into four bonus feats of his choosing?

Chaos Shuffle. Cast Embrace the Dark Chaos to turn any feats you want into a specific class of feat (Abyssal Heritor, IIRC, from one of the Fiend Folios/Codexes?) Then cast Shun the Dark Chaos to convert them into any other feats you qualify for.

[Nohwl]

Every now and then I run across a reference to a wizard build called Cindy, created by Emperor Tippy. My Google-Fu is insufficient to find her, so can someone in the know please educate me about Cindy?

it wasn't just tippy who made cindy. karsh helped too. my understanding is that karsh made it and asked tippy for help at the end, but i could be wrong.

edit--searched the forums.


Actually it had more to do with me just posting an Incantatrix build that Karsh and I came up with in all the wizard challenge threads. Before that it was mentioned but no one on these boards had shown why it was so powerful.



Stop it, you're making me blush.

Cindy was originally a character I made for a Belial the Leveler playtest, who was then tweaked for the "Grinder" dungeon, though she never actually made it in there. Tippy and I collaborated on her towards the end of the process, especially since he was making his own Incantatrix, but Cindy was my own creation and honestly, I sort of resent the fact that he took my concept and passed it off as his own.

Where exactly did she turn up all over the place? I have to admit that it's weird that everyone knows about her.

[taltamir]

anyone else notice that she is a 6 year old elf, who substituted all 4 of her racial martial weapon proficiencies for 4 seperate free feats?
forget being a human for 1 measly extra feat... elf FTW!

[Douglas]

anyone else notice that she is a 6 year old elf
Educated by Mindrape, as I recall.

[taltamir]

Educated by Mindrape, as I recall.

oh wow... thats just golden.

[Eldan]

Well, it is the easy way to educate an apprentice. Either a hundred years of study or a few Mindrapes.

"Hey you, wanna know magic?"
"Yes?"
"Okay."
BOOOM.

(Yes, I know, Mindrape doesn't have a BOOM. But it should. All spells should.)

[taltamir]

with the spell thematics feat, it DOES have a boom.

also, I guess that means emperor tippy has as many cindys as he cares to make.

[Doc Roc]

This is Cindy?

THIS?

I have nothing to say. I retire to my quarters.

[taltamir]

This is Cindy?

THIS?

I have nothing to say. I retire to my quarters.

I don't understand, is there a problem?

btw, its hillarious that cindy the blaster wizard has banned evocation...

[Signmaker]

I don't understand, is there a problem?

He is underwhelmed. Which is understandable, as practical optimization has come quite a ways since Cindy was crafted.

[taltamir]

He is underwhelmed. Which is understandable, as practical optimization has come quite a ways since Cindy was crafted.

ah... kinda like "ancient technology never seen before crafted by the greatest minds of this ancient civilization" and you go and you find some iron tools that predate any other known ironworks by 1000 years, but are still nothing compared to modern tech...

Yes, chap op has progressed since cindy set the bar.

[Signmaker]

ah... kinda like "ancient technology never seen before crafted by the greatest minds of this ancient civilization" and you go and you find some iron tools that predate any other known ironworks by 1000 years, but are still nothing compared to modern tech...

Yes, chap op has progressed since cindy set the bar.

Yes. More or less.

[SurlySeraph]

Educated by Mindrape, as I recall.

That made me laugh in horror for about a minute. Good Lord, Tippy is so... Tippyish. I remember one of the only discussions I've had with him on these forums, about a year back, where we came to the conclusion that the most reliable way to kill a wizard was to become his girlfriend and then randomly stab him while he's preparing spells.

And yeah, Cindy's nice but nowadays even nonmagical characters can do more damage than that relatively reliably at lower levels. Exhibit A: Uberchargers. Exhibit B: Lightning Maces + Aptitude Kukris + lots of attacks.

[Eldariel]

And yeah, Cindy's nice but nowadays even nonmagical characters can do more damage than that relatively reliably at lower levels. Exhibit A: Uberchargers. Exhibit B: Lightning Maces + Aptitude Kukris + lots of attacks.

Übercharger was dealing tens of thousands of points of damage pretty much since Complete Adventurer, so 2005. That's not...so old. Well, 2003 had CWar though already the 3.0 Übercharger was dealing many thousands, but that used some autocrit trick I recall. And was a Cleric.

They predate Cindy by far. That was never the big thing; the big thing was that Cindy persists a bunch of Wizard-spells. Wizard-spells are pretty effin' good in this game. Like, being undetectable and immortal in half a dozen means along with other contingencies is pretty nice...and that's really only the beginning. So...yeah.

[PhoenixRivers]

And yeah, Cindy's nice but nowadays even nonmagical characters can do more damage than that relatively reliably at lower levels. Exhibit A: Uberchargers. Exhibit B: Lightning Maces + Aptitude Kukris + lots of attacks.

That's because Cindy's built for effectiveness, not raw damage.

How many things won't a 400 damage orb kill?
How many things won't 2 of them kill?
What kinda range is that kill method?

Once you hit close to that number, extra damage is largely pointless. So the discerning caster won't focus extra energy on damage, but rather, defense.

Cindy may be one of the most effective blaster builds of its time... But it's still, at its core, a batman wizard.

[tyckspoon]

That's because Cindy's built for effectiveness, not raw damage.

How many things won't a 400 damage orb kill?
How many things won't 2 of them kill?
What kinda range is that kill method?

Once you hit close to that number, extra damage is largely pointless. So the discerning caster won't focus extra energy on damage, but rather, defense.

Cindy may be one of the most effective blaster builds of its time... But it's still, at its core, a batman wizard.

^This. Cindy wasn't and should not be presented as a pinnacle of optimization. What she is is a solid practical demonstration of Wizardly power. When somebody invariably starts a thread or an argument along the lines of "Guys, guys, look! I thought of a way (Monks/Fighters/Samurai/Truenamers) can take down Wizards!" we can respond with "Look. This is Cindy. She can do X offensively and is near-permanently protected with Y. If you can convincingly present a serious threat to her and reliably survive getting attacked by her, we'll admit you found something good. Otherwise, please don't insist on the Absolute Power of your new Sure-Kill Anti-Wizard weapon."

[Xenogears]

That made me laugh in horror for about a minute. Good Lord, Tippy is so... Tippyish. I remember one of the only discussions I've had with him on these forums, about a year back, where we came to the conclusion that the most reliable way to kill a wizard was to become his girlfriend and then randomly stab him while he's preparing spells.

Clearly the most reliable way to kill a wizard involves Mindrape, a random person, and the spell Love's Pain. Mindrape random person into loving wizard and then keep casting Love's Pain until the wizard dies.

[taltamir]

question, how come he can replace the 4 racial martial weapon proficiencies with other feats of his choice?

[ex cathedra]

The Dark Chaos Shuffle. There are two spells, namely Shun the Dark Chaos and Embrace the Dark Chaos. He casts Embrace the Dark Chaos to exchange all of his feats for vile feats. This includes his racial weapon proficiency feats. He then casts Shun the Dark Chaos, and gets to reassign all of the Vile feats he has for normal feats. This makes his racial weapon proficiency feats four feats of the caster's choice. Hence, The Dark Chaos shuffle.

[taltamir]

The Dark Chaos Shuffle. There are two spells, namely Shun the Dark Chaos and Embrace the Dark Chaos. He casts Embrace the Dark Chaos to exchange all of his feats for vile feats. This includes his racial weapon proficiency feats. He then casts Shun the Dark Chaos, and gets to reassign all of the Vile feats he has for normal feats. This makes his racial weapon proficiency feats four feats of the caster's choice. Hence, The Dark Chaos shuffle.

Oh Em Eff Gee! That is insane! talk about broken spells :)... makes elves damn good starting race.
My DM will throw the PHB at me if I try that though :)

[PhoenixRivers]

Clearly the most reliable way to kill a wizard involves Mindrape, a random person, and the spell Love's Pain. Mindrape random person into loving wizard and then keep casting Love's Pain until the wizard dies.

No, the girlfriend thing works better.

(1) Wizards must have 8 uninterrupted hours of rest to prepare.
-Can a girlfriend prevent this in a way that won't get her killed? Yes.

(2) After a week of the above, when he's scraping the barrel and using Prestidigitation offensively? She lets him rest.

(3) He starts preparing his empty spell list, and she shanks him.

[BobVosh]

What if he mind rapes her into never betraying him?

Isn't it safer to use love's pain from anywhere in the same plane?

[taltamir]

What if he mind rapes her into never betraying him?

Isn't it safer to use love's pain from anywhere in the same plane?

you can use mind rape to simple READ the entirety of a person's memory and thoughts without actually modifying anything... of course, when he reads her mind and finds out she is there to murder him...

everything is better with mind rape :)...

cure phobias, remove painful memories, foster loyalty and happiness, remove suicidal tendencies, remove self destructive tendencies, educate people via direct knowledge transplant...

the positive and righteous uses are endless (as are the evil ones)

[2xMachina]

He'd probably divine it out and go looking for you before you get to it.

That said, well prepared wizard = unkillable. Well prepared elan wizard = immortal.

[PhoenixRivers]

He'd probably divine it out and go looking for you before you get to it.

That said, well prepared wizard = unkillable. Well prepared elan wizard = immortal.

Argument breaks down in the presence of another well prepared wizard.

[Setra]

Argument breaks down in the presence of another well prepared wizard.
How would they find eachother if they're too busy resting 16 hours a day? :smalltongue:

Not to mention the usual 'super ultra batman wizard' tactic is to teleport away, then scry.

They'd meet, both teleport away, try to scry eachother only to find they're both in MMM's :smalltongue:

I'm mostly joking though.

[taltamir]

the first wizard has divined that there is no point mind raping a woman to seduce his enemy to stab him in his sleep because his enemy will mind rape her to ensure she isn't an assassin...

mindrape and scrying, it makes everything better.

[PhoenixRivers]

How would they find eachother if they're too busy resting 16 hours a day? :smalltongue:

Not to mention the usual 'super ultra batman wizard' tactic is to teleport away, then scry.

They'd meet, both teleport away, try to scry eachother only to find they're both in MMM's :smalltongue:

I'm mostly joking though.

Ah, but they both detect each other's scry sensors, and foil them with cunning ruses. They then meet in the material plane for a game of rock-paper-scissors, where the loser agrees to die.

Then whichever wizard is less ethical says "1, 2, Disintegrate".


the first wizard has divined that there is no point mind raping a woman to seduce his enemy to stab him in his sleep because his enemy will mind rape her to ensure she isn't an assassin...

mindrape and scrying, it makes everything better.
Craft Contingent Mindrape on her? For when another mindrape ends?

[taltamir]

Ah, but they both detect each other's scry sensors, and foil them with cunning ruses. They then meet in the material plane for a game of rock-paper-scissors, where the loser agrees to die.

Then whichever wizard is less ethical says "1, 2, Disintegrate".

disintegrate is a sub par spell.

[PhoenixRivers]

disintegrate is a sub par spell.

It's easier to type than "maximizedtimestopmawofchaosmawofchaosmawofchaosdim ensionlockforcecage"

[Sir Homeslice]

disintegrate is a sub par spell.

Disintegrate can't be subpar, it's the universal answer to everything.

[PhoenixRivers]

Disintegrate can't be subpar, it's the universal answer to everything.

for a kill spell, it is. For utility, it's excellent.

[Boci]

What she is is a solid practical demonstration of Wizardly power.

Except for the dark chaos shuffle racial feats thing, thats kinda pushing it, but I'm sure she's still powerful without them.

[PhoenixRivers]

Except for the dark chaos shuffle racial feats thing, thats kinda pushing it, but I'm sure she's still powerful without them.

From a high-CharOp standpoint, it's not that bad. There are ways to gain feats for gold, essentially, with that combo. It wasn't used.

[Douglas]

Craft Contingent Mindrape on her?
:amused::amused::amused:

:smalleek:

We really need some more laughing smilies on this forum, "amused" just doesn't cut it here. That has got to be one of the most bizarre and counter-to-designer's-intent uses for a spell I've ever seen.

Of course, a "properly" paranoid wizard would cast Disjunction on her several times first, removing your Contingent Mindrape before it goes off.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I'd disjunction her.

[PhoenixRivers]

:amused::amused::amused:

:smalleek:

We really need some more laughing smilies on this forum, "amused" just doesn't cut it here. That has got to be one of the most bizarre and counter-to-designer's-intent uses for a spell I've ever seen.

Of course, a "properly" paranoid wizard would cast Disjunction on her several times first, removing your Contingent Mindrape before it goes off.

This is an awful lot of 9th level for a slot.

[Xenogears]

How would they find eachother if they're too busy resting 16 hours a day? :smalltongue:

Not to mention the usual 'super ultra batman wizard' tactic is to teleport away, then scry.

They'd meet, both teleport away, try to scry eachother only to find they're both in MMM's :smalltongue:

I'm mostly joking though.

See this is why you use the mindrape/love's pain trick. They need to either abandon the prime material plane, enter an antimagic field, or attack you in your home fortress in order to prevent the damage. 2 of those tactics basically mean instant death and if you can force your opponet to retire to their personal demiplane you've done something right.

[Setra]

See this is why you use the mindrape/love's pain trick. They need to either abandon the prime material plane, enter an antimagic field, or attack you in your home fortress in order to prevent the damage. 2 of those tactics basically mean instant death and if you can force your opponet to retire to their personal demiplane you've done something right.
However would that tactic kill the Wizard's clone?

If we're talking Wizards with their own demiplanes, I'm sure they have at least one backup.

[Boci]

From a high-CharOp standpoint, it's not that bad. There are ways to gain feats for gold, essentially, with that combo. It wasn't used.

True, bit doesn't the word "practical demonstration of Wizardly power" imply this build it supose to be suitable for an actual game?

[Xenogears]

However would that tactic kill the Wizard's clone?

If we're talking Wizards with their own demiplanes, I'm sure they have at least one backup.

Since the spell targets them it would kill the original after enough castings then their soul would travel to the clone which would become the new target. So keep doing it and they run out of clones.

[Setra]

Since the spell targets them it would kill the original after enough castings then their soul would travel to the clone which would become the new target. So keep doing it and they run out of clones.
I'm not actually familiar with the spell, what book is it from?

I need to find it to look for loopholes :smalltongue:

[2xMachina]

http://www.spelldb.com/showSpell.php?id=1224

says it's in BoVD

[Xenogears]

I'm not actually familiar with the spell, what book is it from?

I need to find it to look for loopholes :smalltongue:

The best way to defend against it is to not be on the same plane IIRC. Only other way is to be in an antimagic field which is a bad idea for a wizard. Distance does not matter. You get no saves or SR only the initial target (A mindraped lvl 1 commoner...) does.

[ex cathedra]

Or you scry the target, mindrape yourself into loving them, and Love's Pain yourself.

[Setra]

The best way to defend against it is to not be on the same plane IIRC. Only other way is to be in an antimagic field which is a bad idea for a wizard. Distance does not matter. You get no saves or SR only the initial target (A mindraped lvl 1 commoner...) does.
It would seem you take 1d6 int damage whenever you cast the spell... Would it be possible to run too low on int first?

Like if the other Wizard is healing himself?

It's also a ranged touch attack.. not that that means much :smalltongue:

[Boci]

It would seem you take 1d6 int damage whenever you cast the spell... Would it be possible to run too low on int first?

Anime mage to get the vestige that allows you to regen ability damage?


Like if the other Wizard is healing himself?

Possibly. Would an incantrix persisting greater spell immuniy protect you?

[Eldan]

Actually, why would a wizard live outside the Astral Plane (mental stats replace physical stats, no aging, free quicken spell) or his own demiplane (time traits, most of the above, pretty much perfect security) anyhow? He can just send out Projections or other servants when he needs something.

[taltamir]

Or you scry the target, mindrape yourself into loving them, and Love's Pain yourself.

mindrape a random commmoner to loving them you mean.


Actually, why would a wizard live outside the Astral Plane (mental stats replace physical stats, no aging, free quicken spell) or his own demiplane (time traits, most of the above, pretty much perfect security) anyhow? He can just send out Projections or other servants when he needs something.

true


I'd disjunction her.

who?

[ex cathedra]

mindrape a random commmoner to loving them you mean.
Why? I'm more comfortable with less variables. Mindraping oneself cuts down on bloat.

[Aecus]

Why? I'm more comfortable with less variables. Mindraping oneself cuts down on bloat.

How exactly are you going to get yourself to attack the person you love most in the world?

[ex cathedra]

Through a very dramatic and contrived story of love and betrayal, obviously.

[mostlyharmful]

How exactly are you going to get yourself to attack the person you love most in the world?

contingent suggestion to activate on you casting mindrape on yourself

[Eldariel]

How exactly are you going to get yourself to attack the person you love most in the world?

*shrug* Voluntarily fail your save vs. Geas or whatever beforehand. Then program yourself to do what you want yourself to do.

[taltamir]

*shrug* Voluntarily fail your save vs. Geas or whatever beforehand. Then program yourself to do what you want yourself to do.

but that is all too much effort... thats why you use a level 1 commoner servant...

btw, if you are mindraping yourself, why is the other wizard using a commoner and didn't mindrape himself?
I am more then a bit iffy about the whole mindraping yourself bit, not that I question its possibility, but its safety and its effectiveness for your long term well being. (you are depressed for killing your beloved? you decide you love them too much to kill? etc?).

even if none of that applies, you still have to suffer the anguish of killing your most loved person. You might as well have someone else experience it.

[ex cathedra]

All of those things are easily fixed by, you guessed it, Mindrape.

The thing about paranoid wizards? They're paranoid. I wouldn't trust a commoner, and I honestly don't want to deal with the hassle of acquiring one.

[Boci]

The thing about paranoid wizards? They're paranoid. I wouldn't trust a commoner, and I honestly don't want to deal with the hassle of acquiring one.

Assuming you've got a humming bird familiar, couldn't you mind rape that into loving them?

[taltamir]

All of those things are easily fixed by, you guessed it, Mindrape.

The thing about paranoid wizards? They're paranoid. I wouldn't trust a commoner, and I honestly don't want to deal with the hassle of acquiring one.

1. greater teleport to a specifically prepared dungeon in your demiplane containing a flesh to stoned commoner level 1 which you have mindraped to be a blank slate.
2. Stone to flesh him
3. Mindrape him to love your target
4. When done, mindrape him to be a blank slate again.
5. flesh to stone him.

trust never comes into the picture. oh... and you can just have something like feeble mind on him too.

anyway, does mindrape guarantee you get the results you want? that is, that you could mindrape someone with sufficient accuracy to make them love someone and yet want to kill them, and they will do everything you programmed in ahead of time?


From a high-CharOp standpoint, it's not that bad. There are ways to gain feats for gold, essentially, with that combo. It wasn't used.

how? me wants it!

[ex cathedra]

Ugh, your method wastes time, effort, gold, and spell slots.

Yes.

There are magical locations that grant feats when you visit them. 2+2.

Edit:

Assuming that your familiar is intelligent enough, yes, probably.

[taltamir]

Assuming that your familiar is intelligent enough, yes, probably.

oooh...
1. summon monster 1: celestial monkey. (celestial template has a min int of 3, making them dumb, but sentient). (quickened?)
2. mindrape it
3. love's pain it.

you use lower spell slots too (because you don't have to mind rape yourself a second time)

[shadow_archmagi]

"The best way to kill someone is to first use powerful magic to FORCE yourself to try to kill them, and then to use more powerful magic to re-write your own brain so you love them more than anything else in the world, and then that means you'll use a spell to fire bolts of pure suffering along the channel of love that links you with your target. "


This seems like a REALLY unpleasant way to kill someone. I mean, unpleasant for the killer. Even crawling up a sewer pipe would be more fun than having to kill the one you love the most.

[taltamir]

"The best way to kill someone is to first use powerful magic to FORCE yourself to try to kill them, and then to use more powerful magic to re-write your own brain so you love them more than anything else in the world, and then that means you'll use a spell to fire bolts of pure suffering along the channel of love that links you with your target. "


This seems like a REALLY unpleasant way to kill someone. I mean, unpleasant for the killer. Even crawling up a sewer pipe would be more fun than having to kill the one you love the most.

that is my point... that is why you summon a celestial monkey and mind rape it instead.

here is another problem... lets say you are not a stereotype, you have a loving family... you rewrite your brain to make you love your enemy the most so that he is the target of the love's pain spell... so that means making yourself not love your family anymore.
now when you are done killing him, you rewrite your brain again, why would you want to make yourself love your family again (since you don't love them at the moment, you have no incentive to make yourself love them), and will it be the same love as before?

[Doc Roc]

Through a very dramatic and contrived story of love and betrayal, obviously.

Schism + Mindrape.

[Sanguine]

that is my point... that is why you summon a celestial monkey and mind rape it instead.

here is another problem... lets say you are not a stereotype, you have a loving family... you rewrite your brain to make you love your enemy the most so that he is the target of the love's pain spell... so that means making yourself not love your family anymore.
now when you are done killing him, you rewrite your brain again, why would you want to make yourself love your family again (since you don't love them at the moment, you have no incentive to make yourself love them), and will it be the same love as before?

Contingent Mindrape?

[taltamir]

Contingent Mindrape.

You can preprogram exactly what the mindrape will do? you don't have to actually control what it is doing when it goes off?

[Sanguine]

You can preprogram exactly what the mindrape will do? its not a directed spell?

To tell you the truth I don't know, don't have the BoVD that was supposed to be a question mark not period.

*Gos to edit*

[taltamir]

Mindrape
Enchantment [Evil, Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range:Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw:Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

The caster enters the mind of a creature, learning everything that creature knows. The caster can erase or add memories as she sees fit and alter emotions, opinions, and even alignment. When the caster is done, she can leave the creature insane (as described in the insanity spell) or seemingly unaffected, without any memory of the intrusion.
Severe changes to personality and changes to alignment can be corrected by a break enchantment spell (although an atonement spell might be needed as well, depending on circumstances). Alterations to memories and subtler thoughts can be restored only through use of a miracle or wish.

I don't see how you can "contingently" preprogram changes with this... oh, and you can not use contingency on a 9th level spell anyways.

also... this is the problem with not being a generalist, by banning schools you thought were useless you risk someone making an uberspell in a splatbook for that school. Enchantment is normally a useless school, and yet here we have a very far from useless spell.

[mostlyharmful]

I don't see how you can "contingently" preprogram changes with this... oh, and you can not use contingency on a 9th level spell anyways.

Craft contingent Spell however has no such level limit, and you may be able to preprogram to return yourself to your current state at the casting of the spell, it would mean you get 0 xp and you don't know you've done what youve done but that can be useful too.

[Boci]

Enchantment is normally a useless school, and yet here we have a very far from useless spell.

Might be possible to get around that with metamagic feats that alter a spell's school.

[taltamir]

Might be possible to get around that with metamagic feats that alter a spell's school.

those exist?


Craft contingent Spell however has no such level limit, and you may be able to preprogram to return yourself to your current state at the casting of the spell, it would mean you get 0 xp and you don't know you've done what youve done but that can be useful too.

Contingent spells perform their actions when the contingency is triggered, not when the contingency is cast.
either interpretation will not work for different reasons.
When the contingency triggers, you enter your own mind, know everything you know, and can alter your personality at will... but you should have no reason to.

[Doc Roc]

There's one or two, one of them being from Dragon.


I don't see how you can "contingently" preprogram changes with this... oh, and you can not use contingency on a 9th level spell anyways.

also... this is the problem with not being a generalist, by banning schools you thought were useless you risk someone making an uberspell in a splatbook for that school. Enchantment is normally a useless school, and yet here we have a very far from useless spell.

There are a wide variety of ways to get spells from banned schools if you really want them. As for contingency on 9ths...


What is the sound of one sanctum spell slow-clapping?

What then, is the meaning of a spell level?
Discuss.

[ex cathedra]

I recall that it would be rather easy to make it Necromancy. Elven Generalists are popular, too, though they're generally not my cup of tea.

Also, Reserves of Strength -> Contingency -> Mindrape would probably work, as well.

[taltamir]

I recall that it would be rather easy to make it Necromancy. Elven Generalists are popular, too, though they're generally not my cup of tea.

Also, Reserves of Strength -> Contingency -> Mindrape would probably work, as well.

care to elaborate?

[ex cathedra]

Reserves of Strength is Dragonlance material. It lets you remove the CL-based caps on spells; for example, you could continue making new magic missiles past CL9.

[Boci]

those exist?

Song of the Dead, metamagic feat from dragon: Mind-Affecting spells prepared with this feat effect Intelligence Undead, but not Mindless Undead, Constructs, or any living creatures of any type. Any spell prepared with this Feat becomes a Necromancy spell. It rises the spell's level by +1 though.

[shadow_archmagi]

Reserves of Strength is Dragonlance material. It lets you remove the CL-based caps on spells; for example, you could continue making new magic missiles past CL9.

What.

That sounds like a really powerful feat.

[Sliver]

Contingent spells perform their actions when the contingency is triggered, not when the contingency is cast.
either interpretation will not work for different reasons.
When the contingency triggers, you enter your own mind, know everything you know, and can alter your personality at will... but you should have no reason to.

I believe you cast the spell before the contingent spell comes into effect and set all the variables at the time of setting the contingency.

[ex cathedra]

What.

That sounds like a really powerful feat.

Indeed. It's like Overchannel for spells, in that you can raise your CL by 1-3. You're stunned for an equal number of rounds, or you take damage if you're immune to stun. As an additional ability, you can ignore the CL caps on spells. It's... well, yeah. Banned in the ToS.

[taltamir]

I believe you cast the spell before the contingent spell comes into effect and set all the variables at the time of setting the contingency.

mindrape doesn't have variables. It allows you to change know everything a person knows and change it as you see fit, there is nothing variable about it.

[Flickerdart]

mindrape doesn't have variables. It allows you to change know everything a person knows and change it as you see fit, there is nothing variable about it.
I believe Contingency is the spell that gets modified, so you can make a Contingent Mindrape.

[taltamir]

I believe Contingency is the spell that gets modified, so you can make a Contingent Mindrape.

that isn't the question of the discussion, the question is whether a contingent mindrape can be preprogrammed to make specific changes...

that is, can you, on monday, make a contingent mindrape that will mindrape yourself into loving chocolate, set to go off on friday.
Then on tuesday, mindrape yourself into hating chocolate.
then when Friday arrives, your contingency mindrape goes off and you love it again.

My point is that the way contingency and spells interact is such that you cannot preprogram it.
If you make a contingent mindrape on monday set to go off on friday. then on tuesday you mindrape yourself to hate chocolate.
then on friday your other mindrape goes off, and you have the option to change whatever you want... however, you have no reason to desire to make yourself love choclate again, so you will not.

although... I figured a workaround, when you mindrape yourself, give yourself an overwhelming desire to "correct" yourself later on. you normally wouldn't want to, but your previous mindrape has made you want to mindrape yourself into doing it...
This is all an aside though to whether or not contingency mindrape can be preprogrammed or not.

[ex cathedra]

You have to determine the effects of a spell before it triggers from your contingency. You can't have a Contingent Teleport that lets you decide where you teleport when it triggers; you decide to teleport to your keep beforehand, if I recall correctly. I haven't touched those situations recently, though.

[mostlyharmful]

yup, that's why it's better to have a contingent teleport since it's range allows you to set a destination and be reasonably sure you'll be in range when it goes off, otherwise if you use DD you've got to set a distance and direction. good point.

[taltamir]

You have to determine the effects of a spell before it triggers from your contingency. You can't have a Contingent Teleport that lets you decide where you teleport when it triggers; you decide to have teleport you to your keep beforehand, if I recall correctly. I haven't touched those situations recently, though.

ok firstly:
Contingency
Evocation
Level: Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, M, F
Casting Time: At least 10 minutes; see text
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: One day/level (D) or until discharged
You can place another spell upon your person so that it comes into effect under some condition you dictate when casting contingency. The contingency spell and the companion spell are cast at the same time. The 10-minute casting time is the minimum total for both castings; if the companion spell has a casting time longer than 10 minutes, use that instead.

The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person and be of a spell level no higher than one-third your caster level (rounded down, maximum 6th level).

The conditions needed to bring the spell into effect must be clear, although they can be general. In all cases, the contingency immediately brings into effect the companion spell, the latter being “cast” instantaneously when the prescribed circumstances occur. If complicated or convoluted conditions are prescribed, the whole spell combination (contingency and the companion magic) may fail when called on. The companion spell occurs based solely on the stated conditions, regardless of whether you want it to.

You can use only one contingency spell at a time; if a second is cast, the first one (if still active) is dispelled.

Material Component
That of the companion spell, plus quicksilver and an eyelash of an ogre mage, rakshasa, or similar spell-using creature.

Focus
A statuette of you carved from elephant ivory and decorated with gems (worth at least 1,500 gp). You must carry the focus for the contingency to work.
Where exactly does it say that you need to prespecify the destination of the teleport?

There is a lot of mention of "prestated conditions"; but those are all conditions of the contingency, not of the companion spell.

if you are referring to craft contingent spell, it doesn't either:
CONTINGENT SPELLS
A contingent spell is a single-use, one-spell magical effect
instilled within a specific willing creature. It doesn’t take
up space on the body or have a physical form, and it remains
inactive until triggered (similar to the effect created by a
contingency spell). Once triggered, a contingent spell takes
immediate effect upon the bearer (or is centered in the
bearer’s square if the spell affects an area). A character must
have the Craft Contingent Spell feat (see page 77) to create
contingent spells.
Triggers for contingent spells are usually events that
happen to the bearer of the spell, and can include death,
contracting disease, exposure to a breath weapon or to energy
damage, falling, exposure to poison, exposure to a dangerous
environment (trapped by fi re, plunged underwater, and so
forth), succumbing to sleep or fear effects, gaining negative
levels, or being rendered helpless, deafened, or blinded.
The market price of a contingent spell is spell level × caster
level × 100 gp. A contingent spell must be prepared in the
presence of the person to bear it, and the bearer is subject to
the same restrictions as the creator (unable to cast any other
spells while the contingent spell is being prepared, must be
present for 8 hours each day, and so on). Once assigned to a
bearer, a contingent spell cannot be transferred to another
creature, although it can be destroyed (see below). A contin-
gent spell is tied to the bearer’s body, alive or dead, and stories
circulate among adventurers of contingent spells remaining
quiet for hundreds of years on a slain bearer’s remains, only to
suddenly activate when the proper trigger condition arises.
If the bearer of a contingent spell is the target of dispel
magic, the contingent spell might be permanently dispelled
(but not triggered), as if it were an active spell in effect on
the target creature. In an antimagic fi eld, contingent spells are
temporarily suppressed as all other magic items are.
At any one time, a creature can bear a number of contingent
spells equal to its Hit Dice. Attempts to apply additional
contingent spells beyond this limit simply fail.

Finally, even if it does suffer from such a limitation, then this is more of a problem. Because if teleport / dim door fails if you set a destination that is out of range when the contingency goes off, then the same issue would apply to mind rape. You want to set it to change A into B, except:
1. You do not know what A is because you didn't get to know everything about the target because the spell hasn't taken effect yet (remember, first you learn, then you modify)
1b. when exactly do you get to know everything about the target?
2. A might have changed, rendering the whole thing null. (no different then walking outside the range of the contingent teleport)

[shadow_archmagi]

Indeed. It's like Overchannel for spells, in that you can raise your CL by 1-3. You're stunned for an equal number of rounds, or you take damage if you're immune to stun. As an additional ability, you can ignore the CL caps on spells. It's... well, yeah. Banned in the ToS.

Ah. So, I'm going to assume here that what the feat MEANT to do was

"You can boost the CL over and above the normal limit by up to 3, so a 10th level wizard can ignore the normal 10d6 cap on fireball and deal 13d6"

But what the wording in fact implies is

"You can ignore the CL limit, so a 20th level wizard can cast a fireball as a 21st level wizard and deal 21d6 damage"

[mostlyharmful]

yup. horay for the continued evidence of lack of WotC proofreading.

[taltamir]

this is just sad... is WOTC... "special" in this regard or is it an industry standard to have such badly phrased rules?

[mostlyharmful]

no, thankfully the problem WotC seems to have with proofreading is that it either costs money or it involves seeding your product to the prospective users in 'beta' form for oversight/proofing. WotC is hardly alone in abhorring both but there are companies out there prepared to allow a modicum of trust in their customers.

[Doc Roc]

No, actually? WotC is pretty good about these things.

Consider that, and know fear.

[shadow_archmagi]

No, actually? WotC is pretty good about these things.

Consider that, and know fear.

I always assumed it was this. I mean, if your job is to proofread 30 pages, and there's one improper wording, that seems like a pretty acceptable ratio. Except that then that means 10 messups in the PHB, 10 in each MM, 10 in the DMG, 10 in every splatbook...

Then we get onto the internet and actually FIND all those (and accumulate them!), and say "Gosh D&D has like 700 different screwups!"

[Doc Roc]

The real issue was that WotC didn't do errata well, or really at all.

[nekomata2]

The real issue was that WotC didn't do errata well, or really at all.

Poor poor Tome of Battle...

[Xenogears]

Actually, why would a wizard live outside the Astral Plane (mental stats replace physical stats, no aging, free quicken spell) or his own demiplane (time traits, most of the above, pretty much perfect security) anyhow? He can just send out Projections or other servants when he needs something.

If the target wizard would never leave the astral plane then why would the wizard who is trying to kill him? As for the Demiplane. Well many (though certainly not all) people don't think time traits are part of altering the environment as described in genesis. Also if you do have them work with time traits then you now have two wizards who live in their own personal planes and the whole exercise is moot since nothing can ever kill either of them...

[ex cathedra]

@taltamir:
Firstly, you must cast the spell at the time of casting the contingency. As such, it much have a legal target and pre-determined effects, when you cast it, prior to the contingency triggering. Contingency brings an already-cast spell into effect when a set trigger occurs. You have the Mindrape do one of several things, like removing all things related to A from your memory. There are a lot of ways to handle it.

@shadow_archmagi:
Yes, more or less.

[PhoenixRivers]

True, bit doesn't the word "practical demonstration of Wizardly power" imply this build it supose to be suitable for an actual game?

It IS suitable, for some game types. The builds that are going for "broken" status should all be tested against material that fits in that category. Incantatrix, Easy Metamagic fall in that frame. And this falls in the lower end of wizard potential within that frame.

So, in order to be considered in the same ballpark as those abilities? It must be comparable to those abilities. If not? It's not worthy of being in the "powerful" section of the CO forums.

So yes, it's on the practical side of high Charop. It's meant as a demonstration to test high Charop concepts, and it does a good job of weeding out those that aren't.

[taltamir]

@taltamir:
Firstly, you must cast the spell at the time of casting the contingency. As such, it much have a legal target and pre-determined effects, when you cast it, prior to the contingency triggering. Contingency brings an already-cast spell into effect when a set trigger occurs. You have the Mindrape do one of several things, like removing all things related to A from your memory. There are a lot of ways to handle it.

that assumes amazing flexibility and intelligence on the part of the spell itself. it giving YOU direct access to someone's brain with perfect and total editing capability is one thing (a crazy broken thing), you telling it to do something vague and it doing it at a later time in an intelligent manner is a whole different ball game.

The spell specifically says that it gives YOU access to their mind and it gives YOU the ability to edit their mind. It does not work by having you decide what you want it to do (aka, remove all references to A, then add B) and then having the spell perform said acts independently.

[PhoenixRivers]

Concerning Contingency, Taltamir is right. You cannot preset a mindrape in a CC. From the SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime)

You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.

Thus, until the mindrape comes into effect, you make no decisions about it. Once it comes into effect, you're already mindraped, and don't have the knowledge you need to reverse the process.

[ex cathedra]

Ah. Thanks for the clarification, PR. I've seen it ruled differently, so apologies for spreading misinformation.

[taltamir]

Thanks for that quote, I should have done less block quotes and more spot quotes.
It is easy to miss such things in a wall of text.


Originally Posted by SRD
You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.
You cast the teleport and contingency together, on monday... on tuesday the teleport "comes into effect" when the contingency triggers... at which point you set the "target, ...effect" to be wherever you want.