[3.5]Epic Wealth Formula?

[AustontheGreat1]

Is there a formula for calculating wealth by level. i need to stat the wealth of a character who is level 60. the game is 3.5 DnD

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Is there a formula for calculating wealth by level. i need to stat the wealth of a character who is level 60. the game is 3.5 DnD

You could try to extrapolate one, but the short answer is "no." However, the Epic Level Handbook may have wealth by level up to that point.

[AustontheGreat1]

You could try to extrapolate one, but the short answer is "no." However, the Epic Level Handbook may have wealth by level up to that point.

Epic level handbook doesn't have one that I could find. p.209 of the DMG has wealth up to 40.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Epic level handbook doesn't have one that I could find. p.209 of the DMG has wealth up to 40.

The best you can hope for now is to just hit the chart in the DMG with enough maths to make it work for 60.:smallsigh:

[tyckspoon]

Level 60 wealth is, frankly, whatever the heck you want unless another epic force is trying to prevent you from acquiring something or take away something you already have.

[AustontheGreat1]

Level 60 wealth is, frankly, whatever the heck you want unless another epic force is trying to prevent you from acquiring something or take away something you already have.

I'm gonna go with that.

[Optimystik]

At level 60, you can:

1) Usurp an existing deity and funnel all his offerings into your bank account;
2) Start your own church;
3) Make a solid platinum plane with genesis or epic equivalent and sell it off bit by bit (if you're a caster),
4) Use epic leadership to recruit a caster that can do (3) above if you yourself are not.
5) Abuse the hell out of your epic skill checks.

[Coidzor]

When is arbitrarily high wealth first possible without gross cheese?

[Tyndmyr]

When is arbitrarily high wealth first possible without gross cheese?

This is an incredibly subjective question. Arbitrarily high wealth is technically possible from level 1. Higher levels just give increasing numbers of ways of getting it...

What constitutes gross cheese?

At any rate, epic spellcasting basically removes any possible limits, and gives you whatever ways of gaining money you desire.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

When is arbitrarily high wealth first possible without gross cheese?Define "Gross Cheese". And how much time are you willing to invest for it?

[Optimystik]

When is arbitrarily high wealth first possible without gross cheese?

Well before 60, that's for sure.

Hell, a Warforged commoner can make infinite "arbitrarily high" GP over a long enough time span.

[tyckspoon]

When is arbitrarily high wealth first possible without gross cheese?

Define 'gross cheese'. Now redefine it in the context of having been playing the Epic game for 40 levels, where what used to be gross cheese is now the lowest level spell slot you bother counting. If you wanted arbitrary mundane wealth, you had it at least 30 levels ago.

If you want an estimate of what the 'honest' wealth would be, you could try to extrapolate from the known table.. for example, it's pretty easy to note that you are gaining more than a million gps value per level by 40. Around about level 48 that would probably break 2 million per. So, conservative estimate arrived at by the simple expedient of completely ignoring the remainders (some several hundred thousand GP/level..), at level 60 you would have about 45 million GP worth of stuff. Practically, probably more like 55-60 depending on exactly how you extended the chart. Even in the Epic Handbook there isn't much that has a relevant cost compared to that value- either you just have what you want, or the DM invents prices for even more ridiculously epic things for you to buy. Which comes out to roughly the same thing.

[AngelisBlack]

Eventually you're going to have more wealth than one world even has. I would expect that it would cap out at a certain amount even with interplanar travel factored in as well. What that amount is, I'm not sure, it would depend partly on cosmology.

[Coidzor]

Define "Gross Cheese". And how much time are you willing to invest for it?

Less than the orgy of efreet and solar simulacrums(simulacrii?) from the chain-gate. And with Wish kept to its usual theoretical limitations was what was meant.

The timing frankly was rather careless of us not to have thought about too hard.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Less than the orgy of efreet and solar simulacrums(simulacrii?) from the chain-gate. And with Wish kept to its usual theoretical limitations was what was meant.

The timing frankly was rather careless of us not to have thought about too hard.So, about level 10 or so, you begin to break the economy. You can use 5th level slots for things like Wall of Iron and Fabricate for NI mundane items, then sell them to outfit an army. If one king won't buy them, Teleport to another. Or Planeshift to Sigil, someone there wants them.

[Mongoose87]

By level 60, there aught to be someone in your party with a high enough diplomacy skill to convince droves of important people to donate to your cause, or bluff to make them think you have a cause. That, right there, is an arbitrarily high amount of wealth, free of anything remotely cheesy.

[elonin]

Whatever the dm says it is!

[Sstoopidtallkid]

By level 60, there aught to be someone in your party with a high enough diplomacy skill to convince droves of important people to donate to your cause, or bluff to make them think you have a cause. That, right there, is an arbitrarily high amount of wealth, free of anything remotely cheesy.If all it takes to get arbitrary money is a Bluff or a Diplomacy check, Bards just became the richest people in the world. 4th level gets Glibness, which is basically auto-success on a Bluff check. Diplomacy is even easier to boost, with multiple builds for getting DC 60 at level 2.

[Zeta Kai]

If all it takes to get arbitrary money is a Bluff or a Diplomacy check, Bards just became the richest people in the world. 4th level gets Glibness, which is basically auto-success on a Bluff check. Diplomacy is even easier to boost, with multiple builds for getting DC 60 at level 2.

It's not cheese if RAW is really, really dumb. :smallannoyed:

[Tyndmyr]

Less than the orgy of efreet and solar simulacrums(simulacrii?) from the chain-gate. And with Wish kept to its usual theoretical limitations was what was meant.

The timing frankly was rather careless of us not to have thought about too hard.

Well, starting at level 11, you can start using tricks such as casting walls of iron. these are permanent, and take up only a sixth level slot. By RAW, they are 1inch thick, and cover an area equal to 5ft*5ft*CL. So, a minimum of two of these every day you're not adventuring.

If you do adventure, the amount you can cast climbs wildly, as does the amount harvested per cast. See also, CL boosters. Thus, it's not actually infinite money, but it is a very large source of income that grows incredibly rapidly.



If you want to get started two levels sooner, Fabricate is a way of turning raw materials into finished products instantly. You don't even need a craft check unless it's something with a high degree of craftsmanship. So, no MW items and the like this way, but basic mundane things? Go nuts. A small steel mirror, which basically is just a small flat bit of steel? 10GP each. It weighs half a pound. Fabricate affects 1 cubic foot*CL, so an absolute minimum of 9 cubic feet per cast. Steel weighs 490lbs per cubic foot, so that brings us to a total of 88,200 gold pieces. Per cast. Minus material costs, which should be trivial.

Now mind you, if your DM is sane, he'll likely rule that you rapidly fill the market for that item. So...cast #2 should be something different. Needles perhaps. Fishhooks. Whatever, really. If it's non-metal, it's probably cheaper, but you get 10 times the quantity from the cast. As long as it's a relatively simple object, you can make an insane amount of it.


For material prices, Im not sure what they are, but the ceiling price is a scroll of true creation.

[Ire]

I think when you enter into epic levels and achieve a godhood, your worries are more of "how do I get more followers", "how do I steal more souls", and "which god's portfolio should try to take" instead of "how many gold pieces does a shovel cost?"

At this point, materials aren't the choke in your schemes, its more of locating priceless artifacts, research, thwarting rivals via knowledge, increasing influence on a much more...universal scale than trying to buy anything gold pieces can buy.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I actually tried to decipher the wealth by level tables growth rate mathematically. I discovered that the wealth by level table actually describes a curve in its growth. You'd have to use a bit of geometry to actually find the equation. At least I think you'd need geometry.

[taltamir]

arbitrary wealth is availble pre-epic...
you go to the elemental plane of earth and take a bunch of diamonds.

first, you need to fix epic casting... or there isn't any point in being anything but an epic caster.

if you did, and you are playing a level 60 game, then it isn't so much about wealth, its about the size of the world's entire economy.
If you bring back enough diamonds / whatever; and can instantly teleport anywhere in the world without error... how many can you actually sell before saturating the economy? how much gold can you pay people with (assuming you mint your own coins), and how many magic items (and of what power) can the other beings of this world (all of them!) craft for you?

character age (and the age they were when they became epic) actually matters

[grautry]

Well, the WBL chart in the last few levels seems to advance by about 10-12%.

Going by that, the average 60th level character should have about 91-131 mln WBL.

Of course, by that level wealth won't be expressed in terms of gold.

Seriously, at 60th level, chain binding a legion of Efreeti to create you a solid planet of gold shouldn't be considered cheese. It shouldn't even raise an eyebrow. In fact, a 60th level character would probably consider it a complete waste of his time.

I don't know about you, but to me the idea that a 60th level character would be concerned about chunks of metal seems pretty laughable.

The 'wealth' of 60th level characters would probably be expressed in terms of souls of dead gods, essences of demon lords and archangels or artifacts that took a world's worth of human sacrifices to create. Take the Wish economy and turn it up to eleven fifty times and you might get a result that would somehow represent the economy that a 60th level character is concerned about.

[robotrobot2]

By level 60, you can one-shot kill any greater deity, extraplanar entity, or basically anything else. Wealth is meaningless because there is no reason to pay anyone for anything. It's not like they can stop you from doing whatever you want anyway.

[AustontheGreat1]

Ok thanks for all the feed back.

Trust me my level 60 character is not concerned with wealth as such. My question came from that I'm equipping him and I want to keep track of my spending. and even though he is a god and can just will such items into existence, I'd still like to keep track of it, for propriety.

[taltamir]

The 'wealth' of 60th level characters would probably be expressed in terms of souls of dead gods, essences of demon lords and archangels or artifacts that took a world's worth of human sacrifices to create. Take the Wish economy and turn it up to eleven fifty times and you might get a result that would somehow represent the economy that a 60th level character is concerned about.
I like it


Ok thanks for all the feed back.

Trust me my level 60 character is not concerned with wealth as such. My question came from that I'm equipping him and I want to keep track of my spending. and even though he is a god and can just will such items into existence, I'd still like to keep track of it, for propriety.

he is a god and can just will items into existance? well even better... and technically, as a god he will be willing artifacts into existence, not just items.
get with your DM, everyone level 60 char has at least 10 of every item (not artifact, item) printed in every sourcebook...
now decide how artifacts are created, do they cost XP? souls of dead gods? time?
set a "wealth" amount for artifacts, and have each level 60 player select and amount of artifacts to go along with their mundane items.

[questionmark693]

So for my own purposes, what would a simple 21st level epic character get for wbl? I'm making a bad guy, and want him to be actually CR 21 so three level 18 or so characters can take him (possibly).

Just kidding...apparently these posts all occurred a while ago, should've checked that before posting.

[Slipperychicken]

When is arbitrarily high wealth first possible without gross cheese?

Be a Wizard. Sell your spellcasting according to the Spellcasting and Services table. Make your WBL in a week or less. Wonder why you would ever go adventuring when such riches await you at home. Get back in the dungeon when the DM starts menacing you with his harcover DMG and golfball-sized Masterwork Stainless Steel d20.

[Urpriest]

Just curious, what about this game made you/the DM decide on level 60? There aren't many monsters around that level, what in particular got the level pegged to that point?

[Phelix-Mu]

Just thought I'd bring the thread necromancy thing back up, since the necromancer in question wasn't very explicit about it.

[Sith_Happens]

In the meantime, this looks like a job for Spreadsheet Man!

By which I mean, type the 1-40 numbers into Excel, make a scatter plot, then do a polynomial/exponential fit. Done.

[graymachine]

I'm as curious as Urpriest. That aside, yeah you have no useful wealth limitations anymore, simply opposing Epic forces. The major gods stat out around 60th level, I think.

[Phelix-Mu]

When you can ostensibly raise a six mythals per day (or have your epic cohort do it for you), it's very silly to contemplate the mortal pursuit of "wealth." Power is what wealth is used for, and you've got enough power at ECL 60 to do an arbitrarily large number of arbitrarily dangerous things without breaking a sweat.

Anyway, did I mention the thread necromancy? It was late when I noticed that the OP is from 2010 or something. Is there some way this isn't a case of necromancy? (I'm not familiar with the finer points of that forum rule.)

[Renen]

What do you even DO at level 60? Its like playing a god... you can do w/e u want with 0 challenge. Whats the fun?

[DreganHiregard]

All the above posts have very good points, really you can have whatever you want. However the good fellows at dicefreaks have pc wealth by level up to 50 for pc's and 100 for npcs, so this might be helpful

http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewtopic.php?p=6488

[Deepbluediver]

Eventually you're going to have more wealth than one world even has. I would expect that it would cap out at a certain amount even with interplanar travel factored in as well. What that amount is, I'm not sure, it would depend partly on cosmology.

So what we need to do is invent a new unit of currency!

Calculate how much wealth the average material plane/planet posses, and that's 1 unit. We'll call it...the nubok!

So how many nuboks would a level 60 character possess?

[Chronos]

A while back, I actually did the regression for the given WBL table. The best fit is W(n) = 3331.63*exp(0.271568*n), or about 39.7 billion gold if we extrapolate out to level 60.

[NeoPhoenix0]

actually i just crunched some numbers. before epic WBL does not have a very good trend (not that epic has much better) crunching just 21-40 WBL i get the closest functions to be wealth = 5.1531 x (level) ^ 4.0087 and about wealth = 29624 x (level) ^ 2 - 1000000 x (level) + 10000000.

i think a good decent quick and dirty way would be wealth = 5.2 x (level) ^ 4. this would give a lv 60 character about 67 million gp. what do you think.

edit: whoa got blinded by the math and forgot to test it at levels 21-40. there isn't really any good quick and dirty method.

edit 2: misread one of my formulas

[Slipperychicken]

By which I mean, type the 1-40 numbers into Excel, make a scatter plot, then do a polynomial/exponential fit. Done.

DON'T DO IT, IT'S SO INCONVENIENT! :smalleek:

Just type "1" into a cell (let's say the cell ID is C14 for now), type "=C14+1" (without the quotation marks) into the next cell, and just drag it across the screen until you get to 40. I know this works because I took two classes in Excel.

[Sith_Happens]

DON'T DO IT, IT'S SO INCONVENIENT! :smalleek:

Just type "1" into a cell (let's say the cell ID is C14 for now), type "=C14+1" (without the quotation marks) into the next cell, and just drag it across the screen until you get to 40. I know this works because I took two classes in Excel.

Wow, I never imagined such laziness was possible. You deserve a cookie.

[NeoPhoenix0]

i can beat that click cell type "1" hit enter type "2" select both cells drag

[137beth]

Okay, here is what I use in my epic games:

From the ELH, we get the expected treasure-per-encounter for levels up to CR 40. Looking at this chart, we see a nearly perfect exponential regression (note: the base for this progression is almost exactly 1.1, while at nonepic levels it is higher, so this progression does not extend down to nonepic levels.)

Now, what fraction of the treasure can we expect the players to save, after deducting the cost of expendables? At nonepic levels, this value varies with level, but for a large portion of the nonepic progression it appears to be assumed that the PCs use 10% of their loot on expendables. So I took the curve of best fit for treasure-per-encounter, divided by 4 for the party members, multiplied by 40/3 encounters per level, times 9/10, to give the amount gained each level. Summing from level 21 to level n, and adding the 20th level WBL, gives the following formula for WBL at level x:

1.14`*^6 -
8854.498711430551` 2.`^(-18.` - 1.` x)
5.`^(-20.` -
1.` x) (7.400249944258161`*^21 10.`^x - 1.`*^21 11.`^x)

At level 60, this is 106360271. Since this is just a guideline, you should probably round to the nearest million or something, for 106000000.

A few things to note:

The cost of magic items is quadratic, while available gold is exponential, and your class features are linear (at best). Thus, magic items will quickly outstrip everything else in power except epic spells. Aside from epic spells, this means game balance is better than at nonepic levels--the level 60 wizard may have a few nice spells, but most of its power is coming from magic items, so anyone with UMD is on a similar footing. Even the commoner can get a lot of power out of use-activated magic items.

For epic spells, it is easy to get magic items which pump up your spellcraft modifier to extremely high levels. However, you also need xp to develop epic spells, and xp is a much more limited resource (you also need time, but this is nearly meaningless when you can create a demiplane with whatever time-flow you want.) The best way to handle this is with mitigating factors--have the spell deal backlash damage, and instead of buying a spellcraft-boosting item, get a con-boosting one (actually, this eventually becomes more gold-efficient too, since the hp boost from con increases with level, but it takes a really, really long time before this kicks in.)

Remember, if your player comes to you with an absurdly overpowered epic spell for its DC, you are within your right to up the cost. The system is very breakable (leadership cheese for unlimited followers, each contributing a spell slot for an arbitrarily large mitigating factor, for instance). On the other hand, if your player wants a spell that does X, but can't figure it out within the system, use ad hoc DCs. Epic spells can do anything , as long as you raise the DC enough:smallsmile:

As a rule of thumb, halving the cost of a magic item means you get it roughly 7 levels earlier. Cutting it to 10% of its original cost means you get it 24 levels earlier.

You DON'T want a Ring Of Unlimited Wishes. You want a Ring Which Gives A Few Wishes Every Day. You don't need 100 wishes a day, and limited per day halves the cost. Use the saved gold to raise the caster level (caster level is important--it affects DCs, and more importantly it affects dispelling).

Finally, beware differences in optimization. The big optimization point is how people spend their WBL. If you plan on giving them magic items in treasure drops, make sure that the power level disparity doesn't get to big. And always keep in mind their capabilities when designing challenges. One lucky hit from a CR appropriate threat, or one oversight by a player, means a dead PC, possibly the whole party (although a total party kill is not permanent, with astral projections/clones/epic contingencies to counter TPKs. Still, be careful.)