PDA

View Full Version : The Edition Wars will just keep comin'!



YvizztX23
2010-01-02, 01:15 AM
Having posted a "4e is not bad" thread in which I displayed myself as a whiny, obnoxious troll, I have now decided that a discussion on edition wars in general is in order, and not just about D&D.

Gamers have become a widespread group, and when it comes to widespread groups, there's always going to be internal argument. Religious groups, political parties, large companies, whatever- there's enough people of different tastes that there's going to be disagreement.

Every new edition of D&D has been bashed for some reason or another. 2nd Edition was seen as something that didn't require a whole new set of books and products to improve 1st Edition, 3rd Edition was seen as an overly-complicated system, 3.5 was bashed for being an attempt by WotC to squeeze more money out of gamers, and now, 4e...

The New World of Darkness has also attracted some people who just think it mucks up the old system too much, despite the fact that WoD is about 90% role-playing and 10% mechanics. Just look at the reviews on amazon.

Any new version of a game, especially a very popular game, will attract controversy among the gaming society. The difference is is that some will discuss in an even headed manner, while others will just bombard it with a litany of curses and swearing. Things like this (http://www.cracked.com/blog/d-d-4th-edition-scourge-of-the-insufferable-prick) are not helping matters.

I'm sure that anywhere else, my attempts to be philosophical about the psychology behind the edition wars would be met with ruthless flaming. Such is the beauty of Giant in the Playground's more Lawful forum rules.

So, why do the edition wars happen, and how do we stop them?

Touchy
2010-01-02, 01:30 AM
It's probably because the game always feels very different between editions?
Assuming ofcourse.

Demons_eye
2010-01-02, 01:44 AM
Another reason is money. You send $200 on 3.5 books and bam 4E comes out and you need to spend another $200 on them.

jmbrown
2010-01-02, 01:44 AM
So, why do the edition wars happen, and how do we stop them?

You can't and you shouldn't worry about it. People have (surprise, surprise) different opinions on how things should handle. People naturally stick by with what they feel comfortable with and lash out at what they hate. Disagreements are inevitable and you shouldn't lose sleep over it.

Zincorium
2010-01-02, 01:48 AM
My explanation is this:

Some people love to try new things. I'm in this category. Anytime someone introduces a new system or setting, not only am I along for the ride but it gets the wheels in my head turning on yet more things to do. I don't mind spending several days getting to know how a game plays or the background information- that, in and of itself, is a fun activity.

Others know and are familiar with a limited number of games (occasionally just one), and demand that they be given good, solid reasons to switch. Any significant problems are evidence that a change would be for the worse, rather than the better. They don't have the time or the inclination to learn completely different systems, especially things that change what made sense to them.


There isn't going to be agreement between the two schools of thought. The key thing to realize is that nobody is wrong. Except for the people who liked FATAL- they're very, very wrong.

Origomar
2010-01-02, 01:48 AM
Having posted a "4e is not bad" thread in which I displayed myself as a whiny, obnoxious troll, I have now decided that a discussion on edition wars in general is in order, and not just about D&D.

Gamers have become a widespread group, and when it comes to widespread groups, there's always going to be internal argument. Religious groups, political parties, large companies, whatever- there's enough people of different tastes that there's going to be disagreement.

Every new edition of D&D has been bashed for some reason or another. 2nd Edition was seen as something that didn't require a whole new set of books and products to improve 1st Edition, 3rd Edition was seen as an overly-complicated system, 3.5 was bashed for being an attempt by WotC to squeeze more money out of gamers, and now, 4e...

The New World of Darkness has also attracted some people who just think it mucks up the old system too much, despite the fact that WoD is about 90% role-playing and 10% mechanics. Just look at the reviews on amazon.

Any new version of a game, especially a very popular game, will attract controversy among the gaming society. The difference is is that some will discuss in an even headed manner, while others will just bombard it with a litany of curses and swearing. Things like this (http://www.cracked.com/blog/d-d-4th-edition-scourge-of-the-insufferable-prick) are not helping matters.

I'm sure that anywhere else, my attempts to be philosophical about the psychology behind the edition wars would be met with ruthless flaming. Such is the beauty of Giant in the Playground's more Lawful forum rules.

So, why do the edition wars happen, and how do we stop them?


lol ive never seen that link before

Players must now roll checks for the following actions: going to the restroom, eating food, conversing with one another, rolling checks.

Eldrys
2010-01-02, 01:49 AM
they will never stop. Even if the 4e versus 3/3.5e debacle is somehow settled, it will start up just as strong as ever when WotC decides it's time for another edition.

Swordgleam
2010-01-02, 01:51 AM
Two reasons.

1) People hate and fear change. Just check out any time a major website changes its design - the users all revolt for a month or two. Despite the change having a minimal impact on their lives.

2) For some reason, people feel threatened when other people game differently, as if it invalidates their own playstyle. That's why arguments get so heated about, for example, whether certain house rules improve the game or ruin it. It obviously is fun for the people using it, so why does everyone else care? Same reason they care what edition other people play.

YvizztX23
2010-01-02, 01:56 AM
they will never stop. Even if the 4e versus 3/3.5e debacle is somehow settled, it will start up just as strong as ever when WotC decides it's time for another edition.

I agree. The minute anything containing the phrase "5th Edition" pops up in WotC, the internet shall be ablaze with people speculating about the new edition.

oxybe
2010-01-02, 02:10 AM
dude did you even read the "Cracked" article? it's satire directed at the edition change. at best it's a hilarious troll trap that puts on display the angry fatbeards in their basements who took it seriously so we may lol at them as they scream at their monitors while their aging mother prepares their 5th course of cheetos and mountain dew.

and yes, i am joking and not serious. somewhat. i mean, going all nerd-rage on a cracked article? seriously? that says to me you're more lashing out and trolling then anything else.

YvizztX23
2010-01-02, 02:17 AM
dude did you even read the "Cracked" article? it's satire directed at the edition change. at best it's a hilarious troll trap that puts on display the angry fatbeards in their basements who took it seriously so we may lol at them as they scream at their monitors while their aging mother prepares their 5th course of cheetos and mountain dew.

and yes, i am joking and not serious. somewhat. i mean, going all nerd-rage on a cracked article? seriously? that says to me you're more lashing out and trolling then anything else.

Yeah, I figured out that I was probably taking the article way too seriously about ten seconds after posting this. I tend to do that sometimes, then be a hypocrite when I make fun of other people taking things to seriously.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-02, 02:38 AM
It's probably because the game always feels very different between editions?
Assuming ofcourse.

If it's a significant change, then yes, some people will dislike the new changes.

If it's not a significant change, then quite a few people will dislike spending hundreds of bucks for little new content.

Yeah...the only way I see people mostly being happy with an edition upgade is if it's almost purely a "patch and expand" sort of change. Think 3.0 to 3.5, though some people even considered that too little change for the money.

Still, it's one of the more accepted changes. Being mostly backward compatible helps for the people who don't want to spend more money.

Swordguy
2010-01-02, 02:43 AM
Two reasons.

1) People hate and fear change. Just check out any time a major website changes its design - the users all revolt for a month or two. Despite the change having a minimal impact on their lives.

2) For some reason, people feel threatened when other people game differently, as if it invalidates their own playstyle. That's why arguments get so heated about, for example, whether certain house rules improve the game or ruin it. It obviously is fun for the people using it, so why does everyone else care? Same reason they care what edition other people play.

When you combine this with the Internet Troll Equation (user+audience+anonymity = JACKASS) , you can see precisely why edition wars happen. People don't tend to fight like they do on the internet in real life - even the notoriously and correctly-labeled socially-inept class of people, "gamers".

I am positive that fully 10% of the posts on this forum (not the whole site) and upwards of 50% on other gaming sites (re: /tg/) are deliberate trolling attempts couched in reasonable language, just to piss other people off. Which comforts me, actually, since it means that said people aren't actually stupid in their inability to "get" the points of posts, they're just intentionally choosing to ignore said points to make the other guy mad.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-02, 02:47 AM
I dunno...I've met a lot of people...widespread stupidity would not surprise me in the least.

Longcat
2010-01-02, 02:49 AM
Well, if editions tend to be drastically different (and let's face it, the difference between 4e and 3e is pretty significant), and you favor one style over the other, then fear over discontinued support and products might be an issue.

Another issue is what I refer to as the 4chan-syndrome. Some people can't stand the fact that others are, according to them, "wrong on the internet", and will begin a crusade for what they believe is the rightful way. And while most posters will accept the fact that different people prefer different editions, they will most likely get defensive if their preference is declared "wrong".

Roland St. Jude
2010-01-02, 02:55 AM
Sheriff of Moddingham: This topic is a bit of a powder keg. Please avoid even the suggestion of flames away.

Totally Guy
2010-01-02, 06:26 AM
I love pointing out this little gem.

It's game theory.

D&D is a system which works better the more people that play it. If I want to find a gaming group which system should I use to find it? I know two systems; D&D and a small independent system called Burning Wheel. Which of those is more likely to find me the like minded individuals that I seek?

I think the answer is D&D.

But an edition change throws off the status quo. Suddenly there is a question over which system is more compatible within the community. Which system will allow you the social compatibility to make the most friends (and fewest enemies:smalltongue:)?

I believe this is the area that causes the most conflict. System features, quality and design principles all take a back seat to the social aspects.

To make progress I think that the individual has got to pick their system considering social mobility and personal preferences. This depends on many factors:smalltongue::
Wisdom: How strong are your convictions?
Charisma: How easily can you find like minded individuals?
Intelligence: Can you understand the implications within the system?:smalltongue:

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-02, 07:05 AM
1) People hate and fear change. Just check out any time a major website changes its design - the users all revolt for a month or two. Despite the change having a minimal impact on their lives.
Killed Gleemax for me.

Gamerlord
2010-01-02, 07:08 AM
We cannot stop them, nobody likes change, mostly radical change. 3.5 people come to 4e expecting a 3.5 feeling, when they get something radically different.

Combine this with the power of the internet and you get an ASPLOSEN.
Besides, even if this edition war calms down, we still have the THAC0 vs. all the other editions, OD&D vs. all the other editions, 3.0 vs 3.5, and in THE FAR FLUNG FUTURE..... 4E VS. 5E!

Soranar
2010-01-02, 07:37 AM
It's not just the money investment, the time investment is huge too.

To me the problem was simple

back in 2nd edition (yeah I'm that old) people didn't complain much about the rules because they didn't think it could be any different and they kinda made sense most of the time

Then 3rd showed up and you had to learn a whole new system. But since we weren't that old to start with we didn't mind. Besides the game looked consistent enough. Some classes were a bit stronger than we remembered (druid) while some were a lot weaker (monk) but multiclassing+ prestige classes became easy and that gave us an insane amount of freedom with our characters and we enjoyed the change.

3.5 fixed a lot of issues without completely changing the rules so it was a minor thing to my players

Now 4th comes out and we really don't see the point of learning a new system. It's hard enough to find players, nevermind have them learn the rules. And every book you admit brings a whole new set you have to learn and we're tired of it all. That and most of 3.5 is free online, it's just really hard to beat FREE.

Zincorium
2010-01-02, 08:10 AM
We cannot stop them, nobody likes change, mostly radical change. 3.5 people come to 4e expecting a 3.5 feeling, when they get something radically different.

[citation needed]

Seriously, I gave myself as an example of someone who actively desires changes, especially radical and diverse ones. I know a good number of people who are similar in that respect.

People can be wrong about objective things, but not subjective ones.

Additionally, my main fear for fourth edition was that it was going to be too much like 3.5. Which, like the 3.0 to 3.5 shift, would have required essentially paying full price for errata.

Morty
2010-01-02, 09:23 AM
The root of edition wars and Internet flamewars in general - some people just assume that someone with a differing opinion is stupid and wrong/afraid of change/acting on a misconception or fallacy/etc. because otherwise s/he's agree with them, because it's so obvious that X is true and Y isn't.

Alcopop
2010-01-02, 09:35 AM
We cannot stop them, nobody likes change, mostly radical change. 3.5 people come to 4e expecting a 3.5 feeling, when they get something radically different.

Combine this with the power of the internet and you get an ASPLOSEN.
Besides, even if this edition war calms down, we still have the THAC0 vs. all the other editions, OD&D vs. all the other editions, 3.0 vs 3.5, and in THE FAR FLUNG FUTURE..... 4E VS. 5E!


Eventually WOTC will start cycling though editions, they'll go up to like 20e then start over when all the 1st ed players are dead. The edition wars will flame forever. :P

Ostien
2010-01-02, 11:09 AM
eh, why stop debate and argument just because some people will take it to the level of trolling?

Also, there is not just one reason for genuine disagreement, you can't just boil it down to "some people don't like change" while that could be true for some cases it is just as likely that "people don't prefer a specific change." Assuming intentions of a mass group of people will generally fail to encompass any nuance, and really what is the point? People disagree and some people will exploit that to troll.

:smallsigh:

The Dark Fiddler
2010-01-02, 11:33 AM
....in THE FAR FLUNG FUTURE..... 4E VS. 5E!

3.5 e vs. 5 e? :smallamused:

bosssmiley
2010-01-02, 11:36 AM
So, why do the edition wars happen

Because someone is wrong on the internet! (http://www.xkcd.com/386/)


and how do we stop them?

Why would we want to? I mean, can you imagine the potential for trouble and harm if people with that kind of mindset devoted their NERDRAGE to the subtle and intractable complexities of the real world. Best for all that they be kept in their playpen. :smallwink:


Besides, even if this edition war calms down, we still have the THAC0 vs. all the other editions, OD&D vs. all the other editions, 3.0 vs 3.5, and in THE FAR FLUNG FUTURE..... 4E VS. 5E!

You mean: "In the far-flung future, there is only edition war." :smallamused:

Of course, B/X will emerge to squat triumphant upon a pyramid of all the other editions' skulls (up to and including the dread and loathsome "Σ edition").

Tiktakkat
2010-01-02, 12:22 PM
Two reasons.

1) People hate and fear change. Just check out any time a major website changes its design - the users all revolt for a month or two. Despite the change having a minimal impact on their lives.

2) For some reason, people feel threatened when other people game differently, as if it invalidates their own playstyle. That's why arguments get so heated about, for example, whether certain house rules improve the game or ruin it. It obviously is fun for the people using it, so why does everyone else care? Same reason they care what edition other people play.

There is one more supporting motivation:

A new edition means no more "official" toys will be produced for the current edition. Even people who rarely bought said toys become upset at the thought of losing "official" sanction for their particular hobby.
Conversely, those who switch now get to break out the "official" club in any discussions, heightening the tensions with those who do not switch.

Kylarra
2010-01-02, 12:36 PM
3.5 e vs. 5 e? :smallamused:
2e vs 5e. :smallcool:

Ostien
2010-01-02, 01:06 PM
2e vs 5e. :smallcool:


Chainmail vs 5e
:smalltongue:

Kylarra
2010-01-02, 01:10 PM
Chainmail vs 5e
:smalltongue:
Nah, by the time 5e comes out, all the grognards that played Chainmail and would be inclined to do that will have raged themselves into a heart attack.



:smalltongue:

Origomar
2010-01-02, 01:17 PM
When you combine this with the Internet Troll Equation (user+audience+anonymity = JACKASS) , you can see precisely why edition wars happen. People don't tend to fight like they do on the internet in real life - even the notoriously and correctly-labeled socially-inept class of people, "gamers".

I am positive that fully 10% of the posts on this forum (not the whole site) and upwards of 50% on other gaming sites (re: /tg/) are deliberate trolling attempts couched in reasonable language, just to piss other people off. Which comforts me, actually, since it means that said people aren't actually stupid in their inability to "get" the points of posts, they're just intentionally choosing to ignore said points to make the other guy mad.

to be completely honest id say it was more than 50% on other sites and less than 10% on this site. Ive been on this forum for almost a year and have only seen 1 or two posts that people are being disrespectful on purpose and just to troll.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-01-02, 01:30 PM
You mean: "In the far-flung future, there is only edition war." :smallamused:

In AD 2101, Edition War was beginning.

Admin: What happen?

Member: Somebody set up us the troll.

Mod: We get thread.

Admin: What!

Mod: Troll thread open.

Admin: It's you!!

TROLLS: How are you mentlegen!! All your thread are belong to us. You are on the way to flame war.

Admin: What you say!!

TROLLS: You have no chance to moderate make your time. HA HA HA HA....

That was too fun. :smallbiggrin:

The Glyphstone
2010-01-02, 01:41 PM
You win not just an internet cookie, but a bag of internet cookies.
http://www.rogueengineering.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/cookies_large.jpg

Tyndmyr
2010-01-02, 01:46 PM
I love pointing out this little gem.

It's game theory.

D&D is a system which works better the more people that play it. If I want to find a gaming group which system should I use to find it? I know two systems; D&D and a small independent system called Burning Wheel. Which of those is more likely to find me the like minded individuals that I seek?

I think the answer is D&D.

But an edition change throws off the status quo. Suddenly there is a question over which system is more compatible within the community. Which system will allow you the social compatibility to make the most friends (and fewest enemies:smalltongue:)?

I believe this is the area that causes the most conflict. System features, quality and design principles all take a back seat to the social aspects.


This is true. My absolute favorite system is 7th Sea. Ive found a local group for it exactly...once.

D&D 3.5 is probably my second favorite, and while I know several more obscure systems...3.5 is generally easy to find people to play with. Now, with the release of 4th Ed, some local stores no longer allow 3.5 games to be played in store, in the interests of pushing the new edition.

I find that annoying. I don't personally enjoy 4th ed, but Im fine with people who do. I just don't want to see my favorite version displaced by it.

dragonfan6490
2010-01-02, 01:49 PM
We cannot stop them, nobody likes change, mostly radical change. 3.5 people come to 4e expecting a 3.5 feeling, when they get something radically different.

Combine this with the power of the internet and you get an ASPLOSEN.
Besides, even if this edition war calms down, we still have the THAC0 vs. all the other editions, OD&D vs. all the other editions, 3.0 vs 3.5, and in THE FAR FLUNG FUTURE..... 4E VS. 5E!

3e v 3.5e v 4e v 4.5e v 5e v Ghosts of Gygax and Arneson combined to form: SUPER DND!

RandomNPC
2010-01-02, 01:51 PM
for me the edition war was because 3rd. came out, i spent about $250 on it, and 3.5 came out. I've got over a grand in books (a good number of gifts luckily) and they say they're not going to make anymore and if i want new content i need to buy the next edition source books?

I've said it before, i'll say it again. I'll update editions when i can pick up some used 5th edition books at a decent price.

Also, Dark fiddler, you get points for the refrence.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-02, 01:55 PM
for me the edition war was because 3rd. came out, i spent about $250 on it, and 3.5 came out. I've got over a grand in books (a good number of gifts luckily) and they say they're not going to make anymore and if i want new content i need to buy the next edition source books?

I've never counted up my book value. That said, I have about a shelf and a half of 3.x. Has to be a decent amount there.

Still, some things I never bothered with. I still have a 3.0 Phb, for example. It's not perfect, but Ive memorized the common changes, and the SRD is there to help out, so it's not absolutely necessary to upgrade books.

The same is not true of larger shifts...I can't imagine trying to use a 3.5 Phb in 4th ed.

jmbrown
2010-01-02, 02:11 PM
D&D is the only RPG system off the top of my head that's made radical changes per edition. Most of the long running systems in my collection (HERO, GURPS, Traveler, Shadowrun, Champions, Tunnels and Trolls, most of the stuff by Palladium, BattleTech, etc.) doesn't make major changes on how the game is run. They'll axe unnecessary material, nerf overpowered stuff, and maybe modify the charts around but the way the game works is about 75% the same. Conversions are easy and some of the older systems even came with a free conversion guide. Even the systems that underwent moderate changes (like nWoD) still allowed old timers to catch on fairly quickly without alienating new players.

Now converting D&D between editions is challenging. 1E and 2E were mostly compatible but the Basic line went off in its own direction in the early 80s. You could convert characters to 3E but the skill sets, incremental modifiers/DCs, and tactical combat meant a lot of builds in AD&D were so lame you might as well create a new character. 4E is an entirely new ball park.

I can't say for certain whether this is a good thing or bad thing. Wizards is a company and they want money. They can't make money unless they have new material to sell. There's only so many "Complete" and "Book of *blank*" you can produce before you've covered everything. GURPS 4E has hit this wall where there aren't many interesting settings being released (compared to earlier editions which had cool stuff like AutoDuel and Discworld) and all we're getting are upgrades to old material like GURPS Space and GURPS Modern. *Yawn*

In short, I can understand the frustration people have with dropping a new system that's vastly different from the old ones. AD&D had about 12 years of shelf life, 2E had 11 or so, but then we get to Wizards who shelf 3.0 in 3 years and 3.5 after 5? What's going on guys? 3.5 was still fresh when they cut the cord. At least treat your products like good wine and let it age before popping the cork.

Kylarra
2010-01-02, 02:13 PM
The same is not true of larger shifts...I can't imagine trying to use a 3.5 Phb in 4th ed.Well same for 2e phb -> 3.X :p

Grommen
2010-01-02, 02:57 PM
When you combine this with the Internet Troll Equation (user+audience+anonymity = JACKASS) , you can see precisely why edition wars happen. People don't tend to fight like they do on the internet in real life - even the notoriously and correctly-labeled socially-inept class of people, "gamers".

I am positive that fully 10% of the posts on this forum (not the whole site) and upwards of 50% on other gaming sites (re: /tg/) are deliberate trolling attempts couched in reasonable language, just to piss other people off. Which comforts me, actually, since it means that said people aren't actually stupid in their inability to "get" the points of posts, they're just intentionally choosing to ignore said points to make the other guy mad.

I don't know man. I remember some of the biggest arguments I've ever witnessed over 1st and 2nd ed with the dice caps on spells, and not calling them Demons and Devils and all that good crap. We didn't have the net back then pilgrim. Was just that the "Snerts" back then had to go out and troll in public. They didn't last as long, we ran them off with pitchforks and torches.

At first I took a look at 3ed and went "What the %%%#^@!!" Nope not even giving it a try and resisting for years. Then around the time 3.5 was introduced I gave it a try and really liked it. Then I bought tons of books, invested huge sums of loot, time, and energy into 3.5/3.0. I dug the crap out of the open source stuff (bought every goodman game I can get my paws on), converted my campaigns and old characters. Only to have Hasbro, in a few years time, say "OK 3.5 is now DEAD, YOU WILL play this new version, and we didn't even use half the old classes. You'll like it! No you can't go back cause we are gonna yank everyone's OGL and force them to pick between one or the other. moooohahahahhahaa!"

I mean I have literally have 10 feet worth of adventures and books for 3.5 that I have not even dug into yet. I have no need to change. And considering that it looks like 4ed is not even close to compatible.

Then when I hear things like "Healing Surge", and "Roll to hit with your Fireball" :smallfurious:

4th ed Might be the best thing ever but, when you force feed it down my gullet and wreck years of creative work, and tell me I'm gonna like it.

...I'm gonna resist.

On the other hand I really like and have embraced the Pathfinder Rules. It at least looks, walks, and talks like 3.5, but has new appeal and ideas. It's in print, looks great, etc. I mean techinaly it's a new edition but it's not getting nearly the hate that 4th generated around my parts.

Same problem exists with 4th ed Shadowrun. They killed the #%#@& Matrix! You can't do that! It's like Lucas going back and having Greedo shoot first! O wait... damm.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-02, 03:01 PM
Pathfinder isn't perfect by any means, but at least it's mostly compatible with 3.5. Much more so than 4e, at any rate. Plus, it's a live, supported product.

If it gets more people playing 3.5ish styled games, and helps justify why stores should let people play those games there, it's a good thing for that alone.

oxybe
2010-01-02, 03:22 PM
actually going by wikipedia tmeline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_&_Dragons#Time_line)
White Box : 1974-1977 (3)
1st ed : 1977 - 1989 (12)
2nd ed : 1989 -1996 (7)
2nd ed revised : 1996 - 2000 (4)
3rd ed : 2000 - 2003 (3)
3.5 : 2003-2008 (5)
4th ed : 2008 - current

the only edition that really lasted a long time was 1st ed if we're going by "major rules updates"

otherwise it's :
white box - 3
1st ed - 12
2nd ed - 11
3rd ed - 8
4th ed - current

now compare to shadowrun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun)
1989 (1st edition) - 3 years
1992 (2nd edition) - 5 years
1998 (3rd edition) - 7 years
2005 (4th edition) - current

while i don't have the timeline for GURPS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GURPS), i know it's first ed was in 1986 and it's 4th ed ws in 2004... 18 years.

so yeah edition changes. it's not just D&D.

Ostien
2010-01-02, 03:33 PM
D&D 3.5 is probably my second favorite, and while I know several more obscure systems...3.5 is generally easy to find people to play with. Now, with the release of 4th Ed, some local stores no longer allow 3.5 games to be played in store, in the interests of pushing the new edition.

I find that annoying. I don't personally enjoy 4th ed, but Im fine with people who do. I just don't want to see my favorite version displaced by it.

I've only played one session of a game that was in a gaming store, it was a WOTC store a while back. Odd to find out that some gaming stores care and monitor what version of a system someone is playing. Letting people play always seem more about getting people in the store to make it look lively and buy things. Sure if a store no longer sells 3.5 stuff then they know they won't make any money off of 4e book sales from those groups, but what about minis (a mini is a mini), dice and other accessories like battle mats? Also c'mon like the groups are going to be full of nerds who don't have any other nerdy interest other then D&D :smalltongue:

Roland St. Jude
2010-01-02, 03:53 PM
actually going by wikipedia tmeline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_&_Dragons#Time_line)
White Box : 1974-1977 (3)
1st ed : 1977 - 1989 (12)
2nd ed : 1989 -1996 (7)
2nd ed revised : 1996 - 2000 (4)
3rd ed : 2000 - 2003 (3)
3.5 : 2003-2008 (5)
4th ed : 2008 - current

the only edition that really lasted a long time was 1st ed if we're going by "major rules updates"

otherwise it's :
white box - 3
1st ed - 12
2nd ed - 11
3rd ed - 8
4th ed - current

now compare to shadowrun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun)
1989 (1st edition) - 3 years
1992 (2nd edition) - 5 years
1998 (3rd edition) - 7 years
2005 (4th edition) - current

while i don't have the timeline for GURPS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GURPS), i know it's first ed was in 1986 and it's 4th ed ws in 2004... 18 years.

so yeah edition changes. it's not just D&D.

As frequently happens, Wikipedia is a bit misleading. What you've called "White Box" was itself revised into what most people call BECMI was supported and widely played well into the 1e era under the name "Basic D&D" or "OD&D."

Also, breaking the 2e era in half is misleading because while all the Players Option stuff started in '96, it (like many of the optional rules in the 2e core books) was viewed as optional, which is very different from the 3.0/3.5 revision. Kit books started in 1e long before and people were very accepting of the fact that there were options in their game that a given game might take or leave. No one I knew thought of 2e and 2e revised as a different games.

Another thing your summary doesn't reflect, but which might be relevant to this discussion is that the two-pronged strategy of having Basic D&D and Advanced D&D running separately really reduced the edition rancor in D&D prior to 3.0. For example, BECMI ran concurrently with 1e for a long time, and the start of 2e actually overlapped with the publication of some of the final BECMI stuff (Immortals, Cyclopedia, and modules, I think). There wasn't as much of an attitude of "we're replacing your current game with "New Coke D&D."

The manner of putting out 3e, and then especially 3.5, was quite different, I think, and greatly increased the normal edition tension. Maybe it's just hindsight, but in real life and what I recall of the usenet/bbs/forum conversations of the time, pre-3.0 D&D systems and their fans co-existed pretty congenially. Some places like Dragonsfoot and others sort of drew the line at 3.0, but why is a whole other topic.

I'm not sure how that factors into the argument here, but it seemed like an error, or at least a glaring oversimplification, by Wikipedia.

jmbrown
2010-01-02, 03:57 PM
actually going by wikipedia tmeline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_&_Dragons#Time_line)
White Box : 1974-1977 (3)
1st ed : 1977 - 1989 (12)
2nd ed : 1989 -1996 (7)
2nd ed revised : 1996 - 2000 (4)
3rd ed : 2000 - 2003 (3)
3.5 : 2003-2008 (5)
4th ed : 2008 - current

the only edition that really lasted a long time was 1st ed if we're going by "major rules updates"

otherwise it's :
white box - 3
1st ed - 12
2nd ed - 11
3rd ed - 8
4th ed - current

now compare to shadowrun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun)
1989 (1st edition) - 3 years
1992 (2nd edition) - 5 years
1998 (3rd edition) - 7 years
2005 (4th edition) - current

while i don't have the timeline for GURPS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GURPS), i know it's first ed was in 1986 and it's 4th ed ws in 2004... 18 years.

so yeah edition changes. it's not just D&D.

2nd edition revised was a marketing ploy by TSR. All they did was repackage the core books with larger font, more pictures, and all the errata... and yet, somehow they still managed to screw up a lot of charts and rules requiring almost an equal amount of errata that the 1989 edition got. It's not the same as 3.0 -> 3.5 which included several dozen pages worth of changes.

As for the other games the conversions were legitimately easier to make and the companies actually still supported the older editions. If you played GURPS 4E's game screen came with an entire guide and Shadowrun 4th pretty much lists every major mechanics change in the first chapter.

I remember reading one of the Dragon magazines that detailed conversion for 2E to 3E and I laughed at how terrible a fully grown red wyrm was by comparison.

ken-do-nim
2010-01-02, 07:26 PM
The Edition War problem for me is very simple: it breaks up gaming groups. I have (had) so many friends who are only interested in playing any one version. You've got both sides of the spectrum here; intense gamers who think this or that version is the best and won't play a lesser system, and casual gamers who can't be bothered to learn another edition. In either case, if you're not playing the edition they do, you don't get to play with them and friendships tend to decline.

Ozreth
2010-01-02, 07:29 PM
Another reason is money. You send $200 on 3.5 books and bam 4E comes out and you need to spend another $200 on them.

But its not like people don't know that a new edition is going to come when they purchase those books. Also, it takes a bout 5 years in between, so you are getting a LOT of play time out of that $200 worth of books (that you most likely bought over time, not all at once). Also, the resale value of those book has sky rocketed since they are no longer in print and there are still a lot of people wanting to play older editions.

bosssmiley
2010-01-03, 09:32 AM
As frequently happens, Wikipedia is a bit misleading. What you've called "White Box" was itself revised into what most people call BECMI was supported and widely played well into the 1e era under the name "Basic D&D" or "OD&D."

Yeah, kinda... (http://jamesmishler.blogspot.com/2008/12/chartistry-redux-od.html)


Wikipedia: the encyclopedia where every article should be prefaced with the words "I reckon..."
-- Frankie Boyle, Mock the Week

megabyter5
2010-01-03, 06:31 PM
*shudders*

I've fought in the front lines of the edition wars... It's not something you do by choice. You do it because your edition needs you. At least that's what they tell you. The flames all around you, it's too much to handle. By now, the way I see it is 4e players have every right to say a lot of 3.5 players are to stubborn to try 4e... Just how any 3.5 player who's tried 4e, like I have, can say it sucks. That's their opinion. But no one has the right to start a war over it. I'm not going back to the battlefield again... I can't.

ken-do-nim
2010-01-03, 06:40 PM
I wonder how many people actually enjoy multiple editions of the game? Especially with OD&D, AD&D, 3rd, and 4th all so different from each other, can't it be possible to appreciate each for their strengths?

Tiktakkat
2010-01-03, 07:03 PM
*shudders*

I've fought in the front lines of the edition wars... It's not something you do by choice. You do it because your edition needs you. At least that's what they tell you. The flames all around you, it's too much to handle.
. . .
I'm not going back to the battlefield again... I can't.

"I wanted a new edition.
And for my sins, I got one.
And when it was over, I would never want another."

"Optimize his PC."
"Optimize, with extreme munchkiness."

"The horror. The . . . horror . . ."

- Apocedition Now, Director's Revised, Expanded, Preferred, Updated Cut, vPi

Tyndmyr
2010-01-03, 11:46 PM
I wonder how many people actually enjoy multiple editions of the game? Especially with OD&D, AD&D, 3rd, and 4th all so different from each other, can't it be possible to appreciate each for their strengths?

It's possible. Everyone has their favorites, though. I wouldn't mind playing some oldschool AD&D, just because, but 3.5 is my preferred version of D&D. Very different feel to campaigns in general.

Kylarra
2010-01-03, 11:51 PM
I wonder how many people actually enjoy multiple editions of the game? Especially with OD&D, AD&D, 3rd, and 4th all so different from each other, can't it be possible to appreciate each for their strengths?I do. Never having played OD&D, I can't really comment on it, but I've been through the latter 3 and enjoy them all for different reasons.

Swordgleam
2010-01-04, 12:39 AM
I wonder how many people actually enjoy multiple editions of the game? Especially with OD&D, AD&D, 3rd, and 4th all so different from each other, can't it be possible to appreciate each for their strengths?

I enjoyed 1st ed, but that was my introduction to gaming - I don't know if I'd still like it if I tried it again, with all the options I know about now.

I love Iron Heroes, which is a variant of 3.5, so I'm going to count that. And I love 4e.

So, yes.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-04, 12:43 AM
I probably wouldn't play 2e again. It's not bad, I just don't see any particular reason to pick it over second end. I do enjoy pathfinder, 3.5, 3.0, and dabble in older version from time to time.

I suspect this sort of attitude is common, and thus, it's irritating when people claim that you dislike version X because of unrelated reason y, implying you never give versions other than your favorite a chance. Probably a major cause of edition wars.

Dimers
2010-01-04, 12:52 AM
I wonder how many people actually enjoy multiple editions of the game? Especially with OD&D, AD&D, 3rd, and 4th all so different from each other, can't it be possible to appreciate each for their strengths?

I've done 2e with and without Player's Option, 3e and 3.5, and just a hint of 4e. Personally, I can't get into 2e -- to me, the mechanics seem so arbitrary. I have a lot of respect for 3.x and find it very easy to homebrew to taste. 4th appeals to me more than either of the others for tactics (an aspect of play I adore), especially team play, though it's more limited in flexibility of design. There's some good and some bad in everything.

I also simultaneously like GURPS, Shadowrun 4e, and many aspects of oWoD. I think the best-designed game I've seen was Deadlands ... it's a pity I had no interest in the setting.

Zincorium
2010-01-04, 03:56 AM
I currently have everything I need to play 3.5 and 4th edition- and I'm open to either.

My older brother has everything for 2nd edition- and if he ever starts another game up, I'd love to play.

I'm also looking to play Alternity, Spirit of the Century, Dark Heresy, CthuluTech, and any system someone is willing to run.


I HATE the edition wars because I don't want to give up any of them, and the edition war always leads to people on both sides telling me that a game I play sucks.

Mike_G
2010-01-04, 10:37 AM
Nah, by the time 5e comes out, all the grognards that played Chainmail and would be inclined to do that will have raged themselves into a heart attack.



:smalltongue:


YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!!


My first version of this post read like Shatner's SNL sketch where he berates the Trekkies to get a life and demands "Have any of you you ever kissed a girl?" so I edited it.

Actually, having played everything from Chainmail to 4e, I have my preferences and opinions, but I have lost any and all patience for Edition Wars.

I'll debate the merits of 3e vs 1e, and happy to do it (racial level limits? No Elven Rangers, WTF?) but the mad, fanatic zeal with which some gamers conduct their Edition Jihads is just too much.

There will always be a new edition, and not just because the evil bean counters at WOTC want to pry your hard earned cash away from you. Game designers are tinkerers. And the flaws and details of a system show themselves over time, through testing. D&D, and RPG's in general, have evolved bit by bit from many sources, as each designer "fixes" what he perceives to be the problem with the current edition.

The old miniature wargames, from which D&D derived, had simple rules for musketry, movement, morale checks, etc. They didn't need Move Silently or Diplomacy rolls, so those got grafted on in nigh incompatible fashion. The OD&D/AD&D 1e 2e books are a hodgepodge of interconnected systems. Nobody plays RAW OD&D since it hardly exists.

Those of us who played made tweaks and houserules. Those of us with the time, money and access published those, and begat the future editions, the alternate editions, the offshoots like Pathfinder, and the rival games like GURPS, RuneQuest, etc.

Now, in addition to being tinkerers by nature, we tend to be an opinionated lot. There is always divergent opinions as to what, exactly, needs fixing in any given edition. I'm sure Gygax was vilified by grognards who couldn't figure out why the hell Henry V needed saving throws or a wizard for a companion. A regiment of longbowmen with a ruler to measure range and a results chart for casualties works just fine!

My point, while guaranteed to be either ignored or angrily refuted, is that new editions are a natural and inevitable result of the kind of people we have ion this hobby, and that disagreement will run rampant since no two groups are the same.

I also think new editions are a good thing.

I cut my teeth on 1e AD&D. Everything else I've played, I have stolen the good ideas and ignored the bad. We now play a heavily houseruled 3.5, but I've stolen from everything up to and including 4e to make my game better.

Evolution. It's good for all of us.

hamlet
2010-01-04, 11:56 AM
I wonder how many people actually enjoy multiple editions of the game? Especially with OD&D, AD&D, 3rd, and 4th all so different from each other, can't it be possible to appreciate each for their strengths?

I probably would if I could: find a compatible group that is.

I'll go out on a limb and say that I unambiguously dislike 4th mostly as a matter of preference. It just doesn't do it for me. That, and the 4 hour long combat vs. four kobolds that had me clawing my eyes out. I dont' like "cinematic play," so I suppose that's just a major strike against me.

I feel that I could like 3.5 (or whatever it's calling itself these days), but every time I've tried it, I've found myself going absolutely insane due to a whole variety of reasons that revolve around fatally different play styles. No, I don't want to play a half-illithid half-ogre vampiric paladin/cleric/monk. Why do you ask? Whatever happened to a viable "Fred the Human Fighter" anyway?

In terms of AD&D and BECMI/WhiteBox(and I'm lumping them together here), it again boils down to finding a group that enjoyes a vaguely similar type of game as I do, but the tolerance levels are easier here, mostly because we share a closer starting ground.

In a way, it all, for all games and all editions, boils down to who's sitting at the table and what they're doing. I have been extremely lucky in the last few years, honestly, because I've found a group that thinks very closely to what I think and we very much enjoy gaming together. There are disagreements from time to time, but rarely anything that carries long term negative baggage.

As for edition wars . . . well . . . I've made promises to stay out of them. I'd rather not jump in and risk becoming a casualty of the mods weapons of mass destruction here.

Eldariel
2010-01-04, 01:45 PM
I wonder how many people actually enjoy multiple editions of the game? Especially with OD&D, AD&D, 3rd, and 4th all so different from each other, can't it be possible to appreciate each for their strengths?

I love both, AD&D 2e and 3e D&D. I like some things about Basic for what little I've played of it, but it's too...unlikely for players to actually, y'know, live no matter how brilliant they are.

I liked making the characters slightly more heroic in AD&D; though I initially opposed the idea that PCs are superior to average person of the race, I've grown to accept that it makes for a superior storytelling.


4e, I don't care about it too much. I don't really find it doing anything better than 3.5e does (aside from balance which I rather fix through auxillary means) and as such, I never really had any reason to switch over. Especially since none of my IRL friends really cared for 4e either giving us no pressure to arrange for extended 4e campaigns beyond small trials.

But yeah, I definitely enjoy both, AD&D (especially 2e) and 3.5e and feel both did so many things better than the other that the ideal D&D edition would be between them somewhere. Note that all this feels like D&D to me and as such, I don't consider multiple editions necessary if the ideal edition existed, especially with an Unearthed Arcana-calibre Tome directed towards customizing the game towards each player archetypes' desires (that could be called "Dungeon Master's Guide"). As it stands, we'll probably never get that so I don't mind playing multiple editions.

cZak
2010-01-04, 11:32 PM
Nah, by the time 5e comes out, all the grognards that played Chainmail and would be inclined to do that will have raged themselves into a heart attack.



:smalltongue:

Crap, I feel like someone just told me the time & date of my death...:smalleek:

Kylarra
2010-01-04, 11:42 PM
Crap, I feel like someone just told me the time & date of my death...:smalleek:Well, ...


I hope sincerely hope you enjoy the remaining years of your life. :smalltongue:

Knaight
2010-01-05, 12:03 AM
Back to topic, most of it is brand loyalty. The edition wars are trivial compared to what we see between computer companies, soda, and worst of all, cars. And really, a lot of it has to do with cost. Fudge and Fate(2nd edition Fudge for all intents and purposes) basically encountered no edition wars, people play one or the other, poach mechanics, etc. Both are available free online. Lets look at computers now. Easily 500-1000 dollars frequently, and high end stuff exceeds that, and the brand loyalty is frequently absurd. Soda is comparable among some, however so is pricing. At 1/3 of a dollar per can(in a 6 pack), given that 6 cans of soda a day is common, you have over 700 dollars worth per year. At 1 can a day that takes 6 years, meaning it is consistent with computers that are updated periodically, for many.

Cars are probably among the biggest, and while part of the brand loyalty ends up being national loyalty, cost comes in here too. Cars can easily cost 10 to 20 thousand dollars for typical new models, high end stuff drags that way up. Furthermore people swap out cars fairly frequently, like computers 5 or so years is typical.

Annually, it comes out to something like this:
Computers: 100-200 dollars annually, ignoring components, internet, etc.
Soda: 100-800 dollars annually, depending on consumption rate.
Cars: 2000-4000 dollars annually, ignoring insurance and similar.

Obviously things go way out in other directions. Someone might buy a used car at 3000 dollars and use it for 10 years, someone might update computers annually and buy very high end(2000-3000 dollar) machines, a lot of people drink very little soda.

Now, looking at game systems, assume a turn over rate of about 4 years, and lets look at annual cost.
D&D 3.5: Usually 30+ dollars, depending on how much is bought.
D&D 4e: Either 15+ or 30+ dollars, depending on whether the core material was bought in a book or not.
Most One Book Systems: 10+ dollars, in a 1 time purchase.
Savage Worlds: $2.50.
Fudge/Fate/Other Free but Full Length Games: 0$

The D&D edition was was particularly vicious, but then D&D is more expensive than most. And the most vocal people frequently were those with the largest collections, and thus the highest cost. Furthermore, the claim that the new edition will make it harder to find someone else to play the game with tends to be more true with D&D, given that it controls an absurd market share. Those of us that mainly play games with about 10,000 people total in them aren't likely to make a big deal out of it. Let alone those who found a really obscure indie game with players in the hundreds.

Choco
2010-01-05, 09:49 AM
A few people I know stick to the edition/system they were introduced to gaming with, for no other reason than it was the first (and ONLY as far as they are concerned) system they learned. I have a friend who has been playing since the very first version of D&D came out (even still has his original Gygax-written, 40-ish page paperback rulebook) and it took him until about 1995 to finally switch over to AD&D. He has tried 3rd edition and hates it just because it is too different compared to what he and his group are used to.

I can understand the logic though, not everyone wants to learn a new system every few years. I personally was not planning on getting into 4th edition but decided to give it a shot anyway, and I rather like the ease and speed of play.

So basically, people have preferences and as long as older editions are available there will be people that play them. And of course there are always those among all these groups that insist on making it known how superior their chosen edition is to all others. Thus edition wars will NEVER go away.

Matthew
2010-01-05, 01:29 PM
I wonder how many people actually enjoy multiple editions of the game? Especially with OD&D, AD&D, 3rd, and 4th all so different from each other, can't it be possible to appreciate each for their strengths?

I am in that group, I would say. On the whole I prefer to run second edition AD&D, but will quite happily play any of the others, assuming somebody else is running them.

Gamerlord
2010-01-05, 01:33 PM
I wonder how many people actually enjoy multiple editions of the game? Especially with OD&D, AD&D, 3rd, and 4th all so different from each other, can't it be possible to appreciate each for their strengths?

I adore both 3.5 and 4e.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-01-05, 03:18 PM
2nd ed and 3.5 are my favorites... I can't stand 4e... every time i play i always think to my self.. i could be playing an mmo right now. ya its stupid but every time i look at it all i can think of is video games...

just like i look at TOB as anime... though i do ocasionaly play with it and enjoy running tob characters... its all just opinions.

I have no problem arguing about the suck that is 4th ed though... and gladly head to the front on that... i can't stand that system...
Though i respect peoples opinions that they may like it.

YvizztX23
2010-01-09, 01:27 PM
Hmm. Interesting points. It should be known that, recently, I picked up some used 3rd Edition books, and received Pathfinder for Christmas. I've been playing a casual campaign with my neighbor, who knew virtually nothing about the game, but seems to be enjoying it. There's stuff from both editions I enjoy and think are worthwhile.

I think the thing about how much you like or hate an edition is how much you're willing to change the rules. I doubt I'd be enjoying my 4e campaign as much if my group and I hadn't changed a bunch of different rules to make combat faster, less painful, and most of all, mini-less. People who don't want to change the rules won't want to change the things about a system they don't like. That's one of the best things about D&D, or RPGs in general. You can change something you don't like if you want to.

Anyway, the main problem with the edition wars is the amount of people who make it sound like WotC is hiring armed thugs to come to their homes and take away their books at gunpoint. I can see that they might be a bit peeved that they shelled out about a hundred dollars for something they don't like (which is why you look for free PDFs first, in my opinion), or that now there won't be any more official content released, which is silly, because between Pathfinder and the fact that there's more official stuff out there than they will find a use for in their whole lives.

Additionally, I've heavily house-ruled my 4e campaign, to the point that it seems to be a 4e game sort of pretending to be a 3.5 game. There's more role-playing to be had, and combat is much faster. The thing is, though, is that people who are playing 3.5 and would want that sort of role-playing if they ever started a 4e session should just stick with 3.5 for now. They can get all of that in 3.5, so there's really no reason to change. I'm playing 4e because that's actually the system I started with, but I might try Pathfinder for the next campaign (even though that's going to be a while!).

Of course, one thing we mus remember is that the two are different enough that comparing 3.5 and 4e is like comparing apples to oranges. Naturally, some people simply prefer apples to oranges, or oranges to apples, or like both, or just don't like either of them.

Lastly, like someone wisely said above, though, this is nothing compared to the fights that go on about things like Apple vs. Microsoft, Coke vs. Pepsi, or the insane flaming you'll see on, say, IGN about how much PS3 fans hate 360 fans, and how much the latter hates the former, much language and death threats thrown in. It's a relief that they (hopefully) relegate their aggression to internet hate-mongering and online death matches.

YvizztX23
2010-01-13, 05:57 PM
I adore both 3.5 and 4e.

Can I say HEAR! HEAR! strongly enough?:smallbiggrin:

Starbuck_II
2010-01-13, 06:12 PM
I've played AD&D (no player options though), 3.0, 3.5, and 4E.

I disliked THAC0 (seemed backwards to me) and that DM never let my Fighter Specialize (which was Fighter main ability): Granted the DM was the issue. I remember his DMPC (had more magic items than us).

I'd play any D&D game though.