OOTS #697 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Eloel]

Cool, just when I was checking if there was a new one!

Elan and brain cells don't mesh together :smallbiggrin:

[SavageWombat]

Don't you love it when Rich devotes an entire strip just to putting forum debates to rest?

[Neopolis]

Oh, how very meta. :)

[TengYt]

Hillarious as always.

[Exitus]

Too much thinky!

Seriously, did they just dismiss everything any forumgoer ever guessed?

[OracleofWuffing]

Uh, why don't they just search through the whole desert? :smalltongue:

[Meta]

Keep wishing for that search montage Elan!

[holywhippet]

Did I understand the last panel correctly? Because they skipped the montage they went straight to "night has fallen and the search has failed"?

[RMS Oceanic]

Hmm, a lot of theories debunked, with still no obvious choice of path for the Order to take.

I liked Roy attempting to take a short cut to finding the gate and it failing. "A searching montage, you say?" :smallsmile:

[Mauve Shirt]

Don't you love it when Rich devotes an entire strip just to putting forum debates to rest?

Yes I do. :smallbiggrin:

[Lissou]

Nice pink polymorph. It's nice seeing V use magic that's... well, useful while being non-combat.

Is it normal for Durkon to say "wit" rather than "with" in the first panel? I'm not sure if that's his accent or a typo.

[SPoD]

Did I understand the last panel correctly? Because they skipped the montage they went straight to "night has fallen and the search has failed"?

Yeah, that's how I interpreted it. They spent the rest of the day searching the exact spot that the message was in, and found nothing.

[Wind d8/d12]

Well, I'll take a stab at this one. The title is "Stuck in the Sand Trap" a golf term. Sand traps are put there just to be in the way, but they are generally near the goal. Based on that, I'm reassured that they are near the right place.

[BigFatLion]

Well they did already to a searching montage, having another one so soon would lower the effectiveness of it. They need a brain storming montage instead.

[Welf]

Hah, I knew it. No double bluffs. :smallbiggrin:

[Siegel]

Oh, man ! What is going on there ?

[Akabana_Shin]

WIFOM is really mind-breaking. Awesome.

[HandofShadows]

Did I understand the last panel correctly? Because they skipped the montage they went straight to "night has fallen and the search has failed"?

Yep. :) The search has failed and now they are looking at doing a search montage. Girard SHOULD have looked in by the time night fell. Which suggests he is either dead or incapacitated in some form.

[Nevitan]

Man, The Order has really hit a wall here..

[Lissou]

"Sure, if you grasp how paladins think. Mr. Booby Trap here clearly doesn't, or he wouldn't have bet on one to break his oath."

Haley fails statistics forever.

Or something.

That sentence struck me as odd too. If Girard thought to make a double Bluff, who says he wouldn't think to lie about assuming the person who sees his illusion is Soon (or sent by Soon)?

But I'm still going to say that if the Giant bothered to tell us all of that, it's probably for something. I'm going to keep assuming (unless proven wrong) that Girard wasn't lying, and that he really thought Soon would break his oath, and that the illusion was meant for him.

EDIT: did someone delete your post in the time it took me to answer it? :smallconfused:

[Orzel]

I knew it was too obvious to be a double bluff.

[Warlord JK]

Has anyone noticed a striking similarity between pictures of Girard and Haley's father?

[Dvandemon]

I'm so glad that right when I checked back it updated:smallbiggrin: Still a very interesting strip; can't you just here all the theories about Girard crash after being shot down?

[GenPol]

Nice pink polymorph. It's nice seeing V use magic that's... well, useful while being non-combat.

Is it normal for Durkon to say "wit" rather than "with" in the first panel? I'm not sure if that's his accent or a typo.

Yeah, I think he always says wit'. I'd go looking through the archives to prove it, but I'm incredibly lazy...

Hah, this killed so many threads... Yes I know I've already been massively ninja'd, but I thought i'd say it again anyway. You know, for emphasis...

[Lissou]

Has anyone noticed a striking similarity between pictures of Girard and Haley's father?

Yeah, they're both stick figures. You noticed, too?

(Same hair colour, both have facial hair, both are Caucasian... They don't have much more in common than two random stick figures do).

[Knight13]

"Sure, if you grasp how paladins think. Mr. Booby Trap here clearly doesn't, or he wouldn't have bet on one to break his oath."

Haley fails statistics forever.

Or something.
Not sure what you mean here, paladins are meticulous about keeping oaths. Betting on a paladin to break one is like betting on a sleeping turtle to win a horse race.

[Bendigeidfran]

The answer to this riddle grows deeper and more mysterious; oh! The suspence, it's killing me!:smallwink:

[Eldrys]

great comic. Montages are the best

[Kish]

Not sure what you mean here, paladins are meticulous about keeping oaths. Betting on a paladin to break one is like betting on a sleeping turtle to win a horse race.
I moved my post to a place where it will be less likely to derail the entire discussion thread. :smalltongue: There's been an energetic discussion of the validity of Girard's predictions since strip #694. You're right, of course, and the post you responded to from me is/was entirely sarcastic.

[Neopolis]

Not sure what you mean here, paladins are meticulous about keeping oaths. Betting on a paladin to break one is like betting on a sleeping turtle to win a horse race.
Of course in that case it doesn't really matter whether or not you grasp the thought processes of a turtle.:smallamused:

[Name Lips]

I think Gerard DOES know how Paladins think. And he knows a Paladin wouldn't break his oath. And I think he knew something else that we don't.



I think he knew that Soon wasn't really a Paladin.

[Moogleking]

I think Gerard DOES know how Paladins think. And he knows a Paladin wouldn't break his oath. And I think he knew something else that we don't.



I think he knew that Soon wasn't really a Paladin.

Sir, there is a reason you do not write fantasy epics.

This is one.

[Lissou]

What struck me as odd is that Haley still assumes it's for Soon.

Now, it's not a theory I actually have, but imagine:

Girard knows Lirian's gate has been destroyed. Then Dorukan's gate. Then Soon's.

He knows someone strong enough has been going from one gate to the next. Soon has the coordinates. They might be headed to his gate next.

> He puts an illusion to pretend he gave the wrong coordinate to Soon because he hated him. Drops Serini's name in the hope of sending the people after her when he knows she's dead (for instance).

Seems more likely to me than "Girard used a double Bluff but directed to Soon only".

Anyway, as I said, I'm still taking it at face value, especially since they haven't found anything as of now. I'm just pointing it out. If you start assuming it's double-bluff, it doesn't make sense to keep assuming what's said in the double bluff it's true (namely, that he things it has a 90% chance to be Soon or his paladins, that he put the illusion a long time ago ("if you broke your oath within ten weeks I win"), etc, etc).
If it's a trick, if it's a double bluff, there is no reason to take ANYTHING Girard said as the truth.

Of course, as Roy said it doesn't matter at all since they searched and didn't find anything, so the gate probably isn't there.
I just find it weird that Haley just... trusts what Girard says to be true. Especially since it's Haley.

(But I guess it makes sense as a message to the reader to stop overanalising everything and making weird theories. So I'll shut up now :P)

[chiasaur11]

A montage and a badger?

Truly, this is the most glorious of days.

[Asta Kask]

I'm so glad that right when I checked back it updated:smallbiggrin: Still a very interesting strip; can't you just here all the theories about Girard crash after being shot down?

Yeah, like things like facts ever dissuaded anyone from holding a theory in this place. :smallsmile:

[bubba0077]

Actually, given the tone of Roy's comment in the last panel, I'm wondering if he is considering using a search montage to search the entire desert, a thought that occurred to him while everyone else was searching the immediate area.

[Aerysil]

The pattern of humor since they reached the desert is.. different. I dunno. I miss the "my last breath... is also my mintiest" style. I'll keep watching though!

[Lissou]

Actually, given the tone of Roy's comment in the last panel, I'm wondering if he is considering using a search montage to search the entire desert, a thought that occurred to him while everyone else was searching the immediate area.

You could say it looks like Elan gave him an idea, but there wouldn't need to wait so long for that to happen. He could have interrupted himself, looked at Elan and said "did you just say "a Search montage"?"
But instead V's back to being V, it's dark, everybody stopped moving instead of being searching, etc.

So I think it's the first thing, although I wasn't quite sure when I read it.

[factotum]

I think he knew that Soon wasn't really a Paladin.

And the prize for the Most Unlikely Epileptic Tree of 2010 goes to...Name Lips!

(Yes, I know we're only 2 days into 2010, but the staggering unlikelihood of anyone topping that leads me to give the award early :smallbiggrin:).

[Porthos]

It's a little confusing what happened, but here's my stab at what is going on.

This is two running gags at once.

The first running gag is the "hopefully we'll just cut to us finding the gate", like we saw in action here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0155.html). In this case the party skipped ahead in time to the next plot-relevant section.

The second running gag is the invocation of the montage scene as seen here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0391.html). In this case Elan zoomed through a bunch of stuff super-quickly.

Roy attempted to use the first running gag, and failed. Therefore he is thinking about using Elan's idea of using a montage scene instead.

That's how I read it at least.

[Altaria87]

The whole 'double-bluff' thing reminds me SO much about when I used to play Pokemon competitively "but what if he anticipated this entire train of thought and IS just going to focus punch if I switch out?"
Otherwise, I hope something useful happens for the Order soon

[Gamerlord]

Do I detect a subtle insult at those who said the gate was there all along? :smalltongue:

[Elfin]

Nothing like a good montage...
Excellent.

[Orzel]

When it comes to paladins:

Count on them to not break an oath, code, or promise
UNLESS

1) The paladin gripes about it aloud at least twice
2) The paladin is weak willed (for a paladin) and recently suffered a great personal loss.
3) The paladin starts editing (or misinterpreting it)

[Aaron]

Well, that puts an end to the forum debates over if the gate is there or not. :smallwink:

[CoffeeIncluded]

So, do you think this comic was made just to debunk the mass guessing of the fans?

[Porthos]

Nothing like a good montage...
Excellent.

I'd agree with you....

... IF there was a montage in this strip. But there wasn't. :smalltongue:

Hopefully we'll get one in the next strip, tho. :smallwink:

[Asta Kask]

So, do you think this comic was made just to debunk the mass guessing of the fans?

I think Rich knows us too well to assume that anything as paltry as a Word of God is going to stop the speculations...

[SPoD]

What struck me as odd is that Haley still assumes it's for Soon.

Now, it's not a theory I actually have, but imagine:

Girard knows Lirian's gate has been destroyed. Then Dorukan's gate. Then Soon's.

He knows someone strong enough has been going from one gate to the next. Soon has the coordinates. They might be headed to his gate next.

> He puts an illusion to pretend he gave the wrong coordinate to Soon because he hated him. Drops Serini's name in the hope of sending the people after her when he knows she's dead (for instance).

Seems more likely to me than "Girard used a double Bluff but directed to Soon only".


The biggest argument against this theory is that it assumes that Girard is still alive and cast the illusion recently, rather than that the illusion is old and out-of-date. I see what you're saying, in that the message may have been carefully crafted to give the appearance of being an old and out-of-date message, but that seems unnecessarily complex.

Given human lifespans, the likelihood that Girard is still kicking around at age 90+ is less than the chance that he is not, though obviously there's always room for life-extending magic. (Though he didn't seem to share any with Dorukan, who was likely his superior in spellcasting prowess.)

[Yendor]

I think Rich knows us too well to assume that anything as paltry as a Word of God is going to stop the speculations...

Still, there's nothing as cathartic as sitting back and saying to the forum, "You're all wrong! Again!"

[Blas_de_Lezo]

¡¡Thanks Giant!! ¡And Happy New Year! Here's some good vibes to you :smallsmile:

BZZZZZZZZZ

~~~~~~~~ \(^_^)/ ~~~~~~~~

[delguidance]

I like "Hare-be-gone"

As someone who plays polymorphers I'm disapointed that V went with badger. There must be superior things to change into.

[xyzzy]

Well, that puts an end to the forum debates over if the gate is there or not. :smallwink:

Are you kidding me? Rich could make a thread called "LIST OF THINGS THAT ARE COMPLETELY TRUE ALWAYS FOREVER" and people would still dispute every one of them.

Wait, now we just need to get the characters debating something that's mathematically true and then there will literally be a debate about objective fact!

[Badgercloak]

Greatness. :smallbiggrin: That'll keep me laughing for the rest of BCT.

[Lissou]

The biggest argument against this theory is that it assumes that Girard is still alive and cast the illusion recently, rather than that the illusion is old and out-of-date. I see what you're saying, in that the message may have been carefully crafted to give the appearance of being an old and out-of-date message, but that seems unnecessarily complex.

Given human lifespans, the likelihood that Girard is still kicking around at age 90+ is less than the chance that he is not, though obviously there's always room for life-extending magic. (Though he didn't seem to share any with Dorukan, who was likely his superior in spellcasting prowess.)

Note that I don't hold, nor have I ever held, this particular theory (or any theory on the matter, really).
I just find it odd that Haley would "trust" Girard so much, considering her personality. So I found that specific sentence weird. Kinda like she said "Assuming everything he's saying is 100% accurate and he's not trying to trick us in any way, then I'd say he's not lying".

Obviously, the "theory" I'm naming doesn't hold much water, either, but it was just an example popping out of my head.

Anyway, let's forget about this, and direct our silly theories another way.
What do you think are the odds that V's burrowing accidentally erased or altered Elan's message in the sand?

[Joerg]

The likelihood that Girard is dead increases.

Now several hours have passed, and even though he should have been notified that his spell was triggered (as the illusion says in 695), he has not appeared.

This means he is either not interested in who triggered the spell (which would be rather incredibly dumb) or he is not interested in contacting the Order (which would still be very stupid) or he has no possibility to scry and / or contact.

Since he was an epic level sorcerer or wizard, the last possibility means he's not capable of doing anything right now, meaning he's probably dead. But why / how?

[Yora]

Well, that puts an end to the forum debates over if the gate is there or not. :smallwink:

What gate?

[Hyoumu Yau]

It's good that I checked for updates ^^.

Poor Elan, I never thought he was so short on baincells :smallbiggrin: Even if they never had a good relationship:smalltongue:

[SPoD]

I just find it odd that Haley would "trust" Girard so much, considering her personality. So I found that specific sentence weird. Kinda like she said "Assuming everything he's saying is 100% accurate and he's not trying to trick us in any way, then I'd say he's not lying".

I think she's saying more, "Assuming that at least 50% of what he's saying is accurate, there wouldn't be much benefit to lying in this exact manner." If every single word is a lie, then all hope of measuring it goes out the window. And as Roy points out, it no longer matters if they just can't find the stupid thing.

[Trixie]

Has anyone noticed a striking similarity between pictures of Girard and Haley's father?

It has been pointed out about ~21.435 times so far.

And no, they don't really look alike.


Not sure what you mean here, paladins are meticulous about keeping oaths. Betting on a paladin to break one is like betting on a sleeping turtle to win a horse race.

Hey, guess what is easier to break... something stiff and hard, or springy and elastic? :smallamused:

If you picked option A), I have nice tower in Waterdeep I'd like to sell you for a modest price.

Really, absolutely illogic, irrational and fact-defying (ahem) faith some people seem to place in the paladins... well, amuses me to no end :smallamused:

And sorry, Haley, I'd expect someone trying to trick paladin he accompanied for years to have better idea than you what he is doing.

[deworde]

Hey, guess what is easier to break... something stiff and hard, or springy and elastic? :smallamused:

If you picked option A), I have nice tower in Waterdeep I'd like to sell you for a modest price.


.... Option A was the stiff and hard one. I think you've just tripped over your own snarkwire.

[Blue_C.]

First:

What gate?
Lol.

Second:

Given human lifespans, the likelihood that Girard is still kicking around at age 90+ is less than the chance that he is not, though obviously there's always room for life-extending magic. (Though he didn't seem to share any with Dorukan, who was likely his superior in spellcasting prowess.)

I think Dorukan was also quite a bit younger than the other humans in the OotC. Definitely younger than Soon, who was already grey-haired in the group shot in Serini's journal, and he looks to me younger than Girard as well. It's hard to tell with stick figures of course, but that Serini refers to him as a kid is enough for me.

So yeah. If Dorukan was one good sneeze from death before the party set foot in his castle, I'm pretty sure Girard has been dead for some time.

[Sewblon]

Does Roy actually think that a searching montage would help his chances, or is he just humoring Elan?

[SPoD]

Does Roy actually think that a searching montage would help his chances, or is he just humoring Elan?

I think he's just ready to try anything at that point.

[Trixie]

.... Option A was the stiff and hard one. I think you've just tripped over your own snarkwire.

Obviously, you cannot gasp the might of my reverse psychology! :smalltongue:

[Samurai Jill]

Don't you love it when Rich devotes an entire strip just to putting forum debates to rest?
Great. Now I'm now entirely baffled. This is why I stopped reading the forums.

[silversaraph]

I love how sand was kicked up on V, where a party member could have otherwise noticed something.

[Bradakhan]

I don't know if this is a mistake or not, but did Blackwing polymorph with V? :smallconfused:

[Ellen]

I'm not a big D&D gamer (you're all horrified, I'm sure), but isn't there a spell for speaking to the dead? I'm only mentioning it because Roy's dad did way back towards the beginning).

And didn't one member of the Order of the Scribble die in battle in a way that had nothing to do with soul stealing liches?

So, assuming he died without his soul being sucked into the Snarl, would it be worth trying to conjure him up to get some answers?

By the way, as he was a character with a name, is there any reason we should think he wasn't raised when they brought his body home?

Of course, if Girard's dead, there may be a way to bring him back . . . .

Although, even without knowing the rules on that, I have a feeling it's easier to hit Redcloak on the head and pop the red cloak on a dwarven cleric who serves a good deity, make him a cleric of the Dark One, and absorb whatever information packet he downloads into new, chief clerics and expect that to work (I'm just guessing, but a nongoblin cleric of a nonevil, also nongoblin diety who puts it on probably gets fried up like a little piece of bacon and served on toast).

If Girard had an army involved in guarding his gate, it might be possible to locate a large population centers, but I'm guessing he doesn't.

So, plan B, go with Elan's narrative drama instincts.

[DabblerWizard]

V. should obviously create a Gate-finding spell, just because it would be cool... let's ignore the book-shortening implications.

[Tobimaro]

Ow! My brain hurts. :smalltongue:

Anyways, But I too am glad to see the most active of the forumites get shot down by the PCs themselves. I just wonder what song that Elan will sing? "You Fail?" :smalltongue:

[TheBlackShadow]

I think Gerard DOES know how Paladins think. And he knows a Paladin wouldn't break his oath. And I think he knew something else that we don't.



I think he knew that Soon wasn't really a Paladin.

While the idea at first does sound completely ridiculous, it does strike me as strange that Girard would interpret Paladin behaviour so inaccurately despite having spent years adventuring and fighting alongside one. He might dislike authority figures and dislike Paladins for being Lawful Stupid, he should now them better than to believe that Soon would betray his oath. Either it has something to do with the circumstances of the Order of the Scribble's collapse, or maybe something sneaky is afoot.

[Calmness]

The characters sounded like forumites this time.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

As someone who plays polymorphers I'm disapointed that V went with badger. There must be superior things to change into.
Agreed. I was actually expecting a giant desert worm. That would've been epic.

You know, if the few who think Girard is Haley's father are correct, what if Haley is somehow fast-talking them to get away from the search for the Gate, until she can process exactly what's going on? I mean, as long as they're there, they can protect the Gate anyhow.

[Zxo]

That discussion they had was hard to follow... Was it a joke about the forums? :D

V's polymorph is cute.

[Kish]

While the idea at first does sound completely ridiculous, it does strike me as strange that Girard would interpret Paladin behaviour so inaccurately despite having spent years adventuring and fighting alongside one. He might dislike authority figures and dislike Paladins for being Lawful Stupid, he should now them better than to believe that Soon would betray his oath. Either it has something to do with the circumstances of the Order of the Scribble's collapse, or maybe something sneaky is afoot.
Or maybe being philosophically dedicated to the idea that deception is the most powerful force there is and "honor and a silver piece will get you a hunk of cheese" is every bit as ideologically blinding as any "Lawful Stupid" philosophy could ever be.

[Teddy]

While the idea at first does sound completely ridiculous, it does strike me as strange that Girard would interpret Paladin behaviour so inaccurately despite having spent years adventuring and fighting alongside one. He might dislike authority figures and dislike Paladins for being Lawful Stupid, he should now them better than to believe that Soon would betray his oath. Either it has something to do with the circumstances of the Order of the Scribble's collapse, or maybe something sneaky is afoot.

Someone who relies too heavily on lies may pretty soon start to believe that everyone else is lying and decieving as much as him, and that everyone else are putting up a facade the same way that he is. If there are too-lawfuls who can't grasp the fact that people may be lying to them or break oaths and promises, why wouldn't there be too-chaotics who works from the presumption that everyone (especially their enemies) are lying to them and that oaths and promises just are empty words?

[J.Gellert]

Awesome, though I am not sure I got what happened at the end.

[Teddy]

Awesome, though I am not sure I got what happened at the end.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0155.html), I think, and apparently it didn't work this time (at least not the way he wanted). I'm not 100% sure of what Roy would hope to achieve with a montage, though... He must be really desperate.

[iTookUrNick]

It's a little confusing what happened, but here's my stab at what is going on.

This is two running gags at once.

The first running gag is the "hopefully we'll just cut to us finding the gate", like we saw in action here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0155.html). In this case the party skipped ahead in time to the next plot-relevant section.

The second running gag is the invocation of the montage scene as seen here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0391.html). In this case Elan zoomed through a bunch of stuff super-quickly.

Roy attempted to use the first running gag, and failed. Therefore he is thinking about using Elan's idea of using a montage scene instead.

That's how I read it at least.

I second this interpretation. It makes sense, it is well explained and it contains relevant references to previous strips. :D

[Mr. Pin]

I think Gerard DOES know how Paladins think. And he knows a Paladin wouldn't break his oath. And I think he knew something else that we don't.



I think he knew that Soon wasn't really a Paladin.


While the idea at first does sound completely ridiculous, it does strike me as strange that Girard would interpret Paladin behaviour so inaccurately despite having spent years adventuring and fighting alongside one. He might dislike authority figures and dislike Paladins for being Lawful Stupid, he should now them better than to believe that Soon would betray his oath. Either it has something to do with the circumstances of the Order of the Scribble's collapse, or maybe something sneaky is afoot.

Something sneaky I could believe, but come on now. Dude smites evil, founds an order of paladins, has Serini believing (or at least saying) he's a paladin, and acts in accordance not only with paladin law but with paladin stereotype. He says "paladin" like a D&D webcomic says "geek". Now, maybe he's overdoing it-there's certainly cause to believe that bardic tradition dictates overacting hides an "astonishing" (:smallwink: :smallwink: nudge nudge) secret, but the thing that proves his paladinosity to me is Girard's "it should have been you who died in that rift, you cowardly son of a bitch". Girard, no matter what his intelligence score is, is clearly a bona-fide idiot. If Soon is a paladin, he's straight-up immune to fear. Not harry-potter style "oh****oh****oh**** I'm so scared but REAL bravery is overcoming my fear (cue soaring, uplifting music as the hero gets up for the third time and shouts 'this is for my dead dog!')" but actual genuine Green Lantern lack of the capability to be afraid. If he's not a paladin, then his willingness to go all ghost-martyr and attack Xykon regardless of consequences to himself shows what Girard might regard as genuine bravery. If he genuinely abandoned his duty and GTFO'd, allowing Kraagor to die in his place, he's not a paladin, but if that were the case, everyone would know it, and Girard wouldn't need to tell him how much of a coward he was. It's absolutely clear to me that Girard is blaming Soon because he's guilty about something.

[Larsaan]

Sir, there is a reason you do not write fantasy epics.

This is one.

While Soon was certainly a paladin, it's possible he did make one big mistake that caused him to temporarily Fall, or at least come close to doing so. Consider his speech to Miko about redemtion. Speaking from his own experience, maybe?

[salinan]

And the prize for the Most Unlikely Epileptic Tree of 2010 goes to...Name Lips!

(Yes, I know we're only 2 days into 2010, but the staggering unlikelihood of anyone topping that leads me to give the award early :smallbiggrin:).

...

You don't come here often, do you? :smalltongue:

[denthor]

I do not believe anybody else has brought this up. Take a look at the desert gate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)and again here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)

There are mountains or hills in the back round. Now look at the last two strips it is flat desert. I kept waiting for Giant to give a 360 degree pan but I now know they are in the wrong spot.

Percentage dice indeed. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0694.html)

[Shale]

It's been brought up at least four or five times. As we (a) haven't seen a 360-degree pan around the desert, (b) don''t know how accurate the crayon drawings are and (c) don't even know if the mountains are still there anyway, it's impossible to tell how much of a clue that is.

[Moriarty]

i don't get why people think the forumites have been "shut down" by this comic.

the pcs experienced exactly the same stuff we did, they are just as clueless as we are. Just because they arrive at different conclusions doesn't mean theirs are more accurate than those presented by posters.

[Kumo]

Girard had better not say "Haley, i am your father". That would just kill it's originality forever.

Or at least for a while.

[Gitman00]

Badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger Mushroom Mushroom badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger SNAAAAAAKE! SNAAAAAAKE!

:smallbiggrin:

[Zevox]

Eh, decent comic. Nice to know what the Order is going to do now. Not particularly funny though - yeah, there was that joke about Elan being stupid, but it felt kinda rehashed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0328.html), and the end joke wasn't much better. Looking forward to the next one though. Seems to me like we're almost at the point where we might switch over to Team Evil, the Linear Guild, or some other group while the Order searches for the Gate or travels somewhere else.


I'm not a big D&D gamer (you're all horrified, I'm sure), but isn't there a spell for speaking to the dead? I'm only mentioning it because Roy's dad did way back towards the beginning).
There is a spell called "Speak with Dead," but it doesn't work the way you're thinking. It requires the corpse - or, at minimum, the skull - of the dead person you wish to speak with, and it does not actually summon the soul of the dead person. It merely enables the empty body to speak and answer a few questions using the remnants of the imprinted knowledge from its mind.

I don't know if there is a method for conjuring specific souls of the dead in the way some summoning spells allow the conjuring of outsiders, which is more what you're thinking. There may be in some book I haven't read, but there isn't in core D&D.

Why exactly Roy's father was able to visit him we don't really know, since Roy apparently couldn't communicate with anyone when he was following them around as a dead spirit.


And didn't one member of the Order of the Scribble die in battle in a way that had nothing to do with soul stealing liches?
Yes and no. Yes, his companions seem to think he is dead, and his soul wasn't captured by Xykon. No, he may not be dead, or his soul may not exist anymore if he is. Girard's line "It should have been you who died in that rift" tells us that Kraagor's apparent death had something to do with the rift, most likely falling into it. In that case, we have three possibilities:

1) He was undone by the Snarl.
2) He did not die, but instead wound up on the planet that Blackwing saw within the rift.
3) Something else we cannot now predict occurred.

Only in case 3 (the least likely of the possibilities) might there be any way to contact him now, and that depends on there being a way to contact a specific dead soul without his body, and the Order knowing about it.


By the way, as he was a character with a name, is there any reason we should think he wasn't raised when they brought his body home?
The scene of Serini weeping over his grave, Girard blaming Soon for his death and hating him for it, and the fact that only in case 3 of the above-mentioned possibilities for his fate would that be possible are all compelling evidence that he was not. There is also the distinct possibility that he fell into the rift and they were thus not able to retrieve his body, regardless of how he died.

Zevox

[Prowl]

We must be pretty stretched for material to continue the story, when we get, in place of a real strip, a re-hashed forum discussion. I'd rather see Team Peregrine or the Azurites or Team Evil or the Linear Guild something else in the meantime if this part of the story is destined to come to a slow resolution.

[Acero]

We must be pretty stretched for material to continue the story, when we get, in place of a real strip, a re-hashed forum discussion. I'd rather see Team Peregrine or the Azurites or Team Evil or the Linear Guild something else in the meantime if this part of the story is destined to come to a slow resolution.

he's putting down all the sparatic Girard/Gate threads.

i thank you Giant

[Raven the Rogue]

Wow. Looks like the OotS has his a wall... wonder what they'll do next.

[Conuly]

Why exactly Roy's father was able to visit him we don't really know, since Roy apparently couldn't communicate with anyone when he was following them around as a dead spirit.

Because of that whole Blood Oath nonsense and the fact that Roy was the eldest child. Possibly Roy would have been able to contact Julia while dead (did he try that?), but possibly not - the Blood Oath no longer applied to him because he'd died trying to fulfill it, so - unlike Eugene - he had no NEED to talk to Julia and tell her how to help his soul move on.

[rewinn]

I am the only one who snickered when Haley said "Booby Trap"?

Cuz ...

you know ...

she's depicted as having really prominent ...

Trap-Finding skills.

[Zevox]

Because of that whole Blood Oath nonsense and the fact that Roy was the eldest child. Possibly Roy would have been able to contact Julia while dead (did he try that?), but possibly not - the Blood Oath no longer applied to him because he'd died trying to fulfill it, so - unlike Eugene - he had no NEED to talk to Julia and tell her how to help his soul move on.
That's one theory, but not something we know for sure. Especially since Eugene's little visits to Roy only indirectly helped him with the oath by preventing him from dying due to Nale's treachery. Actually, paging through my copy of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools quickly for Eugene's appearances, strip #78 has Eugene tell Roy that the oath prevents him from directly interfering with Roy's efforts against Xykon. So that'd be evidence against that.

(And no, Roy did not attempt contacting Julia. His theory, if I recall, was that he could only contact someone related to him who also had his family sword with them, and she didn't have the sword, so he didn't bother. Though again, that's just a theory, not something we know for sure.)

Zevox

[Ellen]

There is a spell called "Speak with Dead," but it doesn't work the way you're thinking. It requires the corpse - or, at minimum, the skull - of the dead person you wish to speak with, and it does not actually summon the soul of the dead person. It merely enables the empty body to speak and answer a few questions using the remnants of the imprinted knowledge from its mind.

Thanks, Zevox. I figured it couldn't be that easy or we'd have seen it used a few times by now.


The scene of Serini weeping over his grave, Girard blaming Soon for his death and hating him for it, and the fact that only in case 3 of the above-mentioned possibilities for his fate would that be possible are all compelling evidence that he was not. There is also the distinct possibility that he fell into the rift and they were thus not able to retrieve his body, regardless of how he died.


Good points. Too bad, though. I'd really like to see them suddenly find a large map saying "You are here," and "The rift is THERE."

Where's Google Maps when you need it?

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Hey, I'm loving the more semi-regular update schedule! It's funny, about 3 comics back I removed OotS from my bookmarks because there hadn't been any updates for weeks, and then the next day I came to use the forums and there was a new one. I guess I need to have more faith in Rich.

[lothos]

While the idea at first does sound completely ridiculous, it does strike me as strange that Girard would interpret Paladin behaviour so inaccurately despite having spent years adventuring and fighting alongside one. He might dislike authority figures and dislike Paladins for being Lawful Stupid, he should now them better than to believe that Soon would betray his oath. Either it has something to do with the circumstances of the Order of the Scribble's collapse, or maybe something sneaky is afoot.

So.... is this another layer of illusion on Girad's part ? He knew that Soon would never come looking for the gate, so the illusion is there in case someone tortured / compelled Soon in to giving up the coordinates ? Perhaps they will find another spell with different keywords that says something like "Hi Lirian, well I guess you couldn't keep away... I lied about the coordinates". Then yet another for Serini....... so if ANY of the other members of the order of the scribble/crayon ever gave away information about the gates or rifts, then the evil guys who got such information off them would be thrown off the scent.

I really don't know what to believe. It could be any number of levels of bluff. I'm just glad I can't obviously see where the story is going, because that keeps it interesting. Thanks Rich.

[Emo Samurai]

I was just thinking: why would Girard think a bluff like this would even work on Soon? He actually WENT to this gate along with the rest of the Order. I can understand fooling him into thinking it's in a different part of the desert, but the recording makes it sound like the listener's supposed to think he's further off than that. "In the middle of the world's largest desert" implies that the listener's supposed to think it's the wrong desert, and it's obvious that such a bluff would never work on someone who actually went to all 5 gates.

Also,


I guess the honor of a paladin may not be able to be broken, but it sure can be suckered

does not sound like a line someone would say if he thought that paladins COULD break oaths.

Edit: And Girard would never place a magic-nuke if there were a chance that the person standing there wasn't Soon himself. And there are ways of detecting a specific-person's presence beside the use of a crappy heuristic based on words that anyone else seeking the gates could utter.

[Conuly]

Edit: And Girard would never place a magic-nuke if there were a chance that the person standing there wasn't Soon himself. And there are ways of detecting a specific-person's presence beside the use of a crappy heuristic based on words that anyone else seeking the gates could utter.

You don't know that. Maybe Girard is trigger-happy. Maybe after Kraagor's death he turned Belkar on the world. Maybe he just likes blowing stuff up.

[Coidzor]

V makes a very cute purple badger monster.

[Asta Kask]

Wow. Looks like the OotS has his a wall... wonder what they'll do next.

Well if it's the fourth wall we know they can break through that easily...

[Jan Mattys]

Don't you love it when Rich devotes an entire strip just to putting forum debates to rest?

Honestly, no.
Makes me feel like he writes strips based on our speculations, either to confirm or to rebunk them.
I'd rather prefer not to have this feeling at all. I mean, I'd like the "we can speculate all we want and Rich couldn't care less because he already knows his way" approach better.

"Wasting" a strip to explain/rebunk forum speculations looks like a waste of time and effort on his part, and lowers the overall quality of the original work, imho.

Just my opinion. I hope I don't sound too unnecessarily confrontational, but this is how I feel everytime I read a strip that seems like an answer to our constant (and usually quite overthought) crazy mid-week theories...
:smallconfused:

[Lkctgo]

Poor roy, hoist by his own retard.

[factotum]

Why is everyone saying "Oh, Rich has written this to stop the forum speculation"? We all know that whatever he says someone will argue against it, so he must know by now that doing this is pointless. He might well have written this strip to forestall the reader asking pointed questions in future, but all writers do that, even if they're not getting constant feedback.

[squidbreath]

Where's Mr. Scruffy? he can't be lost forever can he? :smalleek:

[Applecore]

When I reread the new strip, I was struck by an odd thought because of Roy's words in the last panel. Elan summoned the "searching montage" a while ago, right? So what if Girard's power was already in place at that time and influenced the montage, so that the OotS is trapped in a kind of illusion the whole time? It is far-fetched, but I think it an interesting idea... An epic breach of the fourth wall by Girard :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, I like it to see V using his/her magic this way.

[Saph]

I actually really like these strips where you see the characters discussing what to do. It's fun watching all the talking points from the threads come up from the characters' viewpoints (and watching the characters throw them out in short order :smalltongue:).

[Kish]

Edit: And Girard would never place a magic-nuke if there were a chance that the person standing there wasn't Soon himself. And there are ways of detecting a specific-person's presence beside the use of a crappy heuristic based on words that anyone else seeking the gates could utter.
"Would never"? That's quite a bold assertion about a character about whom we know very little, especially when one of the most salient things we've seen about him so far, is that he did do exactly that.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Poor roy, hoist by his own retard.

A brief contribution, but one of the first comments in this thread to make me laugh appreciatively. :smallbiggrin:

[Zigg]

Loved the double bluff argument :-)

[Sijo]

But I guess it makes sense as a message to the reader to stop overanalising everything and making weird theories.

Or, he could just move on with the story, which would serve the same purpose AND be more interesting.

Still, nice use of logic here regarding multiple-bluffs. But I hope we don't see it too often.

I'm getting the impression that this whole desert trip is just a time-waster to allow Xykon to find the Gate at the same time (or just before) the heroes. Which is OK. Too bad I find deserts so boring.

Is this the first time V polymorphs? I don't recall. Then again that spell isn't as useful as true Shape Change so he probably wouldn't bother with it too often. (and about time someone checked BELOW ground too.)

[Kish]

Vaarsuvius doesn't know Shapechange. One of the spliced souls did, but that does Vaarsuvius no good now.

[ref]

Because of that whole Blood Oath nonsense and the fact that Roy was the eldest child. Possibly Roy would have been able to contact Julia while dead (did he try that?), but possibly not - the Blood Oath no longer applied to him because he'd died trying to fulfill it, so - unlike Eugene - he had no NEED to talk to Julia and tell her how to help his soul move on.

Plus, Warthog's School has powerful wards against that sort of things.


[Haley] is depicted as having really prominent ...

Trap-Finding skills.

Especially when she takes 20.

[Omergideon]

Well now, this was unexpected. So before I go into my review/opinion of the strip I think that I should explain. Firstly a few people seem to have suggested that this strip was written to try to shut up the people in the forum who are endlessly speculating. Now wether or not is was I don't know (I would think not but that is opinion) but quite simply I do not think it matters. To me a strip should have at least 1 of 3 purposes. First to advance the story. Second to study the characters/a theme or concept. Third to entertain us. If it addresses forum concerns or not is I think irrellevant if it does at least one of these things well.
Secondly as a warning, I enjoy exposition and theorising from characters. I really enjoy it. The council of Elrond is one of my favourite scenes in LOTR for instance. So my review of this is skewed by the fact that even without jokes the characters discussin theories is something I enjoy to read anyway. But moving on.

The Good:
1) As always I comment on the high quality of the art. I do like it and think it good, even if there is nothing new to comment on here. The sand effects, the colours and the polymorph are good but I have seen them before. So the good is that it has stayed as good as always.
2) This is gonna be a long one. Oh, and lacking a single word for what we see here I will lump it under the title of exposition. Whilst i admit that I can appreciate dry exposition through dialogue the discussion in this chapter is far from dry. For a start it is peppered with a number of small jokes from the characters that keep the mood light and prevent it from descending into the kind of tedium exposition can lead to. Belkar himself is the source of much of that humour, which is indeed a good use of his character. But there is even more to it then that.
The dialogue as well includes in it a couple of callbacks to past continuity (particularly from Belkar to Haley regarding bluffing Paladins) to make it enjoyable reading on those grounds. And each character speaks, to my eyes, entirely in character during the entire thing. the dialogue includes the personalised touches that mean that even without images we would likely know who was talking in each case which is a good sign indeed. So the dialogue itself is well written exposition that stays enjoyable even if one does not enjoy the subject matter.
3) As for the content of the dialogue itself (which I take as panels 1-8) I found it to be informative and intelligent. It does indeed address many of the issues raised by the characters thus far and sweeps them away with a highly pertinent point from Roy. If they haven't found it yet then it seems doubtful they ever will in that spot so they need to move on. Haley's points on the nature of double bluffs was pretty good for me to read, and I think I agree with it but that is besides the point. So the dialogue was useful in most every area.
4) Finally the jokes themselves. As I said the small jokes in the early part of the strip kept it flowing through the exposition quite well. And then the final pair of jokes between Elan and Roy were deinately quite funny for me. So in short the ending of the strip was a good punchline.

The bad:
1) There is nothing specific I, as in just I, can see with this strip. I do have some minor general quibbles. Mostly it seemed that exposition aside the strip did not really have enough focus. It seemed that with so much of the strip taken up with dialogue the rest had too little space and time to really develop the jokes enough or for anything dramatic to happen. The small jokes were good but they were still small jokes. The punchline was good but it wasn't enoug to entertain. Stepping outside my own preferences here I would say that the plot was advanced...a little. The characters were used...just about. And the strip was entertaining...enough. Nothing wrong but no area was really that good either.

So all in all I liked the strip but by not focusing so clearly on plot or humour the areas fell below what they could have been. Good in themselves but not living up to the potential they could have had. a 3.5 star strip I would say.


As for everything else, I think that I am inclined to follow on from Haley and take Girard's message at face value. Partly this is my own inclination to take what I see as true unless I have compelling evidence to the contrary. But also because the character work revealed in the massage feels to me to be more powerful and satisfying if the message is not a lie. The more honest it is the better Girard is as a character to me. So until I have evidence to suggest he was lying in the message beyond the circumstantial i.e the OoTS lived or Girard is an illusionist, then I take it as a true and honest message.

[TheBlackShadow]

"Would never"? That's quite a bold assertion about a character about whom we know very little, especially when one of the most salient things we've seen about him so far, is that he did do exactly that.

A significant point. We simply know too little about Girard and the Order of the Scribble as a whole for our speculation to be any more than just that. Until we get to know more about them, their travels, and the full story of their disbandment, anything we say about them might have absolutely no accuracy at all. With the long-running characters whom we have come to know we might make some half-decent deductions, but not so likely here.

[ScottishDragon]

Where is mr.scruffy??he isn't in this strip either.Im starting to get scared!:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

[Kish]

Mr. Scruffy has no particular role in this strip or the last one. Why would Rich bother to draw him just to have him be there?

[The MunchKING]

Yep. :) The search has failed and now they are looking at doing a search montage. Girard SHOULD have looked in by the time night fell. Which suggests he is either dead or incapacitated in some form.

Or he DID look in and just didn't see fit to reply to the OotS for whatever reason.

[factotum]

Or he DID look in and just didn't see fit to reply to the OotS for whatever reason.

So he sees a group of people who are clearly not Soon Kim or any of his paladins and he doesn't choose to investigate further? I mean, I don't have a particularly high opinion of Girard's judgement, but even I don't think he's that much of an idiot.

[The MunchKING]

So he sees a group of people who are clearly not Soon Kim or any of his paladins and he doesn't choose to investigate further? I mean, I don't have a particularly high opinion of Girard's judgement, but even I don't think he's that much of an idiot.

"Well, OK, they are a bunch of would be heros who wanted to tell me an Epic Lich 'Sorecer' is coming after me. Guess I better beef up my anti-lich defenses. Those guys? Ehhh... let 'em wander. They'll never find my Gate at this rate!"

[The MunchKING]

To add to my point, if the guy's strategy is based on lies and hiding his Gate, he's probably not going to reveal it to the Order of the Stick, just because THEY claim they're the Good guys.

And Dorukan showed what leaving your stronghold to confront someone directly will do if they DON'T have your best intrests at heart...

[SoC175]

And as an epic level wizard preparing for a fight against an epic level sorcerer lich he certainly sees no point in letting the OotS join. If he took the leader ship feat even his redshirt cohort would be higher level than the OotS.

[Killer Angel]

It seems that the group (and Roy) are running out of ideas... :smallfrown:

[Acero]

Wow. Looks like the OotS has his a wall... wonder what they'll do next.

if its the 4th one, they'll break it

[Asta Kask]

he's putting down all the sparatic Girard/Gate threads.

i thank you Giant

"Neither rhyme, nor reason, nor logic, nor Word of God stays these forumites from the swift completion of new convoluted theories."

[Kalirren]

I don't know if this theory has been posited, but here's a punt:

This Gate is not only double-bluffed, it's triple-bluffed.

We do know of one source of energy large enough to cause a BOOOOM the size of the one we saw a few strips back:

A Gate exploding.

Given that Girard's primary worry was that Soon would eventually attempt to control a Gate, I'd not be surprised if Girard's response to a Paladin showing up at the Gate's location would be to destroy the Gate.

Note also how the Oracle's response of "Of those two given locations (emphasis mine) Xykon will be within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate first" affords no implication about whether or not the Gate itself will still be there.

So my theory is that Girard's Gate -was- exactly where it was advertised to be, but it is no longer there.

[TheBlackShadow]

Except that all the Gates make a "KRACKAKOOM!" noise when they are destroyed, rather than a "BOOM!" (I believe this was mentioned in the comic itself. Besides, do you see an eery purple hole in the fabric of the Universe pulsating with destructive energy anywhere around there? Me neither.

[ThePhantasm]

This comic = plot hole shovel filling in plot holes.

[Kalirren]

Except that all the Gates make a "KRACKAKOOM!" noise when they are destroyed, rather than a "BOOM!" (I believe this was mentioned in the comic itself. Besides, do you see an eery purple hole in the fabric of the Universe pulsating with destructive energy anywhere around there? Me neither.

Only the Azure City gate made a KRAKAKOOM! noise. Dorukan's made a BOOM!

And I'm sure the rift has plenty of time to grow, even if we can't see it now.

But this is a pointless argument. :smalltongue: I'm sure we'll find out in 5 strips or so.

[Zevox]

Only the Azure City gate made a KRAKAKOOM! noise. Dorukan's made a BOOM!
Might wanna check these things before you make such statements. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html)

Zevox

[fangthane]

It's always nice to see that the characters themselves are thinking about the ramifications of the new information they've got and are doing so intelligently enough to parallel many of the discussions we (likewise moderately intelligently) have had here on the message boards.

It's disappointing how many people assume that Roy, or Haley (or anyone other than perhaps the Oracle) is infallibly accurate in what they say, however. There's no call to claim that they're necessarily rebutting the concepts we (and they) have brought up. After all, they've been wrong (as a group and as individuals) before.

I also think there's a multiple-layer-duplicity thing going on here, but I'm content to see where things lead. I do have a theory or three - but hey, who doesn't? :)

It's been my opinion since the message started that the gate is neither here nor where Serini's journal says, but rather a location roughly between them, such that Xykon will pass within 1000 feet en route to or from Serini's gate. I suppose it could be at the third point of an equilateral, but that seems a bit too orderly for a Chaotic guy - however by the same token I've had chaotic characters do stuff like that just to screw with people who expected something else. I don't think his fight with Soon is as harsh as they've let on, either. I believe that he's using the public perception of a schism to layer additional lies and half-truths. He knows paladins don't break oaths and remain paladins, but he obviously had well-founded concerns (knowing as he must that there are ways around that, including Falling, various means of magical interrogation and deception much like his own, and so forth) that they'd be unable to keep a lid on things.
By appearing to have given Serini the real location, he can plant an illusory gate-complex and illusion it up to give the appropriate appearance at that location. By appearing to be at odds with Soon* to the point of losing his balance entirely, hence making his lack of belief in a paladin's word look credible, he ensures that anyone using the paladins' information to find the gate meets the reception which the Order received.

Meanwhile, the real gate sits elsewhere, hiddenly seamlessly by the terrain.

*I'm not saying there's no animosity there, but that there may not be as much as it appears; we simply don't have sufficient information to be 100% sure either way, though obviously the appearance is that it does exist and is sufficient to provoke murderous rage.

Bottom line, I'm thinking that Girard and Vizzini would have got along famously if not for the latter's penchant for murder.

[Joerg]

"Well, OK, they are a bunch of would be heros who wanted to tell me an Epic Lich 'Sorecer' is coming after me. Guess I better beef up my anti-lich defenses. Those guys? Ehhh... let 'em wander. They'll never find my Gate at this rate!"

Yes, because those guys will certainly know nothing else about that lich apart from that he's an epic sorceror. In particular, it's impossible that they know many of his spells, his companions, or his tactics.


To add to my point, if the guy's strategy is based on lies and hiding his Gate, he's probably not going to reveal it to the Order of the Stick, just because THEY claim they're the Good guys.

You mean it's impossible for Girard to contact the Order without revealing the Gate?



And Dorukan showed what leaving your stronghold to confront someone directly will do if they DON'T have your best intrests at heart...

Oh, so Girard is too afraid of the Order even to use Sending?

Sorry, but all your theories about why Girard should keep away from the Order seem very far-fetched to me.

[SoC175]

He knows paladins don't break oaths and remain paladins, Actually that's not the case. Paladins fall as soon as they willingly commit their very first evil act, they do not immediately fall for committing chaotic acts unless they overdo it and become non-lawful.

So while a paladin might dislike lying or breaking oaths, he won't fall for doing it rarely if he does it for good reasons.

[hamishspence]

That depends on whether "lying" "Betrayal" etc count as evil or not.

According to Defenders of the Faith (paladin and cleric sourcebook) lying, stealing, etc are forbidden to paladins because they are evil.

BoVD equivocates over lying, saying its not evil in itself, but its so morally risky, that paladins are forbidden to do it anyway.

OoTS seems to go with "lying is a breach of the code, but not a gross breach" in War & XPs- so it doesn't cause an instant fall.

[Charity322]

Where did Blackwing go when V turned into a pink and white badger? It's like he just became assimilated into the badger form. XD

[Tyrneadlues Dre]

Don't you love it when Rich devotes an entire strip just to putting forum debates to rest?

He says he doesn't do things in his comic because of what others say. He must have decided to do that anyway.

[Optimystik]

Oh, so Girard is too afraid of the Order even to use Sending?

Sorry, but all your theories about why Girard should keep away from the Order seem very far-fetched to me.

I'll add to this - in SoD, Dorukan was quite willing to communicate with Xykon via sending or something similar before being provoked into coming out.

[salinan]

So he sees a group of people who are clearly not Soon Kim or any of his paladins and he doesn't choose to investigate further? I mean, I don't have a particularly high opinion of Girard's judgement, but even I don't think he's that much of an idiot.
Look at it from Girard's point of view, assuming he's still alive.

Over a period of time, he gets notification of Lirian's Gate, then Dorukan's Gate, then Soon's gate being destroyed. After another interval, his trap in the desert is triggered by an adventuring group.

What's he to think at that point? He must have been getting progressively more worried as time went on. He seems slightly paranoid at least, which won't help. And for all he knows, the people who just triggered his trap could be the very people who destroyed all the other gates. I can quite imagine he'd be very cautious about contacting them. As for any message the OotS try to send him? Given what he does for a living, he's predisposed towards thinking of deception, so there's no guarantee that he'd take it at face value.

How do you get an epic illusionist to trust that you're there to help?

[Degnared]

And for all he knows, the people who just triggered his trap could be the very people who destroyed all the other gates.

And as it turns out, they did sort of destroy Dorukan's Gate, and had an indirect hand in Soon's Gate.

[Harbajar]

*hangs off cliff and waits* Suspense plus!!:smallbiggrin:

[JonestheSpy]

I doubt this strip was really all that much about forum speculation. I seem to recall reading that RB avoids most such threads because he specifically doesn't want his writing influenced by trying to second-guess the speculators, and more to the point the strip is going to be gaining new readers all the time who never see those discussions, so writing in response ot what people post is a Bad Idea in general.

Anyway, it's completely logical that the OotS would be doing their best to figure out what Girard is up to, just like the fans.

All that being said, I can't resist pointing out that my own little theory (repeated here by a copule of folks) is still unslapped-down. Not saying I'm sure it's right, but still within the realm of the possible:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136499

[HealthKit]

Don't you love it when Rich devotes an entire strip just to putting forum debates to rest?

Oh yeah...
:smallsigh:

[Blaznak]

New Best T-Shirt Slogan:

Ok, so now do we search the rest of the desert.

Too funny!

[Hatman]

if they're stuck in the sand trap does that mean that an oasis-y place (the green) has the goal in it?

[Dancing_Fox]

Anyways, But I too am glad to see the most active of the forumites get shot down by the PCs themselves. I just wonder what song that Elan will sing? "You Fail?" :smalltongue:

To quote an aphorism on the notion that "This comic addressess the forum", and that is:


Correlation does not imply causation

As an idea, it is possible that the preceding comics were purely to lead the forum into speculation exactly along the lines that could then be addressed by this comic. In other words, people have been played. It looks like the comic is addressing concerns raised in the forum, but that is only because the forum was guided to raise those concerns in the first place, by co-incidentally, the same person who wrote all of the comic strips.

Not arguing that is true, just raising it as the other side of the coin.

Personally, I'd have a bet of a bit of each. A long setup was needed to get to the reason to have the second montage joke, and why not kill two birds with one stone?

[Sewblon]

I am the only one who snickered when Haley said "Booby Trap"?

Cuz ...

you know ...

she's depicted as having really prominent ...

Trap-Finding skills. That couldn't have even sounded clever in your head.

[sgamer82]

Hey there, some-time lurker first-time poster.

Reading the newest comic and the forum posts regarding it made me think of something I thought might be worth posting.

I know most of the folks here and in the comic find it very odd that Girard expected (literally bet) on a Paladin of all people breaking a promise. Especially one he knew personally. But think about it, in all the comic's story, isn't there one Paladin who would have done exactly what Girard was accusing Soon of doing?

Miko Miyazaki frequently twisted events to suit whatever worldview she needed to justify her actions. This fact, combined with the idea expressed earlier in the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7616139&#post7616139) about Soon's final speech to Miko being from past experience makes me think that, once upon a time, Soon was just like Miko. Or, at least, was overzealous enough that Girard saw Soon the same way we and the Order of the Stick saw Miko. If so, then Girard would have felt, maybe even been, perfectly justified to take the actions he took. He wouldn't have known, or by that point perhaps even cared, if Soon "acknowledged that he was, in fact, wrong" and reformed that aspect of his personality.

[Kish]

I know most of the folks here and in the comic find it very odd that Girard expected (literally bet) on a Paladin of all people breaking a promise. Especially one he knew personally. But think about it, in all the comic's story, isn't there one Paladin who would have done exactly what Girard was accusing Soon of doing?

Shojo certainly didn't think so. He thought the paladins of the Sapphire Guard, especially Miko, would stick to the strict wording of the oath against all sense.

Beyond that, why are you trying to justify Girard's mistakes?

[Optimystik]

I don't see why "forum speculation" is a prerequisite of Rich addressing the whole "the Gate is really there!" angle. To me, expecting a double-bluff from an illusionist is a reasonable idea to occur to someone as canny as Roy, just as seeing through that same bluff wouldn't be difficult for a seasoned con artist like Haley.

[rewinn]

I don't see why "forum speculation" is a prerequisite of Rich addressing the whole "the Gate is really there!" angle. To me, expecting a double-bluff from an illusionist is a reasonable idea to occur to someone as canny as Roy, just as seeing through that same bluff wouldn't be difficult for a seasoned con artist like Haley.

Most of the ideas that would occur to forummembers here would also occur to OOTS since, after all, to us it's a hobby but to them it's life-and-death. Or something worse.
That couldn't have even sounded clever in your head.
Meh.
They can't all be winners.
I gotta save the A-list material for the PCs.

[Optimystik]

Most of the ideas that would occur to forummembers here would also occur to OOTS since, after all, to us it's a hobby but to them it's life-and-death. Or something worse.

Trust me when I say that most of our ideas thankfully never make it into the comic, never mind the notions of specific characters. :smalltongue:

[rewinn]

Originally Posted by rewinn
Most of the ideas that would occur to forummembers here would also occur to OOTS since, after all, to us it's a hobby but to them it's life-and-death. Or something worse.

Trust me when I say that most of our ideas thankfully never make it into the comic, never mind the notions of specific characters. :smalltongue:

Heh. Point duly noted! I should have said "most of the ideas that would pass Elan's Intelligence check and V's Wisdom check ..."

Although rumor has it Sabine follows the Crack Pairings thread.

[The MunchKING]

Yes, because those guys will certainly know nothing else about that lich apart from that he's an epic sorceror. In particular, it's impossible that they know many of his spells, his companions, or his tactics.

Without O-chul, you know they wouldn't. As everytime Xykon even tried, people died.




You mean it's impossible for Girard to contact the Order without revealing the Gate?

Illusions generally aren't 2-way communication.



Oh, so Girard is too afraid of the Order even to use Sending?

Sorry, but all your theories about why Girard should keep away from the Order seem very far-fetched to me.

Which is it? They are so bad-ass they could help fight Xykon, in which case he SHOULD fear them as much as Xykon, or they are creampuffs enough they couldn't pose a threat to Gerard if they tried, and then what would be the POINT of shattering his veil of secrecy and letting them in on it??

[Optimystik]

Which is it? They are so bad-ass they could help fight Xykon, in which case he SHOULD fear them as much as Xykon, or they are creampuffs enough they couldn't pose a threat to Gerard if they tried, and then what would be the POINT of shattering his veil of secrecy and letting them in on it??

That's rather a false dichotomy, don't you think? Even if the Order lacks the firepower to take on Xykon, if Girard sees their message he will at least know that they know something about the entity threatening the gates. He doesn't have to spill his guts to them to try collecting some information of his own.

[Kish]

Which is it? They are so bad-ass they could help fight Xykon, in which case he SHOULD fear them as much as Xykon, or they are creampuffs enough they couldn't pose a threat to Gerard if they tried, and then what would be the POINT of shattering his veil of secrecy and letting them in on it??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

[factotum]

Without O-chul, you know they wouldn't. As everytime Xykon even tried, people died.


How does Girard know that, exactly? Has he been reading back issues of the comic? I agree with Optimystik on this one--if he sees the message he should at least TRY to communicate with the Order to find out more about this threat. The fact he hasn't means he's either not capable of doing so or chooses not to do so--e.g. he's either dead, or will be dead as soon as Xykon finds his phylactery.

[sgamer82]

Shojo certainly didn't think so. He thought the paladins of the Sapphire Guard, especially Miko, would stick to the strict wording of the oath against all sense.

Beyond that, why are you trying to justify Girard's mistakes?Justify? No. See where Girard's coming from? Yes. I'm a natural-born Devil's Advocate.

Whether or not Soon would have obeyed his oath is beside the point, far as that goes. My thinking is that Girard saw Soon as Lawful Stupid enough to do anything, even break his word, in the name of the "Greater Good." This is precisely the kind of thing Miko did, and led to her striking down Shojo. Yes, it caused her to Fall, but it's not like that stopped her (or even occurred to her). Girard seemed to have been acting under the assumption that the same thing applied to Soon.

Also, whatever applies or doesn't to "most Paladins", Girard knew Soon the person as much as he knew Soon the Paladin. Even if he wasn't like Miko, per se, the opinion his party seemed to have of him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) was that he was obsessed with revenge. That in mind, Girard would still feel it likely for Soon to break his oath, using whatever "greater good" reason he could come up with as an excuse to put all the Gates under his "protection."

Finally, Shojo was only a child when Soon died, he would have known Soon primarily by reputation and by his side of the tale of the Snarl. The Paladins regarded Soon as a hero, whatever his faults might or might not have been. Granted, Shojo's probably the only person in Azure City the idea of Soon being duplicitous would have even occurred to, if only because of his own sneaky nature and the fact he was trying to circumvent those same rules himself. But would even Shojo expect the founder of the Sapphire Guard to indulge in deliberate deception as opposed to the overzealousness Girard implies?

[warrl]

Where's Google Maps when you need it?

Best I could do... (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=girard%27s+gate&sll=36.500000,-95.500000&sspn=47.000000,79.000000&ie=UTF8&start=10&hq=girard%27s+gate&hnear=&ll=40.111689,-95.537109&spn=45.337848,79.013672&z=4)


Edit: And Girard would never place a magic-nuke if there were a chance that the person standing there wasn't Soon himself.

I'll disagree. Assuming that the trigger was honest and that Soon Kim did in fact have a unique set of false coordinates: Anyone in that specific location and saying those specific words close together, by a very high probability, either (a) was sent by Soon Kim (or his heirs) in violation of the oath, and is thus someone Girard would not want to have in possession of the Gate, or (b) acquired the coordinates from Soon Kim (or his heirs) by violent or dishonest means, and is thus someone Girard would not want to have in possession of the Gate; and in either case, is actively looking for the Gate. Thus, blowing that person up is a reasonable action to guard the Gate.

Now if the coordinates are the same ones that all the other members of the Order of the Scribble have (correct or not) then it plausibly could be one of the other members. However it would still be a violation of the oath.

[Kish]

Also, whatever applies or doesn't to "most Paladins", Girard knew Soon the person as much as he knew Soon the Paladin.

Not at all, in other words?

What we know about Girard's judgment is that he hasn't been right about anything on-camera yet. That's the limit of what we know about his judgment. For some reason, you're starting from a position of Girard necessarily basing his judgment on something rational. If you presume a Girard ideologically blinded by his devotion to deception as a philosophy, unable to believe anyone would keep his word, you get a picture that fits what we know just as well as implausible tales of Soon behaving like someone who Fell as soon as she acted like what you're suggesting Soon would act like.

And I realized that I didn't address your basic assumption. I don't find it odd at all that Girard would bet on a paladin of all things breaking his promise. As Vaarsuvius might say, I find it to be entirely in keeping with what we know of him. There is a difference between judging Girard negatively and being surprised. As far as I've seen, the only people to who have indicated they find his actions odd are the ones who, for some reason, had a positive view of Girard in their minds before strip #695.

[sgamer82]

I had thought of Girard being unable to trust as a matter of principle. Though I'd thought of it more as just a factor in his thinking than a major part of it in itself. You're probably right there. That on top of Girard's personal loathing of Soon would definitely prompt him to make the moves he has. Actually, thinking like that, it makes it interesting that he apparently trusted Serini with the real coordinates (assuming those weren't a lie too). Then again, that turned out to be a bad judgment call too, didn't it?

I hadn't had much opinion of Girard one way or the other until he showed up in the desert. My main interest since has been the question Roy himself asked: What the hell happened between these people to make them turn against each other like this?

Still, that's no reason Soon Kim might not have once-upon-a-time had some Miko-like tendencies that he managed to grow out of before they turned into something catastrophic.

[Optimystik]

I had thought of Girard being unable to trust as a matter of principle. Though I'd thought of it more as just a factor in his thinking than a major part of it in itself. You're probably right there. That on top of Girard's personal loathing of Soon would definitely prompt him to make the moves he has. Actually, thinking like that, it makes it interesting that he apparently trusted Serini with the real coordinates (assuming those weren't a lie too). Then again, that turned out to be a bad judgment call too, didn't it?

It might not have been a matter of trusting Serini. Rogues have Sense Motive as a class skill, after all.

When Girard lied to Soon, Serini could have easily picked up on it. Shortly after Soon turns away, Serini would whisper something like: "All right, hot stuff, that was some smooth talking back there, but how about you tell me where the Gate really is?" A simple threat of exposing Girard's trickery would suffice to make him comply.

I'm not saying this scenario is likely - the fact that they made a bet (assuming that was the truth as well) implies some level of camaraderie - but it is a viable alternate hypothesis to the notion of "everybody fooling the paladin."

[Fearabbit]

What I don't understand is why nobody seems to see this as the first of the "endless cunning illusions" Girard supposedly made to hide the gate. (Nobody as in "none of the main characters" as well as "haven't seen a theory like that in the forums yet", although I might be mistaken on that part.)

I mean... he can assume that someone who seeks to destroy or misuse the gates would try to gather some information on the Scribble, and would probably find out about the grudge he had against Soon, especially if he got the coordinates from Soon somehow in the first place (by whatever means).
But no matter how thorough that person is, he probably wouldn't get to know the full story. Only the members of the Scribble would know about that. So he comes to that place and finds out that Girard was actually so full of hate that he wouldn't give Soon the correct coordinates. And probably wouldn't think it might be a bluff, because it fits into what he's heard about them.

My point is - all the arguments against a Double Bluff were based on the assumption that the Double Bluff would be against Soon and his paladins, and that they wouldn't fall for it, but instead search the area even more thoroughly. Well, maybe that was the whole point of it. Anyone else would fall for the bluff and leave, while those who might actually be there because they want to defend the gate would not give up so easily.

[Shale]

What I don't understand is why nobody seems to see this as the first of the "endless cunning illusions" Girard supposedly made to hide the gate. (Nobody as in "none of the main characters" as well as "haven't seen a theory like that in the forums yet", although I might be mistaken on that part.)

That's...exactly what Roy asked Haley about. He doesn't use the words "endless cunning illusions," but if the Gate is there, then obviously this is one of its defenses.

Anyway, Haley gives a good list of reasons why that would be a stupid thing to do - you're still giving out the coordinates to the Gate and then trusting that whoever comes looking will be fooled by the illusion, rather than redoubling their efforts - or they might just find the gate immediately with a good search/divination and never even notice the message.

[Fearabbit]

Yes, it is what Roy asked Haley about, and she explains why it wouldn't have worked on Soon and his paladins. She doesn't explain why it wouldn't work on potential foes.

And I don't see the problem with giving out the coordinates - he said he gave the real coordinates to Serini anyway, and I guess he couldn't assume that she'd be better at hiding them from their foes than Soon, even if he didn't like that guy (and he'd be be right not to assume that, given that Serini's coordinates are in the hands of Xykon right now).
I mean, nobody even assumed that the coordinates could be wrong before they got Girard's message, so why should it now suddenly be such a bad idea to give Soon the real coordinates?
Also think about this: If they had arrived at the spot and there hadn't been the hidden message, they would have searched VERY thoroughly. Now, they're not so sure anymore. Seems like a good trick to me.

Anyway, I don't really think that the comic will go into that direction, but it seemed odd to me that everyone took that part of the message for granted.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Okay, just a quick line of thought that occurred to me while reading another thread ....

If Girard hates Soon, then why should he tell the paladin that the correct location of the Gate can be found in Serini's diary? I mean, if Soon had Fallen and come for the Gate, then he wouldn't think twice about going for the halfling and getting the information from her, one way or another. :smallconfused:

On the other hand, if Girard doesn't hate Soon, and the whole thing is a big bluff, then he figures that Soon is trustworthy actually -- so why not give him the actual location of the Gate? :smallconfused:

So either way, it doesn't make sense.

- Either he doesn't want Soon to find the Gate, in which case, why tell him exactly where he can find the location, by reading Serini's diary?

- Or he doesn't mind if Soon finds the Gate, in which case, why not just tell him where the dang thing is?

Something here doesn't seem to compute. :smallannoyed: Either there's a REALLY labyrinthine explanation for this, or it's one heck of a big plot hole.

Any thoughts?

[Kish]

Okay, just a quick line of thought that occurred to me while reading another thread ....

If Girard hates Soon, then why should he tell the paladin that the correct location of the Gate can be found in Serini's diary? I mean, if Soon had Fallen and come for the Gate, then he wouldn't think twice about going for the halfling and getting the information from her, one way or another. :smallconfused:

On the other hand, if Girard doesn't hate Soon, and the whole thing is a big bluff, then he figures that Soon is trustworthy actually -- so why not give him the actual location of the Gate? :smallconfused:

So either way, it doesn't make sense.

- Either he doesn't want Soon to find the Gate, in which case, why tell him exactly where he can find the location, by reading Serini's diary?

- Or he doesn't mind if Soon finds the Gate, in which case, why not just tell him where the dang thing is?

Something here doesn't seem to compute. :smallannoyed: Either there's a REALLY labyrinthine explanation for this, or it's one heck of a big plot hole.

Any thoughts?
Or his idee-fixe tells him that Soon will show up, get blasted, probably die, if he somehow survives learn nothing he doesn't already know.

As I said in the other thread where you brought this up, "Girard is acting like an idiot" is a plot hole only if you start from the premise, "Girard is not an idiot," which is not a premise the comic has at any point given us.

[Kumo]

Okay, just a quick line of thought that occurred to me while reading another thread ....

If Girard hates Soon, then why should he tell the paladin that the correct location of the Gate can be found in Serini's diary? I mean, if Soon had Fallen and come for the Gate, then he wouldn't think twice about going for the halfling and getting the information from her, one way or another. :smallconfused:Except that Serini -as well as Girard and the others, as a matter of fact - would be prepared for a fallen paladin to come, for one thing, and she was epic level as well, with thousands of nasty monsters at her beck and call.

And technically, Soon wouldn't have broken his oath since he had not successfully interfered with the other gate.


On the other hand, if Girard doesn't hate Soon, and the whole thing is a big bluff, then he figures that Soon is trustworthy actually -- so why not give him the actual location of the Gate? :smallconfused:Or, he figured Soon WASN'T trustworthy, he DOES hate Soon, and he ISN'T bluffing.


So either way, it doesn't make sense.

- Either he doesn't want Soon to find the Gate, in which case, why tell him exactly where he can find the location, by reading Serini's diary?

To p*** him off. Girard doesn't like Soon, you may have noticed.


- Or he doesn't mind if Soon finds the Gate, in which case, why not just tell him where the dang thing is?

Something here doesn't seem to compute. :smallannoyed: Either there's a REALLY labyrinthine explanation for this, or it's one heck of a big plot hole.

Any thoughts?

There's one line of other thinking i've considered: Girard could have set this all up because he thought Soon was shook up about Kraagor's death more than he let on. In that case, Soon would eventually go to the gate to do one of two things:
1) Make amends with his comrades
2) Take control of the gates, vis-a-vis Girard's spoken theory

In the first case, Soon would allow the explosion to hit him, since he has shame for his actions but no fear of death, and Girard would have a hated enemy gone from the world.

In the second, everyone gets warned of a threat to the gates and Girard's a moron.

Either way.

[Morchaint]

stupid railroad montage.

[The MunchKING]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

The point of his Gate defense strategy was secrecy though. You can't have secrecy if you spill. It's not a False dilema it's part of the definition.

[The MunchKING]

How does Girard know that, exactly? Has he been reading back issues of the comic?

Actually my argument was that he DOESN'T know they had a near-epic paladin working for them to tank all his spells, so as far as he could tell there should be no way FOR them to know much more than he could figure out by scrying...

[Shale]

But he also doesn't know that they're not epic themselves, or that the lich isn't, say, 21st level and survivable by mid-level adventurers, or that they're not defectors from his army who know all his secrets through espionage, or any of a dozen other ways for them to find out crucial information about Xykon's abilities and tactics.

Of course, judging from what we've seen of Girard, he might just assume what you said and go with it anyway.

[sgamer82]

If Girard hates Soon, then why should he tell the paladin that the correct location of the Gate can be found in Serini's diary?A small point: Girard never said the coordinates could be found in Serini's diary. He only said that Serini had the coordinates. A small difference, but one that meant Soon would have had to go to her, personally, for any further information. For all she seemed the reasonable one of the group, there's no guarantee she would have given anything to Soon. On the other hand, on the off-chance it wasn't Soon, it lets whoever was seeking out the Gates know where to go next.

That can be either a very good or very stupid move, depending on who was doing the looking (and given Girard's track record I can imagine most feeling the latter). Either way, whether the person after the Gates had a legitimate reason or not for seeking them, they'd likely have to go through Serini's epic monster dungeon before they could get anything more.

[Optimystik]

The point of his Gate defense strategy was secrecy though. You can't have secrecy if you spill. It's not a False dilema it's part of the definition.

You are still propagating the false dilemma. Contacting the Order and spilling his guts are two different activities, and one does not necessarily require the other.

[Big Hungry Joe]

We must be pretty stretched for material to continue the story, when we get, in place of a real strip, a re-hashed forum discussion. I'd rather see Team Peregrine or the Azurites or Team Evil or the Linear Guild something else in the meantime if this part of the story is destined to come to a slow resolution.

I'd like to see Team Peregrine again as well. What with all of Xykon's minions down in the sewers etc looking for his phylactery, they might be able to do some real damage or get another look at the contents of that rift.

[rewinn]

I'd like to see Team Peregrine again as well. What with all of Xykon's minions down in the sewers etc looking for his phylactery, they might be able to do some real damage or get another look at the contents of that rift.

Definitely. TP gives us several new an potentially interesting characters to develop, not to mention Thanh and the resistance. If he so chose, The Giant could devote half a book to the Search For The Phylactery: 10,000 goblins in a sewer versus Team Peregrine and the Resistance, each searching while trying to knock each other off. The good guys have to make staying out of Xykon's way top priority but there's a lot of potential for skulduggery and so forth ....

A lot may depend on whether Xykon blocks the exits from the sewer to the sea within a couple of rounds of losing the phylactery. No doubt X or Redcloak will think of it, and it'd take just a few spells, or a few dozen corpses.

All this could go on while OOTS fruitlessly combs the desert.

[ScottishDragon]

Definitely. TP gives us several new an potentially interesting characters to develop, not to mention Thanh and the resistance. If he so chose, The Giant could devote half a book to the Search For The Phylactery: 10,000 goblins in a sewer versus Team Peregrine and the Resistance, each searching while trying to knock each other off. The good guys have to make staying out of Xykon's way top priority but there's a lot of potential for skulduggery and so forth ....

A lot may depend on whether Xykon blocks the exits from the sewer to the sea within a couple of rounds of losing the phylactery. No doubt X or Redcloak will think of it, and it'd take just a few spells, or a few dozen corpses.

All this could go on while OOTS fruitlessly combs the desert.

The linear guild would have to be involved in this.

[Kumo]

Maybe Girard set up an illusion at that exact point in the desert that would run whoever goes into it through a scenario that sends them AWAY from that spot, whatever the particular scenario might be, or if there isn't one that would send them away and never bring them back, simply keep them searching what they believe is the right area, but just appears to be any other section of the desert.

After all, we don't know what Girard has placed around his gates besides illusions, if anything. It's possible he believed the only 'wall' he would need would be the illusions themselves and his own fighting prowess, in which case they ARE just walking around a section of desert like any other, except the gate, which Girard could keep them away from by actively changing the illusion in small, subtle ways.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Definitely. TP gives us several new an potentially interesting characters to develop, not to mention Thanh and the resistance. If he so chose, The Giant could devote half a book to the Search For The Phylactery: 10,000 goblins in a sewer versus Team Peregrine and the Resistance, each searching while trying to knock each other off. The good guys have to make staying out of Xykon's way top priority but there's a lot of potential for skulduggery and so forth ....

A lot may depend on whether Xykon blocks the exits from the sewer to the sea within a couple of rounds of losing the phylactery. No doubt X or Redcloak will think of it, and it'd take just a few spells, or a few dozen corpses.

All this could go on while OOTS fruitlessly combs the desert.

I would love to see this as a story arc, especially since the whole desert sequence has thus far left me cold.

[Selene]

William of Ockham says, "Maybe Girard is just a dumbass."

[Scarlet Knight]

:smallbiggrin:

[martinkou]

William of Ockham says, "Maybe Girard is just a dumbass."

Maybe he's a Sorcerer/Ranger gish who doesn't really need to have high int and high wis to be effective, and thus he acts like Belkar with high level spells.

[rewinn]

Maybe he's a Sorcerer/Ranger gish who doesn't really need to have high int and high wis to be effective, and thus he acts like Belkar with high level spells.

Isn't that just a longer way of saying:

"... Girard is just a dumbass.":smalltongue:

[denthor]

Haley says her father was a 1st edition thief (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html) Not mention that her father was clearly a member of the thieves guild. It must be in the bonus comics of Don't split the Party But Haley's father was sent away by the Half orc leader of the guild because he was to popular.

So at best Girard is her grandfather.

[Optimystik]

William of Ockham says, "Maybe Girard is just a dumbass."

And a keen razor he possesses, aye.

[Selene]

And a keen razor he possesses, aye.

/nod. I see you know him.

[Paseo H]

Just an aside comment...

I was just watching the most recent episode of Naruto Shippuden, and it started out with a searching montage...and the first thing I thought of was OOTS. :p

[SaintRidley]

I had a dream that we got three updates today and apparently they were rather large updates. O-Chul apparently was in Azure city and had taken out Redcloak and disguised himself as Redcloak so he could foil Xykon's plans from the inside while learning more about the enemy.

He ended up going kind of insane, proclaiming his hatred of humans when Team Evil showed up near the Order on their way to Girard's Gate, and somehow ended up sleeping with Haley. Elan saw them and was muttering to himself about revenge or somesuch when I woke up. By this point O-Chul was totally lost in the idea of being Redcloak.


It was weird.

[Optimystik]

Just an aside comment...

I was just watching the most recent episode of Naruto Shippuden, and it started out with a searching montage...and the first thing I thought of was OOTS. :p

Naruto and OotS have a great deal in common (read: filler :smalltongue:)

[TheBlackShadow]

Hmm, Durkon says towards the end of the strip that he's going to disarm the trap. Assuming that the trap resets, what would happen if they were to go up to the inactive spell and use a slightly different set of key words, switching "Soon" out for "Lirian", "Dorukan", or "Serini"?

[Kish]

If it resets? Well, first, I don't think Durkon's Greater Dispelling will be enough to dispel it, considering their relative levels. Then, if it is, I expect the trap to simply cease to exist, not be reset (indeed, it may have reset already, which is why Durkon's trying to dispel it so they can't set it off again). If they did switch the words that way, and the trap was reset, though...

Probably the trap would rant at Soon and go off again. Soon talking about Serini is at least as likely as him speaking of himself in the third person, after all.

[Dr Happypills]

He managed to dispel Xykon's magic, right? The Greater Invisibility spell he cast on the undead dragon. I wouldn't be that surprised if Durkon dispelled Girard's explosion.

[Lissou]

I had a dream [...] It was weird.

Thanks for sharing. That sounds like the kind of dreams I have regularly, except yours makes a bit more sense.
You should write a fanfic out of it. I'm sure the crack pairing thread would like your "O-Chul disgused as Redcloak / Haley" slash.

[factotum]

He managed to dispel Xykon's magic, right? The Greater Invisibility spell he cast on the undead dragon. I wouldn't be that surprised if Durkon dispelled Girard's explosion.

Technically, according to the rules he shouldn't have been ABLE to dispel Xykon's Greater Invisibility, if Durkon and Xykon are at the level we think they are; Power of Plot was lending him a hand there.

[Sewblon]

Is it me, or has this comic been delivering more exposition than usual since they found the illusion?

[Fearabbit]

Is it me, or has this comic been delivering more exposition than usual since they found the illusion?

Does that surprise you? It's a situation that invites us to make our own assumptions. And I can't recall a similar situation in any of the comics before; but I also read through them in almost one go, and whenever there was a cliffhanger I could simply read on instead of having to wait several days.

However, what surprises me about all this discussion is that so many people here simply believe what they see. Which is Girard behaving like a dumbass. No matter how much we know about his character or the tension between him and Soon - plotwise, it would be extremely lame if he was just a narrow-minded dumbass.

[Hurkyl]

However, what surprises me about all this discussion is that so many people here simply believe what they see.
Well, it is what we have the most evidence for. :smallwink:

(I agree that some people have been far more confident in that belief than they should be)


it would be extremely lame if he was just a narrow-minded dumbass.
Really? Miko turned out rather well, despite being in that boat. This brand of Chaotic is due for some screen-time.

[Kish]

No matter how much we know about his character or the tension between him and Soon - plotwise, it would be extremely lame if he was just a narrow-minded dumbass.
Like Hurkyl, I disagree with this.

Indeed, as surprised as you would apparently be if Girard turned out to really be as stupid as he looks, I would be equally surprised and, at least initially, annoyed if the comic played him as any less ideologically blinded than the Sapphire Guard. Now that I've seen what he does, I'm surprised I didn't anticipate him coming off badly a long time ago. Aside from Rich not wanting the Order to ever be in the position of having an NPC patron whose power compares to Xykon's own, the primary thing we were told about Girard way back when the Order of the Scribble was introduced is that he thinks deception is the most powerful force in the world; what in that says "healthy and intelligent worldview" to you?

[Fearabbit]

I think most of what I'm saying is based on the fact that he was introduced as a master of deception and illusion. If a character is described in this way, it seems like a guarantee for lots of twists and turns in the plot concerning him. I simply don't expect what we've seen of him so far to be all there is.
That's why I'm saying that if he, in fact, was nothing but the narrow-minded idiot we've seen in the first three strips that featured him (not counting the crayon drawings), he would be a great disappointment.

Miko was... different, I guess. She (seemingly) changed all the time, from a dark, mysterious and merciless hunter to a annoyingly lawful paladin to an obsessed lawful paladin. Only then did we get to know that this is actually her primary trait (Hinjo explains why SHE always gets sent to missions far away from home).
Besides, she was the first paladin we encountered in the story. It made sense for her to kind of fit the class description, with an added annoyance factor to further parodize those incarnations of lawfulness. Paladins we met later were much more diverse.
Girard is as of now "yet another Chaotic character" - we've experienced so many archetypes of Chaotic characters by now that I don't really see the point of showing one that is blinded by his Chaotic mistrust of Lawful characters. At least, I don't see it if that is all there is.

Roy also kind of agrees with this - he mentions twice that it's strange that Girard seems to hate Soon that much.
In any case, we'll see how it turns out. I just wanted to say that I still believe there will be some cool twists in that story arc :smallsmile:

[Hurkyl]

That's why I'm saying that if he, in fact, was nothing but the narrow-minded idiot we've seen in the first three strips that featured him (not counting the crayon drawings), he would be a great disappointment.
I expect, whatever Girard turns out to be, "narrow-minded idiot" is going to be a part of it.

Since you were railing against people who "believe what they see", I had assumed you were trying to argue that it would be lame if Girard, in fact, did turn out to be a narrow-minded idiot -- I didn't realize what you really meant. Sorry 'bout that.

Is there anyone in the thread who thinks there is nothing else to Girard? I thought the argument was just between people who assert that Girard is not a narrow-minded idiot and those who assert that all available evidence says that he really is.

P.S.: I don't expect to be disappointed by the Giant's writing, even if there is nothing else to Girard. :smallsmile:

[factotum]

I don't think ANY of the Order of the Scribble can lay claim to being perfect. If Girard actually turned out to be a perfect character who'd anticipated every possible contingency, which some of the Girardophiles seem to believe, I'd consider that to be weak writing. Good characters are never perfect, and I think Girard's imperfection is that he is TOO convinced of the power of deception--so convinced, in fact, that he doesn't believe anybody is ever truthful!

[CrimsonAngel]

I wouldn't mind seeing what Team Peregrine is up to.

[Sewblon]

Does that surprise you? It's a situation that invites us to make our own assumptions. And I can't recall a similar situation in any of the comics before; but I also read through them in almost one go, and whenever there was a cliffhanger I could simply read on instead of having to wait several days.

However, what surprises me about all this discussion is that so many people here simply believe what they see. Which is Girard behaving like a dumbass. No matter how much we know about his character or the tension between him and Soon - plotwise, it would be extremely lame if he was just a narrow-minded dumbass.

I see how it is warranted, but something about how things have been unfolding since they found the illusion that I can't put my finger on seems off.

[ShippoWildheart]

I don't think ANY of the Order of the Scribble can lay claim to being perfect. If Girard actually turned out to be a perfect character who'd anticipated every possible contingency, which some of the Girardophiles seem to believe, I'd consider that to be weak writing. Good characters are never perfect, and I think Girard's imperfection is that he is TOO convinced of the power of deception--so convinced, in fact, that he doesn't believe anybody is ever truthful!

That's what I got from him too. Paranoia got to him to the point where it wasn't a strength, but a weakness/flaw.

[Selene]

I think it's refreshing that he's a jackass. Sometimes you end up with a jackass in your party. Other times you end up with a chaotic evil halfling. All things being equal, I'd rather have Belkar in my party, but still.