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Overshee
2010-01-02, 03:57 PM
Could somebody help me test out characters to illustrate a point?

I am trying to prove that a wizard is more powerful than a tier 3 class, even at low levels. I wanna do a Wiz5 vs PsyWar5 test, and then a Wiz5 vs gestalt'd build.

I'd like to do it a bit more freeform over IM. My AIM handle is ThePilgrimSays

Thanks!

awa
2010-01-02, 04:14 PM
do you mean a non gestal level 5 wizard vrs a gestalt level 5 tier 3 class?

Stormlock
2010-01-02, 04:19 PM
I abhor IM but Wizards are pretty vastly broken to begin with. Fly alone should shut down anyone without considerable ranged abilities. True Strike + Scorching Rays/Acid Arrows for easy kills. Ghoultouch + Glitterdust for save or die against 2 sperate saves. (Blind may as well be dead at that level.)

Overshee
2010-01-02, 04:36 PM
do you mean a non gestal level 5 wizard vrs a gestalt level 5 tier 3 class?

Yes


I abhor IM but Wizards are pretty vastly broken to begin with. Fly alone should shut down anyone without considerable ranged abilities. True Strike + Scorching Rays/Acid Arrows for easy kills. Ghoultouch + Glitterdust for save or die against 2 sperate saves. (Blind may as well be dead at that level.)

This is what I'm trying to impress upon our DM.

awa
2010-01-02, 05:01 PM
well in my experience level 5 wizards are powerful sure but at that level they can run out of spells sure fly lets you basically avoid an encounter assuming your not underground or in a building but its minutes per level so its good for only one encounter. If your doing several encounters in a single day you will run out of useful spells very quickly with out non casters backing you up.

Olo Demonsbane
2010-01-02, 05:08 PM
I'll do it, playing either the wizard or the tier 3 guys.

EDIT: Preferably the Tier 3 guys.

Stormlock
2010-01-02, 05:26 PM
well in my experience level 5 wizards are powerful sure but at that level they can run out of spells sure fly lets you basically avoid an encounter assuming your not underground or in a building but its minutes per level so its good for only one encounter. If your doing several encounters in a single day you will run out of useful spells very quickly with out non casters backing you up.

Encounters can be ended very quickly while flying, especially as a wizard. Unlike overland flight, Fly lets you hover. I.E. Rain death from above even in relatively tight spaces. Unless you're facing foes with dispel magic or enchanted arrows, there's often little reason to give them more than 50 minutes to live. If they can't break your concentration, a single Summon Swarm spell can kill pretty much any number of fleshy things swinging weapons around.

awa
2010-01-02, 05:29 PM
what im saying is as a low level wizard sure you can rain death on one encounter but do you have the spells to do it again in an hour when you fight the next batch? How about the fight after that? at low level you cant afford to spam scrolls yet and you have a lot less spells.

Eloel
2010-01-02, 05:31 PM
tier3 you say?

Warmage/Warblade gestalt will beat a Wizard at that level, and quite humiliatingly too

awa
2010-01-02, 05:39 PM
yeah at level 5 a war mage could end a fight with a wizard just by going first
sudden empowered, sudden maximized is going to be over 22 damage on a save the wizards would need max hit points and a decent con score to survive.

Overshee
2010-01-02, 05:41 PM
tier3 you say?

Warmage/Warblade gestalt will beat a Wizard at that level, and quite humiliatingly too

Well I am advocating for no casters as part of the gestalt (although I wanna play a PsyWar//Monk, so maybe thats a little hypocritical [but come on, it's monk!])

Stormlock
2010-01-02, 05:42 PM
what im saying is as a low level wizard sure you can rain death on one encounter but do you have the spells to do it again in an hour when you fight the next batch? How about the fight after that? at low level you cant afford to spam scrolls yet and you have a lot less spells.

Why wait an hour? I can think of few circumstances that involve repeated planned encounters more than an hour apart. If the badguys are all in a dungeon, clear it within an hour. If they're going to give you over an hour to prepare anyways, loot and smash their stuff while they're waiting for your buffs to wear off.

And no need to spam scrolls. Mundane equipment and low level spells do just fine. Burn through simple doors with flasks of acid. Smokesticks to replace invisibility. Tanglefootbags replace Web. These are poor substitutes, but they're really all you need to back you up when you're already flying.

awa
2010-01-02, 05:46 PM
but theirs nothing to stop a non caster from using those either and just becuase some sessions allow you to blow through the whole thing in an hour does not mean they all will. besides in the dungeons example rushing through as fast as you can is an excellent way to get killed by a trap and in a dungeon you often cant fly high enough to avoid counter attacks

Zaydos
2010-01-02, 05:48 PM
Why wait an hour? Fly only lasts 5 minutes at level 5...

This means that if there is a fair bit of space between encounters, you stop to get your loot, etc, fly is in danger of wearing off after 2 or 3 encounters. Of course you could cast it again, but that's both your highest level spells unless you're a specialist. Now a focused transmuter could keep up fly for 15 minutes and still have other spells, but that means less of the good battle ending low-level conjuration spells (does pay off with polymorph and high level battle winning transmutation spells).

So where is 50 minutes/an hour coming from?

Edit: I've never seen a dungeon ran where there wasn't at least 1 room in which a monster could reach the ceiling with its attack. Not to say there aren't any but just my personal experience (as a DM I always make sure to put one in; although not every room).

awa
2010-01-02, 05:50 PM
random number picked off the top of my head that is more then 10 min

Temotei
2010-01-02, 05:53 PM
Why wait an hour? I can think of few circumstances that involve repeated planned encounters more than an hour apart. If the badguys are all in a dungeon, clear it within an hour. If they're going to give you over an hour to prepare anyways, loot and smash their stuff while they're waiting for your buffs to wear off.

And no need to spam scrolls. Mundane equipment and low level spells do just fine. Burn through simple doors with flasks of acid. Smokesticks to replace invisibility. Tanglefootbags replace Web. These are poor substitutes, but they're really all you need to back you up when you're already flying.

Tanglefoot bags are awesome.