SRD conflict about weight of mithral chain shirt

[taltamir]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#mithralShirt

Mithral Shirt
This extremely light chain shirt is made of very fine mithral links. Speed while wearing a mithral shirt is 30 feet for Medium creatures, or 20 feet for Small. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 10%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +6, and no armor check penalty. It is considered light armor and weighs 10 pounds.

No aura (nonmagical); Price 1,100 gp.

so, specifically named, this item weighs 10lbs.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm
Chain shirt 100 gp 4 4 -2 20% 30 ft. 20 ft. 25 lb.
ok, so it weighs 25 lbs for the base item.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialmaterials.htm
Mithral
Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal that is lighter than iron but just as hard. When worked like steel, it becomes a wonderful material from which to create armor and is occasionally used for other items as well. Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonus is increased by 2, and armor check penalties are lessened by 3 (to a minimum of 0).

An item made from mithral weighs half as much as the same item made from other metals. In the case of weapons, this lighter weight does not change a weapon’s size category or the ease with which it can be wielded (whether it is light, one-handed, or two-handed). Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral. (A longsword can be a mithral weapon, while a scythe cannot be.)

Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.

Mithral has 30 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 15.

so it weighs half as much, shouldn't that mean it should weigh 12.5 lbs? does that mean I Should round it down to the nearest 5lbs for other armors?

[erikun]

Specific trumps general, so the specific item (Mithral Chain Shirt) is used over the general item (Mithral applied to the Chain Shirt).

Also technically, a Mithral Chain Shirt is a specific armor "preconstructed with exactly the qualities" mentioned in the text, so you couldn't add a +1 enchantment bonus to it. :smallwink:

[Temotei]

Specific trumps general, so the specific item (Mithral Chain Shirt) is used over the general item (Mithral applied to the Chain Shirt).

Also technically, a Mithral Chain Shirt is a specific armor "preconstructed with exactly the qualities" mentioned in the text, so you couldn't add a +1 enchantment bonus to it. :smallwink:

Yep. It's a specific armor, not a chain shirt made of mithral (well...technically, it is, but this one's special :smalltongue:).

[taltamir]

Specific trumps general, so the specific item (Mithral Chain Shirt) is used over the general item (Mithral applied to the Chain Shirt).

Also technically, a Mithral Chain Shirt is a specific armor "preconstructed with exactly the qualities" mentioned in the text, so you couldn't add a +1 enchantment bonus to it. :smallwink:

so if I wanted a mithral chain shirt that I can add a +1 enchantment to, I'd have to make it by applying the template to create an exactly identical armor in everything but weight, where it weighs 12.5 lbs instead of 10 lbs?

and why can't you further enchant a specific item?

[erikun]

Correct. Now, it doesn't make any sense as to why you cannot add a +1 to the Mithral Shirt, but the various specific weapons and armors weren't intended to have other magical abilities applied to them. Something like the Holy Avenger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#holyAvenger) is a good example why - what is the current enchantment bonus on that thing? What abilities does it currently have? Could I add another +3 (making it a total of +8 for a Paladin) and the Holy Demonbane properities to it?

As for the Mithral Shirt itself, it is called an Elven Mithral Shirt in the DMG and is supposed to be the results of specific elvensmithing to provide the same protection for slightly less weight. As a DM, I certainly wouldn't have a problem with allowing it to be enchanted, and I would think it rather silly to disallow an enchanted +1 Elven Mithral Shirt. However, that is my interpretation of the rules, and not all DMs would read it the same way.

[taltamir]

thanks for the clarification...
I will send this to my DM and ask him if I could.


So elfs, like they do at everything else, failed at making the shirt lighter?
They made it lighter, they failed at making it useful, by sacrificing enchantability for a -2.5 lbs to weight...

[deuxhero]

I would allow the holy advenger to have it's +5 rearranged (seriously, who uses a +5 weapon when a caster can greater magic weapon it up to that) and I'd definitely allow fixed cost (holy surge) stuff added to it.

[tyckspoon]

Correct. Now, it doesn't make any sense as to why you cannot add a +1 to the Mithral Shirt, but the various specific weapons and armors weren't intended to have other magical abilities applied to them. Something like the Holy Avenger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#holyAvenger) is a good example why - what is the current enchantment bonus on that thing? What abilities does it currently have? Could I add another +3 (making it a total of +8 for a Paladin) and the Holy Demonbane properities to it?


Specific items are only "usually" constructed with only those exact qualities. Nothing forbids modifying them in the DMG, and I recall some text in the Magic Item Compendium that specifically permits it as part of the clarifications and changes on what you can/can't do when customizing items. The tricky part is usually just trying to reverse-engineer the pricing so you can figure out what the charge for the unique properties was and whether it's meant to be a +enhancement equivalent or just added on as +gold cost.

For example, the Holy Avenger would be parsed as a +2 Cold Iron sword with the Holy Avenger property (when a Paladin wields this etc etc.) The cold iron sword costs 330 GP, making it +2 costs 10,000. That leaves 110,300 to be the cost of being a Holy Avenger, and since that price doesn't match any of the +equivalent price marks, it must be applied as a flat gold cost. So do whatever you want to that base +2 longsword, then pay 110k for Holy Avenger, and you have a +x (flaming shocking merciful whatever) Holy Avenger. Which is moderately pointless, as it's going to be wielded by a Paladin, and thanks to the wording of the ability the base powers of the weapon have no effect on what it does in a Paladin's hands- it's always a +5 Holy weapon that grants SR and lets you cast Dispel Magic.

[Thurbane]

I've seen it debated both ways in the Q&A by RAW threads about further enchanting specific weapons/armor/shields, and the general consensus seems to be that you can.

[herrhauptmann]

It's not in the SRD, but...
Living Chain (MIC) is a +1 chain that gives a +2 on the strength check to trip someone.
Sweeping Enchantment (MIC): +1 Cost, gives a +2 on strength check to trip someone.
So the living chain should have the cost of a +2 weapon, but it doesn't. It only costs about 4k.


OR:
You can take the Winged Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#wingedShield), remove the cost of the MW shield itself, as well as the +3 enhancement. Now you've got the cost of the 'Fly' spell on the shield.
Take that number over to the Celestial armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor), and remove it, now you've got the cost of the celestial armor without the 'Fly' spell. I forget the number, and don't really feel like doing the math again, but I'm sure the cost of the celestial armor without flight is less than that of a suit of mithral chainmail. In addition the the flightless celestial is superior to a mithral chainmail




I've seen it debated both ways in the Q&A by RAW threads about further enchanting specific weapons/armor/shields, and the general consensus seems to be that you can.

I forget which book it's listen in, but it does say somewhere that the specific armors can be improved further.