3.5 spiked chain build help

[retaliation08]

Ok so i am writing a new character for our campaign, and I want to use the spiked chain. the character must be level 5 with no flaws or level adjustments. I was hoping to use some ToB but its not necessary IMO.
The group will reach level 6 soon so take that into consideration. We do rotating dm and level slowly so I want something that will be fun as well as functionable from level 6 on. Semi-optimization is ok, but the group is fairly new and i dont want to overshadow anyone.

level 5

26 point buy

thanks in advance

[Glimbur]

Swordsage 5. Take EWP: Spiked Chain. Use Shadow Hand. That will work... remember that you have enough maneuvers known to not need to specialize in one discipline. Mountain Hammer from Stone Dragon, for example, is great for utility.

[HCL]

Assuming tome of battle is allowed you could use any of the classes really, they're great. Otherwise maybe something like

Human Barb3/Ftr 2

1: Wolf Lodge Berserker (Combat expertise if Unnapproachable east is not allowed)
Human: Extra Rage
Ftr1: Improved Trip
Ftr2: Power attack
3: EWP Spiked Chain

You could go goliath, orc, or deep dwarf instead if you are willing to skip power attack. Or you could go azurin and pick up Shape Soulmeld (Mauling Gauntlets) for an even higher trip modifiers.

[Thurbane]

The Wolf Totem Barbarian in UA get's Improved Trip as a bonus feat at 2nd level without needing Combat Expertise.

[HCL]

The Wolf Totem Barbarian in UA get's Improved Trip as a bonus feat at 2nd level without needing Combat Expertise.

Forgot about that. Good choice. I would still pick up Wolf Lodge berserker if it is allowed, +4 unnamed trip bonus all day is worth it.

[JKTrickster]

Well what are you looking to do with your character? Normally, a Spiked Chain is used for Lockdown builds and Tripping. Make sure you are clear with your DM first; some DMs find Lockdown and Tripping builds annoying and might get out of their way to give you trouble.

Since you want to use ToB, I think Fighter 2/Crusader 3 can be a really good character. This build functions primarily as a Lockdown and Tank build and is perfect for protecting your more vulnearble party members. Some essiential feats are Combate Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Tripping, and of course, EWP: Spiked Chain. DON'T get Weapon Finesse (it's a trap) and just pump Str and Dex for your stats first. Stances wise, you should definetly get Thicket of Blades which really helps. Also, you can look into Improved Disarm, Hold the Line, etc.

Lockdown builds are normally the best option to go for with Spiked Chain. Also, you can look into some of the Fighter Chain feats that are posted on this website under the Gaming Section, if your DM allows for homebrewing. At higher levels it basically becomes:
Opponent does something in your range-> You trip them->You Disarm them->You attack them. Rinse and Repeat.

For future feats, you could look for those that grant you extra AoOs (e.g. Robilar's Gambit) or those that help you do something with them (e.g. Stand Still). In fact, just take Stand Still as soon as you can, to deal with those you can't trip as well (normally larger creatures).

[retaliation08]

ok i was liking wolf totem barbarian for the improved trip + rage which is always nice. I was looking to go with the knockdown feat instead of stand still because i can almost garuantee 10 damage per hit, granting me the free trip attempt. would wolf totem barb 2/ crusader 3 work well? if so what stances and maneuvers? i still like the other tob classes but i have kind of committed to a certain character profile that synergizes well with crusader.
thanks for all the input so far!

[HCL]

ok i was liking wolf totem barbarian for the improved trip + rage which is always nice. I was looking to go with the knockdown feat instead of stand still because i can almost garuantee 10 damage per hit, granting me the free trip attempt. would wolf totem barb 2/ crusader 3 work well? if so what stances and maneuvers? i still like the other tob classes but i have kind of committed to a certain character profile that synergizes well with crusader.
thanks for all the input so far!

Knockdown may or may not be worth the feat (unless your DM rules that you also get the benefit of the followup attack after the trip, or that you cannot normally make trip attempts on AoOs). If you trip normally you make a touch attack first. This is easier to make than a regular melee attack. Then the monster is prone and you can do your bonus attack (at full bab, which is important when you get iteratives) and normal attack line up against the monster's prone ac. If you try to depend on knockdown it may be harder to land your attacks.

Also due to the wording of the feat your DM may force you to make a trip attempt when it is disadvantageous to you to do so (like lets say you are fighting a duergar, and his trip modifier is higher than yours).


Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target.

Overall I would say that there are better uses of your feat. I recommend using the whirling frenzy variant of rage (unearthed arcana) and swapping fast movement for pounce (Complete champion Lion totem variant). If you really want to move fast you can ride a horse.

I recommend just getting 2 levels of barbarian and then dropping out and either going for Warblade/Crusader or working your way towards a prestige class (Runescarred Berserker, Bear Warrior & Fist of the Forest, or Champion of Gwynnarff if they are allowed)

[retaliation08]

would it be worth it to take a level dip in favored soul to get proficiency with spiked chain through a deity as well as 3 spontaneous divine spells? would wis give me bonus spells in that case? would a vicous spiked chain be a good investment were i a crusader?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Vicious is seldom a good choice, you should get Sweeping and then Brutal Surge on it, and then Sudden Stunning from DMG2 if you want to buff it further. The purpose of a spiked chain is not to do damage, but to control the battlefield, and you want special properties which contribute to that.

Crusader is an excellent choice, especially considering Thicket of Blades. Anything more than Barbarian 2/ Crusader 18 would probably be overdoing it, and even that is enough to overshadow other characters if they play/build badly. Maybe dip into Exotic Weapon Master for Trip Attack to get another +2 to trip attempts, though taking Weapon Focus to qualify may be a bit of a waste.

Make the character a Human with the Jotunbrud feat from Races of Faerun. That gives you a size bonus as though you were large when it would be beneficial, so +4 to trip checks. Combined with Wolf Berserker and Improved Trip you'll have a +12 to trip before counting Strength bonuses or magic items. Extra Rage is also a good idea, otherwise you're stuck at 1/day. I'd skip the Lion spiritual totem for Pounce to still have a 30 ft. land speed in mithral full plate. Stone Power is especially good for a Crusader since you can use that to gain temporary HP to soak up your Steely Resolve damage pool.

Starting at level 5 you should have 9,000 gp for gear. I'd get +1 Breastplate, a +1 Spiked Chain, and Armbands of Might for sure. Get Sudden Stunning on the chain if you have a decent Cha score. Work on getting Sweeping on the chain, a +1 Animated heavy shield, and the typical array of ring of protection, cloak/vest of resistance, amulet of natural armor, belt of strength, etc. Also try to pick up something that allows you to fly, the most immediate choice will probably be Reins of Ascension and the best option would eventually be a Phoenix Cloak, both in MIC.

[Draz74]

would a vicous spiked chain be a good investment were i a crusader?

I like Vicious, for characters who have (and use) the Stone Power feat. If they're a Crusader, all the better.

I'm not sure it's an optimal way to go, but it certainly won't be terrible.

[retaliation08]

i am most likely going with wolf totem barb 2/ tob class 3 (most likely crusader). with 26 point buy i have to be strict with my stats. whats the best way to distribute them for a build like this? also with 9,000 in gold what magic items should i look into? the group has a swordsage a rogue and a duskblade already, soon will have a beguiler.

[HCL]

Vicious is seldom a good choice, you should get Sweeping and then Brutal Surge on it, and then Sudden Stunning from DMG2 if you want to buff it further. The purpose of a spiked chain is not to do damage, but to control the battlefield, and you want special properties which contribute to that.

Crusader is an excellent choice, especially considering Thicket of Blades. Anything more than Barbarian 2/ Crusader 18 would probably be overdoing it, and even that is enough to overshadow other characters if they play/build badly. Maybe dip into Exotic Weapon Master for Trip Attack to get another +2 to trip attempts, though taking Weapon Focus to qualify may be a bit of a waste.

Make the character a Human with the Jotunbrud feat from Races of Faerun. That gives you a size bonus as though you were large when it would be beneficial, so +4 to trip checks. Combined with Wolf Berserker and Improved Trip you'll have a +12 to trip before counting Strength bonuses or magic items. Extra Rage is also a good idea, otherwise you're stuck at 1/day. I'd skip the Lion spiritual totem for Pounce to still have a 30 ft. land speed in mithral full plate. Stone Power is especially good for a Crusader since you can use that to gain temporary HP to soak up your Steely Resolve damage pool.

Starting at level 5 you should have 9,000 gp for gear. I'd get +1 Breastplate, a +1 Spiked Chain, and Armbands of Might for sure. Get Sudden Stunning on the chain if you have a decent Cha score. Work on getting Sweeping on the chain, a +1 Animated heavy shield, and the typical array of ring of protection, cloak/vest of resistance, amulet of natural armor, belt of strength, etc. Also try to pick up something that allows you to fly, the most immediate choice will probably be Reins of Ascension and the best option would eventually be a Phoenix Cloak, both in MIC.

First off, you can only have one regional feat. Secondly, jotunbrud does not stack with enlarge person so I would skip it.

I would probably do 16 str, 14 dex 16 con assuming you are getting either wolf lodge berserker or improved trip as a bonus feat so you don't need int and you can get dex boosting items for more Aoos with combat reflexes (otherwise swap dex annd con)

[Os1ris09]

1. Exotic Weapon: Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise
2. Improved Trip
3. Knock-Down
4. Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain
6. Weapon Specialization: Spiked Chain, Frightful Presence (Draconomicon)
8. Melee Weapon Mastery: Piercing (PH2)
9. Greater Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain
10. Power Attack
12. Greater Weapon Specialization: Spiked Chain, Ability Focus: Frightful Presence
14. (Fighter feat)
15. Defensive Sweep (PH2)
16. (Fighter feat)
18. Weapon Supremacy: Spiked Chain, (open feat)
20. (Fighter feat)

that is the feat build I used for a spiked chain build using straight fighter. with that build anything you hit pretty much stays on the ground since you can AoO everytime they try to move and get up and as long as you do 10+ DMG they stay on the ground.

[Os1ris09]

1. Exotic Weapon: Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise
2. Improved Trip
3. Knock-Down
4. Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain
6. Weapon Specialization: Spiked Chain, Frightful Presence (Draconomicon)
8. Melee Weapon Mastery: Piercing (PH2)
9. Greater Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain
10. Power Attack
12. Greater Weapon Specialization: Spiked Chain, Ability Focus: Frightful Presence
14. (Fighter feat)
15. Defensive Sweep (PH2)
16. (Fighter feat)
18. Weapon Supremacy: Spiked Chain, (open feat)
20. (Fighter feat)

that is the feat build I used for a spiked chain build using straight fighter. with that build anything you hit pretty much stays on the ground since you can AoO everytime they try to move and get up and as long as you do 10+ DMG they stay on the ground.

that build though was when ToB was ruled out by my DM so other builds with those ToB classes could prove to be more effecient

[Runestar]

Must your spiked chain build actually involve tripping?

Else, you can consider this build.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871346/Tome_of_Battle:_Build_Compendium?post_id=338393982 #338393982

Replace spinning sword with spiked chain and you are good to go.:smallsmile:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Stone Power to Shards of Granite is always a fun thing. Ignoring DR/Hardness can be exceedingly handy. For example, using this feat, you can ignore the Tarrasque's DR30/epic.

I would also highly encourage taking the <gem> razor and <gem> nightmare blade chains. Resolving an attack as a touch attack, or using a Concentration check in place, is always good for making sure a hit lands... which means you can safely Power Attack to the fullest.

[Runestar]

gnoring DR/Hardness can be exceedingly handy. For example, using this feat, you can ignore the Tarrasque's DR30/epic.
Hardness =/= damage resistance.

You are thinking about the unstoppable onslaught option (though a minor quibble really, since both are accessible via the same feat). :smalltongue:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hardness =/= damage resistance.

You are thinking about the unstoppable onslaught option (though a minor quibble really, since both are accessible via the same feat). :smalltongue:

le sigh... Hardness is not DR, however both are negated by the same feat, which was what I was attempting to communicate without complicating matters further for the newbie.

Pedantry only confuses the ignorant

[Triaxx]

Not exactly helpful to the well informed either. As I see it, there's two options of how to go about Spiked Chains. Defensive and Offensive. Defensive has been well covered.

Offensive typically boils down to charge and attack. The problem with the charging barbarian is that he's probably already raging and thus needs all the HP he can get because he's -4 AC. My advice is not to charge anywhere. Run close, but not quite in range and let them come to you. Use 5' steps to advance towards them from around 20' away.

Human Barbarian 5
1:Power Attack, EWP:SpikedChain.
3: Combat Reflexes

Alternately:
Human Fighter 5
1: Power Attack, EWP, Combat Reflexes
2: Improved Initiative
3: Vexing Flanker
4: Cleave

Then pick up Lunging Strike at 6. Vexing Flanker is because you will at some point end up flanking for the Rogue and in the middle of the fight Cleave is always useful.

I did not suggest anything out of TOB because I have no experience. I've never needed it so I've never used it.

[Curmudgeon]

would it be worth it to take a level dip in favored soul to get proficiency with spiked chain through a deity as well as 3 spontaneous divine spells? Yes, although you'd probably be better off going full FS rather than dipping. Getting to level 8 lets you tank up with Divine Power. (By the way, the deity you need here is Kossuth.)

would wis give me bonus spells in that case?
Wrong stat. It's Charisma, not Wisdom, that gives FSs bonus spells.

[Thurbane]

Indeed. CHA determines bonus spells and maximum spell level; WIS determines only save DCs.