[3.5 ToB] Sunderd Veil - The Discipline of "Oops"

[Golden-Esque]

"Break their weapon, you break the warrior." The dogma of the Sundered Veil Discipline isn't particularly new knowledge; the art of sundering weapons and armor is present in even the most childish of combat. However, the martial adepts who practice the Sundered Veil discipline take these concepts one step further; "break the warrior, you win." As such, the abilities practiced by the Sundered Veil attempts all break or weaken an enemy's weapons, armor, or even the enemy themselves.

Naturally, the great Swordsage Reshar knew about the techniques of sundering, but he found the idea of going out of one's way to break bones, slice arteries, and even shatter the noble sword to be dishonorable, so he never allowed the scattered practitioners of this style to mingle and grow into a new martial arts discipline. Following his disappearance and the surge of the Shadow Tiger armies, however, virtually the entire world went into one giant conflict, and the thugs and rogues who utilized the arts of sundering sword and soul inevitably found each other and banded together into the dark conglomerate-discipline that is the Sundered Veil. While most believe the discipline's name steams from its notorious use of sundering attacks, scholars believe that the discipline's name comes from the veil that was torn from the eyes of the martial adepts who clung to the old ways and ignored the threat of the Shadow Tiger horde until it was too late.

The key skill associated with the Sundered Veil discipline is Disable Device, and the discipline's associated weapons are the club, handaxe, mace, pick, and warhammer. This martial discipline does not focus on specific and honed martial maneuvers as much as it does opportunistic fighting and calculated strikes, so the various strike maneuvers of the Sundered Veil discipline can be performed with either melee or ranged weapons. When using a melee weapon, the "Weapon Range" description on the maneuver is treated as Melee, and while using a ranged weapon, the "Weapon Range" description on the maneuver is equal to one range increment for the weapon (10 feet for thrown, 30 for bows, etc).

List of Maneuvers and Stances

1st Level Maneuvers and Stances
Crack Shot - Strike - Smash opposed creature's weapons or armor, reducing its effectiveness.
Dulling Skid - Counter - Weaken your foe's weapon after being struck in combat.
Mechanical Expertise - Stance - Disarm traps like a Rogue, bonus to AC against traps.
Eye for Destruction - Stance - Make Disable Device check to deal more damage to objects.

2nd Level Maneuvers and Stances
Chink Shot - Boost - Ignore Damage Reduction based on Disable Device.
Gut Shot - Boost - Attack target's torso, sundering their body.
Meddling Martial Artist - Counter - Muddle manifestation or spellcasting with a Disable Device check.
Rig the Flaws - Boost - Disable Device check allows you to increase armor's armor check penalty.

3rd Level Maneuvers and Stances
Crunching Blow - Strike - Crunch opposed creature's weapons or armor in itself, reducing its effectiveness.
Hallow No More - Strike - Destroy continuous magical effects with Disable Device.
Shatter the Forged - Stance - Make Disable Device check to deal heavy damage to Constructs.

4th Level Maneuvers and Stances
Mind Muddle - Strike - Strike the creature's mind, crippling them.
Rogue's Screwdriver - Strike - Drive your weapon into the creature, damaging their body.
Shield of Havoc - Boost - Replace your AC with a Disable Device check.

5th Level Maneuvers and Stances
Caving Assault - Strike - Heavily damage opposed creature's weapons or armor, reducing its effectiveness.
No Life, No Worries - Boost - Unleash hell on undead creatures.
Witch Halting - Counter - Disable a creature's supernatural abilities with Disable Device.

6th Level Maneuvers and Stances
Mechanic's Hustle - Stance - Gain a speed bonus and reach based on your ranks in Disable Device.
Rogue's Wrench - Strike - Drive your weapon into the creature, damaging their body.
Sacred No More - Strike - Destroy continuous magical effects with Disable Device.

7th Level Maneuvers and Stances
Brain Blender - Strike - Strike the creature's mind, crippling them.
Demolish Defenses - Strike - Greatly damage opposed creature's weapons or armor, reducing its effectiveness.

8th Level Maneuvers and Stances
No Survival - Counter - Place penalties on a creature that makes a saving throw.
Rogue's Drill - Strike - Drive your weapon into the creature, damaging their body.

9th Level Maneuvers and Stances
Trauma Llama - Strike - Strike wildly at your opponent, breaking everything imaginable.

[Golden-Esque]

Brain Blender
Sundered Veil 7
Prerequisite: Three Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Weapon Range
Target: One Creature
Duration: Instantaneous (See Text)
Saving Throw: Partial

You drive your weapon into the creature's head and mix it around a little bit, hoping to stirr up some confusing thoughts.

As part of this maneuver, make a Disable Device check against a target creature's AC. If your Disable Device check is higher, you deal normal weapon damage + 2d6 points of either Intelligence, Wisdom, or Chasima damage to the target creature (only one, but your choice which). In addition, that creature is Dazed for 1 round. The creature is entitled to a Fortitude saving throw (DC 17 + your Dexterity modifier) to halve the Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma damage (but not the weapon damage) and ignore the Dazed condition. This maneuver has no effect on creatures that are immune to critical hits or without discernable anatomies.

Caving Assault
Sundered Veil 5 (Strike)
Prerequisite: Two Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Weapon Range
Target:One creature
Duration: Instantaneous

You feign an attack, truly hoping to get a good strike at your foe's weapon.

This maneuver functions as Crack shot, except the maximum hardness penalty that can be applied as part of the Disable Device check is -15.

Chink Shot
Sundered Veil 2 (Boost)
Prerequisite: None
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous

With you discerning gaze, you quickly find all of the kinks and chinks in your opponent's armor.

For the remainder of the round this maneuver was activation on, your attacks ignore an amount of damage reduction (regardless of its source) equal to the number of ranks you have in Disable Device.

Crack Shot
Sundered Veil 1 (Strike)
Prerequisite: None.
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Weapon Range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous

You feign an attack, truly hoping to get a good strike at your foe's weapon.

As part of initiating this maneuver, make a melee or ranged attack against the target creature and designate either a primary or an offhand weapon or their armor or shield to be sundered. This attack is treated as a sunder attack, but it provokes no attacks of opportunity and your foe gets no opposed sunder attempt. If your attack is successful, make a Disable Device check (DC 10). For every 2 points over 10 your result is, the target creature's weapon has its hardness reduced by 1 (maximum -5 hardness). Following this hardness reduction, roll your weapon damage against the target creature's weapon normally.

Demolish Defenses
Sundered Veil 7 (Strike)
Prerequisite: Three Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Weapon Range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous

You feign an attack, truly hoping to get a good strike at your foe's weapon.

This maneuver functions as Crack shot, except the maximum hardness penalty that can be applied as part of the Disable Device check is -20.

Caving Assault
Sundered Veil 5 (Strike)
Prerequisite: Two Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Weapon Range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous

You feign an attack, truly hoping to get a good strike at your foe's weapon.

This maneuver functions as Crack shot, except the maximum hardness penalty that can be applied as part of the Disable Device check is -15.

Dulling Skid
Sundered Veil 1 (Counter)
Prerequisite: None
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Weapon Range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous

As the blades fly all around you, the right movements and defenses make sure that even blows that successfuly hit you come at a deep price.

You can initiate this maneuver after a creature that threatens you makes a melee attack against you. Regardless of successful or fail of the melee attack roll, after the attack has been confirmed as a hit or miss, the creature takes a -2 penalty per 4 ranks in Disable Device you possess on all future attack rolls with that weapon. This condition is permenant, but it can be repaired by paying 100 x the penalty you bestowed in gp. Natural weapons cannot be repaired by reforging them, but 2d4 days of rest fixes them naturally in most cases.

Eye for Destruction
Sundered Veil 1 (Counter)
Prerequisite: None
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

You quickly and efficently pin poin the weaknesses and flaws in your foe's equipment, allowing you to quickly dismantle and destroy it.

While you are in this stance, whenever you would deal damage to an object (such as a stone pillar, a chain, or a foe's weapons and armor) you can make a Disable Device check at will. If you succeed on the check (DC 10 + target object's hardness or damage reduction), you deal double damage to it if your attack is successful. This bonus does not apply to animated objects or any type of construct.

Gut Shot
Sundered Veil 3 (Boost)
Prerequisite: One Sundered Veil maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Weapon Range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous (See Text)
Saving Throw: Partial

You smash the creature's torso with a devestating blow, damaing vital organs and winding the creature.

For the rest of your turn after initiating this maneuver, the next attack you make has a chance of inflicting major damage to the creature. If your next melee or ranged attack is successful, the target creature takes normal weapon damage and becomes fatigued (exhausted if it was already fatigued) and nauseated for 1d4 rounds. A successful Fortitude saving throw ignores the fatigue and halves the duration of the nausea effect.


Hallow No More
Sundered Veil 3 (Strike)
Prerequisite: One Sundered Veil maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 Full-Round Action
Range: Touch
Target: Touched Creature or Object
Duration: Instantaneous

You meddle with the very fabric of the spells and the methods described to keep it in place until, finally, you shatter them.

As a full round action, you can attempt to dispel magic and psionic effects that remain in an area. This maneuver functions like a targeted dispel via the //[[[dispel magic]]]// spell, except that you must touch the object or creature to affect it and your your ranks in Disable Device are treated as your caster level (maximum 20).

Mechanic's Hustle
Sundered Veil 6 (Stance)
Prerequisites: Two Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

You pick up the pace so that you can "fix" as much as possible before there's no one left alive to play with.

While you are in this stance, you gain an enhancement bonus to your speed and to your reach based on your ranks in Disable Device. See the table below.

{table=head]Ranks in Disable Device | Speed Enhancement | Reach Enhancement
1 - 5 | + 5 ft. | _
6 - 10 | +10 ft. | _
11 - 15 | +15 ft. | +5 ft.
16 - 20 | +20 ft. | + 5 ft.[/table]

Mechanical Expertise
Sundered Veil 1 (Stance)
Prerequisite: None
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

Your immense knowledge of how to break and smash weapons applies itself nicely to the roguish field of traps and dangers.

While you are in this stance, you gain the Trapfinding ability (as a Rogue) and you gain a bonus to your AC on attacks made by traps equal to 1/4 of your Initiator level.

Meddling Martial Artist
Sundered Veil 2 (Counter)
Prerequisite: None
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Weapon range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous

Your knowledge of the ways of magic may be vague, but you know that a good jab to the gut or kick to the face fouls up most spellcasting well.

You can only initiate this maneuver when a creature you threaten attempts to cast a spell or manifest a power. Make your attack of opportunity normally, and if you deal damage to the creature (forcing it to make a Concentration check to maintain the spell), you can add 1/4 of your ranks in Disable Device to the DC to prevent the spell from fizzling. This maneuver cannot be activated if the creature does not provoke an attack of opportunity when it attempts to cast a spell or manifest a power.

Mind Muddle
Sundered Veil 4 (Strike)
Prerequisite: Two Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Weapon Range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous (See Text)

You drive your weapon into the creature's head and mix it around a little bit, hoping to stirr up some confusing thoughts.

As part of this maneuver, make a Disable Device check against a target creature's AC. If your Disable Device check is higher, you deal normal weapon damage + 1d6 points of either Intelligence, Wisdom, or Chasima damage to the target creature (only one, but your choice which). The creature is entitled to a Will saving throw (DC 14 + your Dexterity modifier) to halve the Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma damage (but not the weapon damage). This maneuver has no effect on creatures that are immune to critical hits or without discernable anatomies.

No Life, No Worries
Sundered Veil 5 (Strike)
Prerequisite: Two Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Weapon Range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous

What more is an undead then a squishy, unliving machine to take apart?

As part of this maneuver, make a Disable Device check against a target undead-type creature's AC. If your Disable Device check is higher, you deal normal weapon damage + bonus damage equal to your Disable Device check result. If you deal damage equal to half the undead creature's HP or more, it is instantly destroyed. A sentient undead is entitled to a Will save (DC 15 + your Dexterity modifier) halve the damage taken as a result of the Disable Device check by this maneuver (but not the normal weapon damage). If this damage is still equal to half of the sentient undead's HP or more, it is still instantly destroyed.

No Survival
Sundered Veil 8 (Counter)
Prerequisites: Three Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Immediate Action
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike the creature's ki, flooding it in all the wrong places to disrupt their movements and defenses.

You can initiate this maneuver when a creature you threaten attempts to make a saving throw (but before any result is rolled). Make a Disable Device check and increase the normal DC for the saving throw by 1/5 of the check's result (maximum equal to half your initiator level).

Rig the Flaws
Sundered Veil 2 (Boost)
Prerequisite: None
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Weapon Range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Negates

As you strike, you aim not for the creature, but for their possessions; knocking off straps and buckles, causing it to trip over itself.

After initiating this manever, select a target creature that you threaten. Until the end of the round, any melee attacks you make have the potential to limit the creature you strike's mobility. Each time a creature is successfully hit by your melee attack (even if you deal no damage), they must make a Reflex save (DC = 10 + 1/2 your initiator level). On a failed saving throw, the creature becomes immobilized for 1 round. Multiple attacks made in one round stack the immobilization penalty, so if a creature is struck 3 times and fail their Reflex save 3 times, they are immobilized for 3 rounds. A successful save prevents this condition, though weapon damage is still dealt normally.

Rogue's Drill
Sundered Veil 8 (Strike)
Prerequisites: Three Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Weapon range
Duration: Instantaneous (See Text)
Saving Throw: Half

As you plunge your weapon into the creature, you make sure to break as many bones and severe as many arties as possible.

As part of this maneuver, make a melee attack against the target creature. If you succeed, you deal normal melee damage +3d6 damage. In addition, the creature makes a Fortitude save (DC 18 + your Dexterity modifier). If they fail this saving throw, the creature takes 2d6 points of Constitution damage. A successful saving throw reduces this ability damage by half. This maneuver has no addition effect beyond normal weapon damage against creatures immune to precision damage or without discernable anatomies.

Rogue's Screwdriver
Sundered Veil 4 (Strike)
Prerequisites: Two Sundrered Veil maneuvers
Initation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Weapon range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous (See Text)
Saving Throw: Half

As you plunge your weapon into the creature, you make sure to break as many bones and severe as many arties as possible.

As part of this maneuver, make a melee attack against the target creature. If you succeed, you deal normal melee damage +1d6 damage. In addition, the creature makes a Fortitude save (DC 14 + your Dexterity modifier). If they fail this saving throw, the creature takes 1d6 points of Constitution damage. A successful saving throw reduces this ability damage by half. This maneuver has no addition effect beyond normal weapon damage against creatures immune to precision damage or without discernable anatomies.

Rogue's Wrench
Sundered Veil 6 (Strike)
Prerequisites: Two Sundrered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Weapon range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous (See Text)
Saving Throw: Half

As you plunge your weapon into the creature, you make sure to break as many bones and severe as many arties as possible.

As part of this maneuver, make a melee attack against the target creature. If you succeed, you deal normal melee damage +2d6 damage. In addition, the creature makes a Fortitude save (DC 16 + your Dexterity modifier). If they fail this saving throw, the creature takes 2d4 points of Constitution damage and their AC is reduced by 5. A successful saving throw reduces this ability damage and AC penalty by half. The AC penalty remains for as long as the Constitution damage does. This maneuver has no addition effect beyond normal weapon damage against creatures immune to precision damage or without discernable anatomies.

Sacred No More
Sundered Veil 6 (Strike)
Prerequisites: Two Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Touch
Target: Touched Creature or Object
Duration: Instantaneous

You meddle with the very fabric of the spells and the methods described to keep it in place until, finally, you shatter them.

This maneuver functions identically to the Hallowed No More maneuver, except that it can be performed as a standard action instead of a full-round action.

Shatter the Forged
Sundered Veil 3 (Stance)
Prerequisites: One Sundered Veil maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

Your special kind of havoc allows you to mess with machines and other types of constructs, pulling them apart like a living suit of armor.

While you are in this stance, as a standard action you can make a touch attack against a construct type creature that you threaten. If the attack fails, the effect ends. If you are successful, you deal no damage to the construct. Instead, you make a Disable Device check and deal 1d6 damage to the construct + 1d6 per 1/5 of your Disable Device result. If you deal more then half of the creature's HP in damage with this touch attack, it must make a Fortitude save (DC equal to the damage dealt) or crumble to bits, dying instantly. An adept can only affect a construct with this ability once every 24 hours.

Shield of Havoc
Sundered Veil 4 (Counter)
Prerequisites: Two Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Immediate Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous

You use your knowledge of objects and devices to prevent a near-fatal blow from accomplishing anything.

You can initiate this maneuver when a creature makes a melee or ranged attack against you. You can initiation this maneuver after the result has been determined, but before any damage dice are rolled. Make a Disable Device check and add 1/5 of the result to your AC. This maneuver cannot be used in response to a surprise attack or an attack you are not aware of.

Trauma Llama
Sundered Veil 9 (Strike)
Prerequisites: Four Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Standard
Range: Weapon range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Half

You set to work breaking the target creature's body until there's nothing left to smash.

As part of this maneuver, make a melee attack. If you succeed, you deal normal weapon damage, and the target creature must make a Fortitude save (DC 19 + your Dexterity modifier). If they fail the Fortitude save, the creature takes 1d6 points of Constitution for every 4 ranks in Disable Device you possess (maximum 5d6). A successful Fortitude save reduces this Constitution damage by half. In addition, for every 3 points of Constitution damage dealt by this strike, the creature takes 1 point of damage at the start of each round as wounding damage. Creatures that have indiscernible anatomies or that are immune to critical hits are not affected by this maneuver.

Witch Halting
Sundered Veil 5 (Counter)
Prerequisites: Two Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Immediate Action
Range: Weapon range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous

You effectively stop a creature from using its supernatural abilities through a variety of means.

You can initate this maneuver when a creature you threaten attempts to active a supernatural ability. Make a Disable Device check (DC 15 + creature's HD + appropriate ability modifier). If you succeed, the creature fails to activate its supernatural ability.

[Milskidasith]

Any discipline focused on sundering is going to annoy people, because breaking the loot is never a good thing. Let's see, though...


Brain Blender
Sundered Veil 7
Prerequisite: Three Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Weapon Range
Target: One Creature
Duration: Instantaneous (See Text)

You drive your weapon into the creature's head and mix it around a little bit, hoping to stirr up some confusing thoughts.

As part of this maneuver, make a Disable Device check against a target creature's AC. If your Disable Device check is higher, you deal 2d4 points of either Intelligence, Wisdom, or Chasima damage to the target creature (only one, but your choice which). In addition, that creature is Dazed for 1 round. This maneuver has no effect on creatures that are immune to critical hits or without discernable anatomies.

Not bad. Not sure of the ability damage in comparison to other abilities from other disciplines (2d4 seems low), but it should never miss the disable device check, so it's reasonable.


Caving Assault
Sundered Veil 5 (Strike)
Prerequisite: Two Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Weapon Range
Target:One creature
Duration: Instantaneous

You feign an attack, truly hoping to get a good strike at your foe's weapon.

This maneuver functions as Crack shot, except the maximum hardness penalty that can be applied as part of the Disable Device check is -15.


So you basically make a strike against a weapon with a (possible) bonus of 15 to damage. Not very impressive, and, again, sundering sucks for the party no matter what side they are on.


Chink Shot
Sundered Veil 2 (Boost)
Prerequisite: None
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous

With you discerning gaze, you quickly find all of the kinks and chinks in your opponent's armor.

After initiating this maneuver, make a Disable Device check. Your melee and ranged attacks ignore an amount of damage reduction equal to 1/5 of the check result (in this case, a natural 20 represents only a value of 20, though a natural 1 still fails the attempt instantly). This maneuver does not ignore DR/magic unless the adept is using magic weapons or DR/-. The damage reduction ignored cannot surpass the adept's initiator level.

This is useless... you can't use it against DR/-, and you can't use it against DR/magic unless your weapon is already magical (and thusly ignores DR/magic entirely). So... you get to ignore some DR/adamantine, I guess? Even then, aren't there stone mountain maneuvers that ignore DR entirely and do extra damage around this level?


Crack Shot
Sundered Veil 1 (Strike)
Prerequisite: None.
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Weapon Range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous

You feign an attack, truly hoping to get a good strike at your foe's weapon.

As part of initiating this maneuver, make a melee or ranged attack against the target creature and designate either a primary or an offhand weapon or their armor or shield to be sundered. This attack is treated as a sunder attack, but it provokes no attacks of opportunity and your foe gets no opposed sunder attempt. If your attack is successful, make a Disable Device check (DC 10). For every 2 points over 10 your result is, the target creature's weapon has its hardness reduced by 1 (maximum -5 hardness). Following this hardness reduction, roll your weapon damage against the target creature's weapon normally.


Again, it's just a possible +5 to damage against weapons for sundering, unless the hardness reduction is permanent.


Demolish Defenses
Sundered Veil 7 (Strike)
Prerequisite: Three Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Weapon Range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous

You feign an attack, truly hoping to get a good strike at your foe's weapon.

This maneuver functions as Crack shot, except the maximum hardness penalty that can be applied as part of the Disable Device check is -20.

Jeez, repeating the same maneuver over and over, I see. A seventh level maneuver for a *possible* 20 extra damage when using one particular type of attack isn't good, at all.


Caving Assault
Sundered Veil 5 (Strike)
Prerequisite: Two Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Weapon Range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous

You feign an attack, truly hoping to get a good strike at your foe's weapon.

This maneuver functions as Crack shot, except the maximum hardness penalty that can be applied as part of the Disable Device check is -15.

You know the drill. Well, this is actually a repeat, but still.


Dulling Skid
Sundered Veil 1 (Counter)
Prerequisite: None
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Weapon Range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous

As the blades fly all around you, the right movements and defenses make sure that even blows that successfuly hit you come at a deep price.

You can initiate this maneuver after a creature that threatens you makes a melee attack against you. Regardless of successful or fail of the melee attack roll, after the attack has been confirmed as a hit or miss, the creature takes a -2 penalty per 5 ranks in Disable Device you possess on all future attack rolls with that weapon. This condition is permenant, but it can be repaired by paying 100 x your initiator level gp. Natural weapons cannot be repaired by reforging them, but 2d4 days of rest fixes them naturally in most cases.

Should be dulling skin. It doesn't do anything at level 1 (you don't have five ranks), and why do missed attacks hurt the weapon? Also, this just means that you either A: Sink the parties gold to repair the weapon if used against them or B: ruin the loot you were going to get by forcing them to pay a lot. Honestly, why would you have to pay 2000 gp to get a masterwork greatsword fixed, when it's only 400 GP?


Eye for Destruction
Sundered Veil 1 (Counter)
Prerequisite: None
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

You quickly and efficently pin poin the weaknesses and flaws in your foe's equipment, allowing you to quickly dismantle and destroy it.

While you are in this stance, whenever you would deal damage to an object (such as a stone pillar, a chain, or a foe's weapons and armor) you can make a Disable Device check at will. If you succeed on the check (DC 10 + target object's hardness or damage reduction), you deal double damage to it if your attack is successful. This bonus even applies to creatures, namely constructs.

So you deal doubled damage to constructs, with a first level stance. This is nuts. Really, really nuts. This should be an eighth level stance.


Gut Shot
Sundered Veil 3 (Boost)
Prerequisite: One Sundered Veil maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Weapon Range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous (See Text)

You smash the creature's torso with a devestating blow, damaing vital organs and winding the creature.

For the rest of your turn after initiating this maneuver, the next attack you make has a chance of inflicting major damage to the creature. If your next melee or ranged attack is successful, the target creature takes normal weapon damage, as well as the following effects based on your ranks in Disable Device.

Ranks in Disable Device
Effect
1 - 6 Deal damage to creature's armor (if any)
7 - 13 Above; Creature is Dazed for 1 round.
14 - 19 Above; Creature is Stunned (instead of Dazed) for 1d4 rounds.
20 - 23 Above; Creature takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage.

So with a third level manuever you get a no save daze on anybody? That's pretty insane, because you can just lockdown somebody by constantly using this and refreshing it. However, then it gets weaker, because stun (but not daze) immunity is rampant, and the capstone of 1d4 constitution damage is just pitiful (but still great with the rest of the abilities). Breaking armor is another thing people won't want to do, since it ruins the loot.


Hallow No More
Sundered Veil 3 (Strike)
Prerequisite: One Sundered Veil maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 Full-Round Action
Range: Touch
Target: Touched Creature or Object
Duration: Instantaneous

You meddle with the very fabric of the spells and the methods described to keep it in place until, finally, you shatter them.

As a full round action, you can attempt to dispel magic and psionic effects that remain in an area. To do so, you must touch the object or creature that is affected by the spell or power and make a Disable Device check at a penalty against the caster or manifester's caster level check or manifester level check. If you succeed, the spell is dispelled, as if by dispel magic. This maneuver functions as a targeted dispel using a dispel magic spell or dispel psionics power, except you use your Disable Device - 10 in place of a caster level check. If the touched creature is unwilling, they are entitled to a Will saving throw (DC 10 + your initiator level + your Dexterity modifier).


So it's dispel magic, except the enemies get a will save and it's disable device -10? At least they get a will save, because they're never going to beat the disable device check (Just flat ranks+stat bonus beats the CL check needed most of the time, and a magic item skews it even farther. It would be like having a 60 CL for dispel magic at level 20).


Mechanic's Hustle
Sundered Veil 6 (Stance)
Prerequisites: Two Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

You pick up the pace so that you can "fix" as much as possible before there's no one left alive to play with.

While you are in this stance, you gain an enhancement bonus to your speed and to your reach based on your ranks in Disable Device. See the table below.

Ranks in Disable Device
Speed Enhancement
Reach Enhancement
1 - 5 + 5 ft. _
6 - 10 +10 ft. _
11 - 15 +15 ft. +5 ft.
16 - 20 +20 ft. + 5 ft.

The first level stance that doubles damage is far more effective than this, and sometimes you might not want a reach weapon (if you already have a reach weapon and want to make full attacks against somebody who is next to you, for instance, this screws you over.) Plus, enhancement bonuses means you can pick up a magic item anyway.


Mechanical Expertise
Sundered Veil 1 (Stance)
Prerequisite: None
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

Your immense knowledge of how to break and smash weapons applies itself nicely to the roguish field of traps and dangers.

While you are in this stance, you gain the Trapfinding ability (as a Rogue) and you gain a bonus to your AC on attacks made by traps equal to 1/4 of your Initiator level.

This is actually a useful stance, although for out of combat utility.


Meddling Martial Artist
Sundered Veil 2 (Counter)
Prerequisite: None
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Weapon range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous

Your knowledge of the ways of magic may be vague, but you know that a good jab to the gut or kick to the face fouls up most spellcasting well.

You can only initiate this maneuver when a creature you threaten attempts to cast a spell or manifest a power. After making your attack of opportunity, make a Disable Device check. The DC for the creature to cast their spell or manifest their power successfully is increased by an amount equal to the damage you dealt + 1/5 of your Disable Device result. This maneuver cannot be activated if the creature does not provoke an attack of opportunity when it attempts to cast a spell or manifest a power.

It's a standard action to initiate this maneuver, which means that you can't use it at all, anyway. Otherwise, making it harder to cast is nice, although the fact they can just avoid your AoOs with defensive casting makes it not-so-nice.


Mind Muddle
Sundered Veil 4 (Strike)
Prerequisite: Two Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Weapon Range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous (See Text)

You drive your weapon into the creature's head and mix it around a little bit, hoping to stirr up some confusing thoughts.

As part of this maneuver, make a Disable Device check against a target creature's AC. If your Disable Device check is higher, you deal 1d4 points of either Intelligence, Wisdom, or Chasima damage to the target creature (only one, but your choice which). This maneuver has no effect on creatures that are immune to critical hits or without discernable anatomies.

So it's the same as the other maneuver above, but with an even more negligable penalty? Blech.


No Life, No Worries
Sundered Veil 5 (Strike)
Prerequisite: Two Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Weapon Range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous

What more is an undead then a squishy, unliving machine to take apart?

As part of this maneuver, make a Disable Device check against a target undead-type creature's AC. If your Disable Device check is higher, you deal normal weapon damage + bonus damage equal to your Disable Device check result. If you deal damage equal to half the undead creature's HP or more, it is instantly destroyed. A sentient undead is entitled to a Will save (DC 15 + your Dexterity modifier) halve the damage taken as a result of the Disable Device check by this maneuver (but not the normal weapon damage). If this damage is still equal to half of the sentient undead's HP or more, it is still instantly destroyed.

So you get a massive bonus to damage against undead, basically. It's not exactly very useful if you don't fight undead, though, which is the point, but... eh. Still, it scales well, at least.


No Survival
Sundered Veil 8 (Counter)
Prerequisites: Three Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Immediate Action
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike the creature's ki, flooding it in all the wrong places to disrupt their movements and defenses.

You can initiate this maneuver when a creature you threaten attempts to make a saving throw (but before any result is rolled). Make a Disable Device check and replace the normal DC for the saving throw with your result. Regardless of the outcome, a creature cannot be affected by this maneuver twice in 24 hours.

Well, this makes any saving throws impossible, so the wizard will thank you.


Rig the Flaws
Sundered Veil 2 (Boost)
Prerequisite: None
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Weapon Range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous

As you strike, you aim not for the creature, but for their possessions; knocking off straps and buckles, causing it to trip over itself.

After initiating this manever, select a target creature that you threaten. For the duration of this round, you can choose to substitute melee or ranged attack rolls against the creature for Disable Device checks against the creature's AC. For every successful attack you make on the creature, their armor check penalty increases by -1, their Spell Failure Chance increases by 10%, their base land speed is reduced by 5 feet, and their maximum Dexterity bonus is reduced by 1. This maneuver does not cause any significant damage, and 30 minutes of small repairs costing 0 gp fixes all alterations.

What if they aren't wearing clothing? The maneuver doesn't make any sense in that regard, nor if they aren't wearing armor (just tell me how you could cut a loose fitting robe so it was even remotely hard to do things in, for instance.)


Rogue's Drill
Sundered Veil 4 (Strike)
Prerequisites: Three Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Weapon range
Duration: Instantaneous (See Text)
Saving Throw: Half

As you plunge your weapon into the creature, you make sure to break as many bones and severe as many arties as possible.

As part of this maneuver, make a melee attack against the target creature. If you succeed, you deal normal melee damage +3d6 damage. In addition, the creature makes a Fortitude save (DC 18 + your Dexterity modifier). If they fail this saving throw, the creature takes 2d6 points of Constitution damage. A successful saving throw reduces this ability damage by half. This maneuver has no addition effect beyond normal weapon damage against creatures immune to precision damage or without discernable anatomies.

Sever, not severe. Arteries, not arties. The DC should be 14+dex, because it's a 4th level maneuver, not an eigth. The constitution damage is nice (an average of 6 con damage.)


Rogue's Screwdriver
Sundered Veil 4 (Strike)
Prerequisites: Two Sundrered Veil maneuvers
Initation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Weapon range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous (See Text)
Saving Throw: Half

As you plunge your weapon into the creature, you make sure to break as many bones and severe as many arties as possible.

As part of this maneuver, make a melee attack against the target creature. If you succeed, you deal normal melee damage +1d6 damage. In addition, the creature makes a Fortitude save (DC 14 + your Dexterity modifier). If they fail this saving throw, the creature takes 1d6 points of Constitution damage. A successful saving throw reduces this ability damage by half. This maneuver has no addition effect beyond normal weapon damage against creatures immune to precision damage or without discernable anatomies.

Oh, the one above was supposed to be an eigth level maneuver. Well, OK, this is weak for a fourth level maneuver. It's essentially an extra 1d6 damage +1.5 HP/HD if they fail a save. In fact, the one above is probably weak as well, but at least that does a decent amount extra with the con damage.


Rogue's Wrench
Sundered Veil 6 (Strike)
Prerequisites: Two Sundrered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Weapon range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous (See Text)
Saving Throw: Half

As you plunge your weapon into the creature, you make sure to break as many bones and severe as many arties as possible.

As part of this maneuver, make a melee attack against the target creature. If you succeed, you deal normal melee damage +2d6 damage. In addition, the creature makes a Fortitude save (DC 16 + your Dexterity modifier). If they fail this saving throw, the creature takes 2d4 points of Constitution damage and their AC is reduced by 5. A successful saving throw reduces this ability damage and AC penalty by half. The AC penalty remains for as long as the Constitution damage does. This maneuver has no addition effect beyond normal weapon damage against creatures immune to precision damage or without discernable anatomies.

Stop barely renaming maneuvers... this is, what, the third or fourth set where you've made many of the maneuvers the same thing?


Sacred No More
Sundered Veil 6 (Strike)
Prerequisites: Two Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Standard Action
Range: Touch
Target: Touched Creature or Object
Duration: Instantaneous

You meddle with the very fabric of the spells and the methods described to keep it in place until, finally, you shatter them.

This maneuver functions identically to the Hallowed No More maneuver, except that it can be performed as a standard action instead of a full-round action.


OK, I guess.


Shatter the Forged
Sundered Veil 3 (Stance)
Prerequisites: One Sundered Veil maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Swift

Your special kind of havoc allows you to mess with machines and other types of constructs, pulling them apart like a living suit of armor.

While you are in this stance, you can make touch attacks against construct type creatures you threaten. If you are successul, make a Disable Device check. You deal 1d6 damage to the construct + 1d6 per 1/5 of your Disable Device result. If you deal more then half of the creature's HP in damage with this touch attack, it must make a Fortitude save (DC equal to the damage dealt) or crumble to bits, dying instantly. An adept can only affect a construct with this ability once every 24 hours.

So in this stance, you make free touch attacks against constructs and deal a decent amount of extra damage with a potential for instant death. I'm not sure if this is more or less broken than the stance that lets you double damage. Then again, the fact it can only be used once every 24 hours on the same thing doesn't make it a very useful stance. Probably should be a strike, but then we get into the problem where this has it's damage doubled by your WTF broken level 1 stance.


Shield of Havoc
Sundered Veil 4 (Counter)
Prerequisites: Two Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Immediate Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous

You use your knowledge of objects and devices to prevent a near-fatal blow from accomplishing anything.

You can initiate this maneuver when a creature makes a melee or ranged attack against you. You can initiation this maneuver after the result has been determined, but before any damage dice are rolled. Make a Disable Device check and subsitition it for your AC. This maneuver cannot be used in response to a surprise attack or an attack you are not aware of.

Useful, although it will make you practically immune to any attacks you use this on.


Trauma Llama
Sundered Veil 9 (Strike)
Prerequisites: Four Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Standard
Range: Weapon range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous

You set to work breaking the target creature's body until there's nothing left to smash.

As part of this maneuver, make a melee attack. If you succeed, you deal normal weapon damage, and the target creature must make a Fortitude save, opposed by your Disable Device check. If they fail the Fortitude save, the creature's takes an amount of Constitution damage so their Constitution would be reduced to 1. On a successful saving throw, the creature takes 4d6 points of Constitution damage instead. In addition, for each point of Constitution damage dealt by this maneuver the creature takes 1 point of wounding damage. A successful Heal check (DC 10) removes 1 point of wounding damage.

What's wounding damage? Anyway, this is pretty powerful, but it is your ninth level maneuver. Still, it just means that it's a 2hko combined with even the weakest of your "rogue's X" line.


Witch Halting
Sundered Veil 5 (Counter)
Prerequisites: Two Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Immediate Action
Range: Weapon range
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous

You effectively stop a creature from using its supernatural abilities through a variety of means.

You can initate this maneuver when a creature you threaten attempts to active a supernatural ability. Make a Disable Device check against the target creature's Will saving throw; if your check result is higher, the supernatural ability fails to activate and is suppressed for 5 rounds. This maneuver only affects supernatural abilities that are activated; ones that are continuously in effect cannot be targeted by this maneuver.

Well, this lets you shut down monsters pretty well, since saves progress slower than anything else and skills progress far faster.

[pyrefiend]

I'd go through all the maneuvers individually, but mostly I'd be copying what Milskidasith has already said. A few points that can be applied to many of these maneuvers:
-A few of them are listed as either the incorrect type (Counter, Strike etc.), or listed as the wrong level.
-Skill checks are incredibly easy to boost in 3.5, so when you allow them as part of a strike, you can fairly safely assume that the initiator will almost always succeed.
-The couple of strikes that deal mental ability damage aren't listed as being used as part of a melee attack. Thus, they deal no actual damage even though the description states that you stab the foe's brain.

...Also, @ Milskidasith

Stop barely renaming maneuvers... this is, what, the third or fourth set where you've made many of the maneuvers the same thing?
This is just how disciplines work. There are several sets of maneuvers in the ToB that are just re-names of each other at varying power levels.

Two specific things stood out to me, but I can give a more fleshed-out critique later.

Rogue's Screwdriver - Strike - Drive your weapon into the creature, damaging their body.
The descriptions for this line of maneuvers struck me as somewhat odd. Driving the weapon into the enemy seems like something every warrior tries to do, and "damaging their body" seems like it would be fairly standard fare as well.

Mechanic's Hustle
Sundered Veil 6 (Stance)
Prerequisites: Two Sundered Veil maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

You pick up the pace so that you can "fix" as much as possible before there's no one left alive to play with.

While you are in this stance, you gain an enhancement bonus to your speed and to your reach based on your ranks in Disable Device. See the table below.

Ranks in Disable Device
Speed Enhancement
Reach Enhancement
1 - 5 + 5 ft. _
6 - 10 +10 ft. _
11 - 15 +15 ft. +5 ft.
16 - 20 +20 ft. + 5 ft.
This doesn't make sense to me. Why does being better at disabling devices make you faster and grant you a larger reach?

[Golden-Esque]

Any discipline focused on sundering is going to annoy people, because breaking the loot is never a good thing.

Just because its going to annoy people doesn't mean that you should refrain from using it. Its in the rules for a reason, and destroying stuff is fair game in any campaign. At higher levels, its something to sink that gold into.


This is useless... you can't use it against DR/-, and you can't use it against DR/magic unless your weapon is already magical (and thusly ignores DR/magic entirely). So... you get to ignore some DR/adamantine, I guess? Even then, aren't there stone mountain maneuvers that ignore DR entirely and do extra damage around this level?

Well, how about Damage Reduction - Alchemical Silver, Cold Iron, Adamantine, Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing? Give that the former four are the most common damage reduction types among monsters, I'd say its pretty good. And although the Stone DRAGON (not Mountain) maneuvers do ignore Damage Reduction entirely, you get one attack with bonus damage. With this maneuver, you can make multiple attacks, and all of the maneuvers in this discipline are usable at range.


Should be dulling skin. It doesn't do anything at level 1 (you don't have five ranks), and why do missed attacks hurt the weapon? Also, this just means that you either A: Sink the parties gold to repair the weapon if used against them or B: ruin the loot you were going to get by forcing them to pay a lot. Honestly, why would you have to pay 2000 gp to get a masterwork greatsword fixed, when it's only 400 GP?


Skid - Verb - an unexpected or uncontrollable sliding on a smooth surface by something not rotating (courtesy of Dictionary.com)

I can speak English, thanks. Its Dulling Skid.

Well, hopefully at 20th level, you enemies are fighting you with something better then a Masterwork Greatsword. Also, this sort of thing happens in real life too. Ever get in a car accident. When you "total" a car, it means that it cost more to repair the car then its worth. So I guess in this case, the near-epic Swordsage "totaled" your masterwork greatsword.




So you deal doubled damage to constructs, with a first level stance. This is nuts. Really, really nuts. This should be an eighth level stance.

Shouldn't be constructs, removing that line. Its objects only.


So with a third level manuever you get a no save daze on anybody? That's pretty insane, because you can just lockdown somebody by constantly using this and refreshing it. However, then it gets weaker, because stun (but not daze) immunity is rampant, and the capstone of 1d4 constitution damage is just pitiful (but still great with the rest of the abilities). Breaking armor is another thing people won't want to do, since it ruins the loot.

I am sticking to my guns about the Sunder mechanic, but I agree that the progression of effects is a little odd, and I'll fix that.


So it's dispel magic, except the enemies get a will save and it's disable device -10? At least they get a will save, because they're never going to beat the disable device check (Just flat ranks+stat bonus beats the CL check needed most of the time, and a magic item skews it even farther. It would be like having a 60 CL for dispel magic at level 20).

It's also a full round action and you have to touch the object or creature, so hey! Guess what? If Mr. Wizard moves more than 5 feet in a round, you cannot dispel him, because without some other type of spell effect, you can only make a 5 foot step at most in conjunction with a full round action.


The first level stance that doubles damage is far more effective than this, and sometimes you might not want a reach weapon (if you already have a reach weapon and want to make full attacks against somebody who is next to you, for instance, this screws you over.) Plus, enhancement bonuses means you can pick up a magic item anyway.

What you seem to be neglecting is the improved reach in general, which increases the size of the area you threaten. Since so many maneuvers require you to threaten a creature to work, its quite good.


It's a standard action to initiate this maneuver, which means that you can't use it at all, anyway. Otherwise, making it harder to cast is nice, although the fact they can just avoid your AoOs with defensive casting makes it not-so-nice.

Typo ... should be an immediate action. Also, you know that Defensive Casting increases the Concentration DC, and if they fail that check, they loose the spell, right?


So you get a massive bonus to damage against undead, basically. It's not exactly very useful if you don't fight undead, though, which is the point, but... eh. Still, it scales well, at least.

By this logic, Turn Undead is a terrible ability. Super Bad. Its never saved anyone ever.


Well, this makes any saving throws impossible, so the wizard will thank you.

Any saving throw since you can't affect the same creature twice in 24 hours with it, and you have to threaten the creature, and you have to succeed on the Disable Device check versus the opposed Saving throw, so with all the buffs enemy Wizards can place on their allies, this can be much harder to get off then you seem to realize.




What if they aren't wearing clothing? The maneuver doesn't make any sense in that regard, nor if they aren't wearing armor (just tell me how you could cut a loose fitting robe so it was even remotely hard to do things in, for instance.)

Lets see, undo a belt buckle so the pants drop, pants someone literally. You can mess with the backpacks and other objects that the creature is no doubtingly wearing, or you could even be adding your own screw ups- tying laces together and the like. Splitting hairs over fluff is pretty lame, to be honest.


So in this stance, you make free touch attacks against constructs and deal a decent amount of extra damage with a potential for instant death. I'm not sure if this is more or less broken than the stance that lets you double damage. Then again, the fact it can only be used once every 24 hours on the same thing doesn't make it a very useful stance. Probably should be a strike, but then we get into the problem where this has it's damage doubled by your WTF broken level 1 stance.

I didn't clarify this maneuver well, and for that I'm sorry. You make a Touch Attack as a Standard Action. If the attack succeeds, you make a Disable Device check and deal 1d6 points of damage + 1d6 per 1/5 of your Disable Device check.


Useful, although it will make you practically immune to any attacks you use this on.

Plenty of other Disciplines have similar concepts, the one coming to mind at the moment is Iron Heart's Wall of Blades. Also, it makes you "immune" to one attack; its not like a score of them or anything.




What's wounding damage? Anyway, this is pretty powerful, but it is your ninth level maneuver. Still, it just means that it's a 2hko combined with even the weakest of your "rogue's X" line.

Wounding damage is recurring damage; you take that 1 point of damage every round until its healed. Its not on here for some reason (late nights kill me I guess). Maybe I should just make it one shot you, because even if this maneuver is a two-hit K.O., the Tiger Claw maneuver slays you outright.



Well, this lets you shut down monsters pretty well, since saves progress slower than anything else and skills progress far faster.

Saves for monsters usually progress slowly because they have monster base ability scores. Dragons don't need to have a +12 to Fortitude at 20th level when they have a base of like 40 Constitution (random numbers off the top of my head).

And as for the fact that a "bunch of the maneuvers have a slightly changed name and similar effects", is that not EXACTLY like the Stone Dragon Damage Reduction maneuvers you alluded to earlier?

[Golden-Esque]

-A few of them are listed as either the incorrect type (Counter, Strike etc.), or listed as the wrong level.

From Milskidasith's post, most of the ones that are wrong have an incorrect Initiation Action; all the Types are correct from what I saw.


-Skill checks are incredibly easy to boost in 3.5, so when you allow them as part of a strike, you can fairly safely assume that the initiator will almost always succeed.

This is why many of the strikes have relatively weak effects.


The couple of strikes that deal mental ability damage aren't listed as being used as part of a melee attack. Thus, they deal no actual damage even though the description states that you stab the foe's brain.

Its quiet possible that I merely forgot to list that they do normal weapon damage. I'll go check and fix and errors.


The descriptions for this line of maneuvers struck me as somewhat odd. Driving the weapon into the enemy seems like something every warrior tries to do, and "damaging their body" seems like it would be fairly standard fare as well.

Yeah, some of them have weird descriptions on the actual chart. When I set down to make a martial discipline, I decide the basic structure of the whole Discipline as a whole, then go in and fill in the actual mechanics. Sometimes those mechanics change from the base structure of the discipline, and the changes might not have been fully reflected in all the fluff. I'll get to that pronto, but I wanted the hard mechanics to be up first.


This doesn't make sense to me. Why does being better at disabling devices make you faster and grant you a larger reach?

The idea is that you're running around building; its more of a gesture of speed and efficiency then an actual part of being able to Disable Devices; the more experience you have at the art, the quicker you can get things done, so the quicker you move to accomplish stuff.

[DracoDei]

Are you sure that "Craft(Armor and Weapons)" might not be a more appropriate choice than "Disable Device"? Disable Device is sorta specialized, and not much use in most campaigns without both Search and Trapfinding.

[Milskidasith]

Just because its going to annoy people doesn't mean that you should refrain from using it. Its in the rules for a reason, and destroying stuff is fair game in any campaign. At higher levels, its something to sink that gold into.

At higher levels, I still have better things to do than re-buy all the gear I've gotten, or annoy my party members because I smashed the +5 sword of awesome instead of just stabbing the guy using it.




Well, how about Damage Reduction - Alchemical Silver, Cold Iron, Adamantine, Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing? Give that the former four are the most common damage reduction types among monsters, I'd say its pretty good. And although the Stone DRAGON (not Mountain) maneuvers do ignore Damage Reduction entirely, you get one attack with bonus damage. With this maneuver, you can make multiple attacks, and all of the maneuvers in this discipline are usable at range.

Most require you to threaten an area, actually, which means they aren't usable at range (though attacks are). Furthermore, even if those types of DR were more common than DR/- (which I'm pretty sure none of them are), it's still not a huge benefit compared to just having a few cheap weapons.





I can speak English, thanks. Its Dulling Skid.

Dulling skid makes less sense than dulling skin, though, especially because I don't generally think of an attack that hits skidding off of you, so much as I think of it sinking into your skin.


Well, hopefully at 20th level, you enemies are fighting you with something better then a Masterwork Greatsword. Also, this sort of thing happens in real life too. Ever get in a car accident. When you "total" a car, it means that it cost more to repair the car then its worth. So I guess in this case, the near-epic Swordsage "totaled" your masterwork greatsword.

Stop killing catgirls; just because it happens in real life doesn't mean that it makes any sense to put it into the game. It should be a free repair, like your other maneuver, for simplicities sake.




Shouldn't be constructs, removing that line. Its objects only.

That makes it OK for utility, although doubling the damage of most of your maneuvers is still overpowered since you actually care about your sunder damage now.




I am sticking to my guns about the Sunder mechanic, but I agree that the progression of effects is a little odd, and I'll fix that.

Good.




It's also a full round action and you have to touch the object or creature, so hey! Guess what? If Mr. Wizard moves more than 5 feet in a round, you cannot dispel him, because without some other type of spell effect, you can only make a 5 foot step at most in conjunction with a full round action.

There are plenty of ways to get around that limitation... and it's still very powerful, especially the standard action version later. Super high dispel check basically means it's just "will save or be debuffed."


What you seem to be neglecting is the improved reach in general, which increases the size of the area you threaten. Since so many maneuvers require you to threaten a creature to work, its quite good.

Yes, it increases the range you threaten, but it also decreases the range you threaten directly next to you. It's a useful effect, true, but not as always applicable as most stances.


Typo ... should be an immediate action. Also, you know that Defensive Casting increases the Concentration DC, and if they fail that check, they loose the spell, right?

Defensive casting is a flat check that any spellcaster will make. You don't even need an item of concentration to be able to make it without needing to roll, and an item of +10 concentration for the few levels you do is very cheap.


By this logic, Turn Undead is a terrible ability. Super Bad. Its never saved anyone ever.

I never said it was terrible, I just said it was very specific and thusly useless in most situations (like how sundering is generally worse than in the long term than you not attacking at all). However, turn undead is terrible... because it scales based on the HD of the undead, so they rapidly become impossible to turn.



Any saving throw since you can't affect the same creature twice in 24 hours with it, and you have to threaten the creature, and you have to succeed on the Disable Device check versus the opposed Saving throw, so with all the buffs enemy Wizards can place on their allies, this can be much harder to get off then you seem to realize.

That isn't hard, at all. Assuming the wizard isn't actively trying to avoid casting at opponent's you threaten, that's a nonissue, and the disable device check is impossible to fail unless you are really, really unoptimized. To give you an idea, I can, without magical items, easily have a disable device mod of over 35 by level 20, which is nuts. With magic items, that can easily jump up to a 65. Getting a 65+1d20 or higher saving throw at level 20 is very, very hard.


Lets see, undo a belt buckle so the pants drop, pants someone literally. You can mess with the backpacks and other objects that the creature is no doubtingly wearing, or you could even be adding your own screw ups- tying laces together and the like. Splitting hairs over fluff is pretty lame, to be honest.

The problem is, when you aren't wearing armor, you mechanically have no ASF, or any of the things you mentioned. It just doesn't make sense to add armor penalties when somebody isn't wearing armor.


I didn't clarify this maneuver well, and for that I'm sorry. You make a Touch Attack as a Standard Action. If the attack succeeds, you make a Disable Device check and deal 1d6 points of damage + 1d6 per 1/5 of your Disable Device check.

That's... pretty low. Even with optimization you can't get a 20d6 attack, and they get will saves to halve it.


Plenty of other Disciplines have similar concepts, the one coming to mind at the moment is Iron Heart's Wall of Blades. Also, it makes you "immune" to one attack; its not like a score of them or anything.

No, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just saying you might as well just make it "the attack doesn't hit" because unless you don't invest into disable device at all you'll never be hit.


Wounding damage is recurring damage; you take that 1 point of damage every round until its healed. Its not on here for some reason (late nights kill me I guess). Maybe I should just make it one shot you, because even if this maneuver is a two-hit K.O., the Tiger Claw maneuver slays you outright.

Eh, it's already more powerful than some 9th level monsters.



Saves for monsters usually progress slowly because they have monster base ability scores. Dragons don't need to have a +12 to Fortitude at 20th level when they have a base of like 40 Constitution (random numbers off the top of my head).

Actually, dragon's have good fort saves, and they have massive numbers of HD. But I'm talking about saves in general, including stats. Even an optimized save (and I mean, almost cheese level optimized) can't beat ranks in a skill + a magic item of +10, let alone +30, to the skill. It's just not possible.


And as for the fact that a "bunch of the maneuvers have a slightly changed name and similar effects", is that not EXACTLY like the Stone Dragon Damage Reduction maneuvers you alluded to earlier?

Yes, and I hate the design on those as well. However, they are still more effective than your "ignore a small amount of the type of DR you can easily get around anyway" attack.

[Golden-Esque]

Changes:

Brain Blender - clarified that you still get "normal weapon damage" and added a Fortitude saving throw.

Chink in the Armor - redesigned. You ignore an amount of all damage reduction equal to your ranks in disable device.

Dulling Skid - gp cost to repair is now equal to 100 gp x the penalty bestowed.

Eye for Destruction - fixed. Constructs and animated objects aren't effected.

Hallow No More - redesigned so it makes more sense.

Mind Muddle - Same treatment as Brain Blend.

Rogue's Tools Series - Saving throw added.

Trauma Llama redesigned - Maneuver now deals Constitution damage based on ranks in Disable Device. Definition of wounding damage made more clear. Saving throw allowed.

[Golden-Esque]

Are you sure that "Craft(Armor and Weapons)" might not be a more appropriate choice than "Disable Device"? Disable Device is sorta specialized, and not much use in most campaigns without both Search and Trapfinding.

That's exactly why I picked Disable Device :). Also, the 1st level Stance grants Trapfinding to the Martial Adept.

[Golden-Esque]

At higher levels, I still have better things to do than re-buy all the gear I've gotten, or annoy my party members because I smashed the +5 sword of awesome instead of just stabbing the guy using it.

Then don't use the maneuver on a weapon that looks good. Make Spot checks to search for intricate designs on weapons and armor (which incidentally makes Skill Mastery (Spot) more attractive), or have a Wizard use Detect Magic at the start of combat if you're that worried. Gear that breaks can be repaired if you're willing to fix it, and technically you're supplying the materials to do so.


Most require you to threaten an area, actually, which means they aren't usable at range (though attacks are). Furthermore, even if those types of DR were more common than DR/- (which I'm pretty sure none of them are), it's still not a huge benefit compared to just having a few cheap weapons.

Damage Reduction (Adamantine) is the most common as far as I know, but I did change the maneuver to ignore an amount of damage reduction equal to your ranks in Disable Device.


Dulling skid makes less sense than dulling skin, though, especially because I don't generally think of an attack that hits skidding off of you, so much as I think of it sinking into your skin.

Attacks don't normally skid off of you. That's why its a maneuver and not a basic action that can be taking in combat. Essentially, you use the grooves on your weapon or the base or something to wear down a weapon's edge. The cost to repair a weapon effected by this maneuver was changed to 100 gp x Initiator level to 100 gp x penalty bestowed by the maneuver. That'll drop the price significantly.


Stop killing catgirls; just because it happens in real life doesn't mean that it makes any sense to put it into the game. It should be a free repair, like your other maneuver, for simplicities sake.

I tend to belong to the camp that since catgirls don't exist, I loose nothing by "killing" them for you. While magic is awesome, I feel that a DnD game needs some foundation of realism in order to be fun. Yeah, you can raise the dead, and channel magic, and do feats of awesomeness, but all that gets boring if all the physics behind things are completely ignored.


That makes it OK for utility, although doubling the damage of most of your maneuvers is still overpowered since you actually care about your sunder damage now.

Yeah, it'd still do double damage to weapons and armor you sunder. Combined with the maneuvers of this stance, that could be ridiculous. I think I am going to change it to dX + dX per 1/y ranks of Disable Device.


There are plenty of ways to get around that limitation... and it's still very powerful, especially the standard action version later. Super high dispel check basically means it's just "will save or be debuffed."

I thought about it, and I decided that this maneuver was exceedingly confusing and complicated due to its interaction with spells like haste, so I changed it. Essentially, it's now dispel magic, but you use your ranks in Disable Device (max +20) instead of your caster level when making the dispel check. You still need to touch the object / creature however.


Yes, it increases the range you threaten, but it also decreases the range you threaten directly next to you. It's a useful effect, true, but not as always applicable as most stances.

Well, maybe not all Stances should be the end-all "I am always in this stance" maneuver that some are. Spice is the variety of food.


Defensive casting is a flat check that any spellcaster will make. You don't even need an item of concentration to be able to make it without needing to roll, and an item of +10 concentration for the few levels you do is very cheap.

Yeah, I ended up agreeing with you on this one. Instead, you add 1/5 of your ranks in Disable Device to the Concentration DC of a spellcaster trying to ignore injures you deal to them when they cast a spell.


I never said it was terrible, I just said it was very specific and thusly useless in most situations (like how sundering is generally worse than in the long term than you not attacking at all).

This is quite true that the maneuver is very specific, but its main purpose is to give the discipline a way to fight undead. I think I might reduce the "WTFPAWN"-age and extend the maneuver's effects to most creatures that are immune to the various abilities of this discipline.


That isn't hard, at all. Assuming the wizard isn't actively trying to avoid casting at opponent's you threaten, that's a nonissue, and the disable device check is impossible to fail unless you are really, really unoptimized. To give you an idea, I can, without magical items, easily have a disable device mod of over 35 by level 20, which is nuts. With magic items, that can easily jump up to a 65. Getting a 65+1d20 or higher saving throw at level 20 is very, very hard.

This maneuver was changed to instead increase the DC of the saving throw by 1/5 of the Disable Device check result, with a maximum equal to your initiator level. While a +10 to the saving throw at 20th level is high, I'm willing to bet that its a lot more bearable then a +35.


The problem is, when you aren't wearing armor, you mechanically have no ASF, or any of the things you mentioned. It just doesn't make sense to add armor penalties when somebody isn't wearing armor.

This is a good point. I'm changing the maneuver to immobilizing the target. I always liked the immobilized condition.


That's... pretty low. Even with optimization you can't get a 20d6 attack, and they get will saves to halve it.

Oh no! You can't do 20d6 damage! :smallsmile: The stance wasn't designed to be an end-all machine slayer. It was designed to show a particularly well-versed individual throwing a wrench into a machine-like creature's gears.


No, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just saying you might as well just make it "the attack doesn't hit" because unless you don't invest into disable device at all you'll never be hit.

You could roll a Fun One :D. And unlike saving throws, there's a LOT of Attack Roll modifiers that fly around. However, I did reduce the bonus to adding 1/5 of the Disable Device check to your AC.


Eh, it's already more powerful than some 9th level monsters.

I've found that the power level between 9th level maneuvers is surprisingly varied. I did change the effect of Trauma Llama (love the name!) though, and I think its a lot better now.


Actually, dragon's have good fort saves, and they have massive numbers of HD. But I'm talking about saves in general, including stats. Even an optimized save (and I mean, almost cheese level optimized) can't beat ranks in a skill + a magic item of +10, let alone +30, to the skill. It's just not possible.

This is another one I changed. It now allows you to make a Disable Device check to cause the ability to fail (no suppression). The DC is pretty high; 15 + Creature's HD + ability mod.


Yes, and I hate the design on those as well. However, they are still more effective than your "ignore a small amount of the type of DR you can easily get around anyway" attack.

While I appreciate your input, I don't think that its a viable argument to call a portion of my Homebrew a flaw when it was balanced and created with the general structure of the appropriate content. If my prior comments seemed a little harsh, it was probably because I was annoyed that all you had to say for a good chunk of maneuvers was "Oh, this again." Every Discipline in the Tome of Battle follows a similiar progression, and while I can respect that you don't like it, please don't belittle my Homebrew for following the appropriate steps necessary to balance the Discipline against other Disciplines.