Sorcerer modification (3.5)

[varto]

Hi, my friends and i were trying to make a good gish but somehow we where not very pleased with the options we had. (Duskblade is preatty cool but it has a limited spell list)
So we came to the sorcerer modification (the battle sorcerer in "complete mage") but it reduced the already limited spells the sorcerer knew.
So from that modification we came to a new battle sorcerer.
Basically is the same old sorcerer but we increased the HD to 1d6 instead of 1d4 and use the attack progression of the cleric (0 to 15 instead of 0 to 10)
As long as he doesn´t use more than a light armor there´s no spell failure chance.
The down side is that it has no martial weapons profiency, but that can be fixed by either taking a fighter lvl or taking a feat to be able to use ONE martial weapon.
We did this modification because we all felt that the sorcerer concept was more like a gish (more mage than fighter) but the core one was, i don´t know, too weak.
Anyway, that´s the battle sorcerer we made, coments?
Oh, by the way, how many ways could a player increa¡se his basic attack bonus by, i don´t know, spells, magic items or feats?

[HCL]

The sorcerer is already a really strong class. If for some reason you don't like duskblade and hexblade (no idea why you wouldn't, they are solid classes) you can use Paladin2/SorcX

or if you have tome of battle take 1 level of a TOB class and go into Jade Pheonix Mage

[AngelisBlack]

Hi, my friends and i were trying to make a good gish but somehow we where not very pleased with the options we had. (Duskblade is preatty cool but it has a limited spell list)
So we came to the sorcerer modification (the battle sorcerer in "complete mage") but it reduced the already limited spells the sorcerer knew.
So from that modification we came to a new battle sorcerer.
Basically is the same old sorcerer but we increased the HD to 1d6 instead of 1d4 and use the attack progression of the cleric (0 to 15 instead of 0 to 10)
As long as he doesn´t use more than a light armor there´s no spell failure chance.
The down side is that it has no martial weapons profiency, but that can be fixed by either taking a fighter lvl or taking a feat to be able to use ONE martial weapon.
We did this modification because we all felt that the sorcerer concept was more like a gish (more mage than fighter) but the core one was, i don´t know, too weak.
Anyway, that´s the battle sorcerer we made, coments?
Oh, by the way, how many ways could a player increa¡se his basic attack bonus by, i don´t know, spells, magic items or feats?

I might be seriously misreading your post, but there is a battle sorcerer in Unearthed Arcana. MWP with one martial weapon, no ACF in light armor, BAB of the cleric, d8 hit dice, with the downside of a serious kick in spellcasting ability. One spell known and spell slot deducted per level. The sorcerer modification in complete mage is called "Stalwart Sorcerer" and only provides MWP with one weapon and enhanced HP.

[Milskidasith]

Uhh... if you're taking feats for weapons, you'd probably want to take exotic, not martial, weapon proficiency. Anyway, there are plenty of good sorcerer gish builds.

[varto]

The sorcerer modification in complete mage is called "Stalwart Sorcerer"
Ups! you are right, sorry, i was talking about the one in the Unearthed Arcana.
I was going to play with that but then my friends told me that a sorcerer has a very limited spell list known so we came across the modification i mention before. The real diference betwen our sorcerer and the battle sorcerer is that we keep the spellcasting of the original sorgerer, but we reduce the HD to 1D6 and no weapon profiency, just to keep things a little balanced. (we are just trying this class, we still need to see if it gets too good at higher lvl or too weak)

Uhh... if you're taking feats for weapons, you'd probably want to take exotic, not martial, weapon proficiency.
Hell, yes!

The sorcerer is already a really strong class. If for some reason you don't like duskblade and hexblade (no idea why you wouldn't, they are solid classes) you can use Paladin2/SorcX
Don´t get me wrong, i played a duskblade before and i liked it, but i had the terrible luck to play with a walking D&D encyclopedia who chose to play as an artificer, and every time he used magic he reminded me how "limited" my comprehention of magic was. (boy, i really hated that guy)
And before you mention it, i don´t play with an artificer because i still don´t get the item creation process, every time i try to read it i get lost in the middle.

I might be seriously misreading your post
Yeah, i´m from Argentina and we speak spanish here so that´s why you might find a couple of grammatical errors, sorry about that.

[Zincorium]

As far as the concept you're working on:

Spellcasting as a regular sorceror is extremely strong- your lack of hit dice, base attack bonus, and weapon/armor proficiency is the tradeoff needed to justify having all those spells (wizard doesn't make sufficient tradeoffs at all).

You know what beats things up in melee, wears heavy armor, and casts good spells all from level 1? Clerics. If you're going to start modifying a class to fit your idea, it'd be easier and more balanced if you start with cleric and refluff it to be an arcane caster.

[tyckspoon]

You know what beats things up in melee, wears heavy armor, and casts good spells all from level 1? Clerics. If you're going to start modifying a class to fit your idea, it'd be easier and more balanced if you start with cleric and refluff it to be an arcane caster.

There are much better Arcane gish prestige classes than Divine. That said, if you want to do it by single-classing a base class, then the Cleric is one of the best options (Psychic Warrior is what I would consider the other, for a more physically-inclined idea.)

[JaronK]

Note that Arcane Disciple lets you cast Divine Power, which gives full BAB and +6 Strength. Not too shabby. When combined with the Anima Mage PrC, you could easily persist that.

Something simple like Binder 1/Sorcerer 4/Anima Mage 10 with Arcane Disciple: War should have no problem gishing it up, and can use Persistant Divine Power and Persistant Wraithstrike to ensure hits.

JaronK

[Gorgondantess]

Ugh... Paladin 2/Sorceror 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8. You're packing a bunch of awesome class abilities, turn undead for DMM persist cheese, +16 BAB (just enough to get a 4th iterative attack) and 18th level sorceror casting for 9th level spells.
Now there's a gish.

[Skaven]

Uhh... if you're taking feats for weapons, you'd probably want to take exotic, not martial, weapon proficiency.

Yup, hence why every time I DM, I houserule MWP gives access to all martial weapons. Otherwise there's no point: take an exotic WP since they're better on average.

[varto]

Thanks for the ideas, i´ll check how can i turn a cleric into a new brand of sorcerer. (it´s gona need some work!)

[Thespianus]

How about this: Instead of limiting the spells known, limit the number of spells per day?

Just grasping at ideas here: Give the Sorcerer MWP, ability to cast in light armor without risk of ASF, 1D8 HP and 3/4 BAB. Let him keep the Sorcerer "spells known" progression.

Then limit the number of spells per day to Wizard levels, that is "Max 4/spell level" instead of "Max 6/spell level", or maybe even lower, Max 3/spell level.

So the spell per day progression for this "Martial Sorcerer" would be, say:


0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1 3 1 - - - - - - - -
2 4 2 - - - - - - - -
3 5 3 - - - - - - - -
4 6 3 1 - - - - - - -
5 6 3 2 - - - - - - -
6 6 3 3 1 - - - - - -
7 6 3 3 2 - - - - - -
8 6 3 3 3 1 - - - - -
9 6 3 3 3 2 - - - - -
10 6 3 3 3 3 1 - - - -
11 6 3 3 3 3 2 - - - -
12 6 3 3 3 3 3 1 - - -
13 6 3 3 3 3 3 2 - - -
14 6 3 3 3 3 3 3 1 - -
15 6 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 - -
16 6 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 1 -
17 6 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 -
18 6 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 1
19 6 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 2
20 6 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3


Or, if that's too harsh, go:



0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1 3 1 - - - - - - - -
2 4 2 - - - - - - - -
3 5 3 - - - - - - - -
4 6 3 1 - - - - - - -
5 6 4 2 - - - - - - -
6 6 4 3 1 - - - - - -
7 6 4 3 2 - - - - - -
8 6 4 4 3 1 - - - - -
9 6 4 4 3 2 - - - - -
10 6 4 4 4 3 1 - - - -
11 6 4 4 4 3 2 - - - -
12 6 4 4 4 4 3 1 - - -
13 6 4 4 4 4 3 2 - - -
14 6 4 4 4 4 4 3 1 - -
15 6 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 - -
16 6 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 1 -
17 6 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 -
18 6 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 1
19 6 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2
20 6 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3


It would make him more durable, in a hit-point sense, and make him better at ray attacks and stuff, but make him lose some of the vast power that full Sorcerers have at higher levels.

[Talya]

and 18th level sorceror casting for 9th level spells.

Don't get me wrong, it's a good build, but, don't you mean "for a 9th level spell"?

[Malacode]

Pshh, Shapeshift is pretty much the be all and end all of Gish spells. With that alone, you're set. And it serves as other spells too! Sure, you'll never match a pure caster, but they're no fun to play :p

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Don't get me wrong, it's a good build, but, don't you mean "for a 9th level spell"?Runestaves and Knowstones, baby. Runestaves and Knowstones.

[Longcat]

Ugh... Paladin 2/Sorceror 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8. You're packing a bunch of awesome class abilities, turn undead for DMM persist cheese, +16 BAB (just enough to get a 4th iterative attack) and 18th level sorceror casting for 9th level spells.
Now there's a gish.

DMM(Persist) has been errata'd to only work on Divine spells.

[varto]

How about this: Instead of limiting the spells known, limit the number of spells per day?

Actually i do like more the second spell per day progression. It looks more like the battle sorcerer in Unearthed Arcana.
Sorry to ask you this, but what is "persist"? Is it some skill similar to the permanency spell or something?
By the way, if the Duskblade or the Hexblade had polimorph in their spell list, would that spell make them too powerful? (yeah, i change subjects as fast as you change your underwear (or at least as fast as you should :smallbiggrin:)

[Longcat]

"Persist" stands for "Persistent Spell", a metamagic feat from Complete Arcane. It makes buffs last for 24h, at +6 spell level.

[Temotei]

we increased the HD to 1d6 instead of 1d4

Umm...that's awful. You get one hit die forever? :smallbiggrin:

That's d6 and d4 you're thinking of.

[Optimystik]

There are much better Arcane gish prestige classes than Divine.

That's because clerics don't need PrCs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinepower.htm) to be good gishes.