Why psionics solves everything

[The Vorpal Tribble]

This is why Roy needs to take that level in psion.

Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions (http://dndsrd.net/psionicPowersQtoW.html#sensitivity-to-psychic-impressions)

They'd know very quickly if the gate was actually hidden there or not. Simple 2nd level power that Girard would not be able to hide, foil, or dispel.

[Kish]

that Girard would not be able to hide, foil, or dispel.
I think you're making an invalid assumption about what Girard can and can't do.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

I think you're making an invalid assumption about what Girard can and can't do.
He would have had to of taken some psion levels himself and made up his own power to do so..

There is no spell-version of this, and psionics are very rare in this world, so he'd have to have taken precautions against a low-level spell from an obscure discipline of a rare class that allows no save nor saving throw. He's have had to take levels in Psicraft or Knowledge (psionics) to even know it existed. That's like a druid just happening to take levels in knowledge (architecture and engineering).

I think it is a very valid assumption.

[Kish]

He would have had to of taken some psion levels himself and made up his own power to do so..
Oh? I admit I never read the 3.5ed psionics book, only the 3.0ed one. Did they say magic can no longer affect psionics?

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Oh? I admit I never read the 3.5ed psionics book. Did they say magic can no longer affect psionics?
No, magic can. However, there is no spell that counters it as there is no magic equivalent.

There isn't even a psionic power that hides it... except for the one I myself wrote, but that's besides the point.

[Kish]

Then we've already seen a spell that would have foiled it, haven't we? Cloister. And the wizard who came up with that one wasn't even the master of illusion.

[silversaraph]

I imagine the mind flayer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html) is still in custody. Do something copyrighted, wait for them to show up, and have Belkar make an intimidation check (I need that guy!)


Then we've already seen a spell that would have foiled it, haven't we? Cloister. And the wizard who came up with that one wasn't even the master of illusion.

Where? It's not like V was using psionics in one of his attempts...

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Why would Cloister have any effect on it?

Edit: 2nd question, did you follow the link I posted?

[Kish]

Yes. Oh, wait, you're right, Cloister wouldn't affect a power invoked while standing in the area to be scanned.

Regardless. I think you're overrating psionics and that Girard is far more likely to have used a spell that would block all magical or psionic detection methods than something that blocks magic but lets psionics get right through (whether or not Girard actually took psionics into account). He would certainly not need actual psion levels to do so.

Although the Order's already pretty certain the Gate's not there. I imagine, if they used that power, the result would be "nothing here but a trap which already went off," not because Girard cast any manner of concealing spell there, but because that's the case.

[Mystic Muse]

Isn't everything in the SRD open content?

[The Vorpal Tribble]

There IS nothing that blocks it yet still allows magic/psionics to function. There is nothing to block. You sense what is already there with that power.


Although the Order's already pretty certain the Gate's not there. I imagine, if they used that power, the result would be "nothing here but a trap which already went off," not because Girard cast any manner of concealing spell there, but because that's the case.
With as emotionally involved as the Scribble was with the gates you bet anything involved with it would leave an impression.

Everything mentioned so far is very LESS likely than the fact that the ability would simply work.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

This is why Roy needs to take that level in psion.
So he can be past-psychic in addition to being future-psychic?

[silversaraph]

Yes. Oh, wait, you're right, Cloister wouldn't affect a power invoked while standing in the area to be scanned.

Regardless. I think you're overrating psionics and that Girard is far more likely to have used a spell that would block all magical or psionic detection methods than something that blocks magic but lets psionics get right through (whether or not Girard actually took psionics into account). He would certainly not need actual psion levels to do so.

Although the Order's already pretty certain the Gate's not there. I imagine, if they used that power, the result would be "nothing here but a trap which already went off," not because Girard cast any manner of concealing spell there, but because that's the case.

This is also a world where an intelligent goblin who as traveled the world didn't know if psionics existed or not. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) I think in this world psionics is like the tooth faerie to us-- everyone has heard about it, but people assume it doesn't actually exist (it's been used in bedtime stories!)

Edit:
So he can be past-psychic in addition to being future-psychic?


Oh, yeah. and THIS.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

So he can be past-psychic in addition to being future-psychic?
:smallamused:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Conuly]

This is also a world where an intelligent goblin who as traveled the world didn't know if psionics existed or not. I think in this world psionics is like the tooth faerie to us-- everyone has heard about it, but people assume it doesn't actually exist (it's been used in bedtime stories!)

But maybe Girard knew a guy as a kid who was a psion or something. Or Soon did, or Kraagor, or somebody, so they knew it wasn't made up. Contrived? Maaaaaaybe - but this is a story. "Just use stronger skills!" isn't really going to work.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

But maybe Girard knew a guy as a kid who was a psion or something. Or Soon did, or Kraagor, or somebody, so they knew it wasn't made up. Contrived? Maaaaaaybe - but this is a story. "Just use stronger skills!" isn't really going to work.
#1. The power is Seer-only. Not only would not every psion know of the power, only one type of psion could even manifest it regardless of whether they knew of its existence.

#2. Assuming the above, he'd have to even remember it and think, 'Well hey, maybe there is a chance in a billion someone would use it'

#3. Assuming even that, there is no way for a magic user OR psionic user to cover it.

#4. Ok, maybe all three above happen. He now has to go out of his way to research a specific spell that specifically counters a psionic power that he just had to go through a series of highly improbable events to be aware of, remember and act against.

At this point what is more likely, all of the above happened or he simply didn't prepare for it?

[silversaraph]

What's funny though, is that if this, on the off chance, WAS what Rich was going to do, he'd probably go ****! and cancel it. I remember him saying once that he skims through speculation threads like this, and also tries his hardest to be as unexpected as possible. So we know for sure now that it isn't going to happen. I think it would be fun to suggest every possible scenario for a comic in which something big is going to happen, with a thread title to grab his attention. I wonder, if a different person did it every time, that would be considered spamming or not...

If he does see this, it's also possible he'll use REVERSE PSYCHOLOGY and do exactly what we suspect, just to throw us off, and other people can use that as evidence in that he doesn't do what I'm saying!

And then the reverse-reverse happens. And then the universe implodes and creates a gigantic black hole. The end.

[Kish]

At this point what is more likely, all of the above happened or he SIMPLY DIDN'T PREPARE FOR IT?
Given that the Gate is unlikely to be there, he probably didn't prepare for it. However, I still don't accept your duality. It's, rather:
1: Girard cast a general-purpose epic thwart-all-kinds-of-magical-detections spell at the Gate's location. It covers the power you linked too, even though it wouldn't if you were writing the comic.
2: He didn't bother to shield the random location he sent Soon. Neither would the power pick up anything there, since there never was anything significant there.
3: Because he had to specifically be thinking of psionics, and moreover, of the specific power he wanted to block for his magic to block the power, his legendary illusions fall before the power of any psion.

Option #3 is the only one I'm discarding; I get that it's also the only one you're not discarding.

What's funny though, is that if this, on the off chance, WAS what Rich was going to do, he'd probably go ****! and cancel it. I remember him saying once that he skims through speculation threads like this, and also tries his hardest to be as unexpected as possible.

No, he said it bothers him when people guess what he's going to do, but he also said he's never actually changed anything based on forum speculation.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

What's funny though, is that if this, on the off chance, WAS what Rich was going to do, he'd probably go ****! and cancel it.

On the off, off chance that it was going to do. Which is an off chance. A very off chance.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

1: Girard cast a general-purpose epic thwart-all-kinds-of-magical-detections spell at the Gate's location. It covers the power you linked too, even though it wouldn't if you were writing the comic.
Here's the thing though, clairsentient powers are not divination spells. There is a difference. As such, he would still need to include powers and be mindful of their existence.


2: He didn't bother to shield the random location he sent Soon. Neither would the power pick up anything there, since there never was anything significant there.
The fact they discovered nothing regarding an actual gate would be the answer.


3: Because he had to specifically be thinking of psionics, and moreover, of the specific power he wanted to block for his magic to block the power, his legendary illusions fall before the power of any psion.
Assuming the psion managed to bypass them to get to that specific spot, sure.

It's called a loophole. And it's an obscure one. It's not being more powerful, it's just knowing one thing you're opponent doesn't.

[Pyron]

Here's the thing though, clairsentient powers are not divination spells. There is a difference. As such, he would still need to include powers and be mindful of their existence.

Assuming that the psionics-magic transparency exist:
SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#clairsentience):

For the purpose of psionics-magic transparency, clairsentience powers are equivalent to powers of the divination school (thus, creatures immune to divination spells are also immune to clairsentience powers).

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Assuming that the psionics-magic transparency exist:
SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#clairsentience):
Which would mean it would have to hide every divination power. Ever. In the entire area. Even those immune to spell resistance. Even those that doesn't specify an area, target or time period. That would hide even divinations that would read emotions that he emoted AFTER the casting.

Such a spell however would also be an answer of sorts.

[factotum]

If the rules say that there's nothing an epic level magic-user can do to block a 2nd level psionic power then the rules are insane. Any DM worth his salt would have that house-ruled out in about 0.03 seconds, and we know that the Giant is perfectly willing to change or ignore the rules if the plot takes precedence!

[The Vorpal Tribble]

If the rules say that there's nothing an epic level magic-user can do to block a 2nd level psionic power then the rules are insane. Any DM worth his salt would have that house-ruled out in about 0.03 seconds, and we know that the Giant is perfectly willing to change or ignore the rules if the plot takes precedence!
The whole point is the chances of him going to that effort are slimmer than him not going to that effort.

Honestly...

[Ancalagon]

The most boring power you can have in any system is the "it solves the plot power".

Really, why even PLAY if you just "throw spell X* at the problem and the plot is solved"?

* Possibly even abusing a glitch in the design.

[Pyron]

Which would mean it would have to hide every divination power. Ever.

Which already exists - it's called the Conceal Seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/conceal.htm). Granted it can be defeated with an opposed caster level check. But, who's going to win: Epic level Illusionist or 3rd level Psion?

[Ryuuk]

The power wouldn't really solve it for them though. If a member of the party where to use it they'd see two things for certain: Roy as he realizes that its a trap, and Girard as he's placing it. That's it.

Odds are it would just be another divination that revealed nothing else about that particular spot of the desert. Unless Girard decided to go into an evil monologue after casting the trap, cursing Soon and saying the exact location of the gate out loud, all they would have would be a confirmation that nothing else happened there.

The way I see it, unless you know where to look, that power isn't going to help them find the gate anymore then True Seeing or Polymorphing into a Badger.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Which already exists - it's called the Conceal Seed. Granted it can be defeated with an opposed caster level check. But, who's going to win: Epic level Illusionist or 3rd level Psion?
That doesn't apply. Read the power.


The way I see it, unless you know where to look, you're that power isn't going to help them find the gate anymore then True Seeing or Polymorphing into a Badger.
You'd see him hiding the gate if there was one, and merely making the explosion trap if it wasn't there.

Both involved heavy emotional states, something that would register with the power.

[Lamech]

Only detects emotional events. NOT gates. So they might see a battle. Involving some shadowy people, who may or may not be the order of the scribble. Also if Girard is mind blanked its going to fail, something he should be doing. If the rift and battle were below the sand it won't do anything. OTOH, the hapless psion might see a battle with out a gate because its the war torn western continent. Finally if the battle had conflicting emotions such as fear and rage the spell wouldn't give anything.

Which means the spell is essentially worthless. It has a good chance of missing the battle, it has a good chance of giving a battle despite the lack of gates. Its useless.

[Pyron]

That doesn't apply. Read the power.


You mean: "The conceal seed can also be used to block divination spells, spell-like effects, and epic spells developed using the reveal seed" doesn't apply? :smallconfused:

[Ryuuk]

It was a big point in the comic that this probably isn't a double bluff. If the gate was there, they'd have found it already. If it wasn't there, well, they'd have confirmation of it by only seeing anything gate relevant in those two instances above (Roy blowing up, Girard placing the trap), but get nothing beyond that.

Sorry, I'm working with the assumption that the gate isn't there. If it is then the power works, and I'll gladly admit I didn't see it coming.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Where are you getting this stuff?

He's involved with hiding something that can destroy the world. There is a STRONG emotional state involved.

Also, never does it say you can only sense 'one' emotion.


Also if Girard is mind blanked its going to fail, something he should be doing.
I looked up Mind Blank. It does nothing.

"This power protects against powers with the mind-affecting or scrying descriptors."

Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions is neither mind-affecting nor scrying. Nor are you reading a mind. You are basically observing tracks in the sand.

[silversaraph]

You mean: "The conceal seed can also be used to block divination spells, spell-like effects, and epic spells developed using the reveal seed" doesn't apply? :smallconfused:

Maybe he means the spell duration? 200 minutes?

[The Vorpal Tribble]

You mean: "The conceal seed can also be used to block divination spells, spell-like effects, and epic spells developed using the reveal seed" doesn't apply?
The conceal seed has to be directed at a person or object. Sensitivity is not directed at ANYONE.

[Ryuuk]

If anything, wouldn't Hypercognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm) and Metafaculty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metafaculty.htm) be the key to solving this? They seem all-encompassing enough to cover it.

Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions would tell you if it was there, within 30ish feat of where you cast it, or not. Unless you get a reading on that spot though, you're going to have to comb the whole desert with it.

[Pyron]

Where are you getting this stuff?
I looked up Mind Blank. It does nothing.

"This power protects against powers with the mind-affecting or scrying descriptors."

Except Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm) also: "The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts."


Maybe he means the spell duration? 200 minutes?

Perhaps, but please note that you can modify those parameters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm).


The conceal seed has to be directed at a person or object. Sensitivity is not directed at ANYONE.

See above.

[Optimystik]

#1. The power is Seer-only. Not only would not every psion know of the power, only one type of psion could even manifest it regardless of whether they knew of its existence.

Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge) says hi.

Also, there's a spell that does exactly the same thing. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm) You'll note that nobody in the story uses that either, for exactly the same reason - it would solve the plot.

However, assuming the Giant did have Girard prepare defenses against Legend Lore, they would work against the psionic equivalent just as easily.

[Lamech]

Where are you getting this stuff?

He's involved with hiding something that can destroy the world. There is a STRONG emotional state involved.

Also, never does it say you can only sense 'one' emotion.
The types of events most likely to leave psychic impressions are those that elicited strong emotions: battles and betrayals, marriages and murders, births and great pain, or any other event where one emotion dominates.Its implied that one emotion events are what leaves impressions. Also note that likely means that any event might just be missed. And when Girard was hiding the gate he was simply casting a bunch of spells. Or maybe a really big spell. Guess what though? The order of the stick knows Girard has worked magic there because of the trap laid for Soon. So the order of the stick should get a vision of Girard working magic regardless of the existance of the gate.


I looked up Mind Blank. It does nothing.

"This power protects against powers with the mind-affecting or scrying descriptors."

Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions is neither mind-affecting nor scrying. Nor are you reading a mind. You are basically observing tracks in the sand.Well for starters you looked up the psionic mind blank, which Girard doesn't have. He has the spell version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm).

The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all. Mind blank protects against any spell trying to get information about Girard. Now you might try to argue that the spell does not target Girard, and therefore mind blank does not protect him, but instead the spell targets the sand. Although mind blank says nothing about requiring one to be the target of the spell. Regarldess this still creates two problems.
One: The sand must therefore have gotten the emotional information off of Girard and friends at some point. Except when they go into battle they will have mind blank up unless they want to get mind controlled. Which means the sand can get no information and the psionic power skips over the battle.
Two: This much bigger problem is that the sand is in a desert and doesn't stay in one place.


Finally a rather simple method of protecting against this spell is create a few emotional events. And due to spells like... crushing despair thats easy. Or one could call a few dozen angry demons at that spot.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I think in this world psionics is like the tooth faerie to us-- everyone has heard about it, but people assume it doesn't actually exist (it's been used in bedtime stories!)

The Little Engine that Could. Engines don't exists? :smalleek:

[Setra]

The Little Engine that Could. Engines don't exists? :smalleek:

Not talking ones, at least... wait.. did it talk? I don't remember.

[Kieran Cage]

Not talking ones, at least... wait.. did it talk? I don't remember.

Of course it did. It said "I think I can, I think I can".

Thus leading to the psionics-based joke in the strip.

But on the topic of the thread, I think a more accurate title would be "In a campaign that I (the OP) was running, psionics would solve everything."

Which is fair. However, there are too many unknown factors regarding the OOTS world to make such a blanket generalization regarding its effectiveness in solving the current problem.

[silversaraph]

Perhaps, but please note that you can modify those parameters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm)


Except that it would mean the spell had a dc of [85, assuming you're making the duration permanent (17 times five). Not only would it be practically impossible to cast, it would cost 765,000 gp, 30,600 exp, and take 13 days to develop.

[Gravedjinn]

Actually as a DM there is a single base problem that would thwart your whole idea....
IF.... roy had the ability he wouldnt be able to use it there effectively.
1. the major problem is sand.( if you used that ability there you could spend years going through all the impressions before getting to one that was even partially usable. that sand has blown and moved all over the desert traveling perhaps thousands of miles. so any psy impressions could varitably be from millions of locations. the ability isnt going to be able to map all of that.
any of that sand that has been close enough to a major event in history is going to have some level of an impression on it. It would be garbled at best.

The vision of the event is dreamlike and shadowy. You do not gain special knowledge of those involved in the vision, though you might be able to read large banners or other writing if they are in your language.

i don't think there are going to be any large banners at the entrance to the gate ....

I personally think you are trying to over extend the power of a psionist. haveing played one on table top alot myself your idea just seems like a power gamers attempt to overstep the nature of the ability itself.
Girard my have been highly emotional at the time of the creation of the trap. but also dont forget concentration and being centered are a paramount part of a casters abilities. so the actual creation of the other said illusions to protect the gate where likely done at a time when G was very calm.

I'm not saying it is a complete impossibility. just that the real chance of that ability providing some thing useful would likely take a perfect roll of the dice.

[Pyron]

Except that it would mean the spell had a dc of [85, assuming you're making the duration permanent (17 times five). Not only would it be practically impossible to cast, it would cost 765,000 gp, 30,600 exp, and take 13 days to develop.

I don't see how an Epic Spell with a DC 85* would be impossible in light of spells like Famlicide and Cloister. Even Xykon's Superb Dispelling has a DC of 69 (if we remove the mitigating damage factor).

Furthermore, there are mitigating factors to the spell by increasing the casting time and adding an XP burn. This will reduce the Final Spellcraft DC. Considering the nature of this type spell, it's not unreasonable to give it a casting time of (for example) 65 days and burn 5,000 xp.

* While, I have not crunched the final DC but I imagine this sort of spell would have an even higher DC.

[TriForce]

actually you sensitivity to psychic impressions, does nothing that a simple detect magic wouldnt do, magic and psionics are (in 99% of the storytellers that i know) equal, and stuff that foils magic works on psionics and vice versa. since clearvoiance powers are nothing more then the psionic equal of divination spells, anything that counters divinations counters your power too.


this is one reason i normally ban psionics from my campaigns, the people who want to use them normally consider them to be unbeatable becouse its not magic...