Would you consider the "Thieves Guild" evil?

[silversaraph]

I'm just wondering, since there's a clear blur of what is defined as evil in this world (see SoD), if you would think of the Thieves Guild as evil. Not chaotic, but evil in the sense that these people are stealing from the livelihood of others, (even though some of these people are also "evil".) It's obvious that some people in the guild are chaotic or lawful evil such as Crystal ,in the bonus strips of Don't split the party, where you want to strangle her for the chaotic evil acts she does in the "get Roy" deleted scene or Bozzok (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html), who appears lawful. And then there are the people who appear evil in our sense, such as those who fight dogs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0603.html), but in this world the practice might be socially acceptable.

But then there are people such as Haley, who is strictly considered a good person, and there are a few people in the guild who appear good, but in partly the same way some people think Thog is good, such as Yor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html) (because he's funny).

I'm wondering if you would automatically assume someone in the thieves guild is an evil person, and if the thieves guild as a whole is evil. How about it?

[Kish]

Haley would apparently say yes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0603.html), the Greysky City Thieves' Guild is evil, if she looked at it in those terms at all.

The dogfighting is plainly not acceptable as far as Haley's concerned, or she wouldn't have brought it up. Beyond that, Bozzok is--as you say yourself--clearly Lawful Evil and, as the unquestioned totalitarian leader, he defines the guild's alignment.

[Mystic Muse]

the best I would assume of the thieves guild is that some of them are neutral. You can't work for a guild like that and still be good.

[Zigg]

Yes, 'cause they attacked a main character! :-)

[silversaraph]

Haley would apparently say yes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0603.html), the Greysky City Thieves' Guild is evil, if she looked at it in those terms at all.

The dogfighting is plainly not acceptable as far as Haley's concerned, or she wouldn't have brought it up. Beyond that, Bozzok is--as you say yourself--clearly Lawful Evil and, as the unquestioned totalitarian leader, he defines the guild's alignment.

I'm not picking a side here, but being an ******* isn't necessarily being evil. There are plenty of jerks out there who I wouldn't call evil.

Plus, Haley was in the thieves guild in Bozzok's rule, too.

Edit: Ooh, censored!

[Kish]

I'm not picking a side here, but being an ******* isn't necessarily being evil. There are plenty of jerks out there who I wouldn't call evil.

Would you be gleeful about having to kill them? Bearing in mind that they're all the people you grew up with?

[Mystic Muse]

Plus, Haley was in the thieves guild in Bozzok's rule, too.


yes, and she was chaotic neutral then. Not Chaotic good.


Would you be gleeful about having to kill them? Bearing in mind that they're all the people you grew up with?

I doubt that ALL of them are people she grew up with. The arcane trickster got killed by Belkar/Mister scruffy, Jenny lived, Hank is still alive and Bozzok lived. Those are the only ones I remember being mentioned in on the origin of PCs. There's also Billy but I don't remember what happened to him. She also kind of hated Bozzok anyway and he stabbed her in the gut.

Crystal was hardly her friend and I think she deserved death at this point.

[silversaraph]

yes, and she was chaotic neutral then. Not Chaotic good.

Wheres the evidence? If it was that easy to go from neutral to good, just by pursuing your own goals, the alignment and afterlife system falls apart (where you can go from lawful good to true neutral for one chaotic act.) They seem pretty strict on who is "good".

Edit: (at the below post, to avoid too many posts,) could you please clarify what you mean? It doesn't exactly paint a picture in my mind.

[Mystic Muse]

Wheres the evidence? If it was that easy to go from neutral to good, just by pursuing your own goals, the alignment and afterlife system falls apart (where you can go from lawful good to true neutral for one chaotic act.) They seem pretty strict on who is "good".

Also, you should merge the double post.

merged.

I'm going to quote a signature I've seen before on these boards "selfish isn't evil it's selfish. Look out for number one is a neutral attitude. Evil looks out for number one while crushing number two" I don't think that describes Haley.

[Kish]

No one suggested Haley was evil, so what about it? :smallconfused:

[Setra]

I personally saw Haley as neutral before she left the guild as well, because she never really struck me as good... Then again, unless you're giving to the poor (Which I don't recall her doing) when you steal, I think of the thief as neutral or evil.

Then again she really hadn't struck me as anything but "non-evil" til... I think the part with the Dirt Farmers.

Though my memory could be off.

[Mystic Muse]

what I mean is that you can't be good and work for the thieves guild since you're helping an evil organisation that kills people either becasue they didn't pay or because they left the guild. Due to this Haley is either neutral or evil when she worked for the guild. I'd say she's neutral at this point in her life. (when she was still a member)

[NerfTW]

Um, they run protection rackets where they threaten to rob you unless you give them money. They kill people who want to leave.


That's evil. End of story. Haley was doing evil acts, but she had to do it to survive, so I'd be inclined to accept that she's changed. Also, she herself admits she's not entirely "good".


I cannot and will never accept this ridiculous "virtuous thief" cliche that permeates so many fantasy stories. Just because the person they're stealing from is rich doesn't make it right. Haley's only saving grace is that she HAS changed since she left.

[silversaraph]

That's evil. End of story. Haley was doing evil acts, but she had to do it to survive, so I'd be inclined to accept that she's changed. Also, she herself admits she's not entirely "good".


Still not taking a side, but if Haley felt the guild was wrong, she could have left it before she did. She showed she was willing to leave it, she just needed a cause. Until then, it seems she was comfortable or she would have left long ago (she was there for more than five years after she turned eighteen.)

[Acero]

probabley CN

there are many alignments in the guild, but CN is the best way to round them all up

[Morty]

An organization that focuses on robbing people is pretty much guaranteed to be Evil, even without murdering people who want to leave. Probably Lawful Evil, since it has a strict hierarchy, rules etc.
Now, the individual members of the Guild might not be necessarily evil, if they steal to survive.

[dps]

The dogfighting is plainly not acceptable as far as Haley's concerned, or she wouldn't have brought it up.

I thought that she just brought it up to distract Toby.

Anyway, the Guild as an organization is clearly evil. Not all members are necessarily evil.

[hamishspence]

I cannot and will never accept this ridiculous "virtuous thief" cliche that permeates so many fantasy stories. Just because the person they're stealing from is rich doesn't make it right. Haley's only saving grace is that she HAS changed since she left.

According to the D&D sourcebook Defenders of the Faith, stealing, lying, etc are forbidden in the paladin's code because they are "evil methods" not because they are Chaotic.

And in BoVD "Any child can tell you that stealing is wrong"

That said, the most common justification is that sometimes, its a case of vigilante justice- the persons being robbed, are themselves conducting legalized theft- and the persons the loot is being returned to, are those who were "robbed" initially.

Its rare to find a "nonevil" thieves guild in D&D though.

[NerfTW]

I know, it's thankfully rare in any good writing or story. I can handle "We rob from the rich only" as long as they don't claim to be "good guys".

As for the Thieves Guild in OOTS, they are clearly an evil organization, essentially blackmailing and mugging people.


Still not taking a side, but if Haley felt the guild was wrong, she could have left it before she did. She showed she was willing to leave it, she just needed a cause. Until then, it seems she was comfortable or she would have left long ago (she was there for more than five years after she turned eighteen.)


As for Haley, you might want to read Origin again. They very clearly threaten her if she leaves the guild, and Hank tells her that nobody ever leaves the guild alive. She was forced to stay under Bozzok's leadership until given a really good reason to risk her life. (Her father's imprisonment)

I think she was still bordering on Neutral territory while in the guild, but she clearly didn't have much of a choice.

[silversaraph]

I know, it's thankfully rare in any good writing or story. I can handle "We rob from the rich only" as long as they don't claim to be "good guys".

As for the Thieves Guild in OOTS, they are clearly an evil organization, essentially blackmailing and mugging people.




As for Haley, you might want to read Origin again. They very clearly threaten her if she leaves the guild, and Hank tells her that nobody ever leaves the guild alive. She was forced to stay under Bozzok's leadership until given a really good reason to risk her life. (Her father's imprisonment)

I think she was still bordering on Neutral territory while in the guild, but she clearly didn't have much of a choice.

Yes, but she didn't know that they did that until she decided to leave. They didn't actually threaten her directly, he said they "protected" her, and later, Hank said they would hunt her down. If she had tried to leave earlier, she would have already known that (and might have done something smarter, like run away?)

[hamishspence]

From what I can tell, Haley didn't know about Bozzok's killing anyone who tried to leave until Hank told her.

She goes straight to Bozzok to tell him she's leaving- he says if she wants to, she can, after trying to talk her out of it, and after she leaves, Hank tells her about the danger involved in leaving.

EDIT: Ninjaed.

Darths and Droids, has the player's response to, when they are told their characters are "Lawful Good. In theory" as.

"Right, so if we rob somebody, we should make sure they're gangsters first."

Greysky City approachs on being a "City Of Gangsters" so to speak.

[Thanatosia]

Haley stayed in the guild as long as she did because she grew up in it. It was not originally as evil an organization as it became once Bozak took power, and one of the first things he did when taking power is eliminate people like Haley's Dad. Haley herself only evaded Bozak's purges because she was one of the guilds most skilled thieves and still loyal to the organization because of being raised within it. She left just as the organization was starting to tip into outright evil territory, which seemed like a coincidence, but was not (Her leaving was prompted by her dad's ransom, which we later learn was engineered as part of Bozak's power grab (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html) in the guild). Even if Bozaks elimination of her dad did not indirectly lead to Haley leaving as he was taking power, i'm sure the new directions he was taking it would have prompted her to leave on her own soon enough anyways, but of course we have no way of knowing that for sure.

[hamishspence]

For another example in OotS, of an organization going from:

"Criminal organization based on robbery" to

"Evil criminal organization based on robbery"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0159.html

That said, in War and XPs, the bandit leader was referred to as:
"at best, Neutral with some Evil tendencies"

So the Thieves Guild pre-Bozzok, may not have been quite that bad.

[Tricksy Hobbits]

The guild itself may be evil, but the function it serves is not. Hank mentioned the many opposed factions of the guild, and it can reasonably be assumed that if they did not take such extreme measures to retain their members, the guild would have fractured long ago. The territorial battles between the remanants of the guild would have killed many, while the guild making examples of people probably only happen every few years.

[Pyron]

So the Thieves Guild pre-Bozzok, may not have been quite that bad.

"Rob from the rich, and give 40% to the poor.... after reasonable expenses (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html)."

[TriForce]

Its pretty obvious the guild as a organization is (lawful) evil, with the stealing, protection money, and general killing and maiming, the members are likely anything from the evil and chaotic axes. no (current) member of the guild seems to be on the good side to me anyway

[hamishspence]

The guild itself may be evil, but the function it serves is not.

Which function is that? "Protecting" people from criminals who would be more dangerous acting on their own with no limits, than acting only under the orders of the guild?

If "minimising harm by making crime organized rather than disorganized" is considered a nonevil function, what counts as an "evil function"?

Similarly, the Guild under Ian Starshine was focussed on redistributing wealth from the wealthy to the less wealthy- but is this a "nonevil function"?

[licoot]

The thieves guild itself is not evil but its leaders are, under different rule it may be neutral, but it is evil.

[Optimystik]

The guild itself may be evil, but the function it serves is not. Hank mentioned the many opposed factions of the guild, and it can reasonably be assumed that if they did not take such extreme measures to retain their members, the guild would have fractured long ago. The territorial battles between the remanants of the guild would have killed many, while the guild making examples of people probably only happen every few years.

Those deaths would be purely the fault of those souls foolish enough to get caught up in such a cutthroat environment in the first place. Indeed, with the guild fragments so focused on killing each other, it's reasonable to predict that the citizens of Greysky might experience a well-deserved reprieve.

If the primary result of keeping Evil from feeding upon Evil is the persistence of said Evil, then doing so is plainly Evil. Bozzok earns no gold stars from me, and for that matter neither does Hank.

[Qubanz]

Yes, and I'd have killed them all. (And had that other maffia taken root, I'd have happily returned when I needed some more XP and killed them all too. (But hey I like to play 'cheerfully exterminate all destructive influences without mercy or letting anyone run.' You see that's the fun part about adventuring isn't it? If someone's being a ****, you get to legally kill them and you become stronger from it too!)

Seriously though, the ceasefire was negotiated by CELIA, which is a reason to ignore it by itself. If it'd been me instead of Haley, I'd have killed Bozzok, then that little guy, and then for good measure Celia as well. (And I'd be aiming to do that with one shot.)

[hamishspence]

Going by Champions of Valor, even if you are deputized by the local authority to "put down" the local thieves guild, you are still required to use the minimum reasonable force- and take them alive for trial whereever possible.

If you're not deputized, then "self-defence" claims need to be valid- otherwise the issue of "murder: Evil act" start coming into play.

If the local authority is allied to the guild, then you could claim that you are "fighting on behalf of the people oppressed by the guild"- but the issue of unnecessary violence is still a valid one.

The line between "vigilante hero" and "vigilante murderer" can be a pretty shaky one.

[Kish]

Yes, and I'd have killed them all. (And had that other maffia taken root, I'd have happily returned when I needed some more XP and killed them all too. (But hey I like to play 'cheerfully exterminate all destructive influences without mercy or letting anyone run.' You see that's the fun part about adventuring isn't it? If someone's being a ****, you get to legally kill them and you become stronger from it too!)

Seriously though, the ceasefire was negotiated by CELIA, which is a reason to ignore it by itself. If it'd been me instead of Haley, I'd have killed Bozzok, then that little guy, and then for good measure Celia as well. (And I'd be aiming to do that with one shot.)
And when you got back to the rest of the Order, you would have glowed red if any of the Sapphire Guard happened to use Detect Evil near you, too.

[hamishspence]

yes- I'd say it would be a decidely atypical DM that allows adventurers to slaughter their way through evil townspeople as freely as they do evil monsters in a dungeon.

Similarly with slaying good-aligned people who try and broker a truce between you and the evil-aligned people.

[the_tick_rules]

Not inherently. But they do criminal stuff regularly, so mostly.

[hamishspence]

It isn't so much that its criminal stuff, but that it's harmful stuff.

That said, its possible that the average Thieves Guild member is more "jerk" evil than "deserves to be killed on sight" evil.

[Scarlet Knight]

You see that's the fun part about adventuring isn't it? If someone's being a ****, you get to legally kill them and you become stronger from it too!)


:belkar: "Turns out it's OK for me to kill them if everyone agrees on it!"

[B.I.T.T.]

Well without wanting to get into an "Alignment Speculation" Thread, I'd consider Bozz to be Neutral evil (that's Bozzok, not ex-football player Brian Bosworth).

Anyway would I consider the organization itself evil. Hard to say. There are definately evil people working in it (Bozzok, Crystal, Brian Bosworth,), but there are some who tend more towards neutrality (Hank, Haley (when she was there) and maybe the Bard chick). Whatsmore the way the Greysky City Thieves Guild works, it tends to draw in ALL the thieves in the city with their "Join or Die" philosophy, so it would really be a crapshoot.

[Tricksy Hobbits]

Indeed, with the guild fragments so focused on killing each other, it's reasonable to predict that the citizens of Greysky might experience a well-deserved reprieve.


Until the mob moves in because the guild has become weakened by infighting.
The guild is the lesser of two evils here.

[Optimystik]

Until the mob moves in because the guild has become weakened by infighting.
The guild is the lesser of two evils here.

Are they? If they're so weak that a haphazard bunch of thieves could hold them off, their prospects as the lords of Greysky seem quite dim to me.

You're basing that on... nothing at all.

[Schaffer1979]

For me, it does not follow that just because some members are portrayed as evil, even leaders, that the organization itself is evil. Morality is just not a black and white issue for me.

In this story, I do agree that the leadership of the guild appears to be evil at this current time.

----
I also do not believe that stealing from the rich and giving to the poor automatically confers virtue.

That being said, there are instances where I think thieves are portrayed in a non evil manner. I'll give To Take A Thief, a book by Mercedes Lackey, regarding the main character, Skif's life as a thief. Sometimes theft becomes a way of life through circumstance and to change takes exposure and learning taught by others, especially if say a child has not been exposed to anything else. Our morales are as much defined as how we were raised as anything else.

With the above point, I'd say since Haley, as a child, was raised by a thief and in an environment where thieving was normal, would fall under the same jurisdiction as Skif in the prior story. And now, in her adventuring, we see she is exposed and taught by her own experiences to the methods of others.

I also would argue that thieving gives one valuable skill sets that can be used in the cause of good with great success. A modern example would be to hire a hacker to defend you against other hackers.

That old adage, Set a thief to take a thief comes to mind.

---
Original point, in summary: The Thieves Guild itself is not evil. Some of its members are. Since some members of the thieves guild are nonevil, one could argue that the thieves guild is NOT evil just as much as it IS evil.

[Optimystik]

Original point, in summary: The Thieves Guild itself is not evil. Some of its members are. Since some members of the thieves guild are nonevil, one could argue that the thieves guild is NOT evil just as much as it IS evil.

Most if not all of them turned out to murder Haley and her friends, simply because Bozzok told them to. That seems pretty evil to me.

[Schaffer1979]

Since we don't know how many members are in the guild, we can't say how many turned out to kill Haley and company.

Also, considering Blind Pete, how many retired members are of the thieves guild still alive? Those that would have been harbringers of the era of Haley's father's leadership? It seems like a union where once a member, always a member.

Without more information on numbers and other stuff, there is no conclusive information to support either case.

I think the plot required an enemy that the readers would side with Haley against and since Haley was good, plot required the enemy be evil.

And yes, I agree that those on screen were evil.

[Optimystik]

Without more information on numbers and other stuff, there is no conclusive information to support either case.

Haley says they're going out to "fight the Thieves' Guild." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0603.html)

Bozzok calls it "a new regime." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html)

Hank says he "consolidated the guild under his rule." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0619.html)

Finally, I doubt there are more thieves in the guild than "a few dozen." That's at least 24 mid-high level rogues, probably more.

[Schaffer1979]

I'm not doubting you.

I'm saying, from my perspective, the leaders are currently evil but that doesn't make the participators evil. So no, I don't consider the organization evil.

To put into perspective how I think, the CEO could be evil for a company, leading to the company performing acts that are evil but that doesn't, to me, make the employees corrupted to evil.

I'd list leaders of a government, like the USA or a large company like Enron, to show my perceptions except I don't want to get into politics. Being part of something associated as evil, does not to me, make everyone evil nor make an organization, which has not sentience, evil.

A company or business cannot be evil. The people running it may be evil and even many of the members may be evil but that does not make them all evil. Just like the majority of the Sapphire Guard being good does not make all members good; at least, I don't consider the way some characters act to be in my perception of good.

The only thing that would convince me 100% that the Thieves Guild was evil in entirety is if I were shown the events leading up to and forming its founding, which would have to include its mission statement/purpose to be something that was evil. And even that is hard to fully judge as evil if the nature of the organization changes and flucuates as leadership changed.

It is always, in my mind, individuals that are evil not organizations. Populations of an organization may themselves have alignment but the actual building, business, etc etc. I do not see a business defined by its employees but the actions of its employees.

I would be willing to state that I thought some or many members of the thieves guild were evil but not the guild in and of itself, as the nature of the guild is mutable by its leadership.

[Schaffer1979]

I do understand you are presenting evidence for the way your thoughts run with your links.

But since the question in the heading specifically has "you" indicated, as in "your opinion", it wouldn't matter to me what links you presented. The comic is framed in a way to influence our perception of the story and actions of the characters so that we identify emotionally with the characters.

I am stepping outside that frame of reference and just approaching it from the way I would perceive the story with no attachment. it would not matter to me where the evidence to support your opinion came from as I'm not trying to support my opinion with facts from the comic.

---
Also, using links shows from the protagonist's views why they consider something evil and thus is biased. The comic merely supports that Haley, or whoever is framed in the comic link, considers the Thieves Guild evil.

The question, to be redundant on my part, was Would YOU consider the Thieves Guild" evil?

Me =/= Haley or any other Oots member.

[Tricksy Hobbits]

Are they? If they're so weak that a haphazard bunch of thieves could hold them off, their prospects as the lords of Greysky seem quite dim to me.

You're basing that on... nothing at all.

Actually in the link you gave in your later post Hank mentions that if Haley killed Bozzok, the guild would fracture and the Mob would take power.
As for the "haphazard bunch of thieves", Haley, Celia and Belkar were all around level 13ish, and most of the people in the city aren't that high or more cautious because they don't have diamonds for resurrection, so controlling a population with a guild of people around OotS level wouldn't be that difficult.

[Kish]

Actually in the link you gave in your later post Hank mentions that if Haley killed Bozzok, the guild would fracture and the Mob would take power.
Not quite. Hank says that, and Haley is skeptical. Word of God doesn't say it.

[Sewblon]

Yor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html) (because he's funny).

Yor?! Oh my God! Reb Brown is in OOTS! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yor,_the_Hunter_from_the_Future OT Haley used to be in it, so it can't be 100% evil, but I think it is safe to say that it is mostly evil.

[hamishspence]

Going by the way "evil organizations" are handled in books like Lords of Darkness, and Champions of Ruin, I'd say it was the other way round:

"just because the organization is evil doesn't mean everyone in the organization is evil"

Sometimes even the leader breaks the rule. In Dragons of Faerun, the Church of Tiamat is an evil organization, but the head of the church is Lawful Neutral and trying to move the church away from its traditional pursuits.

[Optimystik]

A company or business cannot be evil. The people running it may be evil and even many of the members may be evil but that does not make them all evil. Just like the majority of the Sapphire Guard being good does not make all members good; at least, I don't consider the way some characters act to be in my perception of good.

The only thing that would convince me 100% that the Thieves Guild was evil in entirety is if I were shown the events leading up to and forming its founding, which would have to include its mission statement/purpose to be something that was evil. And even that is hard to fully judge as evil if the nature of the organization changes and flucuates as leadership changed.

You are wrong. Organizations can have alignments, and they can have them even if 100% of the members do not share that alignment. D&D churches are the most significant example, as hamish mentioned.

Every church in D&D is a "company or business." They produce a product (selling spells and magic items) and collect revenue in exchange for doing so, in the form of offerings. In Faerun, each deity serves as the owner of that business, with the High Priest or Chosen operating as the CEO. There are also more traditional businesses - the Zhentarim, the Harpers, the Red Wizards of Thay, the Witches of Rashemen, etc. - all with their own alignments.

I never once claimed that every member of the Thieves' Guild is evil. But for the majority to turn up and try to kill Haley for no better reason than "Bozzok said so" is a highly Evil act.

You're absolutely right that "the Guild is mutable by its leadership." Their change to Evil after Bozzok took power is proof of that. The mere fact that an organization's alignment can change, does not prove that it doesn't have one - quite the opposite.


Also, using links shows from the protagonist's views why they consider something evil and thus is biased. The comic merely supports that Haley, or whoever is framed in the comic link, considers the Thieves Guild evil.

The question, to be redundant on my part, was Would YOU consider the Thieves Guild" evil?

Me =/= Haley or any other Oots member.

Given that Haley knows far more about the Guild than both you or I do (due to having been in it and all) her opinion of their actions is authoritative.

Also, considering people Evil for trying to kill you when you haven't done anything wrong - well, if that's biased, then I guess I'm biased too.

[hamishspence]

In Discworld, while the Watch try to catch unlicenced thieves before the Thieves Guild do,

they don't seem to have that much of a problem with the fact that the penalty for unlicenced thievery, imposed by the Guild on unlicenced thieves that they catch, is death.

Haley has certainly done wrong in Greysky city- just not enough wrong (in modern-day terms) to deserve death.

On the other hand, quitting the Guild in the first place wasn't wrong, would have lead to her death (going by Origin) if she hadn't left down- so, in that sense, in Origin, she was in danger of being killed for "not doing anything wrong"

[Optimystik]

Haley has certainly done wrong in Greysky city- just not enough wrong (in modern-day terms) to deserve death.

On the other hand, quitting the Guild in the first place wasn't wrong, would have lead to her death (going by Origin) if she hadn't left town- so, in that sense, in Origin, she was in danger of being killed for "not doing anything wrong"

The latter statement is what I meant, and that is the only reason they were trying to kill her in the first place - because she left the Guild. In fact, Bozzok's comments indicate that had they known where she was, they would have gone out of their way to kill her (for the "other benefits"), so even her coming back to Greysky was incidental to her death sentence.

[hamishspence]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html

Here it is made clear Bozzok would not have "pressed the issue" if Haley had remained in exile- and that committing thefts on his turf was the main thing that provoked the decision to order her killed.

[Optimystik]

Fair enough, I had forgotten that line. But it doesn't make the Guild any less evil for going after her en masse when she DID come back, which was my original point.

[Kyronea]

I'm just wondering, since there's a clear blur of what is defined as evil in this world (see SoD), if you would think of the Thieves Guild as evil. Not chaotic, but evil in the sense that these people are stealing from the livelihood of others, (even though some of these people are also "evil".) It's obvious that some people in the guild are chaotic or lawful evil such as Crystal ,in the bonus strips of Don't split the party, where you want to strangle her for the chaotic evil acts she does in the "get Roy" deleted scene or Bozzok (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html), who appears lawful. And then there are the people who appear evil in our sense, such as those who fight dogs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0603.html), but in this world the practice might be socially acceptable.

But then there are people such as Haley, who is strictly considered a good person, and there are a few people in the guild who appear good, but in partly the same way some people think Thog is good, such as Yor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html) (because he's funny).

I'm wondering if you would automatically assume someone in the thieves guild is an evil person, and if the thieves guild as a whole is evil. How about it?
I would say it depends upon the individual guild. Some guilds can be forces for good. Take, for example, a guild in a chaotic good city. Such a guild might practice Robin Hooding, preventing the rich from upsetting the balance of wealth too much and giving the poor just enough to keep them from dissolving into crime ridden bedlam. Such a guild would probably also have unofficial support from the local government.

The Greysky City guild, on the other hand, is most definitely evil. Greysky city is rife with awful crime, and the guild does nothing but further exacerbate the problem.

[Optimystik]

The Greysky City guild, on the other hand, is most definitely evil. Greysky city is rife with awful crime, and the guild does nothing but further exacerbate the problem.

More importantly, they force their own members into Evil acts, then prevent them from leaving.

Also, I love the image in your sig, mind if I borrow it?

EDIT: Hey! When did I make Ettin? :smallcool:

[hamishspence]

The logical problem with "going after unlicenced criminals for committing crimes is Evil" is that, in many ways, its the only nonevil thing the Guild does.

The guild serves as a rough-and-ready law enforcement agency, as well as being a criminal organization.

In some ways, this is what adventurers do all the time- they are hired by people to right wrongs, such as being robbed by bandits.

Most of the actions the Guild does are Evil- but its hard to argue that crimefighting is one of them.

[Optimystik]

Ah, but you're forgetting the flipside of the coin - unlike a real police force, they have no incentive to stamp out crime entirely. First, they themselves regularly commit criminal acts, so no matter how effective they get at stamping out "freelancers," thefts and evil acts will continue, if only because they're the only game left in town. Second, they have an incentive not to be totally effective in removing these freelance elements, otherwise they themselves will have no justification to the authorities/government of Greysky to exist.

Put another way - If there are no independent criminals left, who will they masquerade as, when convincing their "clients" that they need their protection? If all the thieves left belong to the guild, they have nobody left to pin the blame on when they rob someone who is not accepting their services.

This is the problem with organized crime in general. Their "policing" act is not bad, I agree, but out of necessity will always includes companion activities that harm the city's welfare. Better if the Guild and all organizations like them are expelled.

[hamishspence]

Ankh-Morpork seemed to do OK- but that may be because other powers were there to ensure the Thieves Guild didn't get out of hand.

"D&D-type Heroes" in general tend to appear in a bad light in the Discworld books- the Patrician's comments in The Last Hero seem to sum up the general image of them in the books.

I can imagine someone like Vimes or the Patrician reading about Haley's fight with the Guild and asking "Exactly why are we supposed to sympathise with her?"

[derfenrirwolv]

Insofar as something that isn't an individual can have an alignment, yes it is. The current leadership is steering it towards evil and the few members that aren't going along with it aren't enough to pull it back to even neutral.

[hamishspence]

I wonder what would be required for such a Guild to be Neutral?

I'd say it was Neutral when Ian Starshine was in charge of it- a lot less violence and a "help the needy" rule. Still, that's more Neutral than Good overall, and I'd put higher requirements than merely "rob only the rich, donate a large share to the needy" for a "Good Thieves Guild"

[Optimystik]

I wonder what would be required for such a Guild to be Neutral?

Not killing their former members would be a start (and in fact, this is precisely the biggest change Bozzok instituted.) Though Bozz implies that Ian would drive them out of town, which doesn't strike me as being very concerned for their welfare.

Though of course, the level of depravity required to be driven out of town in the first place may justify it... assuming that mere incompetence, etc. was not the reason.

[Zxo]

It looks like the Thieves' Guild are some sort of law and order in otherwise lawless Greysky. In #580 the evil necromancer goes to Bozzok to complain that stuff was stolen from him despite that he has got a contract with them, and Bozzok is ready to do what the contract says. their customer service isn't even that bad :smallwink: They obviously punish thieves who are not Guild members if they steal from their clients, since Bozzok is surprised to learn that it was a thief from his Guild after he promised to catch her. Earlier, in #574 Greysky is shown as a free-for-all crime spree with corrupt police who don't care.

I think they're Lawful Neutral (Neutral = Selfish) - with evil leanings due to the new management, but not evil yet from outsiders' point of view. They provide a service for a fee and they are more efficient than the police when it comes to protecting their clients from theft.

We do not know of they have any sort of code, but I would imagine that they go after the big wins, steal shiny things from the rich guys, not small money from poor people who would be in real trouble due to that loss. They do it not because they're Robin Hoods, but because that's more efficient. Neutral for me.

[Kyronea]

More importantly, they force their own members into Evil acts, then prevent them from leaving.

Also, I love the image in your sig, mind if I borrow it?

EDIT: Hey! When did I make Ettin? :smallcool:

That's definitely true. If nothing else, that would be more than enough to seal their evilness.

And sure. I borrowed it from someone else here anyway, so it's not quite mine.

[veti]

It looks like the Thieves' Guild are some sort of law and order in otherwise lawless Greysky. In #580 the evil necromancer goes to Bozzok to complain that stuff was stolen from him despite that he has got a contract with them,

Yes, but they don't do anything to protect innocents (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0574.html) - only those who pay them to protect them. That's not law, that's just business.


I think they're Lawful Neutral (Neutral = Selfish) - with evil leanings due to the new management, but not evil yet from outsiders' point of view. They provide a service for a fee and they are more efficient than the police when it comes to protecting their clients from theft.

They "provide a service for a fee" in the same way as a mugger provides the service of "not knifing you" in exchange for you giving him your wallet.


We do not know of they have any sort of code, but I would imagine that they go after the big wins, steal shiny things from the rich guys, not small money from poor people who would be in real trouble due to that loss.

Really? You think they go after rich people who can afford to pay them protection, rather than poor people who can't? I would suspect the opposite is true. That's how crime works in the real world - it's very like taxation - there's more to be made by taking a little from a large number of people than by taking a lot from a few.

Evil all the way. Hank defends them to Haley on the grounds that they're some sort of lawful evil, which is preferable to chaotic evil from the innocent's point of view, but it's still evil.

[SoC175]

And when you got back to the rest of the Order, you would have glowed red if any of the Sapphire Guard happened to use Detect Evil near you, too. For killing Celia certainly, but for not accepting a ceasefire, negotiated by someone who had no the slightest authority to do so, and which would only serve an evil organization, which incidently was the side that started the armed hostilities and forced you into the current self-defense situation, not so much

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html

Here it is made clear Bozzok would not have "pressed the issue" if Haley had remained in exile- and that committing thefts on his turf was the main thing that provoked the decision to order her killed. Which doesn't make it any better. Just because he's too lazy to see his murder threats followed through if the subject is quick enough to put enough distance between it and the guild, this doesn't make it any less wrong to order the murder of ex-thieves who continue to work in the city.

I would say it depends upon the individual guild. Some guilds can be forces for good. Take, for example, a guild in a chaotic good city. Actually I wouldn't say that the alignment of the city should have too much impact on the alignment of it's guilds. E.g. a chaotic good rogue guild seems much more at home in a mostly LN or LE city, as a mostly CG city would have less need of such a type of rogue guild due to the already dominating attitude of the general population (while there are certainly some snobs that need to be shaken up a little from time to time, such a city should be crawling with freelancers seeing to that without needing a CG guild behind them).

The logical problem with "going after unlicenced criminals for committing crimes is Evil" is that, in many ways, its the only nonevil thing the Guild does. No, it's an evil act for evil reason that just happens to also produce a few good outcomes as a sideeffect