An approach to roleplaying XP

[RyanM]

Awhile ago, I had an idea for how to completely rewrite how RP XP is handled, for any system.

If you've ever had a party composed of a mix of roleplayers and power gamers, you've probably seen how contentious RP XP can be. I also think it's a little unfair to penalize players who simply aren't that creative.

So a new approach: establish a GP-to-XP (or some other currency to XP) conversion, plus a challenge rating-to-XP conversion. If a player's roleplaying costs them something material, or earns them a new enemy, they get XP equal in value to what they lost or gained. A good-aligned character who refuses a reward from poor NPCs (or one who has a vow of poverty who refuses one from rich NPCs), or who gives money or goods to beggars, etc., receives RP XP. If they get the ire of a band of street thugs by defending innocents for no material gain, they get RP XP. Even if they weren't particularly detailed about the narration, just acting in character should be worth some XP.

Now, yes, that will result in the power gamers seeing many NPCs as simple GP-to-XP exchange units. But that's not a problem. It will still encourage them to act in character; at least sometimes, when they want XP more than they want cash and equipment. Power gamers would probably love this mechanic, as it adds a whole new layer to build optimization. Simple carrot and a stick; most RP-oriented GMs rely too heavily on the stick, when trying to rein in power gamers.

Meanwhile, the roleplayers can pretend that their comrades are giving away their possessions and turning down material goods for spiritual reasons instead of to level up faster. And vice-versa, the power gamers can pretend the RPers are prioritizing levels over equip. Less inter-party arguing is almost always a Good Thing.

It's also good for the players who just don't have the knack for storytelling; spinning an entertaining yarn is great, encouraged, and appreciated, but only for its own sake. Only genuinely in-character behavior, which involves tangible sacrifice, is rewarded. And really, that's what needs encouragement more than good storytelling. Creativity is its own reward.

And it still works in neutral campaigns. If a character has a favorite food, or some kind of un-useful collection or whatever, they get some bonus XP if they spend money on useless stuff, or request useless rewards from NPCs. Any time that a player's in-character actions cost them something, for no real benefit, they get XP to compensate.

For evil parties, you'd be relying more on challenge rating-to-XP than gold. Players slaughtered a village? Figure out what challenge rating of guards and bounty hunters will be sent after them in retaliation, and award XP based on that.

Actually, if you end up with a group of mainly power gamers for players, they'll love an evil campaign with this mechanic. They get to kill whoever they want, and they not only get bonus XP for slaughtering annoying NPCS, they also get more guys to fight, thus even more XP on top of that! Wooooooo!

Anyway, just an idea. I think it could benefit most of the "real world" groups we often end up GMing.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Should you give LE characters a roleplaying XP bonus for accepting the quest money... and extracting more from the target NPC?

[RyanM]

Should you give LE characters a roleplaying XP bonus for accepting the quest money... and extracting more from the target NPC?

If that NPC later sends out some toughs to "reclaim" the money, sure. It'd be based on the CR of the guys the party has to fight. If not, then no XP, because their in-character actions already produced a tangible reward, and didn't cost them anything.

The XP is only given when it costs the players something to remain in character, whether it costs them gold, or attacks from the coppers.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Why is it that you assume powergamers are people who will like to engage in combat after combat in your post, while roleplayers will go for diplomatic solutions?

IIRC, the Diplomancer (and Jumplomancer) were powergamed builds, while someone who roleplays a Barbarian well is going to be smashing heads at every opportunity.

[oxybe]

what if the "money" extracted happens to be a fresh liver, sacrificed to your local demon worshipping cult?

an you happen to pocket his change purse while doing the "transaction". evil characters can extract as much from npcs as good characters can... they just feel less bad about it.

[RyanM]

Because that's usually how it ends up.

In any case, the main thing is, if being in character costs something, they get XP to compensate. Some good RPing does involve sacrificing useful stuff, and that's when the power gamers start complaining.

If sacrifice results in XP rather than nothing, that should cut down on arguments.

In cases where good RPing results in a tangible reward already then no XP.

It would also be possible to balance it out, since you'd have GP-to-XP and CR-to-XP ratios. So if an evil party extorts 100 XP worth of gold out of someone, then: If they have to fight a bunch of guys with a CR equal in value to 100 XP, no bonuses at all, because the fight was equal in value to what they gained. They gained 100 XP worth of gold, and "lost" 100 XP worth of fighting (of course, they get XP for just the fight by itself).

If you make them fight 200 RP XP worth of guys, then they get 100 RP XP, because they were already paid 100 XP worth of extra gold. They gained 100 XP worth of gold, "lost" 200 XP worth of fighting, so they get 100 more RP XP to make up for the harder fight. That make sense?

[Grumman]

I think you're going about this backwards. Rather than awarding roleplaying XP based on the value of the tangible benefits they sacrifice, you should award roleplaying XP based on the value of the intangible benefits they gain. That way competence in achieving those intangible goals is rewarded instead of punished.

Say the party is going to pull a Robin Hood, and rob some evil-doer and give the money to charity. Under your system, they get more XP if they do a slipshod job of it and get spotted than if they pull off the perfect heist. That hardly encourages them to treat their little sidequest seriously, does it?

[Tyndmyr]

The usual gp/xp ratio is 5-1.

That said, I think all this solution does is open up another means for powergaming.

[Pigkappa]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html ---> Panels 9, 10 and 11 are roleplaying.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html ---> Roy leaving the group to theirselves is roleplaying.

Belkar giving money to the poors to gain XP can't be considered roleplaying at all. That makes no sense for the character (unless he's really going to start showing some Good tendencies, but that's unlikely).

Roleplaying is about developing a character in an interesting direction. It usually involves sacrificing some resources, but there can be exceptions (see above) which can't be neglected.

A character whose only concern is to become the most powerful being in the world is not interesting at all and should gain less XP. Since he'll likely be optimized, while a character who devoted his life to poverty (vow of poverty) or religion (a cleric who sticks to his god's favored weapon even if he finds a better one in a dungeon) shouldn't be, balance will be preserved.


I had thought another way of rewarding RPing XP. Each character must have a defined nature and motives which define his actions (those could, of course, change with time). At the end of each session, if a character has acted by his motives, or if he didn't but there's a good reason for that and his actions provide an interesting change in his story (Vaarsuvius in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html) there is a fixed RP reward of 100 XP (at level 1; more later (e.g. 150 XP at level 3, 200 XP at level 5, 300 XP at level 7...)). If he did something wrong (a LG character who steals from a merchant just to earn money), he gains nothing. If he does something which makes sense and is really worth noticing (Miko in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html), the RPing XP rewarded will be doubled; this should happen on average every 3 or 4 sessions, IMO.

[Oslecamo]

IIRC, the Diplomancer (and Jumplomancer) were powergamed builds, while someone who roleplays a Barbarian well is going to be smashing heads at every opportunity.

Diplomancer is easily countered by simply blocking your ears, hardly a powergamer build. And I'm currently DMing a campaign where the CE barbarian is probably the heaviest roleplayer, yet he does asks questions first and smashes later. Actualy he managed to get some temporary allies by making intimidate checks in the right conditions.

[Tyndmyr]

My usual groups approach to roleplaying xp is that any player can nominate anyone else for roleplaying xp. General assent results in the DM making up an award. It's typically not huge, and it's as likely to happen for an action that's completely hilarious as it is a clever, well thought out plan or the like, but it seems to work decently well.

I really don't think there is a good way to make it entirely mechanical...it's pretty much a catch all for "you just did something awesome, but it normally wouldn't grant xp".

[Mongoose87]

So, does a VOP character get XP for donating his loot?

[soir8]

My usual groups approach to roleplaying xp is that any player can nominate anyone else for roleplaying xp. General assent results in the DM making up an award. It's typically not huge, and it's as likely to happen for an action that's completely hilarious as it is a clever, well thought out plan or the like, but it seems to work decently well.

I really don't think there is a good way to make it entirely mechanical...it's pretty much a catch all for "you just did something awesome, but it normally wouldn't grant xp".


That sounds like a good system, I'll probably start using it. I usually just make up an amount to reward someone with if I think they've roleplayed well.

[Eldan]

What I'm doing sometimes, based on an idea I read on Planewalker, is award Belief Points. Basically, if a player does something that is very much in character for what he is playing, but not beneficial for him, he gets a belief point. They can either be used for a small bonus, like an action point, or "to make something happen". This is intentionally vague and left open, to encourage player creativity. Basically, in a given situation, they can use their characters intense belief to change a small fact about a situation. Of course, this works better in Planescape than in other settings.

[Tyndmyr]

So, does a VOP character get XP for donating his loot?

I would say that entirely depends on how he donates his loot. If it's merely a pit stop to offload gold between adventures, there's not a lot of roleplaying there.

If the low-wis guy hilariously roleplays giving money to the town drunk for whichever sob story he's telling this week, then yeah, that could be worthwhile.

[Project_Mayhem]

I'd be more inclined to award people who don't act in character less xp, followed by confronting them if it continues, and ultimately telling them that this probably isn't the group for them.

[Glimbur]

To me, being in character is fun. I play the game for fun. Therefore, I am rewarded for being in character with fun. No other motivation is necessary. How well this generalizes to the role-playing community is left as an exercise for the reader.

[valadil]

Whenever we've done RP XP we've kept it secret. The GM decided that would be easier than dealing with players complaining it wasn't fair. While I think it would be educational to the powergamers to see how much XP the RPers earn, I can certainly understand the GM wanting to avoid a bitchfest.

[Dimers]

@OP: Another thing characters might sacrifice is their precious time. E.g. if their favorite food doesn't cost much or make deadly enemies, then it won't earn them extra XP ... but if they have to spend half the day looking for that kind of restaurant, while the other characters accomplish personally-useful stuff ...

[Sewblon]

It is a neat idea, but as written it sounds like you would be rewarding Stupid Evil behavior in Evil parties(like raping the princess in front of the royal guard to give an extreme example), which ceases to be counter-productive behavior, but remains boring behavior.

[bosssmiley]

Mmmmmmm. Delicious wheel reinvention. :smallamused:

There are already alt. XP systems that reward players for having their characters act like proper adventurers. You can get bonus XP for:

visiting iconic places in the campaign world (http://jrients.blogspot.com/2009/12/exploration.html) ("First one to the top of Stardock Mountain gets 2,000xp. No questions asked."),
finding sweet lewts (http://www.lordkilgore.com/xp-for-gold),
blowing through a king's ransom on booze, hookers and blackjack (http://jrients.blogspot.com/2008/12/party-like-its-999.html), or
burying buddies in true pharaohnic style (http://jrients.blogspot.com/2008/11/draft-cinder-house-rules-part-1.html).