Black Flame Lotus? Or...?

[Dragothien]

Hello again Comrades!

So - I face a dilemma.

After a good amount of research and a developing heavy interest in rogue/assassin types and then clerics...my desires are left unfilled due to both my opportunities to play them having been confined to single day temporary campaigns.

But! I've already got a little taste for each, and now I want to combine them. So, that being said, I started to do some research on how to combine them and I came across two PRC's:

1) Black Flame Lotus
2) Shadow Bane Stalker

Now... Before anyone tells me, I know that neither of these PRCS are exactly Ideal for my first two goals, those goals being:

1) Cleric casting/buffing as high as possible.
2) As much sneak attack as I can fit in

However, they are (PARTICULARLY black flame lotus) Supremely Ideal for the role player in me, as I love the feel/fluff of the classes..and the roleplay is important. I want to optimize, but I don't want to sacrifice roleplay to much to do it.

So..My questions are:

1.) Has anyone successfully played these classes (or a combination of them) before?

2.) What classes should I use?

3.) What sort of build progression is going to work best for me without waiting until I'm level 20 to be useful?

4.) And lastly? what sort of feats should I be paying attention too?

I know that on the clerical side of the fence Divine Meta magic and Persistent Spell are going to be very helpful to me in the way of buffing before encounters.

I know that on the assassin side of the fence I'll probably include things like craven.

Other than that I'm not really sure, but any help is appreciated.

I can tell you that just about any 3.5 and some 3.0 books are available to me to use. If at ALL possible I'd really like some advice that didn't include Tome of Battle. I know it's godly but frankly I just get so tired of the magical answer to every optimization being a dip in sword sage or whatever.

If use of something from tome of Battle is truly the only way, or it makes THAT much of a difference, then I'll consider it.

Thank you for reading, and thanks in advance for any feedback!

Thanks in advance!

[Dragothien]

Also...I should mention that if there is an option in PRC's/ class combination that does not include either of the aforementioned PRC's, I am happy to hear those suggestions as well.

[ex cathedra]

You could play an Archivist, dip in Sacred Exorcist at 8 for Turn Undead, and DMM:Persist Hunter's Eye (PHBII) to have full casting and CL/3 Sneak Attack dice.

[Zaq]

Black Flame Zealot is, if I recall (I don't have CDiv open in front of me) a 1/2 progression casting class, is it not? If that is the case, it's very much at odds with your goal of keeping your clerical casting relevant and useful.

Remember the first rule of flavor: Fluff as necessary, or as awesome. If you don't make any mechanical changes, then you don't need to use the fluff in the book. If you want to call yourself a cultist of the Black Flame, you can do so without a single level in BFZ (see also Miko's samurai status). You could easily lift the fluff wholesale and glue it to something else. Your character sheet doesn't tell you what you can and can't roleplay. Hell, I'm currently playing a character who is basically Inspector Gadget. What class is written on my character sheet? Dragonfire Adept. In my mind, I have no draconic connection, I don't want one, and no one can tell my character he has one. I simply have the abilities of one, but I'm still The Inspector. You can do the same thing.

Now, it's true that there are relatively few PrCs that advance divine casting and sneak attack, so if sneak attack is important to you (and you don't want to use the Persistent Hunter's Eye trick that aethernox suggested), then you're going to have to decide whether it's more important to have sneak attack or casting. (The general consensus is that casting is way more important, since spells give you far, far more utility than a few more d6s, and can be used to deal damage as well.) The Temple Raider of Olidammara gives divine casting and sneak attack, but it's not cleric casting (it's just its own list). Shadowbane Stalker isn't a terrible choice... personally I'd rather not trade two lost casting levels for +3d6 sneak attack, but I don't think you'll find much better (maybe in FR or Eberron, since I'm not terribly familiar with their PrCs). Spellwarp Sniper can give +2d6 "sudden raystrike" with no lost casting levels, besides the one you lost to get the sneak attack you need as a prereq. (Not the most relevant choice, but I'm trying here.) I know that The Giant has made a homebrew class that's basically the Arcane Trickster with a divine flavor.

There are plenty of arcane classes that advance almost full casting and sneak attack, so if you can beg your DM to allow you to use divine spells instead of arcane spells to qualify, that might work. The best is probably Unseen Seer, but there's also Daggerspell Mage, Arcane Trickster, and I'm pretty sure at least one more that I'm forgetting.

Honestly, I think you're best off just trying to stick with casting. You don't have to have sneak attack to be conniving, sneaky, and backstabbing. Two feats can get you Assassin's Stance, which gives +2d6 sneak attack, so there's an option.

Any of this helpful?

[Keld Denar]

You could play an Archivist, dip in Sacred Exorcist at 8 for Turn Undead, and DMM:Persist Hunter's Eye (PHBII) to have full casting and CL/3 Sneak Attack dice.

Needs more Ruby Knight Vindicator. 8/10 casting, 10/10 initating, and a bunch of cool abilities, of which the ability to HIDE in HEAVY ARMOR with no penalty. Doesn't fix the fact that you can't move silently in heavy armor, but clerics have silence on their spell list, so....cast it on a rock or small dagger or something, and drop it when you charge someone from the shadows.

[Istari]

The Divine Trickster (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/5M5QGsJ5mpbLfAHduZG.html) from the gaming section of this site sound like just what you are looking for. I don't know how great is is but it gets full spellcasting and sneak attack.

Its homebrew, but you could probably get your DM to allow it

[JeminiZero]

The feat that best fits your requirement is Sacred Outlaw: Cleric and Rogue levels stack for determining sneak attack dice. Unfortunately, its Dragon Magazine and so not likely to be permitted. It can also be found on crystal keep's feat list. Unfortunately, it requires a 2d6 sneak attack which normally means 3 rogue levels

While you may not like ToB, Swordsage might be ideal for this. 2 levels nets you:
-Assassin's stance which can qualify you for Sacred Outlaw (only if you take the 2nd swordsage level after 6 cleric levels, then your effective initiator level will be 5, qualifying you for level 3 maneuvers/stances)
-Wis bonus to AC in light armor, something good to have for a Cleric.
-And of course a few weak maneuvers. This alone may not appear to be much, but it qualifies you to gain more maneuvers from feats/items and recharge them via swordsage mechanic, which is infinitely better than the "use-once-per-fight" limitation you normally have otherwise.