[3.5]Badass Normal class (alternate fighter)

[Oslecamo]

After creating my super template fighter wich resulted in bizzarre abominations, I bring you here a (in theory) as strong version, but not supernatural.

Badass normal
A sword may not be able to destroy a world, but it can certainly destroy you.-Jake, badass normal

Some people are born with exceptional talent, and use it to stand out in the crowd, performing great deeds that others would think impossible. Others are not so lucky as to be born with special talents, and everybody would expect for them to stay average for all their lifes. But some of those "normal" people will not bow to such destiny. Trough intense training, hard work, and sheer stubborness, they rise against their destinies and carve their own path among those lucky enough to have been blessed by life. Having to always start from below and all the way to the top, badass normals end up understanding combat better than anyone else, as they experience it on all their forms.

Adventures: Badass normals adventure to develop their own skills and prove their worth to the world-and themselves. Depending on their alignment, they may take any job that they think will allow them to test and improve their own skills. The path taken is as important as the destiny, and badass normals like both hard. He would join a military group if conflict was asssured or if he had the chance to train with other powerfull warriors, but he wouldn't acept a well paid position to patrol a peacefull kingdom. Thus, badass normals are renowed for their loyalty, as they don't see much sense in taking an "easy" shortcut by cheating those with who he works for.

Characteristics: Badass normals are powerfull warriors, fully dedicated to the fight. They may be unable to perform shiny special attacks like seting their blades on fire, but their weapons still hit pretty hard. Hard constant training and learning allows them perform most basic martial feats better than anyone else, and a life of hardships ends up making them much tougher than anyone would expect for a normal mortal. Just like a barbarian channels his own rage to crush his oponents into pulp, a badass normal channels his own stubborness to keep him going trough pretty much anything.


Alignment: Badass normals tend more to the lawfull side, as good discipline greatly helps training, but chaotic badass normals aren't unheard off. As long as one is willing to work hard, he can take the path of the badass normal. Badass normals are evenly distributed on the good-evil axis. Some seek to use their skills to correct the wrongs in the world, some just seek to improve themelves, and some simply seek to crush and humiliate all those who cross his path.

Religion:Badass normals aren't very religious. They weren't blessed by life, so they don't see a lot of reasons to worship gods more than basic rituals. They also don't see much sense in praying and ceremonies to request the god's blessings, when they could be training. Still, they fully aknowledge the gods give out blessings to some lucky bastards. They just tend to try to avoid religious discussions, and will happilly agree with whatever they're told as long as they can then move on to pratical matters.

The most religious badass normals follow the motto of "The gods help those who help themselves", and will fervently defend their god's causes, depending on their alignment and preferences.

Background:Badass normals can appear from pretty much anywhere. Some are born poor people who worked all their way up from nothing. Others are rich bastards wich one would think would grow up to become fat rich aristrocats, but instead developed a taste for martial training. Most badass normals will have joined some kind of military/martial order to learn the basics. Some still will have been forced trough this path, fighting several years in an arena or forced into an army, untill escaping or earning their freedom. Thus, badass normals share no organization of their own, and it's much more common to seem them join other groups, once they prove their worth.

Races:Most badass normals come from humans, wich are known for their great stubborness and will to improve. Dwarves, who know the value of hard work very well, also acount for a great number of badass normals. Less hotblooded orcs and half-orcs who still seek a martial life will take this path also. Sometimes elves become badass normals, taking advantage of their long existence to refine combat to it's finest form, in particular archery and fencing.

Other classes:Badass normals give themselves better with individuals of classes who are more based on hard work. They apreciate a barbarian's full embrace of his own nature, the ranger's dedication to a single path, or a monk's unarmed training. Badass normals are suspect of divine and spontaneous casters. Can you really trust a power wich you didn't get by yourself? They however have respect for wizards, wich get their abilities from hard extenous study of books.

Role: Badass normals are martial specialists, in particular in the frontline, keeping the enemy under constant threat from their blades, altough many badass normals know how to provide ranged support in combat as well.


HD:D10
{TABLE]Level | BAB | Fort | Reflex | Will | Features
1| 1|+2 |+2 |+2 |Bonus feat
2| 2| +3|+3 |+3 | Bonus feat
3| 3| +3|+3 | +3|
4|4 | +4| +4| +4|Bonus feat
5|5 | +4|+4 |+4 |
6| 6/+1| +5|+5 |+5 |Bonus feat
7|7/+2 | +5|+5 |+5 |
8| 8/+3| +6| +6|+6 |Bonus feat
9| 9/+4| +6| +6| +6|
10| 10/+5| +7|+7 |+7 |Bonus feat
11| 11/+6/+1| +7|+7 |+7 |Badassery
12| 12/+7/+2| +8|+8 |+8 |Bonus feat
13| 13/+8/+3| +8| +8| +8|Badassery
14| 14/+9/+4| +9|+9 |+9 |Bonus feat
15| 15/+10/+5|+9 | +9| +9|Badassery
16| 16/+11/+6/+1| +10|+10 |+10 |Bonus feat
17|17/+12/+7/+2 | +10| +10| +10|Badassery
18| 18/+13/+8/+3| +11|+11 |+11 |Bonus feat
19| 19/+14/+9/+4| +11| +11|+11 |Badassery
20| 20/+15/+10/+5|+12 | +12| +12|Bonus feat, True badass

[/TABLE]
Skills, age and starting gold as normal fighter.



Class features:

Bonus feats As fighter, but the badass normal knows how to pull more weight from his feats. All feats received as bonus feats from the badass normal are improved in the following ways:

Blindsight:Applies to ranged attacks as well.


Weapon focus, Weapon specialization and all it's cousins(weapon supremacy, ect): now apply to all weapons the fighter is proefecient with, not just one per feat.



Cleave:If you hit an enemy in melee, you may automatically attack another adjacent enemy, whetever the first enemy drops or not. If you hit a mirror image, you may make a new attack as well. If you hit an enemy with a ranged thrown weapon, you may make a new attack again against other enemy behind the first target, with the same weapon.

Either in melee or ranged, you can't get more tha one extra attack for each "normal" attack you make.


Great cleave:Whenever you make a melee attack, you may attack up to X oponents whitin your reach, where X is half your str bonus. This doesn't trigger normal cleave.

Great fortitude: You may add +2 or your Str modifier to your fort saves, wichever is higher.

Iron Will:You may add +2 or your Con modifier to your will saves, wichever is higher.

Lighting reflexes: You may add +2 or your Con modifier to your reflex saves, wichever is higher.


Point blanck shot:You can fire in melee whitout provoking attacks of oportunity, and fire while grappled with a -4 penalty, plus the normal bonus.

Precise shot:You may add half your Dex bonus to ranged attack damage rolls if you're using a single handed ranged/thrown weapon, and your full Dex bonus if you're using a two handed ranged weapon. If you do, don't add any Str bonus to the attack.


Improved precise shot:You may add your full Dex bonus to ranged attack damage rolls if you're using a single handed ranged/thrown weapon, and 1,5 times your full Dex bonus if you're using a two handed ranged weapon. If you do, don't add any Str bonus to the attack.

Improved trip:Add +4 or half your badass normal level to all your trip atempts, wichever is higher.

Improved grapple:Add +4 or half your badass normal level to all your grapple atempts, wichever is higher.

Improved sunder:Whenever you hit an enemy, you can automatically make a sunder atempt at any object held by him (maximum of one sunder per round on each oponent). You can also sunder natural weapons and armor. If you have a magic weapon, you can sunder magic effects (works as a targeted Greater dispell magic, CL=Badass level). You can't cleave, great cleave or spring attack and get the extra sunders at the same time.


Dodge:Applies against all attacks. You get +1, or 1/4 of your badass normal level, wichever is higher.

Mobility:At the begginning of his turn, if you are affected by any effect that hinders your movement, you may save again against it. If you suceed you can ignore that effect for 1 round. If the effect didn't allow a save, then the save is 10+1/2 the HD of the creator+it's highest stat.

Spring attack:You may make one attack against every enemy you pass by, or make a full attack at the end of your movement. You can't cleave or great cleave while spring attacking.

Improved unarmed strike You add 1,5 times your str modifier to unarmed attacks, and can make sunder atempts with them.

Deflect arrows: You can deflect projectiles of any kind. If you have a magic weapon, you can deflect spells, rays and ranged touch effects targeted at you. The first attack each turn is deflected automaticaly, then you may attempt to deflect new ones if you suceed on a reflex save with DC=attack bonus of the ranged attack. Each save beyond the first takes a cumulative penalty of -5.


Combat reflexes:You don't need to be aware of the attacker. Your insticts allow you to make aoos every time an enemy in reach provokes. You also are never considered flat footed and may always act on a suprise round.

Weapon finesse: You may replace your Str modifier for your Dex modifier in melee damage rolls.

Improved critical:You can score critical hits on creatures normally invulnerable to crirical hits such as undeads and constructs, but against such creatures your critical threat range is considered normal. For example, if you took improved critical:longsword, you would threaten a critical in a 17-20 against normal creatures and on a 19-20 against critical-immune creatures.

Whirlwind attack:May be done as a standard action, and ignores concealment. Doesn't trigger cleave.

Quick draw:When you draw a melee weapon, you may add your iniative modifier to your bonus to hit and damage rolls for the first attack you make in that round.

Improved iniative:You may add your str bonus on top of your Dex bonus to your iniative.

Improved feint:You may use your Str or Dex modifier in place of your Cha modifier in bluff checks to feint in combat.

Stunning fist:You may use your str modifier instead of your wis modifier on the damage, and you may use this ability with any melee weapon you are proefecient with, in wich case you can call this feat "Stunning blow".

More feats to come.


Badassery:At 11th level, and every other level from then, the badass normal may take one badassery from the following list:


Badass armor: After thousands of hours of wearing armor, it has become literally a second skin for you. The badass normal's move speed ins't reduced by wearing heavy armor, and the max dex bonus to AC of any armor he wears is increased by his Con bonus. The badass normal also gains Dr X/-, where X is 1/4 of his armor bonus+ his full shield bonus. The badass normal also counts as wearing light armor while wearing medium/heavy armor when it would be benefetical for him.


Badass range:After countless battles, you learned how to use quick steps and lunges to threaten a large area. The badass normal reach with all weapons is increased:
lv10:+5 feets
lv15:+10 feets.
lv20:+15 feets.

In adition, all thrown weapons used by the badass normal have their range doubled.


Badass attack: The badass normal attacks faster than anyone. He may make a full attack as a standard action. If he full attacks whitout moving, he applies his full BAB to all attacks.

Badass resistance:The badass normal's body has grown specially tough after several hardships. He gains resistance X to all forms of energy, where X is his badass level, rounded down. He also gains resistance X/2 to all force effect, rounded down. He can also try to resist any effect that wouldn't normally allow a save as if it allowed a save. The DC is 10+half HD of the attacker+his highest stat modifier.

If he suceeds by 5 or less, he ignores the effect, but takes a -X penalty to all d20 rolls for 5 rounds (cumulative), where X is half the HD of the attacker. If he suceeds between 5 or 10, he takes no penalty, and if he suceeds by 10 or more, then he gains a X bonus to all his d20 rolls for 1 round, as he surges forward with renewed confidence.

Badass movement:Your tough training finally pays off, greatly increasing your stamina. The badass normal gains a bonus on all his movement speeds equal to 5xCon modifier. He can also climb and swim at half his now improved land speed. Notice that this bonus applies to any fly speed the badass normal fighter gets.

Badass threat: After years of struggling, you know better how to make other struggle. If a creature threatened by the badass normal tries to take a defensive action (like defensive casting), then the DC of suceeding is increased by the badass normal class level. The DC for tumbling past the badass normal is also increased by his class level.

In addition, flying enemies hit by your attacks drop 1 feet by point of damage taken from your attacks.


Badass experience:Some badasses discover hidden talent, and choose a new path in life, but they still keep some of their old training habits. If you multiclass, your new levels count for all your badass normal feats and badasseries you had already gained, but you don't receive any more badasseries or bonus feats.


Badass leader: Your might atracts an army of loyal minions. This works as leadership, but only atracts followers and uses Str instead of Cha. They are the race and NPC class of your choice, altough the DM may impose limitations depending on the setting. You may automaticaly organize your minions as a mob (http://www.giantitp.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129179) whitout bothering with the pre requisites. Killed followers are automatically replaced every time you visit any location with a large humanoid population.


Badass legend: Years of training allow you to quickly adapt to any situation. A number of times per day equal to your highest physical score modifier(Con, Str or Dex), you may gain any feat you qualify for as an immediate action. This extra feat lasts for 1 round. You can't activate this ability again while you have an extra feat "active".


Badass breacktrough:Nothing can stand in your way. You take down walls as you charge, magic or not, and dig your way trough fortresses if needed. Only the mightiest beasts may hope to even slow you down. When you charge, if there's an inanimate obstacle in front of you, you may make an attack as a free action against the obstacle. If you deal enough damage to destroy it, you can keep charging as if the obstacle wasn't there. If it is a magic effect (even a wall of force), and you have the improved sunder feat and are wielding a magic weapon, you may atempt to greater dispell the magic effect. Force effects can be dispelled, but the DC is +4 than normal. Your CL is equal to your Badass Normal level. If you have any bonus to sunder atempts, this bonus applies to your GDM CL.



True badass:You become a living embodiment of martial skill. You may take 20 on any d20 roll a number of times per day equal to your str modifier.

(note: actualy, I've hit a complete blanck on what the capstone ability should be. If you've got sugestions for a better idea, please point them out!)

[Temotei]

Wasn't there a feat or something? Was that you who made it?

[Oslecamo]

Wasn't there a feat or something? Was that you who made it?

If you're talking about the badass part, there was the badass substitution level, made by other person, somewhere on this forums. It had the badass normal suboption, but it applied just to commoners.

[Milskidasith]

The capstone should never be a "DM decides" thing. Additionally, this doesn't do anything to stop the normal "melee is stopped by magic easily" problem.

[Oslecamo]

The capstone should never be a "DM decides" thing.
Well, if you've got good ideas for the capstone, throw them out, I personally hit a blank on what the lv20 ability should be.



Additionally, this doesn't do anything to stop the normal "melee is stopped by magic easily" problem.

Really?

Badass resistance allows him to make saves against spells that don't allow saves. Plus good save progression.

The badass deflect arrows allows him to block any single target effect.

The badass sunder can dispel magic effects.

Badass breacktrough gives him freedom of movement against everything and even goes trough walls of force and forcecage. Badass mobility also allows him to get out of tight spots.

Badass cleave goes trough mirror images.

Badass leader allows him to create his own mob and, with some training, his own unit, wich give a lot of juicy bonus.

He can full attack after moving, and he can move fast.

If you still see any "easy" way a caster can take down this, please point it out and I'll work on solving it.

[Milskidasith]

Well, if you've got good ideas for the capstone, throw them out, I personally hit a blank on what the lv20 ability should be.

No clue, but considering most of the class is "I am immune to everything" you might as well just say "He wins D&D." Granted, he's not as broken as the wizard, but it takes him no work to automatically win at everything.


Badass resistance allows him to make saves against spells that don't allow saves. Plus good save progression.

Which merely means you use one of the many ways to have infinite DC spells. It's not hard; sanctum spell and heighten spell alone let you do it for free.


The badass deflect arrows allows him to block any single target effect.

No, only single target rays. Anything that automatically affects him still does, such as, say, Holy Word.


The badass sunder can dispel magic effects.

Which requires being into melee range.


Badass breacktrough gives him freedom of movement against everything and even goes trough walls of force and forcecage. Badass mobility also allows him to get out of tight spots.

Which is useful, true. However, do you really want to give a class constant noclip? I mean, it's basically super-etherealness.


Badass cleave goes trough mirror images.

Assuming they are within reach, which is a bad assumption to make.


Badass leader allows him to create his own mob and, with some training, his own unit, wich give a lot of juicy bonus.

And leadership let's the mage do the same, except he can just spam a low level SoD with his followers and kill you, or use them for infinite DC spells. Leadership on a mage >>> leadership on a fighter with noclip attached.


He can full attack after moving, and he can move fast.

Useful, sure, but casters can still be immune to damage easily.


If you still see any "easy" way a caster can take down this, please point it out and I'll work on solving it.

Using the same level of cheese you gave this class, I can see tons of easy ways. Leadership + Cooperative spellcasting, for instance. Easily cast two spells a round with DCs he just can't make, at absurd caster levels so you can't ignore it. Make sure all your followers are dragonblooded so they can use Wings of Cover to constantly keep you immune from anything by ignoring LoE.

Really, what's the point of this class? Sure, you gave it a bunch of absurdly cheesy goodies, but all it's going to do is make everybody but optimized casters feel completely useless, and as a thought experiment to beat casters, it still fails miserably short assuming the casters are cheesing (which, if they're fighting somebody with constant noclip and the ability to basically autosucceed at everything, they should be allowed to.)

Oh, also, the class feature that allows you to have a save against everything basically gives a free heighten spell to all spellcasters, because all their lower level spells DCs just went up, yay!

[Oslecamo]

No clue, but considering most of the class is "I am immune to everything" you might as well just say "He wins D&D." Granted, he's not as broken as the wizard, but it takes him no work to automatically win at everything.
So you meant to say he's overpowered? Compared to what? You're saying that he could outmelee a druidzilla? An optimized warblade? Codzilla? Vanilla barbarian? Soulknive? Or did I truly create something only a batman wizard can take down?



Which merely means you use one of the many ways to have infinite DC spells. It's not hard; sanctum spell and heighten spell alone let you do it for free.

No, that only means you can win D&D if you twist the english of the rules. That particular combo only works with a very cheesy interpretation of RAW. The only other ways to get super high DCs I remember demand either the alternate taint rules, wich demand DM aproval or loops to increase stats wich can be abused by any class, so the badass normal would also have infinite saves.



No, only single target rays. Anything that automatically affects him still does, such as, say, Holy Word.

Yeah, because adventurers are never good aligned.



Which requires being into melee range.

Meh, not that hard as long as you can get a fly speed. Normally geting over the 9000 defensive buffs of the wizard is the problem.



Which is useful, true. However, do you really want to give a class constant noclip? I mean, it's basically super-etherealness.

A level 19 ability. Etherealness is a 7th level spell. And casters can easily teleport before that, whitout cheese of any kind.



Assuming they are within reach, which is a bad assumption to make.

As you pointed out, I can't just put an auto win button. Using the class abilities and equipment to get whitin reach is the player's duty.



And leadership let's the mage do the same, except he can just spam a low level SoD with his followers and kill you, or use them for infinite DC spells. Leadership on a mage >>> leadership on a fighter with noclip attached.

First, it isn't true leadership. You only get the followers, so no cheesy cohort. Second, the followers are all lv1-3 and NPC class. I don't remember lv 1-3 adepts having acess to SoD at all or qualifying for cheesy DC combos.



Useful, sure, but casters can still be immune to damage easily.

Not easily, not at least when the other dude can GDP every turn.



Using the same level of cheese you gave this class, I can see tons of easy ways. Leadership + Cooperative spellcasting, for instance. Easily cast two spells a round with DCs he just can't make, at absurd caster levels so you can't ignore it. Make sure all your followers are dragonblooded so they can use Wings of Cover to constantly keep you immune from anything by ignoring LoE.

Wait what? Wings of cover is self only last time I checked. And again, the followers are NPC class, wich gives you adept at best, wich has no SoD or wings of cover at such low levels.



Really, what's the point of this class? Sure, you gave it a bunch of absurdly cheesy goodies, but all it's going to do is make everybody but optimized casters feel completely useless, and as a thought experiment to beat casters, it still fails miserably short assuming the casters are cheesing
Couldn't you just have pointed that out to begin with? You first post was just "casters own this lolz!", nothing about this curb stomping every noncaster out there. I planned to do a good class for heavily optimized games, or Tier 2-3, whatever you kids call power level nowadays.



(which, if they're fighting somebody with constant noclip and the ability to basically autosucceed at everything, they should be allowed to.)

Ignoring the fact that even a commoner can pull out a candle of invocation and go to cheese town, I don't know if I should feel honored or insulted that you claim that my class can only be defeated by stuff with cheesy loops.

And again, followers are NPC class!



Oh, also, the class feature that allows you to have a save against everything basically gives a free heighten spell to all spellcasters, because all their lower level spells DCs just went up, yay!
No, it only triggers against spells wich didn't allow a save to begin with, and hey, even by your reading, it goes trough all the infinite DCs bombos, reverting them to manageable levels! Yay!

[Siosilvar]

If you still see any "easy" way a caster can take down this, please point it out and I'll work on solving it.

Flight + Superior Invisibility. (or whatever it was)


Yeah, because adventurers are never good aligned.
Blasphemy, then.

[Milskidasith]

So you meant to say he's overpowered? Compared to what? You're saying that he could outmelee a druidzilla? An optimized warblade? Codzilla? Vanilla barbarian? Soulknive? Or did I truly create something only a batman wizard can take down?

No, I mean you intended to make him overpowered. Your intent was to make him immune to everything, so why not just say that? As for only a batman wizard taking him down: No, but without cheese it can take it down. This is bad for real play the same reason a warblade is good: The warblade is good because it takes little optimization to make one good, so anybody can play and feel useful. This is bad because, barring extreme cheese, no other class can compete, but when other classes are cheesed up this is still beatable.



No, that only means you can win D&D if you twist the english of the rules. That particular combo only works with a very cheesy interpretation of RAW. The only other ways to get super high DCs I remember demand either the alternate taint rules, wich demand DM aproval or loops to increase stats wich can be abused by any class, so the badass normal would also have infinite saves.

No, actually sanctum spell + heighten works fine using RAW, as does using cooperative spellcasting and leadership. If you want to define cheese, then please do so in a way which excludes a class that gets the ability to noclip, because talking about stuff being cheesy while this class exists is hypocritical.


Yeah, because adventurers are never good aligned.

Yes, because there aren't other versions of the spell. Purposely ignoring spells that affect different alignments doesn't make your arguments more reasonable.


Meh, not that hard as long as you can get a fly speed. Normally geting over the 9000 defensive buffs of the wizard is the problem.

You still have to debuff the wizard using sunder, which is fairly hard when you've got a flat check and there are many ways to make it harder to dispel your spells.


A level 19 ability. Etherealness is a 7th level spell. And casters can easily teleport before that, whitout cheese of any kind.


Casters can teleport, yes. They can't move through any object freely. They also can't do it infinitely, and teleportation can miss, and it takes a standard action. It's a far cry from having "I can noclip, ignore practically every effect without the caster using cheese, and get every other goody I can think of" as a class feature.


As you pointed out, I can't just put an auto win button. Using the class abilities and equipment to get whitin reach is the player's duty.

Actually, you can, being the creator. With the sheer level of absurd things you put into this, you might as well, honestly. Let them teleport as a free action and ignore any effects they choose at will.


First, it isn't true leadership. You only get the followers, so no cheesy cohort. Second, the followers are all lv1-3 and NPC class. I don't remember lv 1-3 adepts having acess to SoD at all or qualifying for cheesy DC combos.


One: It is not hard to pump your leadership score to the point where you can get higher level followers; it only takes a 5 charisma bonus at level 20 to get to epic leadership level followers, which includes sixth levels. Leadership also is any class, not just NPC classes, and the cohort was ignored for everything I stated (while your thing is NPC classes only, which makes it slightly less powerful).

Two: Precocious apprentice + level one wizard followers + cooperative spell = absurd DC, absurd CL SoDs and blasty spells. With a max leadership score using the standard table, that gets me CL 150 spells once per round, and I can even do that with adepts if you use NPC classes, just without precocious apprentice.


Not easily, not at least when the other dude can GDP every turn.

At a low rate, yes. You can dispel, sure, but it takes an attack, which has to hit buffed AC, and requires you to beat the buffed CL of the caster. It's possible, but hard, even with everything this has going for it.


Wait what? Wings of cover is self only last time I checked. And again, the followers are NPC class, wich gives you adept at best, wich has no SoD or wings of cover at such low levels.

Wings of cover isn't self only if you are dragonblooded. Leadership is not NPC only, and not low levels, except with your class. If you have a level three dragonblooded follower, you can have him use the dragonblooded only effect to provide cover to allies.


Couldn't you just have pointed that out to begin with? You first post was just "casters own this lolz!", nothing about this curb stomping every noncaster out there. I planned to do a good class for heavily optimized games, or Tier 2-3, whatever you kids call power level nowadays.

How could you not notice the fact this class is so intentionally broken? There are only two ways I can see this coming about: You are not aware of what is and is not balanced for a certain tier, or you intentionally designed it to be overpowered. I assumed the best of you, and thought it was the latter.


Ignoring the fact that even a commoner can pull out a candle of invocation and go to cheese town, I don't know if I should feel honored or insulted that you claim that my class can only be defeated by stuff with cheesy loops.

If you were not designing it to be broken, then the fact it is, is a clear design problem, not a benefit. Anybody could invent something broken, it's nothing to feel honored about. For example: The badder-ass. Level 1 class feature: This class is immune to everything but pun-pun. Should I feel honored I built something that is immune to everything but supreme cheese?


And again, followers are NPC class!


Tell me where, in the description of leadership, it says that followers are NPC only. Your leadership does, but again, the feat does not.


No, it only triggers against spells wich didn't allow a save to begin with, and hey, even by your reading, it goes trough all the infinite DCs bombos, reverting them to manageable levels! Yay!

Actually, the infinite DC combos add a flat bonus to the DC, which doesn't change anything, because it would affect the new base DC based on your hit dice. But fine, your reading works as well, it doesn't really affect anything.

[Milskidasith]

Honestly, though, I have to say the class isn't as overpowered as I said, on a second inspection. While it does get a lot of fairly broken abilities, it can still be beaten by casting save or sucks at it, just slightly less than a normal fighter. It also doesn't get too many extra attack options, though if all of his feats are as powerful as the badass feats you've listed so far he'll actually be versatile. However, all of his abilities are basically designed as being "be immune to casters" (though not particularly strong against melee, honestly), but they just don't work.

[Oslecamo]

No, I mean you intended to make him overpowered. Your intent was to make him immune to everything, so why not just say that? As for only a batman wizard taking him down: No, but without cheese it can take it down.

Thank you very much for puting words on my mouth and then critisizing them. I didn't knew you were able to read minds at distance to discover my intentions.



No, actually sanctum spell + heighten works fine using RAW, as does using cooperative spellcasting and leadership. If you want to define cheese, then please do so in a way which excludes a class that gets the ability to noclip, because talking about stuff being cheesy while this class exists is hypocritical.

Why bother? If you're the kind of dude who makes all interpretations in favor of the caster, then we're not going anywhere. Meh, at least I forced you to use noncore stuff.



You still have to debuff the wizard using sunder, which is fairly hard when you've got a flat check and there are many ways to make it harder to dispel your spells.
Targeted GDP affects all spells on the target, so well, something is going down on each attack when the wizard has 20 buffs on him.



Casters can teleport, yes. They can't move through any object freely. They also can't do it infinitely, and teleportation can miss, and it takes a standard action. It's a far cry from having "I can noclip, ignore practically every effect without the caster using cheese, and get every other goody I can think of" as a class feature.

19th level. Caster has time stop. Polymorph line. Shapefreakingchange. Run away to another plane. And you complain about noclip?



One: It is not hard to pump your leadership score to the point where you can get higher level followers; it only takes a 5 charisma bonus at level 20 to get to epic leadership level followers, which includes sixth levels.

Oh, yeah, my class sucks because it cannot compete with a overoptimized caster using the most broken splatbook in existance, oh woe me!



Two: Precocious apprentice + level one wizard followers + cooperative spell = absurd DC, absurd CL SoDs and blasty spells. With a max leadership score using the standard table, that gets me CL 150 spells once per round, and I can even do that with adepts if you use NPC classes, just without precocious apprentice.

And how are you lugging over one hundred squishy wizards behind you again(assuming of course you have wizards and not adepts)? And replacing them when they die when a random monster breathes over them? And making them all win iniative so they can shoot bevore the other dude moves?

Plus ALL the followers need to be able to actually cast the spell. And only uncapped damage is a 3rd level one. And SoD start at 4.



Tell me where, in the description of leadership, it says that followers are NPC only. Your leadership does, but again, the feat does not.


Followers are similar to cohorts, except they’re generally low-level NPCs




How could you not notice the fact this class is so intentionally broken? There are only two ways I can see this coming about: You are not aware of what is and is not balanced for a certain tier, or you intentionally designed it to be overpowered. I assumed the best of you, and thought it was the latter.

Sorcerers are T2. They can use time stop and teleport polymorph and friends and stuff. I'm afraid it's you who has no idea what is balanced for each tier.

Now, any usefull sugestion, or will you keep throwing bombos that only work if you bribe the DM for him to ignore the parts of the rules you don't like?

[Temotei]

Why are you comparing the class to a caster? Compare it to a tier three class for balance. If it completely schools it, then it's overpowered for sure. If it beats it, but barely, maybe try and scale it down a tiny bit and go from there.

Also, Oslecamo, you failed a Spot check.

[Milskidasith]

Thank you very much for puting words on my mouth and then critisizing them. I didn't knew you were able to read minds at distance to discover my intentions.

As I said later in the post, it was either assume you tried to make a powerful caster killer melee, or you had no clue what you were doing with balance. I assumed the better one.


Why bother? If you're the kind of dude who makes all interpretations in favor of the caster, then we're not going anywhere. Meh, at least I forced you to use noncore stuff.

This isn't ruling in favor of the caster, this is using something that works by RAW to beat you. That's like saying "Glitterdust blinds you" is ruling in favor of the caster; it's not, it's how things are written.


Targeted GDP affects all spells on the target, so well, something is going down on each attack when the wizard has 20 buffs on him.


I know that. Please don't assume I don't know how things work. It will knock some buffs down, but it's not necessarily going to knock the right buffs down.


19th level. Caster has time stop. Polymorph line. Shapefreakingchange. Run away to another plane. And you complain about noclip?

Yes. Why? Because if this is intended to be balanced with any noncaster (T3), it's broken, and if this is intended to be a wizard killer, it fails. Not only that, but it's specifically mentioned to be able to get around magical effects, which I can only assume means the class was designed to be an anti-caster.


Oh, yeah, my class sucks because it cannot compete with a overoptimized caster using the most broken splatbook in existance, oh woe me!

Please don't strawman. It's bad because it can neither compete with cheesed up casters, nor be competed against by other sources of melee. Honestly, is a class that needs casters throwing cheesy-high DC spells balanced, at all? I'm not saying it sucks, I'm saying it's unbalanced.


And how are you lugging over one hundred squishy wizards behind you again(assuming of course you have wizards and not adepts)? And replacing them when they die when a random monster breathes over them? And making them all win iniative so they can shoot bevore the other dude moves?


How am I doing all of this? Easy. It's a small leadership penalty that doesn't stack to have a follower die, and you can replace them in town. As for actually keeping them alive, you don't really need to... you can sustain high casualties and still have powerful spells.



Plus ALL the followers need to be able to actually cast the spell. And only uncapped damage is a 3rd level one. And SoD start at 4.

Even in core there are spells that are save or dies at second level (Hold Person, though this class is immune). It's easily possible to get a splatbook save or die at second level, or just cast multiple high DC capped damage spells.


Followers are similar to cohorts, except they’re generally low-level NPCs

Generally. Not always.


Sorcerers are T2. They can use time stop and teleport polymorph and friends and stuff. I'm afraid it's you who has no idea what is balanced for each tier.

Sorcerers are T2, yes. I'm afraid you don't know what T2 means. T2 means you can easily break the game in half, but only in one way because you have limited tricks. T1 and T2 are equal in power, in fact, it's just that T1 has far more variety in their gamebreaking tricks.


Now, any usefull sugestion, or will you keep throwing bombos that only work if you bribe the DM for him to ignore the parts of the rules you don't like?

My useful suggestion: Rudeness, strawmanning, ad hominem attacks, and ignoring existing criticism are not going to help you balance the class. What I would suggest is scrapping all of the "You become immune to X" abilities, because that's the exact reason wizards can be overpowered, and if your intent is to design the class to be weaker than them, then giving them similar abilities is not a good idea.


Why are you comparing the class to a caster? Compare it to a tier three class for balance. If it completely schools it, then it's overpowered for sure. If it beats it, but barely, maybe try and scale it down a tiny bit and go from there.

Also, Oslecamo, you failed a Spot check.

I'm comparing it to a caster because, at the time of posting, I assumed it was meant to be a caster killer (with it's abilities mostly being specific ways to be immune to a lot of general ways casters were OP, including specific clauses in abilities for magic spells).

However, compared to melee... it's fairly broken. Easy reflex saves to ignore multiple attacks per round, extra reach, extra movespeed, spring attack allowing you to double your speed (rather than half) and full attack, etc. basically means it gets all the melee goodies you get from multiclassing for free and better than anything else. Basically, you get to ubercharge for free, but get more bonus goodies on top of that and can ignore any of the problems ubercharging normally has because you get noclip.

[FlamingKobold]

Before I judge whether or not it's "Balanced," I need something to balance it against. What tier do you want this to be? T1-T2 to take out casters? In this case, it might not be enough. However, if you try to balance it against anywhere else, you start owning everyone, because you're immune. If you make it to neutralize T1-T2 classes, even if it's not quite powerful enough to do it, that means it's a very high T3, making it able to kill anything else.

By the way you shouldn't insult Milskidasith, as the title says PEACH. Note what the letter H stands for.

[Temotei]

I'm comparing it to a caster because, at the time of posting, I assumed it was meant to be a caster killer (with it's abilities mostly being specific ways to be immune to a lot of general ways casters were OP, including specific clauses in abilities for magic spells).

However, compared to melee... it's fairly broken. Easy reflex saves to ignore multiple attacks per round, extra reach, extra movespeed, spring attack allowing you to double your speed (rather than half) and full attack, etc. basically means it gets all the melee goodies you get from multiclassing for free and better than anything else. Basically, you get to ubercharge for free, but get more bonus goodies on top of that and can ignore any of the problems ubercharging normally has because you get noclip.

Alright.

Oslecamo, stop being thickheaded. We all know casters can be overpowered, and it's not a great thing. Having a mage-killer is a good concept. Having a mage-killer that just gets arbitrary immunities and powers based on stopping casters' class features is just lame. Review the class, take away super-immunities, and replace them with mettle and evasion, give some bonuses to saves against spells and spell-like effects, etc. Don't go: "Fighter gains immunity to a 'bunch of stuff.'"

[Oslecamo]

Munchkenery discussion nº458798



This isn't ruling in favor of the caster, this is using something that works by RAW to beat you. That's like saying "Glitterdust blinds you" is ruling in favor of the caster; it's not, it's how things are written.

As we'll see ahead, you're ruling in favor of the caster a LOT of times.




Yes. Why? Because if this is intended to be balanced with any noncaster (T3), it's broken, and if this is intended to be a wizard killer, it fails. Not only that, but it's specifically mentioned to be able to get around magical effects, which I can only assume means the class was designed to be an anti-caster.
Because casters totally are the only things in the universe able to use magic, right?



Please don't strawman.

Please don't ignore the basic game rules. Fair deal huh?



It's bad because it can neither compete with cheesed up casters, nor be competed against by other sources of melee. Honestly, is a class that needs casters throwing cheesy-high DC spells balanced, at all? I'm not saying it sucks, I'm saying it's unbalanced.

Then state what you think it's balanced. You still didn't pick a single melee build for comparation, just bombos that don't work at all and if they worked noncasters could do them as well.



How am I doing all of this? Easy. It's a small leadership penalty that doesn't stack to have a follower die, and you can replace them in town.

Really? Where does it say that? I only see a line saying you get new followers when you level up.



As for actually keeping them alive, you don't really need to... you can sustain high casualties and still have powerful spells.

You still need to win iniative with all of them, and are sacrificing your mobility, one of the main caster advantages.



Even in core there are spells that are save or dies at second level (Hold Person, though this class is immune).
Only clerics and bards get them at 2nd level. And they cannot pick precocious aprentice.



It's easily possible to get a splatbook save or die at second level, or just cast multiple high DC capped damage spells.

Then EVERYBODY can pick up leadership and replicate that combo, so it's no longer a class problem. Hurrah! Assuming you find your non existant save or dies of course.



Generally. Not always.

See, this is munchkenery. You pick up the most broken interpretation. Again, we're not going anywhere with this. It's the DMs duty to decide what's right in this kind of situation, and I believe no sane DM would allow that.


Relevant discussion



Sorcerers are T2, yes. I'm afraid you don't know what T2 means. T2 means you can easily break the game in half, but only in one way because you have limited tricks. T1 and T2 are equal in power, in fact, it's just that T1 has far more variety in their gamebreaking tricks.

Considering that I meant to create something between T2 and T3, like I had already pointed out and you ignored, great for me!



My useful suggestion: Rudeness, strawmanning, ad hominem attacks, and ignoring existing criticism are not going to help you balance the class.

Only following your example, good sir. It was you who jumped out of the gate with bombos out of nowhere.



What I would suggest is scrapping all of the "You become immune to X" abilities, because that's the exact reason wizards can be overpowered, and if your intent is to design the class to be weaker than them, then giving them similar abilities is not a good idea.

I've google searched. I cannot find any immunity in my class. It can fail with bad rolls. That is not immunity in any book I ever seen.




I'm comparing it to a caster because, at the time of posting, I assumed it was meant to be a caster killer (with it's abilities mostly being specific ways to be immune to a lot of general ways casters were OP, including specific clauses in abilities for magic spells).

There's these things called "monsters". Monsters many times have these things called "spell like abilities". Wich are indeed very strong, and are indeed very similar to caster abilities, but are not exclusive to them.



However, compared to melee... it's fairly broken. Easy reflex saves to ignore multiple attacks per round,
Only ranged attacks. And even then a warblade who dips any melee class for longbow proefeciency and then takes time stands still can breack his defense.



extra reach, extra movespeed, spring attack allowing you to double your speed (rather than half) and full attack, etc. basically means it gets all the melee goodies you get from multiclassing for free and better than anything else.

Really? What about the crusader who doesn't die and can make a super charge dealing hundreds of damage? Or the frenzied berseker who cannot be killed by damage? And what's exactly the problem of being strong whitout multiclassing?



Basically, you get to ubercharge for free, but get more bonus goodies on top of that and can ignore any of the problems ubercharging normally has because you get noclip.

And the warblade gets sudden leap, and the swordsage gets the other dimensional jump powers.


EDIT:But whatever. Clearly I'm atracting all the "noncasters can't have nice things!" crowd. This is slowly turning into a flame war and I'm starting to regret even starting this thread.

Still, thank you for your time everybody. Going to sleep now.

[Milskidasith]

As we'll see ahead, you're ruling in favor of the caster a LOT of times.

No, the example I provided was strictly by RAW.


Because casters totally are the only things in the universe able to use magic, right?

What does this have to do with my statement? When you gave the thing a bunch of immunities (which were explicitly non magical, actually), I just figured it was meant to be a mage killer. I never complained about the fact that it's magical.


Please don't ignore the basic game rules. Fair deal huh?

I haven't. The combo I posted works by RAW, unambiguously. Yes, it's broken. Yes, Sanctum Spell lets you cheese it up. So does this class!


Then state what you think it's balanced. You still didn't pick a single melee build for comparation, just bombos that don't work at all and if they worked noncasters could do them as well.

Everything I've posted works. You keep disputing that it doesn't, but it does. Please tell me where in cooperative metamagic it says you can't use 100+ casters to get a 100+ DC spell.


Really? Where does it say that? I only see a line saying you get new followers when you level up.


I am fairly certain the line you are looking for is in the PHB, but not in the SRD.


You still need to win iniative with all of them, and are sacrificing your mobility, one of the main caster advantages.

Having a bunch of other casters along with you doesn't lower your personal mobility during a fight, nor does it disallow you from delaying. Sure, if you want to kill them all you can (thanks to your super-cleave, extra reach, and essentially having thicket of blades up all the time), but that doesn't affect the caster.


Only clerics and bards get them at 2nd level. And they cannot pick precocious aprentice.

There are still plenty of good spells, and you can cheese it up to get higher level spells (Kobolds).


Then EVERYBODY can pick up leadership and replicate that combo, so it's no longer a class problem. Hurrah! Assuming you find your non existant save or dies of course.

Yes, everybody can. So what? The entire point is that, if this was meant to be a caster killer (which it's not) it fails. As for being a balanced melee class, it's not. Also, if you really want a save or die... have them all band together and cast scorching rays. With 10 11th level castings of it, you get 40 4d6 ranged touch attacks against you; you're going to stop using your infinite deflection against those eventually.


See, this is munchkenery. You pick up the most broken interpretation. Again, we're not going anywhere with this. It's the DMs duty to decide what's right in this kind of situation, and I believe no sane DM would allow that.


I am using RAW only. Your using "Rules as I want to be played" does not apply. Your class fits neither of the possible descriptions I can see it being intended as: "Mage killer" or "Balanced fighter fix."


Considering that I meant to create something between T2 and T3, like I had already pointed out and you ignored, great for me!

This isn't T2. Granted, it doesn't have amazing attack options, but it has absurd defenses and can essentially say "I'm immune" to a bunch of random things. It's quite probably T1, when played smartly, just because you can be immune to most everything except melee attacks, and on those you can ignore defenses and kill most everybody (and with Great Cleave, you can hit any two targets until one of them dies or you miss a high number attacks, so you OHKO them).

Even more, not only does it break the game with martial prowess (which puts it at T2) it gets an ability to change it's feats every day... which means it can break the game a different way every day, just like wizards (and assuming you replace most fighter feats with badass feats, with just as many immunities and "no save, you just die" abilities). All that on the best chassis in the game (good saves, BAB, HD, amazing class features, and a free set of 11 supercharged feats to switch around per day.)


Only following your example, good sir. It was you who jumped out of the gate with bombos out of nowhere.

I never strawmanned you or used ad hominem attacks. I did criticize your class harshly, but A: it deserves it and B: you did type PEACH on your post.


I've google searched. I cannot find any immunity in my class. It can fail with bad rolls. That is not immunity in any book I ever seen.

It has a flat reflex DC to avoid ranged attacks (which is rather low; I can easily deflect three per round at level 20 unless you roll a 1, and automatically avoids the first every round, for a grand total of four attacks, which happens to be all of a full attack (Immunity!). It has immunity to... well, any obstacle while charging (Immunity!). It ignores 10 points of ability damage on any ability damaging attack (Not immunity, but damn close.) You are immune to any feat that would prevent an AoO, including any kind of improved X feat, which means other meleers can't do anything except whack away at you.


There's these things called "monsters". Monsters many times have these things called "spell like abilities". Wich are indeed very strong, and are indeed very similar to caster abilities, but are not exclusive to them.

And? Are you actually going to argue with me over the fact I admitted I made an assumption about the focus of the class? What are you trying to prove, that I was lying and didn't mistake this for being built as a caster killer?


Only ranged attacks. And even then a warblade who dips any melee class for longbow proefeciency and then takes time stands still can breack his defense.


So your argument to countering the defence is "If a 17+ level member of a specific class focuses on a specific discipline, he can use a specific ability to break through the defense?" Even that isn't guaranteed; if you optimize saves, you can fairly easily beat the DC required to deflect eight attacks (well, you can get more attacks than that, sure, but if your full attack routine goes from 12 to 4 at best, it's a pretty strong defense).


Really? What about the crusader who doesn't die and can make a super charge dealing hundreds of damage? Or the frenzied berseker who cannot be killed by damage? And what's exactly the problem of being strong whitout multiclassing?

Can be done, and can be done, with this class. As for being strong without multiclassing, that's not a problem. The problem is, the class gets basically everything you could want from all the melee classes, gives them more abilities, and packs them into one class. It's like you gestalted every melee class together to make this, and then gave it better bonus feats. And let it switch them every day, making them as varied as wizards (almost.)


And the warblade gets sudden leap, and the swordsage gets the other dimensional jump powers.


Isn't sudden leap just the ability to make a jump check with a bonus or as if you had been running? I can't recall. That's a far cry from noclip.


EDIT:But whatever. Clearly I'm atracting all the "noncasters can't have nice things!" crowd. This is slowly turning into a flame war and I'm starting to regret even starting this thread.

You asked for PEACH, and I EACH'd. You are the one who made ad hominem attacks on me.

[Flickerdart]

This isn't "noncasters get nice things" so much as "noncasters get all the nice things". This thing puts the Lightning Warrior to shame.

I would, personally, cut down the feat progression to a Psychic Warrior's, and make all the "Badass" abilities available like the Rogue's Special Abilities: after a certain level, and only as a few chosen from a larger list. It would still be a melee juggernaut, but the more limited choices would make the character less of a mish-mash of immunities and more of an interesting class. It also looks like you've attempted to tack some fluff onto this class. Either flesh it out completely or remove it, because it feels, in my opinion, very awkward. As well, I would make many of the abilities function off DEX or CON instead of STR - it makes no sense that the character's STR applies to his Dodge, but a true badass should have a chance at being a tough badass or a fast badass, not just a pile of muscles.

As it stands, this class is immeasurably more powerful than any melee class published by WotC, and this power doesn't come with the elegance of a class that justifies it. It's the Smug Snake (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SmugSnake) to the Badass's Magnificent Bastard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard) - it just doesn't measure up to what it sets out to do. When people see interesting and powerful homebrew, as I have found, they'll say "Wow, I want to play this!". But such homebrew has to justify its power with finesse. People don't want to play it because it makes numbers big, they want to play it because it does so in an interesting way, and the power just makes the concept be effective. Your Badass Normal has no such interest, just a bunch of incredibly unbalanced abilities. There is potential here, but it's buried under an attitude of more, more, more!

[Origomar]

this is meant to be an overpowered fighter right?

[Temotei]

But whatever. Clearly I'm atracting all the "noncasters can't have nice things!" crowd. This is slowly turning into a flame war and I'm starting to regret even starting this thread.

This isn't really a good thing to say before thanking us for our time.

This is probably a little uncalled for, but I think you were expecting everyone on here to go, "Oh my! This is a pretty great class! I would word this differently, but I'm definitely using this! The class would be fun." Unfortunately, we can't say that, because it wouldn't be as fun to just take this class with no real fluff, and a bunch of things that just make this class purely better than every other melee/ranged/non-magical class out there than to take a class that actually has reasons for power, like the factotum, or...the wizard. :smallamused:

[Krazddndfreek]

I literally took one look at the list of feat modifications, and I stopped short on cleave. While I'm sure there are many more things that make this class super broken, especially when compared to Tier 3 classes, Cleave is cheese without making the effort to find any loopholes. Seriously, as long as you have two enemies in front of you, you can keep attacking till one of them dies or you miss.

[Milskidasith]

I literally took one look at the list of feat modifications, and I stopped short on cleave. While I'm sure there are many more things that make this class super broken, especially when compared to Tier 3 classes, Cleave is cheese without making the effort to find any loopholes. Seriously, as long as you have two enemies in front of you, you can keep attacking till one of them dies or you miss.

Take Great Cleave and surround yourself with your slaves followers, hit one nonlethally, take your free attacks in a circle of your followers, then use the massive number of free attacks you just got to obliterate anything.

[Temotei]

Take Great Cleave and surround yourself with your slaves followers, hit one nonlethally, take your free attacks in a circle of your followers, then use the massive number of free attacks you just got to obliterate anything.

Then hug them and apologize so you can keep that Neutral Good alignment?

[Latronis]

I wish you people would stop linking tvtropes, it's too damn distracting and now im late for work again

[Temotei]

I wish you people would stop linking tvtropes, it's too damn distracting and now im late for work again

Goooood...now we can move on to delay everyone else...:redcloak:

[KBF]

Wait, so the class gets.. Everything any melee character ever wanted? Radically improved and overpowered 'feats'?

Oh wait. Never mind guys, it's not OP. Look, it's missing something vitally important to be able to contribute or even survive.

It's missing a familiar.

[Temotei]

Wait, so the class gets.. Everything any melee character ever wanted? Radically improved and overpowered 'feats'?

Oh wait. Never mind guys, it's not OP. Look, it's missing something vitally important to be able to contribute or even survive.

It's missing a familiar.

Leadership for the win. :smalltongue:

[KBF]

Leadership for the win. :smalltongue:

Oh come on. Leadership isn't a better, godlike solution. What good is an army? What will you do without a raven assisting you? Or even a snake?! Start thinking before you post.

[Temotei]

Oh come on. Leadership isn't a better, godlike solution. What good is an army? What will you do without a raven assisting you? Or even a snake?! Start thinking before you post.

I apologize. I will surely reconsider my posts before putting them on the boards, for they profane them. I bow to you, sir.

[Witty Username]

This class doesn't feel right. I think boosting damage and have the ability to cut(smash,pierce) though Immunities and resistances would be more appropriate.

What does PEACH mean?

[Krazddndfreek]

I think it means Please Evaluate And Correct Helpfully. That's actually a guess, but its a pretty good guess, no?:smallbiggrin:

[Temotei]

This class doesn't feel right. I think boosting damage and have the ability to cut(smash,pierce) though Immunities and resistances would be more appropriate.

What does PEACH mean?

Please evaluate and critique honestly. There are some other interpretations, but they all mean the same thing, essentially.

[Krazddndfreek]

Darn, I was close.

[Oslecamo]

This is probably a little uncalled for, but I think you were expecting everyone on here to go, "Oh my! This is a pretty great class! I would word this differently, but I'm definitely using this! The class would be fun."

I was expecting you would point out wich abilities you tought were overpowered and why, like Flickerdart did, not just "This totally sucks, here's a caster bombo that noncasters can actually do as well!", but clearly that was silly of me.



Unfortunately, we can't say that, because it wouldn't be as fun to just take this class with no real fluff, and a bunch of things that just make this class purely better than every other melee/ranged/non-magical class out there than to take a class that actually has reasons for power, like the factotum, or...the wizard. :smallamused:

See, this is the "Noncasters can't have nice things!" mentality I was talking about. What makes the wizard and factotum more qualified for power than anyone else?

And if anyone still cares, changed the cleave thingy and made the badass abilities only available from level 11 onward, making you also able to only pick up pick 5 badasseries. Badass breacktrough nerfed. Imp grapple and trip nerfed.

Ideas for new badasseries or changing old ones are welcome. Cheap philosophy will be ignored.


Flickerdart:I made all the abilities strenght based to reduce MaD. This is, a swordsage can easily get away with pathetic str and get dex to damage and concentration skill to all his saves.

[Milskidasith]

I was expecting you would point out wich abilities you tought were overpowered and why, like Flickerdart did, not just "This totally sucks, here's a caster bombo that noncasters can actually do as well!", but clearly that was silly of me.

Yay for ad hominem potshots! I pointed out why the class was bad: It has a laundry list of immunities, built in infinite damage combos (two enemies + cleave = one is automatically dead and the other is hit a good bit), and gets every melee goodie that other classes want anyway. Do you want me to specifically go and complain about every broken ability? I can probably show how they can all be broken to hell and back if you want.


See, this is the "Noncasters can't have nice things!" mentality I was talking about. What makes the wizard and factotum more qualified for power than anyone else?


You kind of completely missed the point he was making: They are qualified for power because the fluff kind of backs them up being powerful. There's no fluff to this class, and no reason that being really badass gives you noclip (though that was removed), or any reason for why you can muscle your way into getting an army.

[Oslecamo]

I pointed out why the class was bad: It has a laundry list of immunities, built in infinite damage combos (two enemies + cleave = one is automatically dead and the other is hit a good bit)
No, you misread the ability, as I included a clause to stop an enemy from being hit more than once per cleave from the begginning, but it seems you're too busy shouting cheap philosophy to notice.

As for immunities, yes, please point them out, as only the breacktrough could be considered immunity, and I already took care of it.



and gets every melee goodie that other classes want anyway. Do you want me to specifically go and complain about every broken ability? I can probably show how they can all be broken to hell and back if you want.

Yes please. And please use my updated version.



You kind of completely missed the point he was making: They are qualified for power because the fluff kind of backs them up being powerful. There's no fluff to this class, and no reason that being really badass gives you noclip (though that was removed), or any reason for why you can muscle your way into getting an army.

Badass normal. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BadassNormal) And if you don't know why being badass allows you to be powerfull and popular, then this class isn't for you.

[DracoDei]

The feat improvements would be clearer if you made it a seperate class feature they get at level 1.

Does badass resistance allow you a save to walk through a Wall of Force?

PROBABLY will add more as I read more...

[Flickerdart]

Flickerdart:I made all the abilities strenght based to reduce MaD. This is, a swordsage can easily get away with pathetic str and get dex to damage and concentration skill to all his saves.
While with classes like Monk and Paladin, high stats are a requirement in order to not suck, for this guy, the abilities would be more like rewards for having high stats. He is by no means weak without most of those abilities, but having to work a little to be more badass seems to be fitting. Normals need to have their stats make sense, they can't just "CHA to everything".

[Milskidasith]

No, you misread the ability, as I included a clause to stop an enemy from being hit more than once per cleave from the begginning, but it seems you're too busy shouting cheap philosophy to notice.

Your wording said once "per cleave." The wording is vague and could imply either once per round (which is what you should say), or once every time you get a cleave attempt.


As for immunities, yes, please point them out, as only the breacktrough could be considered immunity, and I already took care of it.

I already stated it, but I'll state them again.
You are immune to one ranged attack per round, and are 95% immune to the next three with light dex focus and a cloak of resistance. Badass threat makes you immune to any kind of special melee attack because you get an attack of opportunity against them, which stops them.


Yes please. And please use my updated version.

See above. But let me go through the feats that are broken:

Great Cleave should make sure it is clear you can only attack somebody once per round, because per cleave could just mean every time you get an attack caused by cleave, which still means you get infinite attacks.

Improved Sunder: Not that breaking loot is a good thing, but doubling your attacks per round with one feat (even if the attacks are used to sunder) is pretty broken, especially if the sunder attempts can be combined with cleave.

Dodge: Why is strength used for dodging?

Spring Attack: It's pounce, basically.

Deflect Arrows: I've already said why this is broken; even light optimization can make you mostly immune to full attacks and require you to roll <5 and <10 for the fifth and sixth ranged attack in a round. Combine this with badass threat to be immune to melee (or at least better at it), and you've got a melee god.

Badass Reach: Doubled reach can quickly get problematic when combined with already reaching weapons and large size, though since D&D multiplication is weird, it winds up being tripled reach on a reach weapon. Still, you can easily enough get 30 foot reach with just enlarge person and a reach weapon, and anybody within that range can't do anything for fear of your AoO + great cleaving everybody else routine, which would kill everybody within 30 feet.

Badass movement: With the strength focus needed for this class you could easily get a 60+ bonus to all forms of speed (is that applied to your new swim speed, by the way, or is it half of the new land speed; the wording is vague). Combine that with Spring Attack and you get full attacks against anything within a few hundred feat and then great cleave (cleave is already great, if a heavy feat investment; the badass version is just absurd. Also, yes, I know that you meant for great cleave to be one against each enemy, but that's not how it's worded, and even with that you still get massive numbers of bonus attacks against everything in range), everybody else in range, easily.

Badass breakthrough: It's still noclip (against non magical effects; you can't really get through magical effects consistently with your low CL), assuming you've optimized strength.

So those are the problems, really. Free attacks, nigh immunity to ranged attacks (OK, a 5% chance for the second, third, and fourth attacks to not be negated, assuming a little bit of save enhancement, with a decent but not amazing chance for the next three attacks after that to be negated), having massive reach, making any melee tactic besides full attacking against you irrelevant, being able to full attack anything within your range easily, beating other melee classes even at just full attacking with your full attack bonus, etc.

Basically, it gets everything melee could want, then shuts down ranged no matter how good they are (An epic archer shooting a full attack of four "arrows of slay that badass normal and his stupid deflection ability" +20 has the same chance to be fully deflected as four level one goblins throwing rocks at you; the reflex save should probably be against the attack roll, with a penalty as normal), and gets to shut down all the goodies other melee classes have to work towards.


Badass normal. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BadassNormal) And if you don't know why being badass allows you to be powerfull and popular, then this class isn't for you.

Tautologies do not make good fluff. You're badass because you have these abilities, but you have these abilities because you are badass. Where does it start? The wizard has a clear chain of fluff; they study magic, practice it, and command it. With this, I don't know if you're such a badass that you get these abilities, or if you just have these abilities out of nowhere and get labelled a badass because of it. It's kind of like the chicken and the egg.

Anyway, really, two words of fluff and a tvtropes article, even if it wasn't a tautology, isn't exactly great as far as fluff goes.

[Temotei]

Milskidasith got my point perfectly. Other classes are "qualified," as you say, for power because they have real fluff that justifies it. Anyways, this class is more powerful than a factotum, but I would never consider taking this over the factotum. A name and some small bits don't make fluff. Add a whole section with adventures, alignment, other classes, etc. If there's going to be fluff, make there be fluff. If there's not, don't have any at all, although fluff is preferred.

[Yakk]

Issues:
Offence boosts are the Cleave chain (which needs rewording), Badass threat (which simply says "nullify the fun toys your opponent has!"), and movement. And maybe breakthrough.

Zzz?

Everything is tied to Strength, even if it doesn't make much sense. Just because many classes have SAD, doesn't mean you have to as well.

Badass resistance is poorly worded. It contains multiple powerful effects. It can turn "no save" spells into spells with a lower save than a "save" spell has.

Doubling things (like reach) is problematic.

Badass armor is horribly worded. Max dex being strength ... is "no max dex bonus"? The 1/4 thing is strange -- why 1/4?

Legend is just an annoying paperwork problem (as are all "pick anything from any book and rebuild your character, every day!). Just because clerics have this problem, doesn't mean you should. And how is Legend related to swapping feats?

Breakthrough seems somewhat strange for a level 11 (Ex) ability. You lack a caster level to make greater dispell work (as other posters have indirectly pointed out).

...

I'd avoid "veto" powers as a matter of taste. Instead of vetoing an opponents action, what if you mitigated it? Try to set it up so that when someone casts a spell at you that is "save or lose" or "save or suck", instead of saying "no, the spell doesn't work", try "I don't lose or suck, but it does harm me".

Find some way to mix defence and offence into each "bene".

[Oslecamo]

Flickerdart:Redid many of the abilities to work with either Con or Dex. You can now also make a dex based ranged badass normal.

Temotei221:Fine. There's your full fluff. I'll even add an image if I find something apropriate.

Milskidasith:Now that was helpfull! Did a major overhaul of the class. New improved feats, redone the already existing ones, special abilities based on other stats than str, just one issue:

Spring attack=pounce-What's the problem here exactly? Pretty much every other melee class but the paladin gets easy pounce noadays. Anyway, nerfed spring attack to just normal speed.

If I missed anything on the overhaul, let me now.


Issues:
Offence boosts are the Cleave chain (which needs rewording), Badass threat (which simply says "nullify the fun toys your opponent has!"), and movement. And maybe breakthrough.

Zzz?

Added a bunch of ofensive "improved" feats. Will try to make new ofensive badasseries when I remember something else.



Everything is tied to Strength, even if it doesn't make much sense. Just because many classes have SAD, doesn't mean you have to as well.

Yes, I got the point, took care of that.



Badass resistance is poorly worded. It contains multiple powerful effects.

Nerfed, but let me know if the wording still needs work.



It can turn "no save" spells into spells with a lower save than a "save" spell has.

Wait, what? As Milskidasith pointed out, the DC should be as high as if you were casting your highest level spell slot.



Doubling things (like reach) is problematic.

Changed for static bonus.



Badass armor is horribly worded. Max dex being strength ... is "no max dex bonus"? The 1/4 thing is strange -- why 1/4?

New wording, based on Con, and 1/4 well, because it feels right. Also it's the one UA sugested for armor as DR if I'm not mistaken.



Legend is just an annoying paperwork problem (as are all "pick anything from any book and rebuild your character, every day!). Just because clerics have this problem, doesn't mean you should. And how is Legend related to swapping feats?

Changed the ability for something less book keeping.



Breakthrough seems somewhat strange for a level 11 (Ex) ability. You lack a caster level to make greater dispell work (as other posters have indirectly pointed out).

It was suposed to be the same as sunder(your BN lv). Updated that.




I'd avoid "veto" powers as a matter of taste. Instead of vetoing an opponents action, what if you mitigated it? Try to set it up so that when someone casts a spell at you that is "save or lose" or "save or suck", instead of saying "no, the spell doesn't work", try "I don't lose or suck, but it does harm me".

There's a bazillion diferent lose/suck spell effects out there. Well, did something like that anyway. Mobility now only protects you for one round for each save, and badass resistance grants you a penalty if you don't save high enough.



Find some way to mix defence and offence into each "bene".
By bene you mean the badasseries, the improved feats, or both?