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The Vorpal Tribble
2010-01-03, 04:29 PM
Ok, so there is a campaign I've been designing for some time. Can get a general guist about it from the link in my signature.

Basically the characters are going on an epic quest (not epic leveled... mostly) into the harsh, unforgiving wilderness. The beginning will provide them with very little in the way of magical trinkets, items of power, or even the materials for such.

In fact, ideally the game would be run with encounters that may be well out of their league. I mean, you're out in the boonies, knowingly going out into the unknown of a world where most folks congregate in the most docile parts of the world just so they don't freeze to death/get mauled by creatures grown tough by the conditions/targets for the desperate.

I also roll weather effects completely at random for a year in advance. Natural weather that is. Looking at my rolls there are literally two blizzards several days long separated by only a day.

I want a game that is not only potentially unfair, but totally at random... like a REAL quest would be.

Now, for myself, this would be fun, but I realize not everyone is me. How do you make this fun and rewarding while also keeping them out of their comfort zone? I want them edgy, knowing that sometimes that giant shape behind the hill is NOT something you can take out. In fact, RUN!

Basically they will be as outpowered as often as not, but what I want is for them to think outside the box (i.e. magic and strength of arms will NOT solve every situation) and strategize near every encounter as if it was the BBEG at the end of an adventure.

What they do have in their favor:
- Max Hit Points
- Survival as class skill for all classes
- Numbers: 6-8 PCs (minimum), with several hardcore NPCs.
- Equipment: Everything they need for survival, from windproof tents, to dozens of sled dogs, to several domesticated ashrats for permanent firestarting and heat (they just need fed often, but breed like wildfire *ba dum DING!* keeping you with a constant supply)
- Steady supply of water (food may be a problem, but that's where the encounters come in handy, and the dogs are a last ditch solution of sorts).

Sharkman1231
2010-01-03, 04:47 PM
Okay, this campain sounds fun. Your players just have to be smart and careful, there doesn't seem to be any problem with what you're proposing. The only things I can think of right now is to not give them encounters that will insta-kill them (i.e. impossibly hard and cannot run away from) and no high DR monters if they will rarely get magical weapons (or at least not too often:smallwink:).

Roland St. Jude
2010-01-03, 05:49 PM
Off the cuff, my top three suggestions would be:

1. Warn them about the nature of the campaign. Stress resource management and the need for retreats early and often.
2. Reward out-of-the-box thinking, even if it means stretching the rules or fudging in the player's favor.
3. Be prepared to add in more traditional rewards, even if a bit at a time, if the players don't seem to be enjoying the game. There is a vast gulf between, "yay another artifact!" and "yay I didn't lose another boot in the mud during our retreat!" and it might take some tweaking to find the sweet spot where fun is had by all.

rayne_dragon
2010-01-03, 05:54 PM
It sounds fun to me too. I think players need to know what they're getting into beforehand, so make sure they understand that they're going to encounter things that are too powerful for them to handle. Other than that, it's just a matter of making sure you reward players for being smart. Normally that's done through money and magic items, so in a world where such things are scare, you need to replace that with other things that give them a sense of accomplishment in between the rare times when you do hand out something of obvious value. It helps to know what your players are looking for in terms of rewards and try to cater to that to some degree. Like if a player is trying to get a magic item, rather than just hand it to them, you could let him slowly collect components that could eventually be used in its construction. They have the feeling of having to strive for what they want, but the reward of knowing they're making progress towards their goals.

Dimers
2010-01-03, 05:59 PM
Warn them about the nature of the campaign. Stress resource management and the need for retreats early and often.


Make sure you reward players for being smart.

What I was going to say combines these two ideas. Once you've told the players that they're not only going to see level-appropriate encounters, give them XP for successfully avoiding or escaping the overpowering ones. Getting away intact is certainly an experience!

Volthawk
2010-01-03, 07:26 PM
Maybe you could make it so that they can craft gear out of dead enemies.

Seatbelt
2010-01-03, 08:34 PM
One thing to keep in mind too is that constantly being overwhelmed/outgunned/underarmed etc is fun but emotionally draining. Dead Space is an example of a game that was actually too good at scaring you, stretching your resources to the breaking point, and making you constantly think outside the box and struggle for survival. It was taxing and I could only play for a little while before I needed to quit. Every once in a while (every other session?) you need to let your players feel badass, have a minor victory, or something in their favor. It keeps people from getting bogged down. :)

Lyth
2010-01-03, 09:50 PM
Maybe you could make it so that they can craft gear out of dead enemies.

I'm reminded of the scale armor we made in my DM's survival campaign....crafted from the dead (and delicious!) psionic lobsters we had a blast fighting. :)

IonDragon
2010-01-03, 10:04 PM
EXACTLY what Seatbelt said. Make sure to change things up maybe once every few sessions. I'm running a L4D tabletop game (homebrewed monsters using Dead Stars rules) and monotony is exactly the problem I'm having with it. The combats are awesome and epic with even some minor combats turning into MASSIVE combats that require precision just to survive, but that's about all there is/has been so far. Combats. I've introduced a BBEG, but creating one was a bit of a stretch.

About your setting though, maybe throw in some wilderness dungeons, ancient abandoned temples, naturally occurring caverns with monsters' hoards. Anything for a change of pace every now and again.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-01-03, 10:16 PM
Oh, they will win fights. Not everything will be above them by a long shot. However, yes, XP bonuses will incur. Especially as it starts out at like 2nd level. By the end they should be near epic, and should feel great for getting so far.

Also, if they survive the first 'scouting mission' they get to be on the head of a massive ice-ship armada. That should be a plus. They find out their entire mission was to find a path for a herd of branta to pull the ships to the frozen ocean.

JonestheSpy
2010-01-03, 10:23 PM
I'd say take a tip from Tolkien and vary the rhythm some times. After the particularly hellish strech let them find some interesting place they can let down their guard for at least a short time before they're booted out into the unforgiving wilds again. Not too often, just enough so it isn't slog slog slog all the time.

Flaming Nun
2010-01-03, 10:44 PM
One thing to keep in mind too is that constantly being overwhelmed/outgunned/underarmed etc is fun but emotionally draining.

Be careful with overpowering your players. The best encounter is one where they think they will lose, but in the end, they win - it's empowering: the players become the source of their own destiny rather than pawns in your version of D&D the Board Game. A friend of mine "upgraded" his campaign to 4th Ed, but didn't bother reading the Encounter Level changes - thus, he smashed the players to the point that, if he wanted to keep them alive, he had to have an NPC come out and save them. Although it was funny to hear about how the Tarrasque coincidentally woke up in a hillside not far from their battle, or how the glade in which they slept was actually - unbeknown to them - a coven of tree-ents that was dormant until battle woke them, it made for an over-all bad campaign experience.

The easiest way to create the atmosphere that I think you are trying to create is to do just that - create atmosphere. If they are fighting something dangerous, have it stalk them just out of reach. If they're in character, this will frustrate them, building tension, scaring them: that will make the confrontation point more climactic, and in a lot of cases, you'll find that a dramatic entry and some good dialog will cause players to fear an enemy and flee an encounter which otherwise would have been easy for them.

Another way I've observed to keep players on edge is to surprise them. Ambushes are perfect - I once had a party approach a custom monster, essentially a possessed human with a fireaxe. They saw it walking, dragging the axe as though too weak and sunburned to continue, but when they addressed "him," it shrieked, charged them, and caused some infinitesimal HP damage before they beat it to death. The encounter was over in seconds - the NPC didn't get a second turn - and it wasn't a threat to their wellbeing at all - but that is the encounter that they most remember to this day.

Ranos
2010-01-03, 10:47 PM
Keep in mind that low-magic campaigns shaft non-casters even harder than normal. You may want to warn your players.

Copacetic
2010-01-03, 10:55 PM
I'd say take a tip from Tolkien and vary the rhythm some times. After the particularly hellish strech let them find some interesting place they can let down their guard for at least a short time before they're booted out into the unforgiving wilds again. Not too often, just enough so it isn't slog slog slog all the time.

I'm going to back up Jon here; For all the hardness you put your players through, give a break some times. It'll be a huge reward. And once in a while a straight, easy encounter they can blast through, it will make them feel geat about themselves.

rayne_dragon
2010-01-04, 12:12 AM
I just thought of something else. If you've got access to some of the Call of Cthulhu rpg materials they can be good for suggesting how to deal with making things very challenging, but still giving good rewards without handing out boatloads of treasure.

Eldariel
2010-01-04, 09:09 AM
All I can say is, I'd love to play a campaign like that. Just the kinds of things I feel every campaign should have; encounters not beatable through a prescripted means nor a force of arms, dangerous weather, insufficient resources and everything else. Any chance I'd be able to persuade you into PbPing something in your world here?

But frankly, I'd expect people would be able to enjoy it as long as they know what they're getting into. While not everyone might share my view that every adventure should have those elements. Don't think you really need to do much. I second the "small moment of reprieve if they survive for a while" though.

bosssmiley
2010-01-04, 09:20 AM
Take a few leaves from the Dark Sun playbook (with which setting your icy hellworld seems to have a lot in common).

Let the players know clearly and in advance that your world does not scale by level, and that punches will not be pulled on account of "the magical PC aura".
If resource scarcity and inventory management is an important part of survival, then find a quick-and-easy way of tracking vital resources. Or just use environmental effects rules (Dark Sun, or the SRD) to pummel the PCs when the players overlook the obvious. They won't make that mistake again. :smallwink:
Play monsters according to their native cunning and intelligence. (like I need to tell VT this, of all people!)
Pre-roll replacement characters in case the primaries get bogged down, or eaten, or buried in avalanches, or whatever. Or allow cohorts/sidekicks to be promoted to full PC status when their boss does the "-9, -10, *blarg*" tango.

Firm but fair is the way to go about it. You are the referee; not a vengeful and malicious divinity. You're not actively setting out to mangle the PCs, merely describing what happens to them because of the choices their players have made. If they're going to go and get in harm's way, they have to expect harm to come to them...

Adumbration
2010-01-04, 09:29 AM
I have just one question. Will you run it as PbP on these forums?

Please answer carefully. It will make the difference between obsessively stalking your every thread created and a massive d'awww. :smallwink:

Seriously, though. I think there would be a massive flood of interest, should you run one on these forums. I for one would love a campaign like that.

Fitz10019
2010-01-04, 10:29 AM
Provide an available-resource way of crafting tanglefoot bags. This would be a reasonable way to escape. Maybe chili-bombs, too, to defeat a monster's ability to track down the party.

Lysander
2010-01-04, 11:33 AM
Another thing to consider: unbeatable monsters that can still be fought off. A lot of animals won't attack a human if they don't think its worth their while. In some cases a monster might be impossible to kill, but causing it pain or putting on a threatening display might cause it to withdraw. Others might simply get enraged and keep attacking. Your players will learn which monsters are best to flee from, and which can be warded off.

Johel
2010-01-04, 12:04 PM
Current "Orc" campaign on another forum : exactly that feeling.
Me and 5 buddies (4 actually, since one of the player dropped out and the DM roleplay his character...) against the world.

We're 1st level and so far, we've had :

to set an ambush on a weakened 7th level wizard. This resulted in 4 dead NPC orcs and 2 severely burned players.
to fight off a goblins + worgs attack. This resulted in 1 unconscious player that 2 of us had to carry.
to venture through a cursed village full of ghouls. This went surprisingly well, except for 1 player who got paralyzed.
to "negotiate" with a ogre. Could have been messy but we survived.


All of this while fetching our food in the middle of the winter, with an 10th-level adventurer group tracking us.

We are currently attacking some isolated human village, not to pillage it but to EAT THE SENTRIES !! That's right, people, the reason orcs attack a village is because said village conveniently put 2 suckers with no bow atop a watchtower near the entrance. They just forgot the "Free Buffet" note with pink neons.

What I can advise you is that your players MUST learn to cooperate and they better learn fast.
The ambush became a slaughter because we were disorganized, with 1 cleric still screaming that we had to take the wizard alive while a fireball had just killed two orcs, half of the remaining orcs RUNNING AWAY while me and the other half were charging in very disordered fashion...
The fight against the goblins was nearly a slaughter when we didn't supported the lone charge of our barbarian...which was suppose to stay behind to stop anything crossing the entangle spell while we fired at the enemy.
The village went good but it was dumb luck, as half the team wanted to flee while the other half wanted to fight...which resulted in a very weakened team of warmongers being outnumbered by ghouls and finally saved by the "cowards".

weaselvr
2010-01-04, 02:48 PM
Hey everyone, been a watcher for awhile, but I really LOVE the idea of this campaign, and is something I've always wanted from DnD! Anyway, I feel I've actually got some worthwhile input for once, so here it is:

1. Encourage the players to play to their characters' strengths, and to create small teams. With 6-8 players, you can have two or three small teams, able to work more tactically. Skill points really become deciding factors - Player 2 has high Spot/Listen, player 5 has high Use Rope, and player 6 can make traps. That can be your scout / ambush team. Also, I'd think that this will initiate players thinking of versatility in their teams, so everyone can have their chance to make a very real impact.

2. Alternate rewards. If you're talking low magic and rare goods, give bonus attribute points and / or skill points. So, using the above example, player 5 Use(d) Rope(s) very out-of-the-box and dramatically, s/he gains +1 Use Rope skill point. This will encourage roleplaying and unique characters, while still creating a mechanical advantage and growth.

3. I am also just going to agree that giving breaks is awesome, but try and keep them random. I like the idea of having two blizzards back to back. Your players will think they get a break, but WHAM! another blizzard to keep them on their toes. After that, though, they'd probably need at least a couple in-game days to recover. With this, though, make sure that your players know that sometimes taking a break will have a negative impact on the "bigger picture." Now rest becomes a resource.

To finish up, I (again) love the idea, and finding the balance will be the hardest part. However, despite getting all the advice here, that will ultimately boil down to Your Players and You (tm).

Lysander
2010-01-04, 03:22 PM
Also, let them chart their course. For example, taking a pass above the mountains will take two days. Going around it will take nine. However the mountains are infested with monsters, making it twice as likely to face an enemy. Based on their remaining supplies they can decide whether the additional risk is worth covering more ground.

You could also give them numerous choices about when to enter dangerous situations. For example, they spot a large bear that's peacefully eating mushrooms. They can choose to face the bear in combat to get meat and valuable fur, or continue peacefully. Or they could spot an ancient ruin on a nearby hillside. Do they venture inside for treasure or keep going?

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-01-04, 05:45 PM
If you want to tax their recourses, just don't let them sleep/trance for spells. This requires effort, and the players should know you are doing this. Low magic makes things very interesting.

The White Knight
2010-01-04, 06:17 PM
I had fun with my brief foray into your game once upon a time, although I didn't exactly get in far enough to experience the full danger of the setting before having to withdraw. I'm pretty much in total agreement with your style of game though, so I actually have zero input for you except to keep up the good work.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-01-04, 06:21 PM
I had fun with my brief foray into your game once upon a time, although I didn't exactly get in far enough to experience the full danger of the setting before having to withdraw. I'm pretty much in total agreement with your style of game though, so I actually have zero input for you except to keep up the good work.
Yeah, seriously wish I could have kept it up.

Moving across the country to start my own company with the woman I wished to marry, well... even the best games have to bow to that.