[3.5] Legacy Champion, Uncanny Trickster, Bloodline "cheats"

[Thurbane]

I was looking for a clarification of a known cheat/loophole, with classes that give "+1 of existing class" as abilities.

What exactly is the wording on this that allows a prestige class to go beyond it's normal level limit? i.e. how would you get Mystic Theurge to give its +1 arcane/ +1 divine spellcasting for more than 10 levels? I'm just a bit stumped as to how it allows a class to continue past it's listed levels.

Cheers - T

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I was looking for a clarification of a known cheat/loophole, with classes that give "+1 of existing class" as abilities.

What exactly is the wording on this that allows a prestige class to go beyond it's normal level limit? i.e. how would you get Mystic Theurge to give its +1 arcane/ +1 divine spellcasting for more than 10 levels? I'm just a bit stumped as to how it allows a class to continue past it's listed levels.

Cheers - T

For most of these, I believe either errata and/or FAQ clarified if they can be applied towards PrCs. From memory, I believe Legacy Champion got shot down, while the other two were given the greenlight. Although, if it came from the FAQ, by RAW, it means jank.

It works less than well with MT, due to the fact that it has a known epic progression which alternates the casting bumps. Now, if you used it on something else with a theoretical but nonexplicit epic progression, then you and your DM just have to ad hoc said progression. It should be fairly simply to figure out, however.

[megabyter5]

Ahem... 10 level PrC's can only be advanced after a certain character level is reached, which is discussed in... *drumroll*

THE EPIC LEVEL HANDBOOK!

Bum! Bum! Buuummmm!

[Thurbane]

So the loopholes I see people discussing on these boards for theoretical builds...don't actually work?

[Optimystik]

So the loopholes I see people discussing on these boards for theoretical builds...don't actually work?

Uncanny Trickster states the following:


At each level after first, you gain class features (including spellcasting ability) and an increase in effective level as if you had also gained a level in a class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.

Legacy Champion states the following:


Class Features: At each level except 1st and 7th, you gain class features and an increase in effective level as if you had also gained a level in a class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. The specific class features you gain include spells per day (and spells known, if applicable), improved chance of turning or destroying undead, metamagic or item creation feats, bonus feats, monk special abilities, sneak attack progressions, and so on, depending on the class.

So really, they say the same thing (advancing class features), with LC going into greater detail.

Other PrCs simply advance spellcasting, not class features.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Ahem... 10 level PrC's can only be advanced after a certain character level is reached, which is discussed in... *drumroll*

THE EPIC LEVEL HANDBOOK!

Bum! Bum! Buuummmm!

That's great and all, except a Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Legacy Champion X isn't actually taking more levels in Mystic Theurge: he simply has the option to apply his advancement from LC to MT.

[shadow_archmagi]

That's great and all, except a Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Legacy Champion X isn't actually taking more levels in Mystic Theurge: he simply has the option to apply his advancement from LC to MT.

So, then, with 4 levels of LC, he's a level 20 character with 14 levels of MT. What does that get him? Are there super-cool features beyond the secret eleventh level?

[Kobold-Bard]

So, then, with 4 levels of LC, he's a level 20 character with 14 levels of MT. What does that get him? Are there super-cool features beyond the secret eleventh level?

He's a LEvel 17 Wiz and Cle. So he has 9th Level Spells on both sides. I think.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

So, then, with 4 levels of LC, he's a level 20 character with 14 levels of MT. What does that get him? Are there super-cool features beyond the secret eleventh level?

This. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClassProgressions.htm#epicMysticTheurge) Which, sadly, isn't much.

[Douglas]

Are there super-cool features beyond the secret eleventh level?
Unfortunately for the Mystic Theurge, no. Try it with Hellfire Warlock, War Weaver, or some other PrC with a major class ability explicitly tied directly to class level, and it's another matter.

[Weezer]

^I would think that it continues to advance divine and arcane spellcasting, so he'd have 14 levels that increase arcane and divine by 14 levels but I don't know what the RAW is.


Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

This explicitly doesn't work with increasing spells per day for something like mystic theruge but anything that's based solely on prc levels, can't think of any examples, I'm pretty sure that hellfire warlock's bonus eldritch blast damage would qualify but I don't have FCII right now so I cant check.

I do have a question, lets say I was cleric8/wizard8/bloodline 3 what would my CL be for each, would i have CL11 for both or would I need to choose which the bloodline levels count for?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Unfortunately for the Mystic Theurge, no. Try it with Hellfire Warlock, War Weaver, or some other PrC with a major class ability explicitly tied directly to class level, and it's another matter.

It also works better on these classes, due to the fact that they can NOT have an epic advancement. Some people may consider this "cheating."

[Douglas]

^I would think that it continues to advance divine and arcane spellcasting, so he'd have 14 levels that increase arcane and divine by 14 levels but I don't know what the RAW is.
RAW with the Mystic Theurge is that you'd start getting the benefits of the epic Mystic Theurge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClassProgressions.htm#epicMysticTheurge) progression, which absolutely sucks. It is strictly inferior to alternating levels of cleric and wizard.

[Optimystik]

The proper way to get dual 9ths with Mystic Theurge is to use an accelerated casting class on one side - Sublime Chord (arcane), Ur-Priest/Apostle of Peace (cleric) or Blighter (druid) for example.

[Darrin]

One thing that still puzzles me about Legacy Champion...

What happens when you use Legacy Champion to advance one of your classes, and after you're done with LC, you take more levels in your previous class? For example, you take Monk 10/Legacy Champion 5. You have the class abilities of a 14th level Monk. What happens if you take another level of Monk? Is that next level Monk 11, or Monk 15? Do you get Quivering Palm or Diamond Body again?

[Tavar]

What happens if you take another level of Wizard after a level of Archmage? The same applies in this case, except that instead of advancing only spellcasting, it advances the entire class. Your example would be a 15th level Monk for purposes of Class abilities.

[Optimystik]

Tavar is right, and a Monk 10/LC 5/Monk +1 would be equivalent to a Monk 15 as far as class features are concerned.

[Thurbane]

So, lets see if I understand...
When applied to a PrC that has epic progression, you use that progression once you push past it's printed levels.
If it's a PrC without epic progression, it then only increases abilities which are specifically tied to PrC level.
...is that right?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

So, lets see if I understand...
When applied to a PrC that has epic progression, you use that progression once you push past it's printed levels.
If it's a PrC without epic progression, it then only increases abilities which are specifically tied to PrC level.
...is that right?

More or less. In the event that a Wizard 5/War Weaver 5 started taking levels in Legacy Champion, applying it to War Weaver, he would still technically gain more casting, due to the way that the War Weaver's spellcasting advancement was worded. (That is, at every level but WW 1, gain moar).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Do remember that this is a loophole. It's interesting for theoretical builds and thought exercises, but most DM's will shoot it down before you can even finish describing it.

[Flickerdart]

It must be noted that using it on Mystic Theurge isn't exactly broken, since you're still 3 levels behind on both sides. Just don't use Legacy Champion to progress Uncanny Trickster levels, which you then use to progress Legacy Champion levels, recursively.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Though I doubt seriously that I'd ever allow that in-game and can't imagine any other sane DM allowing it, I've got to know if you mean what I think you mean, Flickerdart. Please ellaborate.

Edit: stupid pronouns. and punctuation marks.

[Wings of Peace]

Why has nobody brought up Initiating or Binding PRCs who state that your levels in those classes stack with your base class? That'd be the most optimized direction if you wanted to be a jerk.

[Lamech]

Yeah, bloodline 3 warblade 2/crusader 1/swordsage 1/random PRC 1= 17 iniator at level 8.

[Flickerdart]

Though I doubt seriously that I'd ever allow that in-game and can't imagine any other sane DM allowing it, I've got to know if you mean what I think you mean, Flickerdart. Please ellaborate.

Edit: stupid pronouns. and punctuation marks.
Take a level of Uncanny Trickster. Next level, take a level of Legacy Champion and use its class feature to advance Uncanny Trickster. Then, you use the Uncanny Trickster's class feature of advancing class features to advance Legacy Champion, who gets its own feature-advancing ability that you use on the Uncanny Trickster. You'll eventually hit snags with the dead levels, but you can take all of Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster in a handful of levels. It's probably possible to work bloodlines into this as well, somehow.

At least, I think so. I haven't read the exact wording of the classes, but potentially, it makes sense.

[Optimystik]

Take a level of Uncanny Trickster. Next level, take a level of Legacy Champion and use its class feature to advance Uncanny Trickster. Then, you use the Uncanny Trickster's class feature of advancing class features to advance Legacy Champion, who gets its own feature-advancing ability that you use on the Uncanny Trickster. You'll eventually hit snags with the dead levels, but you can take all of Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster in a handful of levels. It's probably possible to work bloodlines into this as well, somehow.

At least, I think so. I haven't read the exact wording of the classes, but potentially, it makes sense.

Yo dawg, I herd u liek class features, so we advanced yo advancement so you can level while you level

[Orran]

Advancing abjurant chamion with Legacy Champion would allow you to automatically quicken any abjuration spell of 7th level or lower, along with all abjurations being extended. Not to mention the +13 AC Shields. Find some fun abjurations and this could be pretty fun, dont know how to pull it off before level 25 though.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Advancing abjurant chamion with Legacy Champion would allow you to automatically quicken any abjuration spell of 7th level or lower, along with all abjurations being extended. Not to mention the +13 AC Shields. Find some fun abjurations and this could be pretty fun, dont know how to pull it off before level 25 though.

Easier than you would think, actually. Using standard Illumian shenanigans, go Wizard 1/Eldritch Knight 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Legacy Champion 9.

BAB 16, CL 17 at 20. Effective AC level of 12, which would limit us to only quickening 6th level abjuration spells. I vaguely recall some retraining trick to allow swapping out classes previously needed for qualification, but I am not sure how exactly that works. If allowed, the build loses a level of EK and gains the last level of LC.

Still, getting +20 (24 in melee against sighted targets) to AC from Greater Luminous Armor and another +17 from Shield is dandy.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

I have a boostrapping thread on this at BG for those interested. Its not much. RAW upon level 20 you can grab those epic PrC class features. But any sane DM will obviously boot all the epic stuff. Meaning you should only get repeats of previous class features like MT spell progression or IS brain candy.


Yeah, bloodline 3 warblade 2/crusader 1/swordsage 1/random PRC 1= 17 iniator at level 8.No. Both the IL and the Bloodline calculations are of

[Necroticplague]

A fun trick I've heard about with these types of things is to use them to progress Fiend of Possession, until you gain the ability to grant epic enchantments to things I possess. If I remember correctly, its 6(fiend of possession) +8 (legacy champion)+2(uncanny trickster)+3 (bloodlines)+10 (base enchantment value of fully-souped up Caput Mortuum)=+29 worth of enchantments on a scythe.

[Darth_Versity]

My favourite trick isn't exactly optimised but fun none less. You can make a character with no base classes. Take a paladin 10/legacy champion 2 and then go blackguard. You can now trade out your 10 lvls of paladin for blackguard and have no base class lvls!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Legacy Champion is also used very well with 'War Weaver' to be able to mass buff any spell that can go into the Weave. And drop down a whole slew of buffs on the party as a move action.

[Kaje]

And Spellwarp Sniper with 5 levels of LC can cast 9th level area spells as rays, no save.

[Radar]

The most common use is furthering the progression of Hellfire Warlock to increase the damage of Hellfire Blast. Most 3 or 5 level PrCs benefit greatly from Legacy Champion or Uncanny Trickster levels.

[nijineko]

That's great and all, except a Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Legacy Champion X isn't actually taking more levels in Mystic Theurge: he simply has the option to apply his advancement from LC to MT.

however, taking an epic level has its' own special prerequisites, which neither the character nor legacy champion are capable of meeting at that level. one cannot apply legacy champion to an epic level until all the requirements for taking an epic level are met. i may be misremembering, but i thought i recalled a 21st level requirement for epic levels-though i believe true dragons are exempted from that.

[Alleine]

I never understood how bloodlines were supposed to fit into this. At least the first bloodline level is almost always going to be taken before you get into the class you want to boost it with unless you enjoy eating the XP penalty.

I don't want to think about trying to interpret it as being able to boost classes you take after the fact >.<