Advice for level 11 psionic build and more.

[warrior297]

Hello, just wondering if any of you can give me ideas/advice for a 11th level psionic character. I need help with:

-Stats
-Items
-Feats
-Skills

As I know, it is point-buy and I have 45,000 gp at my disposal (This is 3.5)

I do want to be a Human/Elan Psion Kineticist.

Your help will be very appreciated.

Bonus question: Is the malevoker any good when is comes to using minions as your main weapon?

[Optimystik]

Start with the Psion Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1036.0), come back with any questions that arise. :smallsmile:

As for your race, are Kalashtar allowed in your setting? They are from Eberron and get far more bonus power points than Elans do. Synads (CPsi) are also powerful, gaining 1 more bonus PP than an Elan does and being able to gain an extra swift mental action 1/day.



Bonus question: Is the malevoker any good when is comes to using minions as your main weapon?

Malconvoker is one of the best "summoner" classes out there. If you want similar summoning power with your psion, be a Shaper and choose the Ectopic Adept PrC (CPsi.)

EDIT: Here is the Malconvoker Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=289.0) as well.

[jokey665]

If you want similar summoning power with your psion, be a Shaper and choose the Ectopic Adept PrC

That sure is a funny way to spell Constructor. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b)

[Lycanthromancer]

That sure is a funny way to spell Constructor. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b)IE, avoid the stupidity that is the CPsi astral construct nerf at all costs, as well as the horrible Ectopic Form feats, ectopic adept...

...in fact, avoid 100% everything having to do with astral constructs in CPsi with every neuron in your body.

[deuxhero]

Better yet ignore CPsi completely and consider Soulbow something like swiftblade that WoTC just decided to put on the internet for free and not actually put in any book.

[warrior297]

:
As for your race, are Kalashtar allowed in your setting? They are from Eberron and get far more bonus power points than Elans do.

Yes it is possible, the GM would allow it considering the stuff he has thrown at us so far. (Vampire Lord, Undead Dragon ect...) Also how many psicrystals can you have?

[Optimystik]

IE, avoid the stupidity that is the CPsi astral construct nerf at all costs, as well as the horrible Ectopic Form feats, ectopic adept...

...in fact, avoid 100% everything having to do with astral constructs in CPsi with every neuron in your body.

I was only pointing it out as a possibilty if his DM was using the CPsi nerf. :smallsmile:

Though I admit I forgot constructor.


Yes it is possible, the GM would allow it considering the stuff he has thrown at us so far. (Vampire Lord, Undead Dragon ect...) Also how many psicrystals can you have?

One, with the possibility of extreme cheese that I am not considering.

[warrior297]

One, with the possibility of extreme cheese that I am not considering.

What do you mean? :smalleek:

[jokey665]

What do you mean? :smalleek:

Your psicrystal could take psicrystal affinity. Guess where it goes from there.

[warrior297]

Your psicrystal could take psicrystal affinity. Guess where it goes from there.

*head desk* jesus... the GM would use the Rock of Doom on me if I did that...

[warrior297]

Ok so I know Int would be the highest stat, what would be the second?

[Lycanthromancer]

*head desk* jesus... the GM would use the Rock of Doom on me if I did that...Not doable. Psicrystals don't get manifester levels outside of Hidden Talent, but that feat doesn't count as manifester levels for the purposes of feats and such.

However, I do believe the psychic weapons master gets a sword that acts just like a psicrystal. You can also use fission on it to get more than one. Persistent Power (from Hyperconscious) will let you use it all day; Extend it for 48 hours of goodness. The metamind/timeless body/temporal reiteration trick might work, but only so long as you keep it within 5 ft.

[Lycanthromancer]

Ok so I know Int would be the highest stat, what would be the second?Generally Con, followed by Dex.

Kineticists work decently well as both blasters and as battlefield control. Grab a psicrystal, control air, and co-opt concentration for a really nice tornado blast (even before you get tornado blast). Also, don't take too many damaging powers. You're best off grabbing one that targets touch AC (energy ray or energy stun/push), one AoE that targets saving throws (energy wave or energy ball), one that can do surgical precision-strikes (energy missile), and one that deals damage over time (energy wall or energy current). Too many powers that do one thing are serious overkill, since you can make one do a lot more work than an equivalent spell...well, most spells, anyway. Diversity, rather than redundancy.

Get a psionatrix of psychokinesis and a torc of power preservation. A Heward's handy haversack and a headband of intellect are absolute must-haves.

Also, consider other psionic disciplines (mostly for the skill lists, as well as whichever discipline list you'll get the most powers from), then cherry-pick using research, psychic chirurgery, and Expanded Knowledge/Hidden Talent.

[warrior297]

Ok, last thing are feats, any ideas on this?

[HCL]

You want psionic body, probably a couple expanded knowledges to get what you normally can't (metamorphosis is a big one that everyone should have)

not sure what else

[Draz74]

Ok so I know Int would be the highest stat, what would be the second?

You probably want Wisdom 13, as it's a prerequisite for Psionic Meditation and a few other somewhat decent feats. But you don't need it any higher, since your Will save will be good anyway.

Besides that, like the other guy said, Con and Dex are most important (after Int).

EDIT: Psionic Body is usually a waste. Rarely will it get you more bonus hit points than Improved Toughness, and most Psions don't bother with Improved Toughness.

Expanded Knowledge is indeed the Psion's favorite feat. Metamorphosis is good, but Schism is possibly even better, and Astral Construct is also very popular.

Other classic favorite feats are Psionic Meditation, Quicken Power (at mid-high levels), Overchannel, and Talented.

[Optimystik]

Psionic Meditation is a must.

[PhoenixRivers]

My favorite Psion builds are as follows (to level 11):

Wizard 1 / Psion 3 / Cerebremancer 7

If early entry is allowed, of course (via Precocious Apprentice, for example). This, with Practiced Spellcaster/Practiced Manifester, gives you the following:

8th level wizard casting (at Caster level 11)
10th level psion casting (at Manifester level 11)

That's 4th level spells (for buffs/utility)...
5th level powers (augmentable to effectively 6th level)...

With overchannel, you can temporarily hit ML 13, which lets you turbocharge your Energy Stun, when needed, to a Max DC of 17+Int Mod (19+Int with electricity).

4th level spells get you Dimension Door, Blur, Blink, Haste, and the like, making you party friendly, without sacrificing any offensive punch, and only sacrificing a few PP.

NOTE: Psionic Meditation is nice, but it's not the be-all, end-all. You'll likely not need too many focus-expendings, and spending a full round regaining it is a good built-in limiter if you're not experienced with restraining yourself. It's very easy to nova Psions.

[Dimers]

To the other feat suggestions, I'd add Transdimensional Power, at least for a blaster. It doesn't cost power points to use, it can shore up a party weakness, and when you get powerful enough to go ethereal yourself ... woo! :smallsmile:

[PhoenixRivers]

To the other feat suggestions, I'd add Transdimensional Power, at least for a blaster. It doesn't cost power points to use, it can shore up a party weakness, and when you get powerful enough to go ethereal yourself ... woo! :smallsmile:

Note: Per the wording on Transdimensional Spell, it does not extend to the Material plane from the ethereal.

Standard text for ethereal is that nothing goes from ethereal to material. As such, an ability must explicitly state that it allows this to override that primary source rule.

Transdimensional states that you can affect coterminous planes from the material. It doesn't state that you can affect the material from coterminous planes. Thus, it cannot.

Not saying it's not useful... Just that it cannot be used to snipe from the ethereal plane.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

But... but... psionics is broken...

[Dimers]

Standard text for ethereal is that nothing goes from ethereal to material. As such, an ability must explicitly state that it allows this to override that primary source rule.

Too bad about that ... without that 'standard text', you could at least make a case for a transdimensional power hitting incorporeal creatures on the Material plane:


A transdimensional spell has its full normal effect on incorporeal creatures, creatures on the Ethereal Plane or the Plane of Shadow, and creatures within an extradimensional space in the power's area.

But yes, it's true, Ethereal-to-Material nastiness is clearly excluded.

[Lycanthromancer]

Linked Power is nice if used properly (I use it mostly for buffs, but you can hit a creature multiple times with, say, energy stun for good effect). Empower and (later) Maximize.

Chain Power WOULD be good, except the only power in the entire XPH that it actually works with is (possibly, and only under the proper interpretation - and even then it is questionable) energy conversion.

...which is a shame that you can't get until level 13, as it's the best blasting power in the book, since it lasts for a few hours when you get it, can pump out thousands of points of damage, and stacks quite well with metapsionics. Especially when charged via an energy wall/standing-in-a-puddle-of-acid/holding-a-shocking-club-and-a-torch combo. Also does well with Greater/Psionic Shot, Chain Power, Split Psionic Ray, Aligned Attack and a greater/chasuble of fell power, and schism and a psicrystal for multiple shots a round...Until then, conserve pp via duration powers (like energy wall/current/retort), using your 1d6-per-pp powers only when you need a big shot. Entangling ectoplasm is also great for conserving, especially with Greater/Psionic Shot. :smallsmile:

[Draz74]

But... but... psionics is broken...

You need to get off your recent kick of confusing newcomers in the name of sarcasm ... :smallwink:

It's funny, but it's not that funny. :smalltongue:

[Zaq]

On the topic of psicrystals, I think you can have two, because you could take the feat normally, then take a level of Erudite, which gets it as a bonus feat.

Disclaimer: I have no idea how that should actually work, but bonus feats have a tendency to break the rules of what feats you can and cannot have, and there's no mention of what happens if you already happen to have Psicrystal Affinity when you take a level of Erudite.

[PhoenixRivers]

On the topic of psicrystals, I think you can have two, because you could take the feat normally, then take a level of Erudite, which gets it as a bonus feat.

Disclaimer: I have no idea how that should actually work, but bonus feats have a tendency to break the rules of what feats you can and cannot have, and there's no mention of what happens if you already happen to have Psicrystal Affinity when you take a level of Erudite.

The feat does not make a reference to being able to be taken multiple times.

The Erudite doesn't make a reference to being able to have it twice.

Standard rule for feats is that they cannot be taken multiple times, unless stated otherwise.

[2xMachina]

Erudite is a variant of Psion, so you can not be Psion and Erudite at the same time.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Shapers get to manifest Astral Construct as a swift action (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a).

Be sure to get a Psicrystal and use Share Pain on it daily, along with sharing Vigor with it. That effectively gets you 10 hp per powerpoint spent on Vigor.

Get a Torc of Power Preservation, it is the single most important item for any Psion to have.

See if you can get Persistent Power (http://wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/ArcanaOccupationsandFeats.rtf), its from d20 Modern but that uses roughly the same system for psionics. At level 11 with Overchannel you can use that on 3rd level and lower powers.

[Zen Master]

Be sure to get a Psicrystal and use Share Pain on it daily, along with sharing Vigor with it. That effectively gets you 10 hp per powerpoint spent on Vigor.

Now that is actually a neat trick. The problem with the best cheese is - you know you want to ban it, because it just ain't right, but you can't really point to any good reason why.

I shall myself simply refrain from using this neat trick, thus avoiding putting grey hairs on my DM's head. But it is neat trick.

[PhoenixRivers]

Now that is actually a neat trick. The problem with the best cheese is - you know you want to ban it, because it just ain't right, but you can't really point to any good reason why.

I shall myself simply refrain from using this neat trick, thus avoiding putting grey hairs on my DM's head. But it is neat trick.

Actually, I know I wouldn't, and I'd think it a clever play on the part of my players. Extra HP don't break an encounter.

It's not particularly cheesy, or unbalancing. It just makes a psion harder to kill via damage and efficient. Not particularly horrendous, considering they're manifesting multiple powers to harness synergies between them.

If it was something that blew damage caps off, or pumped save DC's crazy high? I could see a cheese argument.

But wanting to ban something without reason is a indicator that you're not properly using reason to decide what you ban.

[Zen Master]

Actually, I know I wouldn't, and I'd think it a clever play on the part of my players. Extra HP don't break an encounter.

It's not particularly cheesy, or unbalancing. It just makes a psion harder to kill via damage and efficient. Not particularly horrendous, considering they're manifesting multiple powers to harness synergies between them.

If it was something that blew damage caps off, or pumped save DC's crazy high? I could see a cheese argument.

But wanting to ban something without reason is a indicator that you're not properly using reason to decide what you ban.

Oh I can easily give you a reason: The 11th level caster this thread is all about would gain 110 hp for the manifesting of a single power. Giving him far more hp than a tank of the same level. Which is not as should be.

But really, to put us on the same page here, I'll add that vigor is not as should be. Spells that give ekstra hp include such classics as aid, bears endurance and vampiric touch. That is the power level vigor should be at. It clearly isn't.

[PhoenixRivers]

Oh I can easily give you a reason: The 11th level caster this thread is all about would gain 110 hp for the manifesting of a single power. Giving him far more hp than a tank of the same level. Which is not as should be, in my opinion.

But really, to put us on the same page here, I'll add that vigor is not as should be, in my opinion. Spells that give ekstra hp include such classics as aid, bears endurance and vampiric touch. That is the power level vigor should be at, in my opinion. It clearly isn't.

Fixed that for you.
Note: It's actually 2 powers (Share Pain, and Vigor).

Further, when Augmented to 11pp, Vigor has the same expenditure as a 6th level power. Are you really telling me that this should be no stronger than abilities 2-4 levels lower? Heck, Vampiric Touch has to divide its power for the level its at between damage and temp HP, and the others are so low level compared to this, it's ridiculous.

You're saying that a power with the same rough expenditure as Heal should be treated as no stronger than Cure Moderate Wounds.

That's why I feel your opinion does not take into account reason. Rather, it starts at an opinion, and searches to support that preconceived notion.

Were you to Augment Vigor to 3 PP (the expenditure of Aid), it would provide 15 temp HP, which is on par.

Were you to manifest Aid shared, and then Share Pain, it would effectively double that to 30+ temp HP, as well.

[Zen Master]

You're saying that a power with the same rough expenditure as Heal should be treated as no stronger than Cure Moderate Wounds.

I'm saying that making a power that is basically a heal you can cast in advance is an error.

(as an aside: There's something there - changing the game from being reactive to preparatory. But that is (yet) another discussion)

Are there any similar spells? Maybe so, in some splat book I never read, but in that case I've never heard of it.

Vigor has been designed wrong from the foundation up. It's a travesty.

On another topic: At some point, someone is going to ask us to stop messing up their threads with this discussion, which we're having with slight variations across a number of new and older threads. Maybe we should just get a room :)

But seriously, we're just at opposing ends of the spectrum here. I've had similar endless discussions over politics. Which can be quite enlightening, and I've no objection to enlightenment. Mine or yours :p

[PhoenixRivers]

I'm saying that making a power that is basically a heal you can cast in advance is an error.

(as an aside: There's something there - changing the game from being reactive to preparatory. But that is (yet) another discussion)

Are there any similar spells? Maybe so, in some splat book I never read, but in that case I've never heard of it.

Vigor has been designed wrong from the foundation up. It's a travesty.And the designers of psionics would disagree.

And the bulk of the charop people who do read the rules, and list psionics as being better balanced than traditional arcane/divine casting would disagree.

Not saying that there aren't powers that should be reined in. After all, Anticipatory Strike and Synchronicity are out there.

I'm saying that you're tilting at windmills, Mr. Quixote.


But seriously, we're just at opposing ends of the spectrum here. I've had similar endless discussions over politics. Which can be quite enlightening, and I've no objection to enlightenment. Mine or yours :p
And I have no objection at your enlightenment either. I'm striving to assist you on that path.

[Teron]

I'm saying that making a power that is basically a heal you can cast in advance is an error.
Good thing there isn't such a power, then. Now, if vigor could prevent or even cure pretty much every negative condition in the game (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Heal.htm), there might be a problem.

[Zen Master]

And I have no objection at your enlightenment either. I'm striving to assist you on that path.

Likewise. And I can tell you in all honesty - and I believe absolute accuracy - that we are making equal progress on each other.

You aim for the game to work at your end of the spectrum. I aim for it to work on my end. What you seem to fail to grasp is that we both hit our targets.

You are not right - and nor am I. Because there is no 'right answer'. But you seem to think there is - and that the answer is RAW.

On another note: I agree psionics are balance - with psionics. But in many ways, psionics is competely overpowered when compared to the rest of core. To my thinking, psionics should have been called Sorcerer - and that should have been that. And it should have been included in PHB, and the rest of the classes should have been built around the same mindset.

Too bad it isn't so. We'll never know how that might have worked out.

[Arakune]

In short: Heal, as a single 6th level cleric spell:

It immediately ends any and all of the following adverse conditions affecting the Target: ability damage, blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, sickened, stunned, and poisoned;
It also cures 10 hit points of damage per level of the caster, to a maximum of 150 points at 15th level;

Now, at ML 11, vigor WITH share pain is 110 extra temporary hp. 'Healing' wise, is the same as Heal, but heal is much, much better.

[Optimystik]

But in many ways, psionics is competely overpowered when compared to the rest of core.

I'm fairly certain the "rest of core" easily gives psionics a run for its money.

[PhoenixRivers]

Likewise. And I can tell you in all honesty - and I believe absolute accuracy - that we are making equal progress on each other.That doesn't give me hope. You've not convinced me of a single point you've made.


You aim for the game to work at your end of the spectrum. I aim for it to work on my end. What you seem to fail to grasp is that we both hit our targets.

You are not right - and nor am I. Because there is no 'right answer'.When playing, you are absolutely correct.

But you seem to think there is - and that the answer is RAW.No, I think RAW is a medium that everyone is familiar with. "Rules As Played In a Specific Town" is not. I prefer to speak in mediums conducive to mutual understanding, rather than be mired in incoherence and lack of common ground.


On another note: I agree psionics are balanced - with psionics. But in many ways, psionics is competely overpowered when compared to the rest of core.Are you kidding me? Core is overpowered compared to everything else. Point out the most unbalanced non-core element you can find. Compare to Gate or Simulacrum. Even incantatrix and planar shepard pale to those two spells.

I've played games that banned core. Oddly enough, they're a lot more balanced than core only.

Psionics are balanced, according to me, and all of charop. Psionics are less overpowering than Core, according to me, and all of charop.

You disagree. Your arguments are far, far less than compelling. I'll go with established, respected views of people who can play with these things, rather than someone who takes the red pen to 50% of the PHb.

[Draz74]

Get a Torc of Power Preservation, it is the single most important item for any Psion to have.

Not anymore. The version from MIC replaces the version from the XPH, and nerfs it. On the plus side, it's much much cheaper. On the minus side, it's not so very cool anymore. :smallfrown:

[Samb]

Ahem.... back on topic.

So you want to be a psionic blaster? Good for you!!! One thing to keep in mind is that while psion is a solid choice, there may be even better options. Since you are a blaster you don't really need that many powers since most do the same thing anyway. Enter ACF Ideal mantle ardent (and subsitution powers) and educated wilder.

Class (other than kinetist)
Why dominant ideal ardent? Has 3/4 BAB for your rays. Not blowing your focus on metapsionics from energy mantle is just too good. Empower and maximixe for insane damage. The key to this build is to decrease cost and increase ML so you can pump as much PP into your manifesting as possible. An energy missile with widen makes the power as broken as it should have been (15 feet apart limit now 30 feet).

Why educated wilder? Exchange a useless class feature for EK means you can get all the good powers for free. Wild surge to deal lots of damge for free and faster than overchannel (and just plain better). Also has 3/4 BAB for rays.

Items:
Someone mentioned the torc, which I assume is the SRD version. The offical version is the one found in MIC which is only 5/day. The plus side is that it is only 4,000 gp so you can get it much sooner and maybe even have multiples. Another relativily unknow item is found in magic of eberron which allows you to add 2-6 PP to a power WHICH IGNORES ML LIMITS!!!! You have to be a Kalashtar or Inspired to use it but ignoring ML limits should be self evident as to why its great.

Feats:
As a blaster do consider elemental envoy from CPsi for the +1 in ML for the energy you select. Don't listen to everyone that says "ML isn't important", it is. Link power....... of course you need this.

Power:
No one mentioned Energy barrage. You get 3 volleys dealing d6's in damage (reflex save for half). You can overlap the 3 volley to hit the same taget/area 3 times basically tripling your damage!!! It's a level 7 power so you'll have to wait, but for me it's the only blasting power you really need, and it has a reflex save. And IIRC, they need to do a reflex save for each volley so. Also consider solict psicrystal for energy current so you can continue the hurt while doing something else, make sure to link this to save even more time.

[PhoenixRivers]

Since you are a blaster you don't really need that many powers since most do the same thing anyway

I disagree with this statement.

While blasting can be made more effective with dominant ideal Ardent, it comes at a sacrifice of other things. Other powers which get you into position to blast, and protect you while you blast.

YMMV, to be sure. If all you're interested in is raw damage, Ardent with an EK for Schism may be a good choice.

If you're interested in being versatile enough to handle a variety of situations? You'll want more.

All the other advice? Spot on.

[Zen Master]

That doesn't give me hope. You've not convinced me of a single point you've made.

Likewise :)


No, I think RAW is a medium that everyone is familiar with.

I don't need that medium. You and I have been discussing at length, across several threads - and never about RAW. And you can trust me, we'd have been agreeing on even less (in so far as that's even possible) if we'd been discussing RAW.

It's there, somewhere in the background - true. If we were discussing theoretical physics, the basic laws of physics would be there, somewhere in the background, but we'd never have to actually go there, unless they were the topic at hand, as such.

And we're not discussing anything nearly as specific as that. RP is fluffy, RAW is fluffy, and at any rate that's just not where the goodies are.


Compare to Gate or Simulacrum. Even incantatrix and planar shepard pale to those two spells.

That may be so. My group never plays high enough level for that to be a problem. But once, back in the days, we did - and it wasn't a problem.

It's simply a question of not abusing something that's abusable. Of course, by RAW you'd be right - but I don't see how that helps you. It's just another example of it being futile to discuss something that isn't as it should be.


Psionics are balanced, according to me, and all of charop.

And that doesn't make it correct. Your opinon, no matter how select and special you consider the group who share it to be, is just your opinion.

And mine - as recently stated below - is just mine.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

And that doesn't make it correct. Your opinon, no matter how select and special you consider the group who share it to be, is just your opinion.

And mine - as recently stated below - is just mine.

But that does not mean opinions cannot be right.

[Lycanthromancer]

And you can trust meAs a rule of thumb, never trust anyone who says 'trust me'. :smallwink:

You know, Acromos, I've read a great deal of your arguments on multiple subjects, across multiple threads, and I have to say that I've never once found myself agreeing with a single thing you have ever said on any subject if it happened to disagree with someone else, mostly because you espouse rather odd opinions as fact, disregard RAW as a shared medium between games because it doesn't match up with your houserules, and you refuse to budge from that stance. It may seem like a sweeping generalization, but I've actually kept track, and the number of times I've agreed with you remains zero.

I'm apparently considered somewhat of a charop aficionado in regards to psionics and abusing core-only rules, and I can say without reserve that core-only is much, much, Much, Much, MUCH more broken than core powers; often-times psionic powers are less overwhelmingly powerful than spells 2 or 3 levels below them. Some powers are better than some spells, yes, but the vast majority of the time it's either because the spell is sub-par and the power is boosted to be actually useful (see: direct damage), or because the power is designed to be made relevant with larger resource expenditures.

Take it as you will.

[Samb]

I disagree with this statement.

While blasting can be made more effective with dominant ideal Ardent, it comes at a sacrifice of other things. Other powers which get you into position to blast, and protect you while you blast.

YMMV, to be sure. If all you're interested in is raw damage, Ardent with an EK for Schism may be a good choice.

If you're interested in being versatile enough to handle a variety of situations? You'll want more.

All the other advice? Spot on.

Even a kineist can be a decent batman (although not optimal) simply because he has so many powers. What you you really need as a psi-blaster anyways? Since all the powers scale AND you can change the element on the fly you only need 4-5 to deal damage on a consistant basis.
1 touch attack (energy ray)
1 will save (mind thrust)
1 reflex save (energy barrage)
1-2 auto-hits (energy missile, concussion blast, crystal shard) With crytal shard being the best since it can work in antimagic/psionic fields and no mobs really have resistance/immunity to crystal.
1 fort save (disentgrate)

The fort save might not even be needed since Fort saves suck, but disentgrate has the potential to kill something out right so I included it anyway.

Misc powers
Null energy field
energy conversion
Are great flavor and great defense.

So even a wilder would still have "left-over" powers to use one batman stuff.

[tyckspoon]

1 fort save (disentgrate)

The fort save might not even be needed since Fort saves suck, but disentgrate has the potential to kill something out right so I included it anyway.f.

Psi Disintegrate is actually a really awesome utility pick (need a hole somewhere? Don't like the options for doors/windows that are already there? Need a force effect removed? Disintegrate! And you can spam it much more effectively for these purposes than a prepared caster) but I wouldn't rely on it for damage output. The damage scales rapidly, but the DC doesn't change at all, and it does almost nothing on a successful save because the damage-on-save doesn't change when you augment either. And, finally, you can convert any of your Ref-for-Half powers into Fort-for-Half by picking Cold as the energy type, which reduces the need to select another blasting power specifically to attack Fort (I'd take Disintegrate eventually for the utility, but maybe not as a first choice- there's a lot of good stuff at power level 6.)

If you do want a specific Fort-attacking power, I like Mindwipe and Decerebrate.

[Samb]

Psi Disintegrate is actually a really awesome utility pick (need a hole somewhere? Don't like the options for doors/windows that are already there? Need a force effect removed? Disintegrate! And you can spam it much more effectively for these purposes than a prepared caster) but I wouldn't rely on it for damage output. The damage scales rapidly, but the DC doesn't change at all, and it does almost nothing on a successful save because the damage-on-save doesn't change when you augment either. And, finally, you can convert any of your Ref-for-Half powers into Fort-for-Half by picking Cold as the energy type, which reduces the need to select another blasting power specifically to attack Fort (I'd take Disintegrate eventually for the utility, but maybe not as a first choice- there's a lot of good stuff at power level 6.)

If you do want a specific Fort-attacking power, I like Mindwipe and Decerebrate.
Yeah being able to get by walls of force is great.

Ah right I forgot that you could convert your elements to change the type of save it was. Totally forgot about decerbrate, but isn't that more of a save or die? In which case I'd recommend the powers that blow people's head open like intellect bomb. On a failed fort save, target's head explodes and hits everyone in range for d6's damage (reflex for half). It's just too funny.

[Arakune]

Yeah being able to get by walls of force is great.

Ah right I forgot that you could convert your elements to change the type of save it was. Totally forgot about decerbrate, but isn't that more of a save or die? In which case I'd recommend the powers that blow people's head open like intellect bomb. On a failed fort save, target's head explodes and hits everyone in range for d6's damage (reflex for half). It's just too funny.

So that's where "your head a' xplode" comes from

[Samb]

So that's where "your head a' xplode" comes from

It's funny when the wizard's head explodes and all his friends die from the flying bits and peices of his skull.

"told him not to think so much"

[Samb]

Some thing I got wrong: crystal shard is a ray attack so it should be on par with energy ray.

Just going through the damage dealing powers and one really surprised me:


Energy stun: lvl 2 power, 3 PP to manifest, only deals 1d6 damage, range of 30 feet (at level 3), and area of 5.

It doesn't seem that special at first blush but then you read that it's DC increase for every extra PP you spend!!!! Most powers are +1 to DC for every 2 PP spent, even the great ego whip. This could be pretty bad..... or really awesome.

Let's say a wilder 7 with 18 CHR uses and this wilder has elemental envoy and a psionmatrix. So she spends 8PP and another 3 from wild surge, which totals to 8 extra PP.

End result: DC= 12+8+1+4=25 (or 27 if the target is wearing metal) and damage of 8d6.

Just to put this into perception, a cleric with 18 WIS would only have +9 will save (its good save).

This could be really bad for any BSF class as they like to wear armor as they have terrible reflex and will saves. Even with good saves the chances of you taking full damage and being stunned is greater than 25%, and that is only at level 7.

DC=12+21+1+4=38 at level 20 using only +3 wild surge and 18 CHR. The good progression for saves is +12 or +16 with 19 WIS, this means even with a roll of 19 (total=35) you still come up short. On a bad progression save this will work 95% of the time.

With that in mind, energy stun could be great for control.


Other blasty powers that you should take up:
1) energy stun for control
2) energy wall for control
3) energy current with solicit psicrystal.

[Dimers]

Just going through the damage dealing powers and one really surprised me:

(Energy stun) doesn't seem that special at first blush but then you read that it's DC increase for every extra PP you spend!!!! Most powers are +1 to DC for every 2 PP spent, even the great ego whip.

Complete Psi fixed it to match the other powers. I believe there're two more powers in XPH with the same issue; in any case, nothing got past CPsi with better than +1 DC for +2 PP.

[Samb]

Complete Psi fixed it to match the other powers. I believe there're two more powers in XPH with the same issue; in any case, nothing got past CPsi with better than +1 DC for +2 PP.

Aww that's too bad..... but your DM doesn't have to know that :smallwink:

But that is fair as 1PP for +1 is just way too good.

[Lycanthromancer]

Complete Psi fixed it to match the other powers. I believe there're two more powers in XPH with the same issue; in any case, nothing got past CPsi with better than +1 DC for +2 PP....Except for those that were introduced in CPsi that started with +1 DC/pp...

Yes, CPsi is full of idiocy.

[PhoenixRivers]

...Except for those that were introduced in CPsi that started with +1 DC/pp...

Yes, CPsi is full of idiocy.

Point out one such power. Comp Psi has its problems, but scaling save DC's isn't one of them.

[Lycanthromancer]

Point out one such power. Comp Psi has its problems, but scaling save DC's isn't one of them.Celestial conduit, for one. There are a couple of others, IIRC. Oddly, the DC on fiendish conduit doesn't scale at all.

Also odd (or stupid), there are a lot of powers that have scaling DCs if you increase their damage without augmenting them, such as using Greater Psionic Fist, Aligned Attack, a greater chasuble of fell power, and various x/day damage-increasing items from the MiC to increase the number of dice of damage dealt by, say, energy flash.

[PhoenixRivers]

Celestial conduit, for one. There are a couple of others, IIRC. Oddly, the DC on fiendish conduit doesn't scale at all.

Also odd (or stupid), there are a lot of powers that have scaling DCs if you increase their damage without augmenting them, such as using Greater Psionic Fist, Aligned Attack, a greater chasuble of fell power, and various x/day damage-increasing items from the MiC to increase the number of dice of damage dealt by, say, energy flash.

Eh, I stand corrected.

I don't see an issue with DC not raising from other sources of damage increase. Does Empower Spell increase the save DC of a fireball? No.

The only thing that does is something that actually increases the level. As such, I have no problem restricting DC scaling to augmentation.

[Lycanthromancer]

Eh, I stand corrected.

I don't see an issue with DC not raising from other sources of damage increase. Does Empower Spell increase the save DC of a fireball? No.

The only thing that does is something that actually increases the level. As such, I have no problem restricting DC scaling to augmentation.What I was saying was increasing the DC via increasing damage isn't a good benchmark.

The powers say something to the effect of, "for every 2d6 points of damage dealt, the DC increases by 1." Add in +4d6 from wild surge, +4d6 from Greater Psionic Fist, +2d6 from a MIC item, and, say, +6d6 from Empower Power, and you've got +8 to the DC and +16d6 to damage (for the cost of 2 pp and 2 psionic foci). Not exactly an easy thing to overcome, and is just about as bad as the +1 DC/pp paradigm; it just takes a LITTLE bit more work (but not much).

[Samb]

...Except for those that were introduced in CPsi that started with +1 DC/pp...

Yes, CPsi is full of idiocy.

I'm so sick of this mentality. Tell me honestly Lycan, do you not use linked power? What about practised manifester? Energy barrage? Ever play an ardent? Synads (AKA: are extra mental actions good?)?

Just admit you are part of the unpleaseable base and we can move past your bias and have a real disscussion on optimizing.

[Lycanthromancer]

I'm so sick of this mentality. Tell me honestly Lycan, do you not use linked power? What about practised manifester? Energy barrage? Ever play an ardent? Synads (AKA: are extra mental actions good?)?

Just admit you are part of the unpleaseable base and we can move past your bias and have a real disscussion on optimizing.I use a grand total of TWO things from CPsi. Linked Power and the psychoactive skin of ectoplasmic armor, and the latter was hosed nerfed in the MIC.

I'm not saying there aren't a few nice things in there, but the vast majority is suck.

[Samb]

I use a grand total of TWO things from CPsi. Linked Power and the psychoactive skin of ectoplasmic armor, and the latter was hosed nerfed in the MIC.

I'm not saying there aren't a few nice things in there, but the vast majority is suck.

You know the skin of celestials let's you metamorph into a planetar right? They be cheap too. Well I guess you don't multiclass or go into PrCs, hence no need for practised manifest. I don't know how optimial a build you can have under such restrictions or you just suck up the lose in MLs but if you can do it then by all means.

Ardents with practised manifest=one hell of a Gish.

[Lycanthromancer]

You know the skin of celestials let's you metamorph into a planetar right? They be cheap too. Well I guess you don't multiclass or go into PrCs, hence no need for practised manifest. I don't know how optimial a build you can have under such restrictions or you just suck up the lose in MLs but if you can do it then by all means.

Ardents with practised manifest=one hell of a Gish.I generally only take one PrC, and those never lose more than 2 manifester levels at most (which isn't worth wasting a feat over). I suppose I might take it if I were playing into epic and decided on some metamind (for the cheese).

I'm not quite desperate enough to pull other stuff out of there, though, when I can homebrew my own.

[PhoenixRivers]

What I was saying was increasing the DC via increasing damage isn't a good benchmark.

The powers say something to the effect of, "for every 2d6 points of damage dealt, the DC increases by 1." Add in +4d6 from wild surge, +4d6 from Greater Psionic Fist, +2d6 from a MIC item, and, say, +6d6 from Empower Power, and you've got +8 to the DC and +16d6 to damage (for the cost of 2 pp and 2 psionic foci). Not exactly an easy thing to overcome, and is just about as bad as the +1 DC/pp paradigm; it just takes a LITTLE bit more work (but not much).

Yes. The powers say that. However, the powers don't do that standard. That's an augmentation effect. Only augmentation damage increases.

That's because items, powers, and meta that applies does not change the base damage of the ability. Just the final.

[Samb]

I generally only take one PrC, and those never lose more than 2 manifester levels at most (which isn't worth wasting a feat over). I suppose I might take it if I were playing into epic and decided on some metamind (for the cheese).

I'm not quite desperate enough to pull other stuff out of there, though, when I can homebrew my own.

Soooo you do just suck up the lose of ML, or you admit that ML just don't matter that much, or you don't dip into other classes for the class features or bonus feats. Sorry but you just shot your credibilty with me.

What you need to do is keep your optinions about CPsi to yourself and analyze the merits of each power, item, feat, class etc on it own. Regardless of what book it came from. If you show your bias then I will doubt your intergity and ability to make object and honest input.

As if "homebrew" was ever an adeque argument on these broads.

[Optimystik]

While I agree that CPsi could have done a lot of things better, I don't consider it quite as abysmal as its reputation has been on these boards. I agree that the PrCs do suck (except Soulbow, which is free online) but there's more to a splat book than prestige classes after all.

In particular I love Synads; double-move/full-round action and manifest a power in one turn is always handy (or manifest a power, then full attack for you Psiwar fans - all without losing your focus); they are also aberrations, and they get 1 more PP than Elan which is huge at low levels. I think the "ghostly heads" when you run out of PP are extremely cool fluff too, easily as creepy as anything a Binder can do.

In addition, it's not clear whether Collective can stack - the bonus is untyped, and there is no limit per day - so you can pump your Psicraft to ludicrous levels by spending power points; great to do with Erudite at the end of a day when you're about to try learning something new.

Finally, he can learn any bonus languages - that can come in handy if your INT starts out high, and why wouldn't it if you're a Psion/Erudite?

[Samb]

Just sick of people who use things from CPsi for every psionic PC they build and then insult it. Know what? Don't use Linked power, or Metapower, or Ardent, or Synad, or Erudite. Please nerf yourself because you can't seperate the trees from the forest.

Know why I play synad wilders? Because on the slim chance I ennervate I use multitask and I weasal out of it. It's a schism before a telepath can get schism and it doesn't give -6 ML.

Collective does stack, since it doesn't have a type or even a limit on how many times a day you can use it (other than your PP pool). All the other stuff Synads have is great too. +2 on Will saves, +2 on basically any d20 roll 1/day, extra mental actions, darkvision. You really can't go wrong with this race.

I know many disagree with me on ectopic form, but I like them. Yes they trade versatility for specialization but IMO I think it is worth it. I say that because many forms have 2 abilities and often one that is not found in the astral consturct ability menus. They often have better stats as well. So while a AC with boost construct would make up for less abilities, a ectopic form AC user could use a feat to get another specialized forms.


ground fighting: amber tunneler has burrow speed and gets better STR than a standard AC. It gets muscle to make this difference even higher. Anathemic carapace blows up when destroyed and puts people in a lose-lose situation since it can bull rush and you can just cast another one. Has a bunch of feats and deflection too. Personal favorite. Emerald Gyre starts with imp grab and trip, then gets pounce and celerity. Very potent.


air/flying: alabaster aerial has fly speed and deflection standard, and gains poinson touch later. Not too great, a regular AC would be better.

Water fighting: Astral Aquan has imp. swim, imp. slam and INA at lvl one. It then gainsresistane to cold and imp grab. Not too shabby.

Defense/tank: Iridescent serpent might be ideal for someone who like to blast as it is resistant to everything you can manifest. It has improved grab and great STR later on so you can grapple and blast.

If you find them too specialized you could take another one or take the PrC that gives you free ectopic form feats.

[Samb]

The OP asked for using minions and no one mentioned thrallherd....... one of the most broken PrC in XPH. Go and get thrallherd and you get a true to life thrall, not some free willed cohort. This guy will let you do true mind switch with it. He will use chiurgery to implant powers into your head, reform for more powers and add more into your head again, and even take the 100% of the XP cost. He is your free puppet/toy.

psion5/ectopic adept5/thrallherd 1 and you are a one man army with a metamorphed psicrystal, 1 thrall, and 2 ectopic constructs. Who needs a party?

[Lycanthromancer]

Soooo you do just suck up the lose of ML, or you admit that ML just don't matter that much, or you don't dip into other classes for the class features or bonus feats. Sorry but you just shot your credibilty with me.Manifester levels when coupled with everything they grant you (power points, powers, bonus power points from a high manifesting stat, and the ability to spend additional pp on your powers) are great. If Practiced Manifester granted you all of that, then sure, I'd take it in a heartbeat. But it doesn't. All it would grant me would be the ability to spend a single pp more (or maybe 2, if I took a PrC that lost that many) and it grants me +1 ML for the purposes of dispels and duration, which isn't that spectacular, generally. I can deal +1d6 damage, and my powers last one more round/minute/10 minutes/hour. Woo. Yes, it can be worth it, but feats are usually REALLY tight on a psionics build, meaning I can usually get more mileage out of what I have in mind for my feats than Practiced Manifester will give.

If that shoots my credibility with you, then so be it, but maybe you should try to figure out why I am saying what I'm saying. Perhaps I have a reason.


What you need to do is keep your optinions about CPsi to yourself and analyze the merits of each power, item, feat, class etc on it own. Regardless of what book it came from. If you show your bias then I will doubt your intergity and ability to make object and honest input.My 'bias' comes from looking through CPsi and not being particularly impressed with most of it. I'd much rather use something from Dreamscarred Press, or the Mind's Eye articles. I do believe I mentioned that there is some good stuff in Complete Psionic, but that far more of it is stuff I wouldn't touch with a 10-and-a-half foot pole.

I've given detailed accounts of why I dislike most of it. The fact that I don't rant on and on and on about it in every thread doesn't mean I don't still hold those same informed opinions. It just means I don't feel like throwing a novella out every time the subject comes up.


As if "homebrew" was ever an adequate argument on these broads.It does when the players of the specific game in question respect my game-development skills more than that of the people who wrote CPsi (sans Bruce Cordell, of course). Granted, the OP's likely doesn't, but either way it's a bad thing when sourcebooks are badly-written enough that people (and not just me) prefer 3rd party stuff to the official stuff.


Just sick of people who use things from CPsi for every psionic PC they build and then insult it. Know what? Don't use Linked power, or Metapower, or Ardent, or Synad, or Erudite. Please nerf yourself because you can't seperate the trees from the forest.I admitted that there were a few good things in CPsi, and I don't dispute that fact. The problem is that far too many things in CPsi are just plain bad, to the point where it's a faulty product, and that the few things in it that are decent aren't worth paying for everything else dripping out of the pages.

Also, erudite sucks. Nobody even knows how it was meant to be played, because of the errors therein (and of the many interpretations there are on how to do so, the class is either virtually useless without cheesing it up, or it's at the pinnacle of tier 1, bordering on tier 0)


Know why I play synad wilders? Because on the slim chance I ennervate I use multitask and I weasal out of it. It's a schism before a telepath can get schism and it doesn't give -6 ML.

Collective does stack, since it doesn't have a type or even a limit on how many times a day you can use it (other than your PP pool). All the other stuff Synads have is great too. +2 on Will saves, +2 on basically any d20 roll 1/day, extra mental actions, darkvision. You really can't go wrong with this race.And it's one of the better things in CPsi. Which, as you'll note, I've said all along.

Unfortunately, you also have the majority of the feats list which is either totally redundant (all of the racial psi-like feats and the soulknife weapon feats), goes 180-degrees to the pre-established flavor text of every other book out there (the illithid heritage feats), or don't work because the feats are badly written to the point of unplayability (Illithid Blast, for one).

If a company has so little respect for its customer base that this is the quality of what they produce, the fact that people complain so much should probably be a signpost of some sort.


I know many disagree with me on ectopic form, but I like them. Yes they trade versatility for specialization but IMO I think it is worth it. I say that because many forms have 2 abilities and often one that is not found in the astral consturct ability menus. They often have better stats as well. So while a AC with boost construct would make up for less abilities, a ectopic form AC user could use a feat to get another specialized forms.The power of astral construct comes from its insane flexibility. Boost Construct increases that flexibility, and thus, its powers. Ectopic Forms (aside from the anemic carapace and the amber tunneler) don't have any abilities that can't be gotten from menu abilities, nor can they be boosted via

Not only did they remove the best part about astral constructs (the flexibility), they also made the entirely nonsensical nerf of restricting manifesters to one construct at a time (in an attempt to fix a problem - wilders creating incredibly powerful constructs - that it totally doesn't counter at all). Then they made a PrC whose only purpose is to partially remove the nerf - and it doesn't even do that well, since you have to gimp yourself via lost manifester levels to do so.

If you have to blow a feat on an ectopic form, that means it should be comparable to Boost Construct, and it's not. The only possible exception is for the amber tunneler, and even that is considerably weaker than Boost Construct. Ectopic forms cannot receive the benefits of Boost Construct (they have no menu abilities, just racial abilities similar to menu abilities), so you have to choose between one or the other. I, and many others, would choose Boost Construct every time, since Ectopic Form actually reduces your flexibility due to being locked into a single choice, rather than expanding your possibilities, like Boost Construct.


ground fighting: amber tunneler has burrow speed and gets better STR than a standard AC. It gets muscle to make this difference even higher.I'd say this is the best of the lot, since it does something useful that no other construct can. IE, it can burrow. It does have a slightly higher Str, but not by that much, and you're generally better off spending a feat on Boost Construct rather than this.


Anathemic carapace blows up when destroyed and puts people in a lose-lose situation since it can bull rush and you can just cast another one. Has a bunch of feats and deflection too. Personal favorite. You're better off manifesting a direct-damage power, given the way the damage works. You can metapsionic it into usefulness, I guess, but without a lot of planning it's not that great. Yes, it's mildly useful, and is #2 on the list of better ectopic forms, but still not worth giving up Boost Construct and the general flexibility inherent in astral constructs for.


Emerald Gyre starts with imp grab and trip, then gets pounce and celerity. Very potent.It's decent at early levels, and yet standard astral constructs are better, due to actually being tailorable to the situation at hand. They're also more powerful later on, since you actually get more level menu abilities with Boost Construct. It's not something I'd ever take, because I don't like being straight-jacketed, though it might be useful occasionally.


air/flying: alabaster aerial has fly speed and deflection standard, and gains poinson touch later. Not too great, a regular AC would be better.Right.


Water fighting: Astral Aquan has imp. swim, imp. slam and INA at lvl one. It then gainsresistane to cold and imp grab. Not too shabby.Not too great, either. Might be useful in the right campaign, but not very much so outside of a seagoing campaign. Definitely not worth a feat otherwise.


Defense/tank: Iridescent serpent might be ideal for someone who like to blast as it is resistant to everything you can manifest. It has improved grab and great STR later on so you can grapple and blast.Your constructs will likely be in the thick of things with whoever else is in your group. Encouraging mindless blasting isn't necessarily a good thing. You're better off choosing menu abilities via Boost Construct that grant whatever resistances you want, since they can be swapped out when that isn't appropriate. Color me unimpressed.


If you find them too specialized you could take another one or take the PrC that gives you free ectopic form feats.Throwing good money after bad? Not a good idea, frankly. You could take 2 feats for mostly sub-par ectopic forms, or one feat to greatly improve a standard construct. No. Take levels of constructor instead, as it's vastly more useful than the anemic waste of feats - and class levels, for the ectopic adept - that the ectopic forms represent.

If they'd put all of those forms under one feat, it MIGHT just be worth it, but as it is, I wouldn't waste a precious feat on them.

[2xMachina]

Have your thrallherd be a thrallhard too. With good Cha, they can have an infinite chain of lvl 17 thralls. Too bad they manifest at lvl 16 only though. The end chain fella can be lvl 17 psion though.

[Samb]

Manifester levels when coupled with everything they grant you (power points, powers, bonus power points from a high manifesting stat, and the ability to spend additional pp on your powers) are great. If Practiced Manifester granted you all of that, then sure, I'd take it in a heartbeat. But it doesn't. All it would grant me would be the ability to spend a single pp more (or maybe 2, if I took a PrC that lost that many) and it grants me +1 ML for the purposes of dispels and duration, which isn't that spectacular, generally. I can deal +1d6 damage, and my powers last one more round/minute/10 minutes/hour. Woo. Yes, it can be worth it, but feats are usually REALLY tight on a psionics build, meaning I can usually get more mileage out of what I have in mind for my feats than Practiced Manifester will give.
The cardinal rule is: "Thou shall not lose ML" enuff said.

granted a psywar or lurk would not need that much ML to begin with but for a wilder or psion? Every drop counts. Don't even get me started on how vital practised manifester for an ardent.


My 'bias' comes from looking through CPsi and not being particularly impressed with most of it. I'd much rather use something from Dreamscarred Press, or the Mind's Eye articles. I do believe I mentioned that there is some good stuff in Complete Psionic, but that far more of it is stuff I wouldn't touch with a 10-and-a-half foot pole.

The same could be said about any DnD book. They can't all be winners, but just the fact that you can't make a psionic PC without CPsi means it did something right.



It does when the players of the specific game in question respect my game-development skills more than that of the people who wrote CPsi (sans Bruce Cordell, of course). Granted, the OP's likely doesn't, but either way it's a bad thing when sourcebooks are badly-written enough that people (and not just me) prefer 3rd party stuff to the official stuff.
I liked Untapped Potential, but there are a bunch of stuff I "wouldn't touch a 10 foot pole" either, yet I don't decry it as "the worst ever. Homebrew either belongs in homebrew or it is regarded as non standard.


I admitted that there were a few good things in CPsi, and I don't dispute that fact. The problem is that far too many things in CPsi are just plain bad, to the point where it's a faulty product, and that the few things in it that are decent aren't worth paying for everything else dripping out of the pages.

I fail to see the failures of CPsi to outweigh those of others in the complete series. CPsi at least has something I use for all my psi-builds. I can't say the same thing for complete adventure/scoundrel for my rogues.


Also, erudite sucks. Nobody even knows how it was meant to be played, because of the errors therein (and of the many interpretations there are on how to do so, the class is either virtually useless without cheesing it up, or it's at the pinnacle of tier 1, bordering on tier 0)

Meh I was refering to StP which is really awesome. But that is for another time.


And it's one of the better things in CPsi. Which, as you'll note, I've said all along.

Unfortunately, you also have the majority of the feats list which is either totally redundant (all of the racial psi-like feats and the soulknife weapon feats), goes 180-degrees to the pre-established flavor text of every other book out there (the illithid heritage feats), or don't work because the feats are badly written to the point of unplayability (Illithid Blast, for one).

Again, other complete books have their faults too. But other players are able to take the good with the bad. I don't understand why it is so difficult for psionic fans to do the same.


If a company has so little respect for its customer base that this is the quality of what they produce, the fact that people complain so much should probably be a signpost of some sort.

Don't take it so personal.



The power of astral construct comes from its insane flexibility. Boost Construct increases that flexibility, and thus, its powers. Ectopic Forms (aside from the anemic carapace and the amber tunneler) don't have any abilities that can't be gotten from menu abilities, nor can they be boosted via

Well I did say you lose flexibilty for specialization. They also usually get more abilities for the same level than their normal AC counterparts.



Not only did they remove the best part about astral constructs (the flexibility), they also made the entirely nonsensical nerf of restricting manifesters to one construct at a time (in an attempt to fix a problem - wilders creating incredibly powerful constructs - that it totally doesn't counter at all). Then they made a PrC whose only purpose is to partially remove the nerf - and it doesn't even do that well, since you have to gimp yourself via lost manifester levels to do so.
Yeah that sucked, I don't deny it. HET only draining for 25 sucked too, the change on energy stun wasn't cool either. But hey, take the good with the bad. I usually use ectopic forms with ardent because it's a free feat (via creation mantle) and it has always gotten the job done. Granted, I did lose flexibilty, but I knew the risks.



I'd say this is the best of the lot, since it does something useful that no other construct can. IE, it can burrow. It does have a slightly higher Str, but not by that much, and you're generally better off spending a feat on Boost Construct rather than this.
This is very weak argument as you did not back it up with any proof. You admit that it has more STR and tunnel but then just say AC is better. At least say something like "Dimensional slide can kind of do the same thing when not fighting underground".




You're better off manifesting a direct-damage power, given the way the damage works. You can metapsionic it into usefulness, I guess, but without a lot of planning it's not that great. Yes, it's mildly useful, and is #2 on the list of better ectopic forms, but still not worth giving up Boost Construct and the general flexibility inherent in astral constructs for.
This is not for the damage. It is to create a walking bomb that puts your oppenent in a conundrum: do I leave this spider alone and let it harass me, or do I kill it and take damage? Obviously, manifesting a damage dealing power is better at dealing damage (duh) but that isn't what this form was made for. It's to wear the opposition down, and when they finally decide to kill it you just manifest another one.



It's decent at early levels, and yet standard astral constructs are better, due to actually being tailorable to the situation at hand. They're also more powerful later on, since you actually get more level menu abilities with Boost Construct. It's not something I'd ever take, because I don't like being straight-jacketed, though it might be useful occasionally.
Again "straight-jacket" is the point. At level one it gets 2 menu selections, one of them from B (imp grab). At later levels yes, it does lose its edge.


Not too great, either. Might be useful in the right campaign, but not very much so outside of a seagoing campaign. Definitely not worth a feat otherwise.
Again it was made for sea combat, which it does well. Remember the whole trade off?



Your constructs will likely be in the thick of things with whoever else is in your group. Encouraging mindless blasting isn't necessarily a good thing. You're better off choosing menu abilities via Boost Construct that grant whatever resistances you want, since they can be swapped out when that isn't appropriate. Color me unimpressed.
Umm you can only select one element from the menu not 4. Color you.....misguided. It has improved grapple so use it..... grapple someone and isolate them. I really had 1v1 in mind but in a big fight that's what you do.



Throwing good money after bad? Not a good idea, frankly.
That's like saying "your opinion is wrong because it isn't my opinion", you can do better.



You could take 2 feats for mostly sub-par ectopic forms, or one feat to greatly improve a standard construct. No. Take levels of constructor instead, as it's vastly more useful than the anemic waste of feats - and class levels, for the ectopic adept - that the ectopic forms represent.
Thing thing about constructer, a great PrC BTW is you don't get 2 construct until 8 levels in, while with ectopic form you can fit it in with a level of thrallherd. If the OP asked for a level 14 build I'd say psion 5/constructer 8/thrallherd 1, but he didn't, he asked for a level 11 build and that's what I gave him.



If they'd put all of those forms under one feat, it MIGHT just be worth it, but as it is, I wouldn't waste a precious feat on them.

I'd say it's about even, you just have a preference for versatility, which is fine, but don't try to strong-arm other people into it.

[Arakune]

Wasn't astral contruct supposed to simulate the Summon Monster line of spells?