Xykon vs. The SG. What would you do?

[Acero]

one of the greatest fights in OOTS is when Xkyon took on the Sapphire Guard.

if you where in either of their situations,what would you do?

take on the story ones, or a tactic devised by one of your fellow forumers.

Please don't just say 'I'd do what he/they did in the story'.


If I was Xykon: (remember to use the spells he has, not just any spells)

1. stay in the air as long as possible
2. Take out as many flying paladins as I can w/ Meteor Swarm before someone casts Dispel Magic
3. Cloudkill from the skies or Fire/Lightning on the ground(for the fun of it)

If I were in charge of defending the throne room:
1. Build a large wall. cover one side w/ explosive runes.
2. trick Xkyon to read it
3. Charge over the remains of the walls
4.Have casters Dispel Magic continuously
5. Have some of the melee Turn Undead
6. Have the rest Smite evil.

[archon_huskie]

If I was Xykon, I would cast symbol of insanity on a sphere of rubber and toss it at them.

If I was the SG, I'd set up one of the anti-magic fields from the prison in the throne room.

[Acero]

If I was the SG, I'd set up one of the anti-magic fields from the prison in the throne room.

remember, that cancels SG magic, too

[Tavar]

The magic of a high level Lich is much more dangerous than that of the mid level clerics/paladins.

[Kish]

remember, that cancels SG magic, too
Well, that's a compelling reason not to do it when you're fighting an epic-level lich sorcerer with an army of mostly-low-level paladins.

No one in the Sapphire Guard could dispel any spell Xykon cast, he's too much higher level than them, and actually turning Xykon? Not a chance. If I were Xykon, I'd make their inevitable defeat humiliating, just as he did. If I were the Sapphire Guard and I couldn't somehow set up an anti-magic field in the throne room, I'd lunge at him knowing that my death was inevitable but my ghost would be a surprise for him...just as they did.

[Acero]

No one in the Sapphire Guard could dispel any spell Xykon cast, he's too much higher level than them, and actually turning Xykon?

It's mostly for a distraction. one or two might actually turn him.
The Paladins are Mid-Level. To me, that's levels 8-13. some could get through.

[paladinofshojo]

What I don't get is why the paladins didn't have spellcasters casting any type of anti-magical aid towards them? I'm sure that if I'm fighting a nearly unstoppable force of arcane magic, I would atleast have some protection readilly available

[Optimystik]

If I were Soon, I would have either focused on Xykon and taken him out with a few full-attacks, or KO-ed Redcloak. Flitting about between the two and wasting valuable time talking was what lost that battle.

Yes, I know talking is a free action. Not always.

[Kish]

It's mostly for a distraction. one or two might actually turn him.
The Paladins are Mid-Level. To me, that's levels 8-13. some could get through.

Turning Check Result for 22 or higher means Most Powerful Undead Affected
(Maximum Hit Dice) equal to Cleric’s level +4 (this is, incidentally, Paladin's Level +2)...

Which living Sapphire Guard paladin are you suggesting is only two levels below Xykon?

No. None could get through. If any of them used Turn Undead against Xykon, the only way it might do any good would be if he disabled himself laughing.

[archon_huskie]

epic lich vs mid-level paladins. better to eliminate the lich's advantage over the SG.

[newcresty]

Funny, i do remember a sociopathic etnocentric power-mad zealot bitch destroying the gate when soon was about to finish the two of them. The defense of the guard was no perfect, but it succeded (at that point Miko wasn't a paladin anymore, therefore not a member of the SG). Soon defeated Xykon and Reddy, the only reason he didn't kill them both, well plot. Killing xykon is Roy's task, and Redcloak still got too much to say and do in this story.

That said, I don't think the throne room can be putted under an antimagical field, cause, you know, the gate is there, and is prretty sure bound by magical ways, as it was a druid and a wizard who sealed it, so, there a chance that nullyfying magic make things even worse, then agian the gate was destroyed so never mind.

As for the strategy, the paladins knew they were going to die, they were just trying to do all the damage they could before that, also, that gives the point why there was no paladin near the gate, just waitin for an order from O-Chul to destroy the gate at the first signs of defeat (because as ghost they can hit materials signs, Soon demostrate that when he says he can destroy the philactery by himself, but can instruct any who enter the room to do such).

And for Xykon, well, he stated it clearly, blast with fire and lightning from above, a few meteor swarm would have done the trick, but sometime, it's worth to go the extra mile.

Finally, i apologize for any typo or mispelling, english is not my native language, but I do my best to improve. Any gramar corrections are apreciated.

[Larspcus2]

Call in the requisite caster that will be in any city I run who casts explosive runes on a sheets of paper every single day. With energy substitution spells on some of them, of course.

Alternatively, if you don't want to horribly abuse rules, have someone run up to Xykon and place a portable hole in a bag of holding.

[Zevox]

Turning Check Result for 22 or higher means Most Powerful Undead Affected
(Maximum Hit Dice) equal to Cleric’s level +4 (this is, incidentally, Paladin's Level +2)...

Which living Sapphire Guard paladin are you suggesting is only two levels below Xykon?

No. None could get through. If any of them used Turn Undead against Xykon, the only way it might do any good would be if he disabled himself laughing.
It's worse than that - as a Lich, Xykon has Turn Resistance +4. Which means his HD counts as 4 higher than it really is for the purposes of Turn Undead. You'd need a Cleric of equal level to him or a Paladin two levels higher than him to have even a slim hope of turning him. Anything less is a waste of time.

Similar can be said of Dispel Magic. That's 1d20+caster level vs DC 10+target caster level. Given what we know of Xykon's level, the minimum DC to dispel one of his spells is 36. Meaning you need a level 16 straight caster to have even a minimum hope of dispelling his magic. Even the Order isn't that high level yet, and they've gotten stronger since that battle.

Zevox

[Acero]

sorry. i'm not a D&D numbers guy. my apologies.

okay, so is their anyway the SG could have beaten Xykon without becoming Those ghost things?

[Surrealistik]

Sentry Gun wins. Just look at this badass (http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Sentry_gun). Dual high calibre chain guns, integrated missile pack, 165 average DPS, 100% accuracy. That's one dead lich; unless he can conjure some sticky bombs.

[Douglas]

okay, so is their anyway the SG could have beaten Xykon without becoming Those ghost things?
If they could have gotten Xykon into an Antimagic Field and blocked any way to walk out of it, they might have had a chance. He still could have tried to dispel it with Superb Dispelling, and unless his ability to succeed on the spellcraft check for that depends on magic items it would probably have worked. He can't do that more than 2 or 3 times per day at most, though, less if he's used Epic Mage Armor, so if the SG could recast Antimagic Field a few times that would be the end of it. A full caster completely denied his magic against a horde of melee warriors is one slaughtered full caster.

Pretty much, if Xykon can bring his spells to bear then he wins. There is nothing the Sapphire Guard can do to change that. Their only chance, then, lay in preventing him from ever using a spell, and the only reliable way to pull that off is Antimagic Field, cast multiple times. There's just one problem: the Sapphire Guard didn't have anyone able to cast Antimagic Field. Shojo only had a single wizard high enough level to cast Teleport, he was a tad dead after the Cliffport debacle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html), and Antimagic Field requires an even higher level wizard. Vaarsuvius might have been able to do the job, but I doubt V would have accepted that tactic before hir recent learning experience even if someone had suggested it.

[Acero]

how large can an anti-magic field be?

[Mystic Muse]

I'd run/tenchars =P

[Larspcus2]

He still could have tried to dispel it with Superb Dispelling.
Not by RAW. Superb dispelling functions as dispel magic, and anti-magic field isn't affected by dispel magic.

[Sewblon]

If I were Xykon, the symbol of insanity on the rubber ball worked pretty well, so I would still use that, I would just keep flying so that none of them would get to use Smite Evil on me. Against the Ghost Martyrs, I would cast Maximized Energy Drain on Soon until I ran out of high-level slots, that is the only spell of Xykon's that I know of that would have much effect on an epic positive energy spirit. If I were the SG, I would retreat.

[Douglas]

how large can an anti-magic field be?
Normally? 10' radius sphere. Applying Widen Spell would make it 20' radius, but that would take a wizard 4 levels higher than V at the time. They'd have to catch Xykon by surprise with it (not especially difficult) and forcibly prevent him from leaving that rather small area (quite a bit harder).


Not by RAW. Superb dispelling functions as dispel magic, and anti-magic field isn't affected by dispel magic.
By absolute strict RAW, maybe. By almost completely certain RAI and rules as I believe most DMs, including Rich, would play with, this rule overrides that:
Antimagic field does not automatically suppress epic spells as it does standard spells. Instead, each time an epic spell is subject to an antimagic field, make a dispel check as a 20th-level caster (1d20 + 20). The epic spell has a DC of 11 + the epic spell’s spellcaster level. If the suppression check is successful, the epic spell is suppressed like any other spell. If the dispel check is unsuccessful, the epic spell functions normally. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#dispellingEpicSpellsAndAntimagicFi eld)

Additionally, if you take the text of Superb Dispelling to be primarily a summarization, the full rules text of the Dispel seed it's based on says The dispel seed can defeat all spells, even those not normally subject to dispel magic. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/dispel.htm)

The AMF would have a chance to suppress Xykon's Superb Dispelling. If that check failed, Superb Dispelling would get to try dispelling AMF just like any other spell.

[Optimystik]

I too consider the ruling of Superb Dispelling vs. AMF to be ambiguous, for exactly those reasons. Certainly it gives Rich enough wiggle-room to not have AMF be a lock vs. Xykon.

[hamishspence]

Where was Superb Dispelling ruled to not work on antimagic fields?

Going by the description of the epic dispel seed, it should work on anything- including spells that cannot normally be dispelled.

[licoot]

Get the MitD to play who can punch the other the lightest with xykon, and if that doesn't work have the same trap set up as Dorukan used on a box around the throne

[Douglas]

Where was Superb Dispelling ruled to not work on antimagic fields?

Going by the description of the epic dispel seed, it should work on anything- including spells that cannot normally be dispelled.
The problem is that Superb Dispelling has its own text which states, in its entirety, "As greater dispel magic, except that the maximum bonus on the dispel check is +40, and the character takes 10d6 points of backlash damage. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/superbDispelling.htm)"

"As Greater Dispel Magic" => "As Dispel Magic" => Superb Dispelling fails to affect AMF, just like Dispel Magic would.

I call it lazy editors who couldn't be bothered to retype (or copy&paste) the differences from the Dispel seed. I would rule that the AMF vs epic spells rule and the details of the Dispel seed take precedence in this case, and I expect the vast majority of DMs would do likewise, but Superb Dispelling's own text does provide RAW basis for it to be ineffective against AMF.

[Optimystik]

It does not elaborate WHY it would be ineffective, and I fully believe that the intent was for the field to suppress any dispelling magic before it could take effect on the spell generating it.

But because Superb Dispelling is epic, it has a chance to get through the field without being suppressed.

You could even dispel the field while already inside it, because AMF does not prevent spellcasting at all. It merely suppresses the effects of those spells. This leaves Xykon with a nasty surprise for any bumrushing dragons/clerics.

[rewinn]

sorry. i'm not a D&D numbers guy. my apologies.

okay, so is their anyway the SG could have beaten Xykon without becoming Those ghost things?Hinjo, their Commander, "...honest [did] not expect it..." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html)

... so I think there isn't really any way.

Now, we could imagine ways involved changing their very nature, e.g. warding the throne room with runes like Dorukan or illusions like Gerard. But that's making them something other than the SG.

Their defense was their honor, unbreakable even by death itself. Getting killed wasn't really something they feared, so long as they accomplished their mission, which they would have if not for you-know-who.

[Shale]

The thing is that any epic magic description is just a summary of the seed and modifiers used to create it. The details of their descriptions take precedence over the precis.

[Milandros]

While I agree some believe that "mid-level" means level 13+ - heck, some have never created characters at less than 20th level - I suspect that Rich is more of an old-schooler and regards levels 5-10 as "mid-level".

The sapphire guard had little hope, except possibly to win initiative and all charge for lay-on-hands touch attacks - and that was unlikely. Maybe if they had enough resources they could have used positive energy crossbow bolts and created enough of a missile storm that the occasional 20 would be rolled (assuming that SOD Xykon's ring doesn't protect from all the positive energy anyway or just used huge numbers of sonic energy magical silver maces to attack him with.

If they had enough skills and resources a few clay golems would have made a huge difference. Immunity to magic makes Xykon a lot weaker.

I really, really wouldn't put an anti-magic field up around the *magical* gate that seals away a planet-destroying monster... :)

Xykon fought badly. he should have backed off and returned with a few dozen clerics. There was no hurry - the gate wasn't going anywhere and if he'd waited until the battle was won then he could have gone in with considerable turning power at his side. Maybe - maybe - he could have used a few area-effect spells to clear out some of the ghost-martyrs (yes, they have a 50% miss chance, but three meteor swarms would still likely remove quite a few of them).

[Asta Kask]

Their defense was their honor, unbreakable even by death itself. Getting killed wasn't really something they feared, so long as they accomplished their mission, which they would have if not for you-know-who.

Voldemort?!?!? I didn't see him.

[martinkou]

Right after Miko killed Shoujo, have OOtS execute Miko on the spot.

No Miko = no gate destruction later = both Redcloak and Xykon are dead.

Also, antimagic field, and have a few casters to put it back up if Xykon manages to disjunct it. Xykon may still manage to get a few epic spells through, but what the SG has a massive advantage in terms of number. 12 Paladins hacking at the lich with katanas + another 12 Rangers shooting the lich + another 12 Clerics ready to heal everyone or blast Xykon with Searing Light/Cure X Wound = Dead epic lich in a few rounds. I highly doubt Xykon can even succeed his concentration check in any round.


While I agree some believe that "mid-level" means level 13+ - heck, some have never created characters at less than 20th level - I suspect that Rich is more of an old-schooler and regards levels 5-10 as "mid-level".


Xykon personally said Darth V is a "mid level ass". V without the Darth part is at least level 14. So mid-level should be roughly level 12 - 16 (give or take one or two, both sides) in this comic.

[Trixie]

Soon defeated Xykon and Reddy, the only reason he didn't kill them both, well plot. Killing xykon is Roy's task, and Redcloak still got too much to say and do in this story.

Um, let me point out that he barely defeated Xykon that was using first level spells (and that was after more than a dozen rounds of using ineffective spells) and only because lich did the stupid thing and panicked. The gap in power was so great, that if he instead attacked one more that that would have ended the battle with Soon going 'pop!'. And if he actually stopped to think for a second using his immense knowledge/arcane instead of trying to hammer his way in, he would have finished cleaning the floor with Soon's face even before Redcloak barged in :smallamused:


He can't do that more than 2 or 3 times per day at most, though, less if he's used Epic Mage Armor, so if the SG could recast Antimagic Field a few times that would be the end of it.

There's no way he had that on in this fight, as then no one in that room would been able to touch him at all. Force effect type armor bonus easily stops incorporeal creatures.


Right after Miko killed Shoujo, have OOtS execute Miko on the spot.

No Miko = no gate destruction later = both Redcloak and Xykon are dead.

Maybe you were reading other comic, but in OotS, Miko was the last human to enter that room. No Miko = Xykon regenerating, blasting Soon's ass out of the sky, Redcloak being raisedeaded, gate captured, end of story. Ghosts were unable to touch material things, remember? :smallamused:


Also, antimagic field with oh-so-enormous visible radius smaller than the height of the roof, and have a few already dead casters to put it back up if Xykon manages to disjunct it. Xykon may still manage to get a few epic spells through, but what the SG has a massive advantage in terms of number. 12 Paladins hacking never managing to hit him at all save for odd nat 20 at the lich with katanas + another 12 Rangers shooting the lich Um, if you ever saw lich template you'd notice the DR and its types + another 12 Clerics ready to heal everyone or blast Xykon with Searing Light/Cure X Wound Either killed instantly, or not present at all, and he was immune to all of that anyway = Dead epic lich band of good guys in a few rounds. I highly doubt Xykon can even succeed his concentration check in any round. Yeah, that's going to work on someone capable of rolling 40+ on his skill checks :smallsigh:

Fix' it for ya. :smallamused:


Xykon personally said Darth V is a "mid level ass". V without the Darth part is at least level 14. So mid-level should be roughly level 12 - 16 (give or take one or two, both sides) in this comic.

When you're level 26+, yes, level 13 is mid-level to you. To the rest of the world, they should be monstrously powerful heroes.

[Zevox]

Maybe you were reading other comic, but in OotS, Miko was the last human to enter that room. No Miko = Xykon regenerating, blasting Soon's ass out of the sky, Redcloak being raisedeaded, gate captured, end of story. Ghosts were unable to touch material things, remember? :smallamused:
You honestly think that no other person would enter the throne room in the at least one day (potentially as much as 10 days) it would take Xykon to regenerate? Or that Xykon has Clerics in his employ other than Redcloak powerful enough to cast Raise Dead?

Zevox

[Kish]

You honestly think that no other person would enter the throne room in the at least one day (potentially as much as 10 days) it would take Xykon to regenerate? Or that Xykon has Clerics in his employ other than Redcloak powerful enough to cast Raise Dead?

Zevox
Or that Xykon could regenerate and "blast Soon's ass out of the sky" while his phylactery was right next to Soon, and his body would gradually regrow there, starting with his helpless skull? (Setting aside, by reason of not actually getting that far, the question of whether a regenerated Xykon would have any more spell slots available that day than he had when he got smashed.)

[factotum]

Right after Miko killed Shoujo, have OOtS execute Miko on the spot.

No Miko = no gate destruction later = both Redcloak and Xykon are dead.


Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but if you happened to be Hinjo standing in that throne room you wouldn't know that Miko would go on to destroy the Gate and thereby inadvertently save the BBEG from certain doom. Therefore your only reason for executing Miko would be an act of petty revenge for her killing your uncle, which would probably see you taking a one-way trip to beige street as well! After all, what Paladin have we seen who thinks that taking the law into their own hands is a good move? That's right, Miko...

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Funny, i do remember a sociopathic etnocentric power-mad zealot bitch destroying the gate when soon was about to finish the two of them. The defense of the guard was no perfect, but it succeded (at that point Miko wasn't a paladin anymore, therefore not a member of the SG). Soon defeated Xykon and Reddy, the only reason he didn't kill them both, well plot. Killing xykon is Roy's task, and Redcloak still got too much to say and do in this story.



Actually, you make a very good point -- Xykon and Redcloak were defeated, and on the point of death, when Miko managed to give them the distraction necessary to escape and fight again another day. :smallamused: Soon's arrangement was actually sufficient to deal with the problem -- except for the wacky loose cannon, Miko, for which he couldn't make much provision anyway.

[Thanatosia]

Also, antimagic field, and have a few casters to put it back up if Xykon manages to disjunct it. Xykon may still manage to get a few epic spells through, but what the SG has a massive advantage in terms of number. 12 Paladins hacking at the lich with katanas + another 12 Rangers shooting the lich + another 12 Clerics ready to heal everyone or blast Xykon with Searing Light/Cure X Wound = Dead epic lich in a few rounds. I highly doubt Xykon can even succeed his concentration check in any round.
I dont think the SG had any hope of winning short of the Ghost Matyrs tact (wich did work -Miko). Even with an antimagic field, I'm pretty sure Xykon's Damage Reduction would have given him plenty of time to paralyze the SG one at a time with his touch attack or crush them with his bare phlanges if that's what it took - unless AM fiends shut down his paralyzing touch power, then O-chul could have probably taken him on in melee combat and won.

[The Extinguisher]

Actually, I'm surprised they didn't use an anti-magic field. They seem to be able to stick them in their jails, so why not the throne room for a fight against an epic sorcerer?

[MReav]

If I was the Sapphire Guard and I was expecting Xykon? I'd arm my troops with bludgeoning weapons then use AMF (can't use his touch attacks because they are supernatural). Without magic, he's basically a high hit dice skeleton. To keep him from casting spells though? Grapple. I'd have the entire SG dogpile on Xykon inside the AMF and with 20+ paladins. Then punch him (since his DR is now Bludgeoning only I can overcome that easily).

This is ideal. Not realistic.

[Bibliomancer]

Um, let me point out that he barely defeated Xykon that was using first level spells (and that was after more than a dozen rounds of using ineffective spells) and only because lich did the stupid thing and panicked. The gap in power was so great, that if he instead attacked one more that that would have ended the battle with Soon going 'pop!'. And if he actually stopped to think for a second using his immense knowledge/arcane instead of trying to hammer his way in, he would have finished cleaning the floor with Soon's face even before Redcloak barged in :smallamused:

Xykon didn't have any spells that were effective against ghosts more than half the time, which is why he started using Magic Missile. Xykon was fighting to the limit of his capacity. Besides, if Soon had killed Redcloak before he healed Xykon, Xykon would have fallen rapidly. Xykon was using optimal tactics and Soon wasn't, and Soon was close to victory with nary a scratch in his ectoplasm.


There's no way he had that on in this fight, as then no one in that room would been able to touch him at all. Force effect type armor bonus easily stops incorporeal creatures.

Well, either he didn't think to prepare to fight ghosts, or Girard is a better illusionist than I thought.


Maybe you were reading other comic, but in OotS, Miko was the last human to enter that room. No Miko = Xykon regenerating, blasting Soon's ass out of the sky, Redcloak being raisedeaded, gate captured, end of story. Ghosts were unable to touch material things, remember? :smallamused:

And no-one would check in on the throne room after the battle? Really?






Also, antimagic field with oh-so-enormous visible radius smaller than the height of the roof, and have a few already dead casters to put it back up if Xykon manages to disjunct it. Xykon may still manage to get a few epic spells through, but what the SG has a massive advantage in terms of number. 12 Paladins hacking never managing to hit him at all save for odd nat 20 at the lich with katanas + another 12 Rangers shooting the lich Um, if you ever saw lich template you'd notice the DR and its types + another 12 Clerics ready to heal everyone or blast Xykon with Searing Light/Cure X Wound Either killed instantly, or not present at all, and he was immune to all of that anyway = Dead epic lich band of good guys in a few rounds. I highly doubt Xykon can even succeed his concentration check in any round. Yeah, that's going to work on someone capable of rolling 40+ on his skill checks


Fix' it for ya. :smallamused:

They could have cast AMF multiple times, and once is all they need to grapple Xykon. Xykon has not used Disjunction in the comic, and probably does not have it, and Superb Dispelling would likely be ineffective. Also, you can't cast if you are grappled. Yes, numbers wouldn't be that helpful, but if Soon had stabbed him in the back while the rest of the paladins guarded the door to keep Redcloak out, Xykon would have fallen. I doubt that RC could get by O'chul. Yes. failing a Concentration check would be unlikely, hardly relevant is he was, say, stuck to a wall by Sovereign Glue inside an AMF.

[Shale]

Maybe you were reading other comic, but in OotS, Miko was the last human to enter that room. No Miko = Xykon regenerating, blasting Soon's ass out of the sky, Redcloak being raisedeaded, gate captured, end of story. Ghosts were unable to touch material things, remember? :smallamused:


The Order was preparing to get to the tower when it exploded. Do you really think Redcloak would have been raised - which would require goblin clerics, who he took with him to the slaughter in that throne room - before they found a way in?

[Douglas]

Xykon has not used Disjunction in the comic, and probably does not have it
Make that "almost definitely". All 3 of his 9th level spells known are well known by now. The only way he could have another one would be to spend Yet Another Epic Feat on it, and the number of epic feats he's known to definitely have is already pushing his minimum level rather high.

[Da'Shain]

I mean ... even if Xykon had been defeated in that battle, wasn't the battle over by that point? The OotS might have been able to fight their way upstairs past the entire army of hobbos, but even they were very unlikely to be able to do so, not with their leader dead, their main caster MIA with no spells left, and their cleric also likely already low on spells. The destruction of the throne room was what sealed the deal, but even without it Sapphire City was lost.

So while Soon might indeed have won and killed Redcloak, there weren't any humans coming that would smash the phylactery, and there's gotta be at least one or two low-to-mid-level hobbos that can survive darting in for Redcloak's body and darting back out. Of course, there might indeed not be anyone capable of raising him (although I think Jirix is supposed to be decently high level, dunno if he's 9th or not). Once RC's body is out of there, they can take their time cracking the throne room while Xykon regenerates.

This is, of course, assuming that the hobbos aren't complete idiots in Redcloak's absence, which is not at all a given. Still, I think there's a fairly good chance that Redcloak and Xykon would pretty much have a doover, and considering how many of the SG ghosts they smoked it wouldn't even be a contest the second time. So, even without Miko destroying the gate, it's perfectly possible for them to survive (well, Xykon to survive, Redcloak to be raised) and win in the end anyway.

[Optimystik]

Superb Dispelling would likely be ineffective.

What makes you think that? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/dispel.htm)

Also - removing the somatic components from SD adds a mere +2 to the DC, making grapples a nonissue.

[Irbis]

You honestly think that no other person would enter the throne room in the at least one day (potentially as much as 10 days) it would take Xykon to regenerate? Or that Xykon has Clerics in his employ other than Redcloak powerful enough to cast Raise Dead?

1. Perhaps you missed the part with the castle being captured by goblins? Next person = Xykon's ally, not human.

2. He had, and even if he didn't, Xykon would have forced clerics to battle normal goblins and undead till one was of required level.


Or that Xykon could regenerate and "blast Soon's ass out of the sky" while his phylactery was right next to Soon, and his body would gradually regrow there, starting with his helpless skull? (Setting aside, by reason of not actually getting that far, the question of whether a regenerated Xykon would have any more spell slots available that day than he had when he got smashed.)

Use a fishing rod, drag the phylactery outside, problem solved. Or...

As for Soon - he was on his hast legs, too. A few more magic missiles, which the goblins had, and no more Mr Fu Manchu. Goblins standing just outside the door witnessed the fight and were capable of doing both, until Miko killed them.

Redcloak and Xykon would have held the gate next day, at most.


If I was the Sapphire Guard and I was expecting Xykon? I'd arm my troops with bludgeoning weapons then use AMF (can't use his touch attacks because they are supernatural).

And suppressed/destroyed the gate? Great.

Besides, big news flash - AMF isn't end-all. Instantaneous spells from outside, such as Symbols or Orb of Xs work just fine, allowing Xykon to kill them even easier.

Besides with use of AMF, even if destroy Xykon, all you accomplish is 1st level goblins shooting you to death using non-magical bows from outside of the room.


And no-one would check in on the throne room after the battle? Really?

Yes, 30.000 goblins parked just outside, with 4-5 witnessing the whole battle and passing knowledge to casters.


Also, you can't cast if you are grappled.

O RLY (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html)? :smallamused:

To grapple, first you need to force him into range. With visible, small sphere Xykon can avoid just by flying above their heads - how exactly? Cast Fly? Oh :smallamused:


I doubt that RC could get by O'chul.

You mean the paralyzed statue? Yeah, big problem.

10 strips later, barely healed Redcloak kicked Hinjo's ass, and he was of higher level.

You know, watching you grasp illusory straws to somehow claim that two Tier 1 classes are inferior to Tier 4 class is... amusing, to say the least. :smalltongue:

[Zevox]

1. Perhaps you missed the part with the castle being captured by goblins? Next person = Xykon's ally, not human.
And you honestly think the hobgoblins would have won the battle with both of their leaders dead? It was, after all, the destruction of the gate that signaled to the defenders that they had lost. It was after that that the retreat occurred. Take out Redcloak and Xykon and you get the reverse effect - once anyone discovers it has happened (which may take as little as Soon leaving the throne room briefly to inform the nearest soldier, or even simply shouting), it'll shatter the hobgoblin morale and rally the defenders. And even if it took a while for it to become known, the Hobgoblins will lack direction without Redcloak, making them easier to fight.

Also remember that if Soon can kill Redcloak and Xykon, he can certainly slay any less soldier in their army who blunders into the throne room while he's waiting for someone to destroy Xykon's phylactery. Especially given they can't even hurt him without magical weapons.


2. He had,
Please don't make assertions like that if you lack evidence for them. They're meaningless.


and even if he didn't, Xykon would have forced clerics to battle normal goblins and undead till one was of required level.
Interesting hypothesis, but it requires that Xykon survive himself first. Which, if Soon destroys him, he cannot do.

Zevox

[Da'Shain]

And you honestly think the hobgoblins would have won the battle with both of their leaders dead? It was, after all, the destruction of the gate that signaled to the defenders that they had lost. It was after that that the retreat occurred.Yes, because they already had. The battle was won already at that point, with only a few scattered points of resistance, the majority of ships gone, and the walls entirely breached. The courtyard of the castle was filled with hobbos, shoulder to shoulder, and there's no sign of any Azurites anywhere nearby aside from the remnants of the OotS and Hinjo.


Take out Redcloak and Xykon and you get the reverse effect - once anyone discovers it has happened (which may take as little as Soon leaving the throne room briefly to inform the nearest soldier, or even simply shouting), it'll shatter the hobgoblin morale and rally the defenders.I'd be prepared to bet that Soon isn't easily able to leave the throne room chamber, and if he does the hobbos will drag Redcloak's body out. A shout won't reach anyone of consequence, considering he's hundreds of feet up in the air and the only people even close are the aforementioned exhausted OotS and Hinjo.


And even if it took a while for it to become known, the Hobgoblins will lack direction without Redcloak, making them easier to fight.Yes, but by who? The OotS is sans leader and arcane support, their cleric is nearly out of spells, and their replacement meat shield is already pretty banged up. Even as the highest level characters left (although Tsukiko's still out there, and may or may not side with the hobbos), there's almost no way they're getting through the mass of hobgoblins, especially since not all of them are only 1st level. And they're not bereft of leadership, because the hobbo general would still be alive if the Gate hadn't been destroyed.


Also remember that if Soon can kill Redcloak and Xykon, he can certainly slay any less soldier in their army who blunders into the throne room while he's waiting for someone to destroy Xykon's phylactery. Especially given they can't even hurt him without magical weapons.Again, the main goal in that case would be simply recovering Redcloak's body with Xykon's phylactery on it; even given that Soon can kill a hobbo with one hit, he can still only hit one a round as long as they're moving and/or spread out. They've already proven that they're willing to die for their leader; all they need in this case is a modicum of intelligence.


Please don't make assertions like that if you lack evidence for them. They're meaningless.Well we know Jirix has at least a few levels (since he survived God-V's Chain Lightning and almost certainly did not make a reflex save for half), and there are other clerics of the Dark One traveling with them. We don't know for sure that any of them is 9th level or higher, but it's a definite possibility.


Interesting hypothesis, but it requires that Xykon survive himself first. Which, if Soon destroys him, he cannot do.Soon can't destroy him, though, which is the point. As long as the hobbos can retrieve his phylactery, he has another shot in 1d10 days, and it's highly unlikely that anyone will be able to organize a counterattack in that time even if they knew that he was vulnerable and Redcloak was (possibly) still dead.

[hamishspence]

Yes, because they already had. The battle was won already at that point, with only a few scattered points of resistance, the majority of ships gone, and the walls entirely breached. The courtyard of the castle was filled with hobbos, shoulder to shoulder, and there's no sign of any Azurites anywhere nearby aside from the remnants of the OotS and Hinjo.

Don't know about none anywhere- there seem to be quite a few clumps of helmeted figures in this picture of the castle exploding.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html

[Optimystik]

As for Soon - he was on his hast legs, too. A few more magic missiles, which the goblins had, and no more Mr Fu Manchu. Goblins standing just outside the door witnessed the fight and were capable of doing both, until Miko killed them.

Where on earth did you get that from?

[Da'Shain]

Hmm, I had assumed those were zombies/wights last time I saw that comic. Still, "quite a few" is a bit of an overstatement, as they're clearly in the midst of being completely overrun.

EDIT: Yeah, forgot about that. The hobbos had no chance whatsoever against Soon, especially not the ones right outside the door; the one in the cloak was a cleric who couldn't overcome the throne room's consecration, and the other two were simple soldiers. I don't think Soon was showing any damage (although ghosts probably don't), but considering we only saw him get hit with one magic missle (maximized though it was) and could generously say he was probably hit with three or four more, that's nowhere near enough to kill an epic level paladin, even assuming his template doesn't add more hit points somehow. No, the only chance the hobbos had was recovering Xykon's phylactery and waiting for him to respawn; that or raising Redcloak if they could and having him come up with some crazy brilliant plan (I seriously doubt Redcloak could actually come anywhere near beating Soon in a fight).

[Forbiddenwar]

An AMF seems like a great idea. Unfortunately, the Sapphire guild (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)doesn't use magic to defend the gates. And there was no nonpaladins in the room.

Soon could and did take down Xykon and redcloak. I don't think it would be a problem for him to kill any random goblin mook that entered the room. I think he was Xykon's equal in level and power, if not superior. So it would be simple of him to wait until a nonevil person entered the room no matter how long it took, even if it meant crushing a helpless reforming Xykon a few times a month. Even if it took centuries for the forces of good to reclaim the castle, I don't think it would have been a problem

[Kish]

An AMF seems like a great idea. Unfortunately, the Sapphire guild (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)doesn't use magic to defend the gates. And there was no nonpaladins in the room.
Really? What about the flying robed woman (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html)?

[Zigg]

As Xykon: Have a squadron of Hobgoblins armed to the teeth with balls with explosive runes or symbols of pain on ready. Fly into throne room and teleport them in. Start casting spells.

As SG: Set a trap. Cover all windows, walls, doors etc. in explosive runes (:vaarsuvius: could help). BOOM!

:-)

[Douglas]

And suppressed/destroyed the gate? Great.
10' radius. The throne room was a hell of a lot bigger than 20' x 20', there's plenty of room to hit Xykon but not the gate with AMF. Even if that were not the case, epic spells like the Gate can ignore AMF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#dispellingEpicSpellsAndAntimagicFi eld).


Besides, big news flash - AMF isn't end-all. Instantaneous spells from outside, such as Symbols or Orb of Xs work just fine, allowing Xykon to kill them even easier.
Orbs yes, Symbols no. The exception for instantaneous spells is specific to conjurations, and I don't think Xykon knows any instantaneous conjurations. He certainly doesn't know any of the Orbs.

[archon_huskie]

An AMF seems like a great idea. Unfortunately, the Sapphire guild (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)doesn't use magic to defend the gates. And there was no nonpaladins in the room.


Multi-class. Human takes seven levels of wizard, and then the wizard is moved by faith to become a paladin. Badda-bing there's magic user in the Sapphire Guard.

Also plenty of those paladin were using magic items in that battle. So it was not so much that they didn't use magic. Rather Magic did not form the basis of their defence.

[Forbiddenwar]

Multi-class. Human takes seven levels of wizard, and then the wizard is moved by faith to become a paladin. Badda-bing there's magic user in the Sapphire Guard.

Also plenty of those paladin were using magic items in that battle. So it was not so much that they didn't use magic. Rather Magic did not form the basis of their defence.

So, a permanent Antimagic field wouldn't be considered a basis of defense?

[Raging Gene Ray]

Silence around the Throne Room. It wouldn't be cast on Xykon himself, so no save, and he won't be able to cast any of his spells with Verbal components.

Of course...that means anything he prepared beforehand (Symbols of Insanity, for example) would still work...and if he has Silent Spell, it's not problem (it will force him to use higher level spell slots, but that's never been a problem for him).

Still, it couldn't hurt too much.

[peacenlove]

So, a permanent Antimagic field wouldn't be considered a basis of defense?

Incorporeal Creatures (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) cannot enter an antimagic field. So the ghosts wouldn't be there for the fight.

[Optimystik]

Silence around the Throne Room. It wouldn't be cast on Xykon himself, so no save, and he won't be able to cast any of his spells with Verbal components.

Of course...that means anything he prepared beforehand (Symbols of Insanity, for example) would still work...and if he has Silent Spell, it's not problem (it will force him to use higher level spell slots, but that's never been a problem for him).

Still, it couldn't hurt too much.

You're thinking of NWN Silence. PnP silence says nothing about not allowing a save if the aura emanates from a willing target. It merely says: "An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any." As Xykon would likely be unwilling to be silenced, he can make a saving throw whether the spell targets him or it is merely an emanation.

[TengYt]

The few casters the SG had with them were pretty obviously multi-classed with Paladin. They were low enough level anyway compared with Xykon, multiclassing wouldn't have helped that. Even if they did use an anti-magic field, what then? Xykon's saves and hitdie are high enough that he can just stroll through the room paralyzing everyone one at a time. Or, y'know, he can ask his army of tens of thousands of undead and hobgoblins to storm the throne room and stab everyone wearing blue.

[Douglas]

Xykon's saves and hitdie are high enough that he can just stroll through the room paralyzing everyone one at a time.
Paralyzing Touch is supernatural, so AMF would negate it too.


Or, y'know, he can ask his army of tens of thousands of undead and hobgoblins to storm the throne room and stab everyone wearing blue.
Well yes, but this is Xykon. Doing it himself is a lot more fun than telling the army to do it. I think a basic assumption of the SG side of this debate is that Xykon does essentially the same as what he did in the comic and comes in himself to solo the whole SG for fun. If he does that and the SG manages to actually catch him with an AMF, it's a bit too late for Xykon to switch tactics and call in the army. If he's able to escape to call in the army, he's able to get out of the AMF and nuke everyone. Once he makes the initial decision to attempt it solo, his army becomes almost irrelevant.

Not that I think the SG actually had the ability to try AMFing Xykon, but I don't think anyone's presented a good argument besides Superb Dispelling for how he could and would deal with it if they did.

[Kish]

Xykon has never, in the comic, demonstrated any ability that would deal with Anti-Magic Field personally (unless Rich rules that it can be dispelled with Superb Dispelling).

I wouldn't bet anything I wasn't willing to lose on him not unveiling Hellball or something similar if and when someone in the comic uses Anti-Magic Field on him, but by the terms Acero stated in the first post to this thread, it has a good chance of defeating him (only failing if Superb Dispelling wipes it out, again).

[Ancalagon]

Acutally, I'd be quite surprised if Xykon did NOT have some sort of epic damage or epic necromancy spell. If anything, he's an utter blaster and destruction-person. He strongly believes in power, as much of it as possible in a very concentrated way.

Ok, he now as epic mage armour... he must have been HORRIBLY scared by nearly getting killed by Soon and that probably made him research that spell as consequence.
But that he has superb dispelling as second epic spell but no damage-spell at all?
That really, really does not sound like Xykon at all. Superb Dispelling is a very useful spell but given how he has shown to think, I'd assume it would be his third and not his second choice of epic spell.

Xykon without epic damage spell or at least SOME epic necromancy sounds very, very unbelievable - maybe(!) even to the point where it breaks character.

[Trixie]

Actually, if Xykon was killed by Soon (such as by Soon actually fighting smart, not that paladins are capable of that) Team Evil would have won that battle - as then, Xykon would have awoken in Reddy's holy symbol, and Redcloak certainly wouldn't go there alone. He would have stood in the doorway, taken Miko out, blast what low-level paladins he could, and then, he would have taken out Soon at his leisure when Xykon would finally reform.

It was only plot need to have them to come to brink of defeat that allowed Xykon to battle supposedly epic paladin for dozens of rounds with spells that failed 50% of the time - until a crucial point (either that, or Xykon is much stronger/Soon much weaker than people give them credit for). Any less than that, Xykon dies, and Redcloak won't enter the room, anything more, Xykon kills Soon, either way he wins.

[Asis]

Question: Is there any spell that you can cast inside the Anti-Magic-Field? It sounds like a silly question, but I'm not really informed regarding rules so...

Anyway, if they actually sealed the throne room with an AMF I suppose he'd have to make run for the door and cast Disjunction 4 or 5 times.

[Kish]

Question: Is there any spell that you can cast inside the Anti-Magic-Field? It sounds like a silly question,
Not at all.

All epic spells have a chance (a very good chance, for Xykon) of going through an Anti-Magic Field. Disjunction (which Xykon is unlikely to have) has a chance (not actually a good chance, though it worked for Vaarsuvius) of destroying it. I don't know if there are other spells you can cast while standing inside an anti-magic field.

[Douglas]

Question: Is there any spell that you can cast inside the Anti-Magic-Field? It sounds like a silly question, but I'm not really informed regarding rules so...
There's Invoke Magic. 9th level spell, does nothing but allow you to cast one 4th level or lower spell once inside an AMF.

[TheBST]

I'd have done the exact same thing as Xykon, except I would have waited for my cleric before barging in.

Xykon was managing to hold his own against most of the ghosts anyway. With a little of Redcloak's strategy, healing and extra attacks, it would've been a cakewalk for Team Evil.

[Da'Shain]

Xykon has never, in the comic, demonstrated any ability that would deal with Anti-Magic Field personally (unless Rich rules that it can be dispelled with Superb Dispelling).

I wouldn't bet anything I wasn't willing to lose on him not unveiling Hellball or something similar if and when someone in the comic uses Anti-Magic Field on him, but by the terms Acero stated in the first post to this thread, it has a good chance of defeating him (only failing if Superb Dispelling wipes it out, again).I'd be very surprised myself if Rich didn't rule that way, but that may just be because I find the idea of a 6th-level spell with a 10 minute per level duration being utterly impervious to anything but the most powerful dispel in the game (and not even likely to be brought down by that until you get to level 50) ridiculous, and am biased.

Regardless, I'd have to agree with yours and Ancalagon's hunch that Xykon's got some sort of Epic damage/necromancy spell, because ... that's just his style. You'd think it'd be one of the first things he researched when he gained Epic Spellcasting (which I think is supposed to be back before lichdom, although I could be wrong on that). That, or right after he researched Superb Dispelling to deal with those pesky wizards.

[hamishspence]

Given that an independantly researched spell with the same features as Superb Dispelling would work on Antimagic Field (dispel seed, various factors)

it makes sense that they simply left out "refer back to the dispel seed" and thus- Superb Dispelling would work.

[Setra]

Xykon was managing to hold his own against most of the ghosts anyway. With a little of Redcloak's strategy, healing and extra attacks, it would've been a cakewalk for Team Evil.
Was managing to hold his own?

He looked severely wounded and to quote "I'm running out of spells above fifth level"

Do you realize how many spells that is for a sorcerer of Xykon's level? If Redcloak hadn't entered Xykon would have died shortly afterwards, but Redcloak healed him and contributed quite a bit to killing the ghosts.

The only way Xykon could have won was if, as you stated, Redcloak was there from the beginning. However there's also a good chance Redcloak would have died if Soon decided to focus on the healer. Sadly he was too emotional, and fell for provocation.

Either way, with Redcloak there from the beginning it's still quite possible they'd have both died anyways.

[Optimystik]

Given that an independantly researched spell with the same features as Superb Dispelling would work on Antimagic Field (dispel seed, various factors)

it makes sense that they simply left out "refer back to the dispel seed" and thus- Superb Dispelling would work.

Not only that, but he could call such an independently researched spell "Superb Dispelling" if he wanted to. It's not like he said "The Superb Dispelling on the SRD!" when he cast it.

Rich has a lot of wiggle-room here, and I doubt that a level 6 spell would be turn out to be Xykon's kryptonite. Surely he's considered how to deal with AMF before, for all his inattention.

[shaddy_24]

Okay, problem with the anti-magic field plan: Roy was the highest leveled person in the city at the time. He was around level 14 or so, right? Anti-magic field is a 6th level spell at the lowest, requiring 11th level wizards or sorcerors, or a higher leveled cleric. How many of those do you think there were in Azure city? Likely not enough to hold for a long enough time against the epic leveled lich to make a difference. Since it only has a 10 foot radius, Xykon has to walk 2 squares, then nuke whoever is capable of casting that spell, and it's over for the SG. I don't think they would have been able to kill him with that.

[Douglas]

How many of those do you think there were in Azure city?
One, named Vaarsuvius. It's possible the guy who teleported the party to Cliffport is high enough level too, but I don't think it's likely, he's not a paladin or associated with the SG at all, and it's not even completely clear that he'd been resurrected before the battle.


Since it only has a 10 foot radius, Xykon has to walk 2 squares, then nuke whoever is capable of casting that spell, and it's over for the SG.
It's a little hard to walk 2 squares when all of those squares are filled with enemies and you aren't highly skilled with tumble. The AMF plan is to get Xykon in an AMF and have the entire rest of the Sapphire Guard completely surround him in the same round before he gets to move.

Regardless, I have never stated that I thought the SG could actually pull off this plan, just that it's the only one with any hope of working without requiring resources far beyond what the SG actually possesses. It still requires resources beyond what they possess, just not by a ridiculously huge margin.

[Gandariel]

i don't think the idea of the Antimagic Field is possible, anyway:
scenario 1) xykon is into the AMF, surrounded by paladins.
xykon casts Superb Dispelling, AMF destroyed
xykon casts Quickened Teleport.
he comes out of the throne room, waits for his army (and redcloak) to come in and then comes back. poof, win.
scenario 2) no AMF
xykon does exactly the same he did in the comic
at the point he is very injured, low on spells, (if Redcloak doesn't come)
simply teleports away...

(if it is proven that Xykon doesn't have Teleport or Greater teleport... ops.. sorry ^^)

[Optimystik]

(if it is proven that Xykon doesn't have Teleport or Greater teleport... ops.. sorry ^^)

He teleports in SoD, and mentions it in the strip, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) so chances are he still has it.

[Mc. Lovin']

Well, that's a compelling reason not to do it when you're fighting an epic-level lich sorcerer with an army of mostly-low-level paladins.

No one in the Sapphire Guard could dispel any spell Xykon cast, he's too much higher level than them, and actually turning Xykon? Not a chance. If I were Xykon, I'd make their inevitable defeat humiliating, just as he did. If I were the Sapphire Guard and I couldn't somehow set up an anti-magic field in the throne room, I'd lunge at him knowing that my death was inevitable but my ghost would be a surprise for him...just as they did.

Wouldnt anti-magic have a bad effect on the gate? And the ghost thing?

[Optimystik]

Wouldnt anti-magic have a bad effect on the gate? And the ghost thing?

I'm not sure what effect Antimagic would have on the Gates.

As for the ghost-martyrs... Interestingly enough, Deathless (in neither BoED or ECS) have no mention of winking out in an antimagic field like Undead do.

[archon_huskie]

Okay, problem with the anti-magic field plan: Roy was the highest leveled person in the city at the time. He was around level 14 or so, right? Anti-magic field is a 6th level spell at the lowest, requiring 11th level wizards or sorcerors, or a higher leveled cleric. How many of those do you think there were in Azure city?

Completely irrelevant because they had the magic fields in the prison. just move the objects creating the fields from he prison to the throne room.

[hamishspence]

It might be a room-based enchantment, rather than an object-based one.

If they've enchanted the room, rather than a single brick in the room, they won't be able to "move the source".

[veti]

Equip all spellcasters with scrolls of Antimagic Field, with the instruction "if it gets dispelled, recast". Position spellcasters not in the middle of the room, but by the doors and windows, with orders to stay within 10' of any enemy spellcaster they see. As soon as Xykon flies in - phut, instant debuff, and the satisfying clackety sound of bones falling abruptly on the stone floor. Should be good for at least two rounds of hacking before he can (a) get to his feet and (b) dispel the field with whatever means he can think of.

The next problem is Xykon's damage resistance. But without magical protection his AC is going to be well under 20, so we should be able to land a few double-handed Power Attacks that will simply batter through 15 DR.

But we're all benefiting from hindsight. Nobody knew Xykon himself, alone, would make a beeline for the throne room. If they were expecting an army of hobgoblins and ghouls through the door, that's an entirely different kind of threat.

[Sky-Moon]

This is quickly turning into the "1v1 with Xykon" thread...where everyone posts wild strategies which go along the lines of "If the SG could look into the future and see that Xykon would enter this specific tower at this specific time and prepared for it specifically, there's about a .0000000395% chance of my strategy working. Assuming of course Miko is out of the picture...as well as the fact that the SG range from level 5 - 13...as well as the fact that there's AN ARMY OF 25,000 GOBLINS AND UNDEAD outside...and they're fighting AN EPIC LEVEL SOCEROR".

Quick points:

1. Casting AMF is plausible maybe once? Maybe even twice during the fight? Considering the level of the SG casters (They're all all probably low maybe 1 mid level caster).

2. Note that Xykon fought the battle sub-optimally. If they started spamming AMFs through scrolls, all Xykon has to do is take one step out of the tower, then keep blast them all with an epic level spell.

3. Or...you know. Leave and start stratching himself until his army takes over the tower...then commence controlling Snarl (or moving on to the next Gate).

Essentially: Yes, they could theoretically beat Xykon if they could:
1. See into the future
2. Have Xykon's loyal, dedicated, devoted army leave for no reason.
3. Get perfect rolls continously
4. Have Xykon kill RedCloak when he comes
5. Then sit on his ass in the AMF for 250 rounds while he dies.

[Ancalagon]

Also note that Xykon probably pack quite a punch with normal melee-weapons. He seems quite strong, so his damage is decent.

As for the crappy sorcerer BAB... we are talking about level 20 BAB vs. some level 3 to 6 paladins (with a few stronger exceptions). Let Xykon wield some weapon that is "appropiate to his level" and his hits + non-magic armour + his DR alone are pretty nasty for a level 5ish SG-guy. He'd be at least able to take out a nasty mage or two without any problem.

[Sky-Moon]

Um...why do you say that Xykon's strong? If anything, I'd say his strength is like 8. Skeleton = No muscles.

But yeah, his BAB is probably a little less than Roy's.

[hamishspence]

Um...why do you say that Xykon's strong? If anything, I'd say his strength is like 8. Skeleton = No muscles.

But yeah, his BAB is probably a little less than Roy's.

This strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html

and this one:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html

both imply he is unusually strong. Also, in D&D, lack of muscles does not in any way hamper skeletal undead.

[Sky-Moon]

Ah, I see.

But it'd say there's a 99.9% chance his strength was magically aided. Who the hell can throw around chunks of concrete?
And his character is less Chuck Norris strength based. So his stats are mainly pumped in his mental scores.

[Beorn080]

Just wanted to point out to all the people complaining that Xykon doesn't have an epic level blaster spell. He does. Maximized Meteor Swarm. At one target, 8d6 blugeoning maximized, with 24d6 fire maximized from the explosion, plus that 24d6 to everything in a 40' radius. That works out to 432 damage to a single target, and 144 to everything around that target. Unfortunately, it doesn't work out so well against incorporeal creatures, due to 50% mischance. Would still clear half of them out though.

Also, Ghost Soon vs Xykon, Soon would win. Epic level positive energy paladin ghost vs Epic level undead lich sorceror? If anything was specifically designed to kill Xykon, that would be it. Not much Xykon can do against a ghost by himself, let alone an epic ghost.

[Kish]

Just wanted to point out to all the people complaining that Xykon doesn't have an epic level blaster spell. He does. Maximized Meteor Swarm.
That's twelfth level, not epic-level. Only an epic-level caster can cast it, but it won't go through an anti-magic field.

[Morthis]

The problem is that Superb Dispelling has its own text which states, in its entirety, "As greater dispel magic, except that the maximum bonus on the dispel check is +40, and the character takes 10d6 points of backlash damage. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/superbDispelling.htm)"

"As Greater Dispel Magic" => "As Dispel Magic" => Superb Dispelling fails to affect AMF, just like Dispel Magic would.

I call it lazy editors who couldn't be bothered to retype (or copy&paste) the differences from the Dispel seed. I would rule that the AMF vs epic spells rule and the details of the Dispel seed take precedence in this case, and I expect the vast majority of DMs would do likewise, but Superb Dispelling's own text does provide RAW basis for it to be ineffective against AMF.

Just quoting this because people are still mentioning Superb dispelling not working. Superb Dispelling is really just an epic spell made for us based on the dispel seed. You could create the same spell yourself if you wanted to, with the dispel seed clearly stating it can dispel things not affected by normal dispel (ie AMF). There is absolutely no reason to believe the "pre-made" Superb Dispelling version would not work on AMF, while if you made your own spell that does the exact same thing as Superb Dispelling it would work just fine.

In the end, short of knowing exactly what Xykon will do, what spells he has, what he is capable of, and with a perfect setup of mid level casters for the SG (and characters throughout oots have consistently shown poor builds and in general not min/max setups), they had absolutely no chance of winning. This is exactly why Xykon, as Roy stated, is a threat to the world.

[golentan]

If I were Xykon, I think I'd probably fly in through the window, shout "Hey boys and girls, you look antsy, so I brought you something to play with" and smash out the wall, allowing the headless zombie dragon to dive bomb and smash the entire front line. Then I'd point out that it wasn't nice to make everyone share, and animate all of the dead ones so that everyone could have a zombie to play with.

If I were the sapphire guard, I'd open up by having trapped every entrance to the room (including floors and ceilings). Second, I'd have Hallowed the throne room (with deeper darkness applying to evil creatures: Choke on that, xykon). Third, I'd have everyone in the city who could read a scroll standing by with counterspells readied for when xykon tries to knock down the hallow. Third, I'd have the ghost-martyrs attack in the very first round, Soon leading the charge.

[Sky-Moon]

If I were Xykon, I think I'd probably fly in through the window, shout "Hey boys and girls, you look antsy, so I brought you something to play with" and smash out the wall, allowing the headless zombie dragon to dive bomb and smash the entire front line. Then I'd point out that it wasn't nice to make everyone share, and animate all of the dead ones so that everyone could have a zombie to play with.


Or you know... cast some random area affect spells like cone of cold and cloudkill from outside the window then leave. Wait for his army to win. Then get RedCloak to turn the ghosts, while he fights Soon.

And keep in mind that it was part of Xykon's strategy who tricked Miko into destroying the sapphire. So don't blame their loss directly on her.

[golentan]

Or you know... cast some random area affect spells like cone of cold and cloudkill from outside the window then leave. Wait for his army to win. Then get RedCloak to turn the ghosts, while he fights Soon.

And keep in mind that it was part of Xykon's strategy who tricked Miko into destroying the sapphire. So don't blame their loss directly on her.

But where's the fun of that?

[Sky-Moon]

Where's the fun in getting Smited (Smoted? Smitten?) by an Epic Level Paladin and his Super Ghost Paladin Army.

Plus I guess it would kinda suck to be Soon when he saw some crazy chick destroy his Gate.

[golentan]

Where's the fun in getting Smited (Smoted? Smitten?) by an Epic Level Paladin and his Super Ghost Paladin Army.

Plus I guess it would kinda suck to be Soon when he saw some crazy chick destroy his Gate.

And how are you supposed to know that ahead of time? You're not thinking like everyone's favorite undead.

[Optimystik]

And keep in mind that it was part of Xykon's strategy who tricked Miko into destroying the sapphire. So don't blame their loss directly on her.

His "strategy" was solely to have her lead them to the gate's location. Destroying the gate had nothing to do with Xykon's plan; indeed, it was completely against his wishes.

Xykon was overconfident during the fight, because he didn't realize (until near the end) that Soon knew where his phylactery was the whole time.

[veti]

Or you know... cast some random area affect spells like cone of cold and cloudkill from outside the window then leave. Wait for his army to win. Then get RedCloak to turn the ghosts, while he fights Soon.

Xykon likes the personal touch, remember? Whatever happens to the Sapphire Guard, he wants to do it himself, up close enough to see the looks in their eyes.

So what he was looking for was either a spell that will affect large groups of people without obscuring them from view (which rules out Cloudkill, Meteor Swarm and other obvious candidates), or a melee-based strategy. "Mass Hold Person" would have been an option, but not as good as the "Symbol of Insanity", which had the bonus effect of taking care even of those who made their saving throws.