Mystic Theurge.

[Tyndmyr]

So, friend in a RL campaign is thinking about picking up a mystic theurge. I tipped him off to early entry via Precocious Apprentice, any other major tips? He'll like be going sorc/cleric.

It's a pretty RAW centric game, with significant optimization, party of wizard, rogue, rogue, druid, cleric, barb. All material save for Dragon magazine is considered fair game, and flaws are being used by most.

[Optimystik]

Direct him to Sublime Chord, Ur-Priest, or Apostle of Peace to get dual-9ths. (I recommend the first.) He can also get the juicy Bard skill point pool at first level.

[Zincorium]

Honestly, mystic theurges are hard, even with precocious apprentice for early entry. They get lots of lower level slots, so they've got endurance going for them, but they don't get the higher level spells and their DCs suffer from MAD and having to use low-level slots.

Alternate options that are pretty good:

Wizard + archivist (heroes of horror). All abilities key off of a single characteristic, very easy concept for everyone to wrap their head around.

Arcane Heirophant (races of the wild) instead of mystic theurge. Say it with me now- Class Features Are Good. Lots of complementary abilities, and if the campaign goes far enough you can roll into mystic theurge without a hitch.

Wizard, Ur-priest, mystic theurge. Five levels of wizard, one level of Ur-priest, up to 9 levels of mystic theurge. Lots of wizard casting, high level cleric spells.

Things to avoid:

True necromancer. Worse than Mystic Theurge in pretty much every way.

Geomancer. Only progresses a single casting class. Outside of Gestalt campaigns, should never exist.

[sonofzeal]

If it's a high-optimization game, be careful with MT, especially with Sorc. If he wants something like it I'd point him in the direction of Cerebremancer (Psion/Wizard or Wilder/Sorc), or Archivist/Wizard MT, or Arcane Hierophant.


Also, I prefer the Illumian early-entry trick to the Precocious Apprentice. I've heard some debate over whether the latter exactly works, but the former certainly does.

[Tyndmyr]

Campaigns currently at level 9, if it matters. I did suggest Sublime Chord, actually. Ur Priest is a good idea...works nicely with that, and means his arcane casting won't be as far behind, but it does make him a bit less powerful in the mid levels. Apostle of Peace I don't generally reccomend on the grounds that it's too limited(only one domain IIRC).

I mean, if you're going mystic theurge, you may as well embrace the spell volume and diversity offered.

MAD is less of a problem than usual, due to a very high point buy. He can pick up 18s in both and still have a few points left over. Basically...no escalating costs in buying points, due to someone misreading the rules initially, and us sticking with it for consistency.

He's avoiding Psion on the basis that it's broken. His words. Admittedly, when he broke it, he used Schism for some truly crazy shenanigans.

[Cyclocone]

For starters, point him towards Cloistered Cleric.

How does he feel about psionics?
'Cause if you really are going by RAW, Ardent 1/Cloistered Cleric 2/Psychic Theurge 10/Legacy Champion X (using Sanctum Spell and Practiced Manifester cheese) is pretty good as theurges go.

[sonofzeal]

Apostle of Peace I don't generally reccomend on the grounds that it's too limited(only one domain IIRC).

You're thinking of the Divine Crusader. The Apostle of Peace has its own problems (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5093.msg219808#msg219808), but is salvageable. Sort of. Not really recommended though.

[Mongoose87]

The word "Don't" comes to mind.

[Tyndmyr]

You're thinking of the Divine Crusader. The Apostle of Peace has its own problems (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5093.msg219808#msg219808), but is salvageable. Sort of. Not really recommended though.

Ah, exalted. Yeah, our party falls more into neutral-evil range. PvP happens as appropriate, and has resulted in previous characters being stabbed to death or sold into slavery. I suspect any LG or exalted character would have a lifespan approaching three rounds, tops.:smallamused:

'course, if he goes wizard, he has a free source of a *lot* of spells. Everything up to 4th level, from all sourcebooks, and a pretty good selection after that. In terms of practical power, that might be worth somethin.

[Telonius]

He's already leaning Sorcerer ... Venerable Kobold Loredrake with Greater Draconic Rite of Passage; Sorc/Druid/Mystic Theurge/Arcane Hierophant. I think that's about the maximum amount of power you can get out of a non-gestalted Theurge.

[Tyndmyr]

Hmm, that's a good thought. I mean, we've dealt with the local kobold community already(albeit mostly violently), so that would actually fit nicely. It'd keep the sorc level from really being behind...

I wonder if it'd be better with sorc/ur-priest. Since we're starting at level 9 anyhow, that'd give him sorc 6, urpriest 2, MT 1, I believe. Plus a bonus to effective sorc level, so he'll be casting at essentially normal sorc power, plus level 3 divine spells right off, climbing quickly.

[Saph]

Well, I built a Mystic Theurge for the Test of Spite PvP matches which was pretty deadly. That didn't use Sorcerer, though, and it was designed specifically to kill casters, so I'm not sure if it would be appropriate for normal games. On the other hand, if your party goes in for PvP, it might turn out quite handy. :P

[PhoenixRivers]

Consider this:

Monk 1 / Sorceror 4 / Urpriest 1 / Mystic Theurge 8 / Ur Priest +1 / Sorceror +5
or
Monk 1 / Sorceror 4 / Urpriest 1 / Mystic Theurge 9 / Sorceror +5

Take Ascetic Mage to apply Charisma to AC instead of wisdom.

For the first, you get 9th divine at level 14, up to 8th level arcane, and Rebuking (to power DMM).

For the second, you get 9th divine at level 14, and up to 9th level arcane.

If You're going high optimization/anything goes?

Sorceror 4 / Ardent 1 / Subverted Psion 1 / Tainted Scholar 1 / Ur Priest 1 / Mystic Theurge 9 / Sorceror +3

Here, we get Ardent 2 (ML 6), Sorceror 17 (CL 20), Ur Priest 10 (CL 18 or 27, depending on interpretation)

This opens up taintcasting on the Arcane side, allowing you to remove Cha from the build entirely, after level 7. Taint is controlled by Subverted Psion, and the taint score (which, with a good wisdom and con, can get into the hundreds) replaces your charisma for bonus spells and save DC.

Hello to charm person with a DC of 50-60, along with more than doubling your spells per day with bonus spells.

[Tyndmyr]

Well, I built a Mystic Theurge for the Test of Spite PvP matches which was pretty deadly. That didn't use Sorcerer, though, and it was designed specifically to kill casters, so I'm not sure if it would be appropriate for normal games. On the other hand, if your party goes in for PvP, it might turn out quite handy. :P

Now, now, Im the party wizard. Let's not get TOO carried away on giving him anti-caster stuff. :smallbiggrin:

Phoenix, why monk? Isn't it a waste of a possible caster level? I mean sure, it gets some fun abilities and a few hit points, but spells...well..they're spells. Also, I believe you normally need two levels of Ur Priest to qualify for MT.

[sonofzeal]

Ah, exalted. Yeah, our party falls more into neutral-evil range. PvP happens as appropriate, and has resulted in previous characters being stabbed to death or sold into slavery. I suspect any LG or exalted character would have a lifespan approaching three rounds, tops.:smallamused:
A properly-executed (heh) Apostle of Peace is insanely difficult to kill. An AoE at-will "Calm Emotions" with an enormous DC means that VoPeace characters have a powerful encounter ender. They can also get really impressive AC, and weapons used against them have a nasty tendency to asplode (again, due to the +4 DC thing they get). Mix in some Monk and/or Saint, and you've got someone who... well, they won't be a big threat, and they're not invulnerable, but good lord will they be hard to kill compared to 95% of the other characters in the world. Fighters weep at the AC and weapon-shatter, and even Wizards struggle with the crazy saves and high Touch AC. Schrodinger's Wizard is probably your ideal for survivability, but at least he (usually) has times when his defenses are down.

I bet he'd last at least five rounds before they found a way to actually kill him. Probably involving True Strike + ranged touch attack debuffs.

[Tyndmyr]

Feh, I'm an incantatrix with 28 int, and some hardcore save stacking. Fell drained orbs fix everything.That said, I usually dont start fights. It's usually one of the blinking/invisible rogue/assassins. We have some truly epic barfights.

Of course...wings of cover might be a bit annoying, if he sticks with sorc/AoP. Could prolong the fight significantly.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Dragonwrought White Dragonspawn Kobold with the Greater Draconic Rite gets you 3 bonus Sorc levels. Druid 4/Sorc 2/AH 10/MT 4 has caster levels of 18/19 after you buy off the LA. Not too bad at all, and you can probably push it even further.

[Telonius]

A properly-executed (heh) Apostle of Peace is insanely difficult to kill. An AoE at-will "Calm Emotions" with an enormous DC means that VoPeace characters have a powerful encounter ender. They can also get really impressive AC, and weapons used against them have a nasty tendency to asplode (again, due to the +4 DC thing they get). Mix in some Monk and/or Saint, and you've got someone who... well, they won't be a big threat, and they're not invulnerable, but good lord will they be hard to kill compared to 95% of the other characters in the world. Fighters weep at the AC and weapon-shatter, and even Wizards struggle with the crazy saves and high Touch AC. Schrodinger's Wizard is probably your ideal for survivability, but at least he (usually) has times when his defenses are down.

I bet he'd last at least five rounds before they found a way to actually kill him. Probably involving True Strike + ranged touch attack debuffs.

Levels of Knight are even more awful.

1. "Hey, you with the sword, come over here and attack me. No, really, ignore the guy with the pointy hat."
2a. "Oh good, you're calm now."
2b. "Not calm? Okay, hit me."
3a. "Ah, missed. How unfortunate that you wasted your turn."
3b. "Hm, looks like you might have hit me."
4a. "How unfortunate, it looks like your weapon broke."
4b. "Ouch. Of course since I have a d12 hit die..."

[Xenogears]

Consider this:

Monk 1 / Sorceror 4 / Urpriest 1 / Mystic Theurge 8 / Ur Priest +1 / Sorceror +5
or
Monk 1 / Sorceror 4 / Urpriest 1 / Mystic Theurge 9 / Sorceror +5

Take Ascetic Mage to apply Charisma to AC instead of wisdom.

Wouldn't it be easier to just replace monk with Battle Dancer from Dragon Compendium? It already has Cha to AC.

[sonofzeal]

Feh, I'm an incantatrix with 28 int, and some hardcore save stacking. Fell drained orbs fix everything.That said, I usually dont start fights. It's usually one of the blinking/invisible rogue/assassins. We have some truly epic barfights.

Of course...wings of cover might be a bit annoying, if he sticks with sorc/AoP. Could prolong the fight significantly.
Hmm...

Calm Emotions Aura is an issue for the sneakers. Since it can be always on, blinking/invisible doesn't help. If the rogue/assassins can't make high-20's Will saves reliably, he's likely to be out of the fight before anyone else (including the AoP) realizes there even is a fight.

Your Incantatrix is probably a better bet, assuming you can make the attack rolls, which won't be easy. Depending on the build, you're looking at a touch AC that could be better than the normal AC of most things you're fighting. True Strike is your friend.

I played a VoPeace character for almost a year I think, and I believe she only ever took 1d6 damage in the entire campaign. She once got shot by an assault cannon (steampunk), at point blank range, and gave the shooter a very stern talking-to about firearm safety. Only thing that I can remember actually hurting her was a vermin swarm. Good times.

[Tyndmyr]

How big's the aura? IE, is it a problem for crossbow/reach weapons? If so, that is a pretty awesome ability.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

She's going to have many spells a day, it's going to be unlikely running out of slots, so I'd advise her to pick up wizard levels instead of sorcerer levels, because she's going to get more powerful spells sooner. Also, tell her to grab the Practiced Spellcaster feat. :smallwink:

[Xenogears]

How big's the aura? IE, is it a problem for crossbow/reach weapons? If so, that is a pretty awesome ability.

IIRC only a 30ft aura or so. Maybe even 10ft. Useless against ranged.

[Optimystik]

It is 20 feet. Good luck hitting him though, as the AC bonuses from the Vows stack.

His spells are also a problem - he may not have as large a list as Ur-Priest, but still gets the planar ally line, Miracle, Gate etc.

[Xenogears]

It is 20 feet. Good luck hitting him though, as the AC bonuses from the Vows stack.

His spells are also a problem - he may not have as large a list as Ur-Priest, but still gets the planar ally line, Miracle, Gate etc.

Especially since Apostle of Peace allows you to use defensive items even with VoP. So high amount bracers of armor.

[sonofzeal]

IIRC only a 30ft aura or so. Maybe even 10ft. Useless against ranged.
Yeah, doesn't stop ranged attack. Does, however, cause significant issue for melee, and you'd have to make sure he can't close. If he can take a Run action or Dim Door to get inside your range, that works too. Crossbows are not recommended, because they have to deal with huge AC and the Shatter effect.

On the other hand, just about the best he can hope to do is make it prohibitively difficult to kill him. Without shenanigans he can't actually end the fight, just take people out of it temporarily.

On the gripping hand, he can do the same to the enemy. He can take almost anything they can throw at him, and royally screw over their offence at the same time. And that's before he starts using spells! I do recommend a very careful and rules-lawyery readthrough of the Vows, as Nonviolence and Peace are triggered under very specific conditions that may not be nearly as restrictive as you think they are...... :smallwink:

[Tyndmyr]

Hmm, mostly untyped bonuses, too, so flat footed isn't going to matter significantly.

Eh, well, we've got what, four casters with access to true strike? It might slow them down though, that's true.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Especially since Apostle of Peace allows you to use defensive items even with VoP. So high amount bracers of armor.

That's not necessarily the correct reading, just FYI.

[Radar]

About "Sorcerer or Wizard" dillema. I'd like to point out, that Sorcerers get Arcane Fusion and Arcane Spellsurge, which is way better then the Quicken Spell Metamagic and with dual casting, he will have lots of spell slots to burn through.

Just don't show him possible applications of Sanctum Spell and Arcane Fusion. :smallbiggrin:

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Sanctum Spell was errata'd to not work that way.

[sonofzeal]

Especially since Apostle of Peace allows you to use defensive items even with VoP. So high amount bracers of armor.
Er, that's not actually how it works. The text is obviously in error (I'm inclined to think that Poverty was the error in the first place), but even if it's not, here's what it would mean....

- You have Vow of Poverty (requirement for class)

- Class has additional armor restrictions, similar to Druids or Healers. Note that the use of armor has a different penalty clause than Vow of Poverty, thus re-affirming that it's a separate restriction.

- Defensive magic items don't violate class armor restrictions.

....ergo, you can wear magic items, but they still violate Vow of Poverty. Of course, there's no "Ex Apostle of Peace" clause, so you're in an odd position anyway.

Also, the picture clearly shows floating scrolls, a magical floating golden thingy, and what might be a Candle of Invocation. None of those are the type of defensive magic items referenced by the class.

Conclusion: houserule it. I recommend removing VoP. I could see clarifying it so defensive magic items are allowed by the VoP, but that'd be pretty overpowered really, at least from a defensive standpoint.

[Tyndmyr]

Especially since Apostle of Peace allows you to use defensive items even with VoP. So high amount bracers of armor.

It was my understanding that while wearing them does not negate Apostle of Peace benefits, it still negates VoP benefits.

[Optimystik]

It was my understanding that while wearing them does not negate Apostle of Peace benefits, it still negates VoP benefits.

Right, allowing the Apostle to choose when items might be more handy than his exalted bonuses.

However, I don't think forcing the dichotomy is overpowering - he is still far, far behind Ur-Priest in that regard, who can summon pit fiends and steal their wishes.

[Zaydos]

I figured the monk level was for the +2 Fort since you need a Base Fort of +3 for Ur-Priest and wizard/sorcerer don't qualify till they already have 9 levels that way. Of course if you're going to be evil anyway why not Sor 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 1? Mindbender gives you a good fort save for that level bumping it up high enough for Ur-Priest. Not sure how the Draconic Rite of Passage works, though (don't have Dragons of Eberron). This also has the secondary benefit that you get Telepathy (Mindsight?).

[sonofzeal]

Right, allowing the Apostle to choose when items might be more handy than his exalted bonuses.
Except the VoP text states that if you break it, you can never ever ever (no, not even then) get it back. Meaning you no longer meet the AoP requirements, so you lose that too.


Honestly, the whole AoP/VoP situation is impossible to really sum up without profanity. Or houserules. I recommend the former, followed shortly by the latter.

[Person_Man]

If your friend's goal is to be versatile, he might want to consider Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1). They get access to pretty much every spell list (though not necessarily all on the same day until level 7) plus UMD. Although they're not particularly powerful compared to other full casters, it can pretty much fulfill any role, which is usually the goal of a player who wants to be a Mystic Theurge.

They also get access Paladin, Ranger, Blackguard, and other spells earlier then normal. This opens up nifty options like Arrow Storm at ECL 8 (instead of ECL 11) and Holy Sword (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holySword.htm) at ECL 10 (instead of ECL 14). The floating Feat is also very handy.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Factotum8/Chameleon10/Something2 is a great Jack of All Trades build.

[Optimystik]

Except the VoP text states that if you break it, you can never ever ever (no, not even then) get it back. Meaning you no longer meet the AoP requirements, so you lose that too.

Vow of Poverty is explicitly a Sacred Vow. the AoP exception states:

"As part of their sacred vows, apostles of peace forswear the use of armor, though they may wear magic items that protect them (such as a ring of protection or bracers of armor). An apostle of peace who wears any armor is unable to cast apostle of peace spells or use any of his supernatural class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter."

I thus read the line as a specific exception to any prohibitions brought on by a Sacred Vow. Note also that wearing armor of any kind would make them lose VoP as well, but the exception merely suppresses their powers for 24 hours. The defined duration clearly implies that you do not lose your class features - no, not even then.

[Person_Man]

Factotum8/Chameleon10/Something2 is a great Jack of All Trades build.

Agreed. Although their spells don't get above 6th level, the action advantage from Cunning Surge should keep you competitive at every level. (It's a shame you can't use Chameleon class features to qualify for other PrC. A Chameleon/Swiftblade would be awesome). I'm also fond of mixing in Marshal, Totemist, Incarnate, ToB classes, and/or 1 level of Master of Masks. Put them together with your floating feat and the Heroics spell, and you can essentially play a completely different build every game day.

[sonofzeal]

Vow of Poverty is explicitly a Sacred Vow. the AoP exception states:

"As part of their sacred vows, apostles of peace forswear the use of armor, though they may wear magic items that protect them (such as a ring of protection or bracers of armor). An apostle of peace who wears any armor is unable to cast apostle of peace spells or use any of his supernatural class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter."

I thus read the line as a specific exception to any prohibitions brought on by a Sacred Vow. Note also that wearing armor of any kind would make them lose VoP as well, but the exception merely suppresses their powers for 24 hours. The defined duration clearly implies that you do not lose your class features - no, not even then.
I'm aware of that reading. I, personally, believe it's overly optimistic.

First, consider how we would read that paragraph if VoP was not in the requirements. The "sacred vows" bit you emphasis would still make perfect sense, and be easily interpreted by anyone reading the class.

Second, there's all sorts of classes with special armor prohibitions, and many use similar phrasing: "The armor of a healer is restricted by traditional oaths, not simply training." The specific words used in the AoP paragraph are ambiguous, but could easily have been intended either way.

Third, the preceding words "as part of" are also ambiguous. They could mean that the forswearing is something that already came with the oaths, or that the forswearing is something that Apostles of Peace also do when they're making their oaths.

Fourth, the wording of the "oh hey you can use magic items" appears to be a clarification rather than an exception, akin to the line in the Druid restrictions about Ironwood.

Fifth, the penalties exactly match what the Druid and Healer face from their own special armor oaths, but are completely disconnected from the VoP penalties.

Sixth, nothing is mentioned at any point about the loss of VoP benefit from violating the armor restriction. If it were truly an exception to the VoP rules, you'd think they'd mention that you lose VoP benefits while in armor and get them back 24 hours later. They don't, all they talk about is AoP benefits. This again implies that it's an AoP condition that they're working with, not a VoP one.

Seventh, it seems probable to me that VoP was added to the requirements later in the game, which would explain both the text and the picture. WotC has a solidly established history of making adjustments immediately prior to release and failing to catch "small" things like that.

[Optimystik]

I'm aware of that reading. I, personally, believe it's overly optimistic.

I see what you did there. :smalltongue:


First, consider how we would read that paragraph if VoP was not in the requirements. The "sacred vows" bit you emphasis would still make perfect sense, and be easily interpreted by anyone reading the class.

Why do we have to consider that at all? VoP is in the requirements - considering the requirements without it is meaningless, as doing so is not RAW.


Second, there's all sorts of classes with special armor prohibitions, and many use similar phrasing: "The armor of a healer is restricted by traditional oaths, not simply training." The specific words used in the AoP paragraph are ambiguous, but could easily have been intended either way.

Third, the preceding words "as part of" are also ambiguous. They could mean that the forswearing is something that already came with the oaths, or that the forswearing is something that Apostles of Peace also do when they're making their oaths.

It only works one way - making the armor a choice. Losing the Vow, and thus the class, permanently is a direct contradiction of the quoted section. Specific trumps general.

As the only vows an Apostle of Peace makes are the ones that grant entry to the class, what else could the exception be referring to?


Fourth, the wording of the "oh hey you can use magic items" appears to be a clarification rather than an exception, akin to the line in the Druid restrictions about Ironwood.

Fifth, the penalties exactly match what the Druid and Healer face from their own special armor oaths, but are completely disconnected from the VoP penalties.

It is absolutely an exception, for the reasons outlined above. A mere clarification would not allow the class to work as written.


Sixth, nothing is mentioned at any point about the loss of VoP benefit from violating the armor restriction. If it were truly an exception to the VoP rules, you'd think they'd mention that you lose VoP benefits while in armor and get them back 24 hours later. They don't, all they talk about is AoP benefits. This again implies that it's an AoP condition that they're working with, not a VoP one.

But without that line, wearing armor of any kind for any reason breaks VoP, which expels you from the class permanently. No 24 hours, no cooldown, no nothing. If that is what they had intended, why bother creating the 24-hour clause?


Seventh, it seems probable to me that VoP was added to the requirements later in the game, which would explain both the text and the picture. WotC has a solidly established history of making adjustments immediately prior to release and failing to catch "small" things like that.

That is a reasonable interpretation, but still merely an interpretation. RAW is that the class requires sacred vows, and has an ability that keeps magic items from breaking them.

[Tyndmyr]

It's a questionable, poorly written area...but unlikely to matter in this particular instance, as he'll probably shy away from any class that'll result in alignment conflict with essentially everyone.

We are, after all, the steriotypical band of greedy, violent hobos.

[Optimystik]

It's a questionable, poorly written area...but unlikely to matter in this particular instance, as he'll probably shy away from any class that'll result in alignment conflict with essentially everyone.

We are, after all, the steriotypical band of greedy, violent hobos.

Oh, uh... Ahem... yes, well... we do tend to miss the forest for all those lush trees after all.

Ooh, a butterfly! *gives chase*

[sonofzeal]

Why do we have to consider that at all? VoP is in the requirements - considering the requirements without it is meaningless, as doing so is not RAW.
The point was that the words still make sense even if that's not what they're referring to. When determining RAW, we have to be aware what each phrase means. The question is whether the phrase "their sacred vows" is an explicit reference to VoP. My point was that it isn't; they don't actually refer directly to Vow of Poverty at any point, and the phrase makes just as much if not more sense if referring to vows taken when joining the order of AoP (in which case it would be a class-specific thing), or to the vows in general (of which he has at least three).




It only works one way - making the armor a choice. Losing the Vow, and thus the class, permanently is a direct contradiction of the quoted section. Specific trumps general.

As the only vows an Apostle of Peace makes are the ones that grant entry to the class, what else could the exception be referring to?
They could be referring to the same thing the Healer's "traditional oaths" are referring to, or the Paladin's "code of conduct", a special commitment members of the class make.

Also, it's not a direct contradiction. Logic allows for two overlapping but separate conditions that can apply. For example, someone can be both prone and helpless, with different penalties and end conditions, and both can be caused at the same time by the same thing (say, falling asleep) without contradiction.




It is absolutely an exception, for the reasons outlined above. A mere clarification would not allow the class to work as written.
It "works", it's just redundant and one of the conditions never comes up. There's nothing self-contradictory in that, although it does make for poor game design.




But without that line, wearing armor of any kind for any reason breaks VoP, which expels you from the class permanently. No 24 hours, no cooldown, no nothing. If that is what they had intended, why bother creating the 24-hour clause?
You're right, it shouldn't be there. But it is, and doesn't explicitly reference Vow of Poverty.

Actually, that's pretty key right there: it never explicitly references Vow of Poverty. As much as you may be certain that it indirectly refers to it ("sacred vows" and all that), in a pure RAW argument that's pretty big.



That is a reasonable interpretation, but still merely an interpretation. RAW is that the class requires sacred vows, and has an ability that keeps magic items from breaking them.
RAW, as previously stated, doesn't explicitly reference VoP. What we're arguing about, then, is which way fits better with RAI. And by RAI, I don't see how you can possibly justify a blinged-out VoP character in utter violation of all the established fluff, based on two sentences that don't even mention it.




(edit)

It's a questionable, poorly written area...but unlikely to matter in this particular instance, as he'll probably shy away from any class that'll result in alignment conflict with essentially everyone.

We are, after all, the steriotypical band of greedy, violent hobos.
....point. Maybe this isn't worth arguing about. =P

[Xenogears]

RAW, as previously stated, doesn't explicitly reference VoP. What we're arguing about, then, is which way fits better with RAI. And by RAI, I don't see how you can possibly justify a blinged-out VoP character in utter violation of all the established fluff, based on two sentences that don't even mention it.

VoP only has you give 50% of your money to a charity. The rest you can do anything with but you are not allowed to own more than a few items it lists. Allowing Apostle of Peace to use defensive items simply gives you a way to spend that extra money on stuff other than Hansel and Gretal breadcrumb trails of Platinum Pieces.

[Optimystik]

They do not explicitly refer to VoP, because the class requires three Sacred Vows, not one. Thus, it is a blanket allowance covering all three (hence Sacred Vows being pluralized.)

Which two "overlapping but separate conditions" are you referring to? Because without that restriction, you CANNOT - repeat, CANNOT - wear armor OR magic items, and still have Vow of Poverty. Period. There is no overlap. But the clause (a) specifically permits magic items and armor, (b) specifically states what happens if you choose to make use of them, and (c) makes no mention of your Vow being broken as a result. In fact, it can't, because if your Vow is broken you don't get ANY class features or spells back, 24 hours later or otherwise!

To quote Rules Compendium: "General to specific to exception."

[Xenogears]

As much as I have enjoyed this debate none of this should probably derail the thread more. Either someone should make a New Thread or just agree that it is badly worded and could be either one.

[Tyndmyr]

Could go either way. IMO, I think RAW is too ambiguous to provide an exception to VoP. That said, I think RAW in that area is stupid, and should probably be houseruled.

On a side note, any particular reccomendations for domain? Neither of us are typical cleric users, but SpC has quite a list of them.

Oddly enough, since Ive got the weather domain via domain wizard, Im pulling out druid spells myself.

Technically, I suppose if he goes wizard/clericish thingie, he could grab a domain from each if he goes domain wizard. It's not as if he needs the specialist spell slots.

[sonofzeal]

They do not explicitly refer to VoP, because the class requires three Sacred Vows, not one. Thus, it is a blanket allowance covering all three (hence Sacred Vows being pluralized.)

Which two "overlapping but separate conditions" are you referring to? Because without that restriction, you CANNOT - repeat, CANNOT - wear armor OR magic items, and still have Vow of Poverty. Period. There is no overlap. But the clause (a) specifically permits magic items and armor, (b) specifically states what happens if you choose to make use of them, and (c) makes no mention of your Vow being broken as a result. In fact, it can't, because if your Vow is broken you don't get ANY class features or spells back, 24 hours later or otherwise!

To quote Rules Compendium: "General to specific to exception."
Overlapping but separate conditions....


Okay, so VoP says you can't wear armor. What about a VoP Druid then, what happens if he puts on, say, steel plate? The one event triggers two things - the loss of his Druid powers, and the loss of his VoP powers. Both sets of conditions apply.


Or, let's say a Grey Guard (CS). They require Lay on Hands (among other things) to enter, meaning they're restricted to Paladins. If you lose Paladin class features, then, you lose access to the PrC. This renders much of its text contradictory or redundant. As soon as you lose Paladin status, you lose "all paladin spells and abilities", including Lay on Hands. This means you're no longer a Grey Guard, which means you lose Sacrament of Trust, meaning the ability is, technically, utterly worthless since you lose it every time it would kick in. The whole "Ex-Gray Guards" section is also completely redundant, since (as far as I can tell) anything that would cause it to kick in also causes you to cease to qualify for the PrC anyway.

The only big difference with Grey Guard is that RAI is clearly obvious and spelled out, and the whole thing is explained six ways from sunday even if the class doesn't actually function they way they thought. I wouldn't force a strict RAW reading on it, and I wouldn't want my DM to do that to me. Far better to go with the clear RAI than the awkward RAW.

With AoP, RAI isn't clear. It could be an exception to the VoP restrictions (in which case I'd expect it to be justified from fluff, explained in a bit more depth, and be listed as a class feature rather than tossed in with proficiencies), or it could be a separate oath like Druids and Healers have, that technically never kicks in the way the Gray Guard's Sacrament of Trust never kicks in.

I go with the latter because it fits the fluff better, it makes sense as an error WotC would make, and it better fits how they lay these things out.

[Person_Man]

On a side note, any particular reccomendations for domain? Neither of us are typical cleric users, but SpC has quite a list of them.

My favorites (this list is not complete - I suggest reading crystalkeep):

Celerity: +10 land movement in light armor - Blur, Haste, Blink, Time Stop.
Domination: Spell Focus Enchantment - Suggestion, Dominate Person.
Dream: Immunity to Fear - Sleep, Deep Slumber.
Fate: Uncanny Dodge - True Strike, Mind Blank.
Renewal: Gain 1d8+Cha hit points if you drop below 0 - Charm Person, Polymorph Any Object.
Slime: Grease, Poison (as 3rd level spell), Black Tentacles.
Summoner: +2 Caster Level to Summon spells.
Time: Improved Initiative - True Strike, Haste, Moment of Prescience, Permanency, Time Stop.
Travel: Free Movement - Longstrider, D Door, Fly.
Transformation: +1 Caster Level to Trasmutation Spells - Enlarge Person, Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object.
Trickery: More Class Skills - Invisibility, Mislead, Polymorph Any Object, Time Stop.

[Tyndmyr]

Wow, Time and Trickery in particular sound amazing. Ditto Celerity. Huh, guess I just like Time Stop. Seriously, though, I'll pass on the advice.

[Vizzerdrix]

I ran this build with some success.

Bamboo Spirit folk
Sorc-1/ Cloistered Cleric-2/ Mystic theurge-7/ Arcane Hierophant-10

(My DM gave the okay for Bamboo Spirit folk to count for trackless step, Druid -3 could replace that though. Alternatively, Favored Soul + the Education feat for 2 levels will also work and helps with MAD casting.)

Used Heighten Spell and versatile spellcaster to get into MT. Went through MT long enough to get into AH, then finished off with more MT. Heighten is a prereq for persistent, and sorc levels means ample turning (both need Cha)

[PhoenixRivers]

Now, now, Im the party wizard. Let's not get TOO carried away on giving him anti-caster stuff. :smallbiggrin:

Phoenix, why monk? Isn't it a waste of a possible caster level? I mean sure, it gets some fun abilities and a few hit points, but spells...well..they're spells. Also, I believe you normally need two levels of Ur Priest to qualify for MT.

Monk gets you some extra ability synergy and move, as well as fulfilling the Base Saves needed for ur-priest. You need something with strong Fort for it.

Granted That can be:

Fighter 1 (Armored Mage ACF) / Sorceror 4 / Ur Priest 2 / MT 8 / Sorceror +3

or

Sorceror 6 / Ur Priest 2 / MT 8 / Sorceror +4

(You'll need methods to make a couple Knowledge skills into class skills for both)

Rogue 1 / Wizard 6 / Ur Priest 2 / MT 8 /Wizard +3
is the prepared caster option, with trapfinding. You could also use Sorceror 1 instead of Rogue, or any other method to make Bluff a class skill.