[3.5] For new players, what is confusing?

[pres_man]

So let's say you or someone you know is going to start playing 3.5 or maybe just switching to a new group where interpretations are slightly different. What issues would you as an experienced player point out to them?

I'll start with a few.

Do barbarians end their rage when they fall unconscious?

Can monks combine TWF and flurry of blows?
If so, would an unarmed strike for their TWF be considered an off-hand attack (1/2 STR)?

Can you use Combat Expertise even if you don't attack (but don't do any other standard action either)?

What happens with reach weapons when they are wielded by inappropriately sized creatures?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Is ToB/Psionics/Monk OP?

Isn't powergaming bad?

How come people ban Evocation?

[Optimystik]

Incarnum still confuses me. :smallfrown:

I think I'll read it again for good measure.

[Glyde]

I have a friend who still has a bit of trouble with movement rules (Charging, running, tumbling, moving while doing a movement skill like balance, things like that.)

Grappling is usually gotten pretty quickly in our groups.

Skill points having a cap was something that came up once (First level rogue dumped all his points in open lock. That one was weeded out fast.)

The time between rests for wizards was also an issue a couple of times.

Anywho, to answer one of yours:


"Flurry + TWF" Yep, they stack. So do the penalties, however. You get one additional attack at your full BAB, but all attacks in the chain get -2. So if your flurry was initially +6/+6/+1, now it's +4/+4/+4/-1

As for the off-hand thing, I don't play with the 1/2 STR mod on off-hand rule so I can't give a solid answer for that.

[Tyndmyr]

Underwater combat.

Mounted combat.

Grappling gets picked up eventually, but trip/disarm are lesser known.

[Ernir]

The action economy confuses the hell out of most new players, in my experience.

"No, you can't move and full attack."
"No, a charge is a full round action."
"Summoning a creature takes one round."
"You can not take immediate actions while flat-footed."

And so on...

[RagnaroksChosen]

Grappaling and char creation i see newbs struggle with the most.


Grappling still confuses me sometimes.
Specially the interaction of natural attacks and grappaling and having a high bab.

[Samb]

The action economy confuses the hell out of most new players, in my experience.

"No, you can't move and full attack."
"No, a charge is a full round action."
"Summoning a creature takes one round."
"You can not take immediate actions while flat-footed."

And so on...

Just to continue your chain of thought:
-Can I break up a run while using spring attack?
-If I have charger's boots do I still get a move action after my charge?
-Can I summon a critter by moving this turn, use a standard action. Then use the next round's other standard action (ie using 2 standard actions to make a full round action)?

Still don't know which is which.

[Choco]

Being flat-footed means you are denied your dex to AC and can't make AoO's, so are you still considered flat-footed if you have Uncanny Dodge and Combat Reflexes?

If someone uses an ability that makes you count as flat-footed (Sapphire Nightmare Blade), is that just in the context of the attack or can you not take immediate actions until the attack is resolved? Also, are you affected by these abilities if you have an ability that makes you never count as flat-footed (Cunning, from Weapons of Legacy)?

[Signmaker]

I'll be honest, when I first started it was Caster Levels vs levels in a casting class.

Also of note is trained skill checks vs untrained, cross-class skills, and flat-footed vs. denied dex.

[sonofzeal]

I use "cover vs concealment" as my quick test of whether or not someone's a pro. =P

[The Dark Fiddler]

My group seemed to struggle with the whole 'Flat-footed until acting' concept. We still forget it half the time.

Also, one player took a month to learn that it's Con to HP, not Dex. :smallconfused:

[Aphaedon]

i still have trouble with criticals and remembering whether I multiple my Favored Enemy damage as well or not for some reason. lol. I'm sure I've been told before but I can't make it stick in my head.

PS: I've only actually be playing for around 18 months total, but been interested int he game for some 8 or 9 years now.

[Dr Bwaa]

Underwater combat.

Mounted combat.

Grappling gets picked up eventually, but trip/disarm are lesser known.

You skipped aerial combat (but frankly, I think these are normally worse for the DM than for the players--also, just try using Control Water in a combat situation. On fishing boats. Oh, boy).

Grappling + Spellcasting (I still think this is bogus. I have a halfling chaos mage/barbarian in 3.5 who is often picked up by the scruff of his neck by the party cleric, and is thus "grappled" and as a result incapable of casting spells :smallsigh: He's holding me by one leg! What do you mean I can't use my hands!)

"Dude, monks are sooooooooooooo strong! Look how many cool abilities they get!" *hides from monk thread; please, Playground, not again!*

"Why did you kill my character?!?!111"
"It may have had to do with the fact that your 15th-level wizard went and--of his own accord, mind you--got surrounded by four melee-types. For Three rounds. Without casting defensively, despite my suggesting it. That might have had something to do with it."
:smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

You skipped aerial combat (but frankly, I think these are normally worse for the DM than for the players--also, just try using Control Water in a combat situation. On fishing boats. Oh, boy).

Aerial combat is THE worst of them all. Why? Because there are no rules! Seriously, 90% of the time, you just have to make **** up when people do anything BUT move, attack or cast spells in air.

Short list of problems:
- What happens when you trip someone flying? Exactly one web article has addressed this and offered a house rule solution that differentiates between flight with wings and magical flight.
- What happens when a flying creature hits an obstacle before they can't turn? We know they stall, but there are insufficient rules for FALLING (like, do you only fall on your turn, on your opponent's turn, between rounds or what? And how far each turn? And what can you do while falling?).
- How are you supposed to check creature facing in a game that doesn't model facing? This is sorta important for where and how much a creature can turn and so on.
- If your movement speed changes midturn, how much do you need to move to avoid stalling out?
- How is "higher ground" adjudicated midair? Do you have to just have a part of you higher than the opponent? Do you have to entirely be above the opponent? Doesn't everyone always have higher ground while attacking in air, pretty much, due to turn structure?
- How much does diagonal diagonal movement cost (well, this one is clear; it's 10' per square - still, it's never stated anywhere)?

And so on. Movement in general lacks a ton of rules (the already-brought-up Mounted & Underwater Rules are other good examples). And that should be basic fundamental crap in the game. Sigh...

[AslanCross]

The more often we did grappling, the more quickly everyone picked it up. After running a behir and a few bonedrinkers, my players knew the grapple rules all too well.

[Eldariel]

The more often we did grappling, the more quickly everyone picked it up. After running a behir and a few bonedrinkers, my players knew the grapple rules all too well.

There are quite a few pesky side-rules related to it though, like the "allowed actions list" that really doesn't go well with any expanded contents, the "multiple grapplers"-crap along with the "maximum grapplers per size category" and "you may conduct grapple with one bodypart with -20" and using natural weapons in grapple (still takes -4 even if you grabbed the target with that bodypart) and so on. I never had an issue with the basics of grappling, but boy do I hate all the random stuff that comes up with it...

[pres_man]

i still have trouble with criticals and remembering whether I multiple my Favored Enemy damage as well or not for some reason. lol. I'm sure I've been told before but I can't make it stick in my head.

PS: I've only actually be playing for around 18 months total, but been interested int he game for some 8 or 9 years now.

Just to quickly comment on this specific issue. The hard and fast rule I generally go by is you don't multiple extra dice, do multiple extra numbers. So a rogue's sneak attack dice (extra dice) do not get multiplied, but a rangers favored enemy damage (extra numbers) does. There may be some rare corner cases where that doesn't hold true, but that is the general rule I believe.

[SurlySeraph]

Attacks of opportunity can take a long time to understand.

[Eldariel]

Attacks of opportunity can take a long time to understand.

Especially the fact that you only provoke them for leaving squares. That took me like 2 weeks to get straight (since I didn't get to read the rules as we went straight into gaming). Entering square never provokes (well, ok, charging into Hold the Line-character, but you get my point). So what's relevant is which square you're leaving and who's threatening that.

And all modes of movement, other than those that specifically state otherwise, provoke. So Charging provokes as per normal, Withdraw provokes as per normal beyond the first square, Spring Attack provokes as per normal from other characters and so on.

[Doomboy911]

My friends and I have trouble rolling for everything. We're about to climb off a massive monster with a long rope and instead of rolling dice for climb checks we just say that we're down at some points we skip over short parts where we all know nothing is going to happen like crossing a bridge that we crossed twice.