Fellow player keeps getting killed. Comments?

[Alejandro]

I'm a player in a 3.5 D&D group. We have a rogue/swashbuckler/duelist (me), a warmage, a bow ranger, a cleric/paladin, a halfling rogue, a human barbarian, and a duskblade.

The barbarian is character #2 for that player, and was killed last game. Character #1 was a druid. The druid lasted for a while, but ultimately was slaughtered. The player struggled with a druid, which is a bad sign given that druid is such a powerful character class. His main problems were a reluctance to use his wild shape power, and a tendency to use weapons instead of casting spells.

Noting this, we suggested he play a barbarian next. His main problems with the barbarian were that he sometimes would not rage at the start of a combat encounter, for fear of wasting the use of rage, or for fear of running out of rage before the battle ends and becoming tired. He also had Furious Charge, but did not often charge.

Any suggestions for the next replacement character?

[Kylarra]

Have him play a warblade or crusader. Alternatively something like DFA or Warlock whose abilities are "always on" so he doesn't have to worry about running out.

[Foeofthelance]

Sword and board fighter, with a lot of strength and con. Stack a bunch of feats like cleave, great, cleave, weapon specialization, etc. Its not going to be the most amazing build ever, but it should be simple enough for him to play, and it sounds like what he needs right now is something simple and durable. It sounds like he might be a new player, or just doesn't like having to keep track of multiple abilities. So if he's ok with tanking, let him tank.

[Telonius]

I'd recommend Warblade for power, but if he's having trouble mastering the basics I'd save that for awhile.

Knight, Paladin, or even a few levels of Fighter would be preferable, if he's worrying about running out of juice. Warlock could also work, though it's a lot trickier to manage if you're looking for melee.

[Xenogears]

Have him play a warblade or crusader. Alternatively something like DFA or Warlock whose abilities are "always on" so he doesn't have to worry about running out.

I'd say go for the DFA since most people like dragons, fire, and fistfulls of dice.

[taltamir]

explain to him what he is doing wrong and why it is better to use his abilities and spells?

[Alejandro]

I explained at length when he was playing the druid. It just didn't click. This is his first time playing 3rd Edition, although he professed to be a veteran and skilled player in 2nd Ed.

[AtwasAwamps]

It seems that his main issue is that he doesn't want to "waste" his powers. That shouldn't be the cause of his death so much as it is the cause of his being useless to the party.

I would suggest giving him a class that has no limitations on power usage. Previous posters have suggested warlock and DFA, and both are great choices. Warblade might be good for him as well, since despite the class' complexity, it possesses endlessly renewable maneuvers that he will feel pleased about using. Beyond that, a good fighter or rogue will allow him to utilize abilities that are "always on" as well.

[taltamir]

if you don't mind sharing, how exactly did he die in both cases?
it is a good point AtwasAwamps made that not "wasting" your powers should cause you to be useless to the party, but not result in your death. What is he doing that is getting him killed all the time?

[Grumman]

I'd suggest Crusader. I don't think that the things you mentioned are the reason for his deaths, but a Crusader would help him survive by being unbelieveably tough and help him be useful by forcing him to "waste" uses of his abilities if he doesn't use them ASAP.

[RagnaroksChosen]

May i sugest letting him play a barbarian type again
Accept give him the Frenzy class feature(its from Phb2)
basicaly if his hp drops below a certian amount (5* class level) he gets rage bonuses... this way he doesn't need to worry about when to use it as it will kick in automaticaly...


If that doesn't work or hes not interested.
Have him play a 2hnded fighter..

Also his aclaimed 2nd edition vet status what did he enjoy playing as?

[Xenogears]

Plus DFA's can always go pure con if they want to ignore non buff invocations. That gives a bunch of HP to help him not die. Plus breathing fire is just plain badass. If he does go for this maximum con can be got from dragonborn mongrelfolk IIRC. Something like +6 or +8 con. Or just go with Warforged to have a firebreathing robot...

[Evard]

I vote for two weapon ranger so that he will have some spells but his main attacks will be with weapons (while having a full BAB).

Of course 3.5 dnd may not be his cup of tea? He sounds like someone who would like the idea of at-wills from 4e.

[Alejandro]

To answer some questions:

- He played a druid in 2nd Ed. Kind of funny actually, seeing as I can't think of a 2nd ed class that changed more in 3rd ed.

- His druid was killed by a bunch of undead meleeing him into bits. He had not wildshaped into, say, a bear, and was fighting them with his sword.

- His barbarian was killed by blowing a Will save to a Slay Living.

- He does fear 'wasting' abilities but this often leads to him not contributing much, at least in terms of raw ability to destroy enemies when we get into a battle.

[RagnaroksChosen]

To answer some questions:

- He played a druid in 2nd Ed. Kind of funny actually, seeing as I can't think of a 2nd ed class that changed more in 3rd ed.

- His druid was killed by a bunch of undead meleeing him into bits. He had not wildshaped into, say, a bear, and was fighting them with his sword.

- His barbarian was killed by blowing a Will save to a Slay Living.

- He does fear 'wasting' abilities but this often leads to him not contributing much, at least in terms of raw ability to destroy enemies when we get into a battle.


Ya druids in 2nd ed played alot different then in 3rd...

the will save issue is well a bad will save...
I'd say keep him as a barbarian drop the rage for frenzy and make sure he has pounce...

[Evard]

Give him a barbarian again and tell him to "go crazy" for at least one battle.. You could even set up side battles for him and let him take on some monsters you put up against him and give him a feel for it.

It sounds like he just needs to break out of his shell a bit and i think doing the above will get it done.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Give him a barbarian again and tell him to "go crazy" for at least one battle.. You could even set up side battles for him and let him take on some monsters you put up against him and give him a feel for it.

It sounds like he just needs to break out of his shell a bit and i think doing the above will get it done.

ya thats actauly a great idea...
you could even have a mirror fight so to say... have another barbarian challange him...
and have the other barbarian rage... lol

[Optimystik]

I'm going to be the black sheep here and suggest Binder.

They have no ability dependency (a touch of Charisma helps the binding checks, but not necessary except for RP issues.) The abilities are all unlimited, and he can pump CON and gish to his heart's content. He gets a ton of great abilities and can back up anyone in the party.

Best of all, he can double as party face with the Binder's nice skillset, a role I think you guys could use.

[Tyndmyr]

DFA imo, too. Cause dragons are freaking awesome, and there's nothing to "save".

[Telonius]

Does your party have a Wizard in it? He could force the issue.

Pointy Hat: Well go on, get angry at it!
Conan the Librarian: I'm not sure, we might need to fight something bigger...
PH: Seriously, he's making fun of your mom.
CL: My mother was a classy lady, but that's no reason to use bad tactics.
PH: Oh, for the love of Boccob ... ::casts Rage::
CL: Roar! Smash! :smallfurious:

[taltamir]

ouch, failed will save vs slay living, I don't see what he could have done against that as a barb...

wait a minute...
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/slayliving.htm (its a fort save, not will)
And if he was tanking an enemy cleric, how come your cleric didn't put a death ward on him?

BTW, slay living is a level 5 spell, what level are you guys?

I guess he could have also stayed out of reach of the enemy cleric by using a spiked chain.

People tell me 2e was a lot more lethal than 3e... is he really as big a veteran as he says?


Does your party have a Wizard in it? He could force the issue.

Pointy Hat: Well go on, get angry at it!
Conan the Librarian: I'm not sure, we might need to fight something bigger...
PH: Seriously, he's making fun of your mom.
CL: My mother was a classy lady, but that's no reason to use bad tactics.
PH: Oh, for the love of Boccob ... ::casts Rage::
CL: Roar! Smash! :smallfurious:

overruling someone else's character is a bad bad thing to do.

[Xenogears]

ouch, failed will save vs slay living, I don't see what he could have done against that as a barb...
wait a minute...
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/slayliving.htm
And if he was tanking an enemy cleric, how come your cleric didn't put a death ward on him?
BTW, slay living is a level 5 spell, what level are you guys?
I guess he could have also stayed out of reach of the enemy cleric by using a spiked chain.
People tell me 2e was a lot more lethal than 3e... is he really as big a veteran as he says?

I think the lethality might be why he always wants to preserve his rages. Ya know "we can survive this fight without but who knows whats next" gets pretty embedded in you when you need to think like that to survive. Although I've never played 2nd edition or met this person so i'm just guessing.

The Will/Fort thing is much worse though. Not that I suspect malice on the DM's part but dieing due to misreading the rules is the worst way to die.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I think the lethality might be why he always wants to preserve his rages. Ya know "we can survive this fight without but who knows whats next" gets pretty embedded in you when you need to think like that to survive. Although I've never played 2nd edition or met this person so i'm just guessing.

The Will/Fort thing is much worse though. Not that I suspect malice on the DM's part but dieing due to misreading the rules is the worst way to die.


ya 2nd ed could be liek that especialy if you had gms that where all about the gygax style of play... tomb of horrors comes to mind.

[Alejandro]

It's not that he doesn't like playing. It's that he is highly ineffective in battle. Which is saying a lot, when you are playing druids and barbarians.

We already have several great social characters, such as myself.

I am sensing that he is frustrated. We are playing a highly dangerous campaign set (our last foes were a beholder and a mystic theurge banalar(sp?) and you need to have a fairly optimized character to contribute strongly. I do well, because I am a sneak attacking melee machine with a great AC, and the warmage does well, and the cleric/paladin does extremely well. But his barbarian could do, say, 25 points of damage per melee hit, where I can easily do 60.

I have tried to help him make a more optimized character (I suggested that exalted barbarian prestige class) but he rejected it.

[Alejandro]

My mistake, I meant Fort save. He blew a Fort save.

I am the highest level PC at level 13. He was 11.

Our cleric was busy simultaneously destroying a mob of magic missile hurling undead and healing us of large amounts of damage so we didn't all die.


ouch, failed will save vs slay living, I don't see what he could have done against that as a barb...

wait a minute...
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/slayliving.htm
And if he was tanking an enemy cleric, how come your cleric didn't put a death ward on him?

BTW, slay living is a level 5 spell, what level are you guys?

I guess he could have also stayed out of reach of the enemy cleric by using a spiked chain.

People tell me 2e was a lot more lethal than 3e... is he really as big a veteran as he says?



overruling someone else's character is a bad bad thing to do.

[Kylarra]

Well, I'll second DFA again I think. High con means tankier and stronger breath attack, and he'll be doing whatever. Take entangling exhalation or whatever it is, and he'll be a fine battlefield controller with utility invocations.

[Xenogears]

I have tried to help him make a more optimized character (I suggested that exalted barbarian prestige class) but he rejected it.

In that case your best bet is to try and direct him towards a class that is hard to make bad (Like ToB classes or DFA). That way if he picks i no matter what he makes it should be good.

[Alejandro]

What is DFA? I do not know that acronym.

[RagnaroksChosen]

It's not that he doesn't like playing. It's that he is highly ineffective in battle. Which is saying a lot, when you are playing druids and barbarians.

We already have several great social characters, such as myself.

I am sensing that he is frustrated. We are playing a highly dangerous campaign set (our last foes were a beholder and a mystic theurge banalar(sp?) and you need to have a fairly optimized character to contribute strongly. I do well, because I am a sneak attacking melee machine with a great AC, and the warmage does well, and the cleric/paladin does extremely well. But his barbarian could do, say, 25 points of damage per melee hit, where I can easily do 60.

I have tried to help him make a more optimized character (I suggested that exalted barbarian prestige class) but he rejected it.

What level are you guys and what books are allowed mabye we can get some basic builds together...

High damage with out alot of abilities...


Mabye a kensi of sorts?

How are you guys doing stat generation?


EDIT:

Have you thought about Dragon shaman?

d10 hit die... Large amount of Con needed for breath weapon. then from there you can kinda do what ever he wants... plus he will ususaly be contributing due to his auras?

he can even do more aura goodness via marshal or that dragon lord class... out of i belive dragon magic.

I saw a cool elf build on the wotc forums that got str dex and int to weapon dmg... with a two hander.

[The Glyphstone]

Another vote for Warblade. It's a frontline melee class with plenty of damage-dealing power right out of the box, and has a d12 hit die for plenty of HP to soak hits with. On his end, it will be nothing more than a matter of 'which awesome way do I want to hit them with my sword this round' versus 'I've run out of awesome ways to hit them with my sword, I'll take one turn to stab them the boring way and get all my awesome hits recharged'.

[Xenogears]

What is DFA? I do not know that acronym.

Dragon Flame Adept. Basically they got some invocations like a warlock but their main ability is a breath weapon usable every turn that scales the damage and gets various alterations you can add to it to either change the damage, range, shape, make it cause status effects, fire five off at once if your evil...

[RagnaroksChosen]

Another vote for Warblade. It's a frontline melee class with plenty of damage-dealing power right out of the box, and has a d12 hit die for plenty of HP to soak hits with. On his end, it will be nothing more than a matter of 'which awesome way do I want to hit them with my sword this round' versus 'I've run out of awesome ways to hit them with my sword, I'll take one turn to stab them the boring way and get all my awesome hits recharged'.

Though I agree with you...
If he realy is a classic 2nd ed player he may be against/uncomfortable with TOB.

[Alejandro]

Tome of Battle isn't in use in our game. We do have access to most other books, however, given GM approval.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Tome of Battle isn't in use in our game. We do have access to most other books, however, given GM approval.

has the player mentioned what type of character he would like to play... or has it pritty much been i want to hit it with my sword.

[Person_Man]

Well, if your DM chooses to use Save or Die effects against you, there's very few things you can do to protect yourself 100% of the time. Death is just going to occur sometimes. It's a normal part of 3.X combat. If you don't like dying, play 4E.

But in general, I don't think a change of class is necessary, just a change of tactics. If a player has a hard time with melee combat, then don't fight in melee combat. Fight from a distance using ranged attacks, spells, or a reach weapon (this includes natural weapons if you're Wildshaped into a Large or bigger creature). Use battlefield control tactics. (I have a list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026)). Learn how to use the Withdraw action if you're below 20% of your hit point total (or drink a Potion of Invisibility and walk away).

The real key to survival in any game is intelligence, not stronger crunch.

[Evard]

ya thats actauly a great idea...
you could even have a mirror fight so to say... have another barbarian challange him...
and have the other barbarian rage... lol


Also make sure he knows dnd is a team game so even if he is weaker in the next fight his allies wont be mad since he helped in the first fight of the day by slaughtering the enemies. Of course by weaker i mean not raging as much -_- lol

you could ask the DM to make the barbarian's rages per encounter so that when he uses them he knows if he rests he will have them back the next fight.

[Sliver]

you could ask the DM to make the barbarian's rages per encounter so that when he uses them he knows if he rests he will have them back the next fight.

What is the point of having a finite amount of rage then? It lasts long enough to be used once per encounter, and encounters will end quite likely before the rage does..

[Eldariel]

Barbarian with pimped-out Will-save courtesy of Steadfast Determination and Extra Rage seems good. Seriously, his base Con should be high (make it a Water Orc, a Dragonborn, a Dwarf or some other Con-boosting race and try for 18) and his Rage pumps it by +4; +5 with Reckless Rage, +6 with Greater Rage, +7 with both. And his Con boosts his Fort meaning he shouldn't fail outside nat 1s especially with Cloak of Resistance.

If he has trouble with timing his Rages, give him Immediate Rage-build so he can use them as "OH ****!"-buttons when the **** really hits the fans. Give him Intimidating Rage and if possible, Imperious Command [DoTU], for Great Profit too. Oh, and if you're on midlevels? Try to find him a Luckblade to reroll his 1s on saves.


All of that stuff except Imperious Command (Best. Feat. Ever. Requires 15 Cha tho) is in PHBII, Completes or SRD.

[Aldizog]

If he's willing to step back from mixing it up in melee, bard.

He'll have spells that your warmage and duskblade don't, the skills and Bardic Knowledge are great and never run out (not every challenge is combat), and bardic music is probably going to be a tremendous boost for a party of this size and composition. Extra Music and Lingering Song he'll have way more than he knows what to do with.

Or see if you can house-rule some unlimited music bard variant; it doesn't sound like this is the kind of player who would find a way to abuse that.

[Amphetryon]

Mongrelfolk (Races of Destiny) Barbarian with Extra Rage, Steadfast Determination, Instantaneous Rage (all as Eldariel suggested), and Mad Foam Rager (PHb II) should, at the very least, keep him up until the fight's over assuming his tactics aren't abysmal and the DM hasn't decided that the Barbarian is "It".

[Eldariel]

Mongrelfolk (Races of Destiny) Barbarian with Extra Rage, Steadfast Determination, Instantaneous Rage (all as Eldariel suggested), and Mad Foam Rager (PHb II) should, at the very least, keep him up until the fight's over assuming his tactics aren't abysmal and the DM hasn't decided that the Barbarian is "It".

Actually, toss on that Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightement (Pride). Planar Touchstone is a feat from Planar Handbook that enables binding to Planar Sites. Catalogues of Enlightement is a Planar Site that grants you a Domain Granted Power from any Domain of your choice. Pride-domain's granted power is the ability to reroll 1s on all saving throws.

Seems like something he could use. And yeah, that's a mouthful, but really, it's just one feat. Other option would be taking a level or two of Cleric and getting the Pride-domain that way. Either way, rerolling 1s on saves would make things much more...forgiving to him.

[Alejandro]

I think in this case, simple is better. Lots of feats or abilities will just make it worse. I personally think a Warlock is a good choice. They are basically point and click damage dealers that don't have to pick spells at all.

[Evard]

What is the point of having a finite amount of rage then? It lasts long enough to be used once per encounter, and encounters will end quite likely before the rage does..

He will be more apt to use rage (he still will have the penalties after the rage) and it's not like that would break the barbarian or make him as powerful as some other barbarian builds.

[snoopy13a]

Is the DM picking on him? Does the DM react to his play by targetting him than the other players?

A suboptimal character may get a party member killed but not necessarily the suboptimal character. For example, a wizard who decides to shoot a crossbow instead of casting spells might get someone else killed but not necessarily him(her)self.

The problem may not just be the player.

[Lycanthromancer]

Dragon Flame Adept. Basically they got some invocations like a warlock but their main ability is a breath weapon usable every turn that scales the damage and gets various alterations you can add to it to either change the damage, range, shape, make it cause status effects, fire five off at once if your evil...It's dragonFIRE adept.

It's like warlock, but gets a breath weapon instead of eldritch blast.

Frankly, I like them much better, especially with breath weapon feats.

Considerably better than dragon shaman, too.

[Evard]

Is the DM picking on him? Does the DM react to his play by targetting him than the other players?

A suboptimal character may get a party member killed but not necessarily the suboptimal character. For example, a wizard who decides to shoot a crossbow instead of casting spells might get someone else killed but not necessarily him(her)self.

The problem may not just be the player.

well by going off what the creator has said...
not using rage as a barbarian
not using wildshape and spells as a druid

if he is being picked directly by the DM it may be to get him to start using the classes strengths..

[Origomar]

I like the bard idea, he can help without having to be overly optimized and buffs are always helpful.

[Lycanthromancer]

Totemist? He seems to like the nature's warrior thing, and soulmelds will really do that well. Unlimited ammo, too.

You'll just have to explain how he can shift around his essentia. Give him card (replete with descriptions) and counters for his essentia pool (pennies work well), and voila.

[Optimystik]

Can't believe I forgot Totemist! Yeah, that will fit him like a glove, assuming your group can wrap its head around Incarnum.

[Evard]

Boar totemist sounds like a good one for him
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#boarTotemClassFeatures

[Kallisti]

Boar totemist sounds like a good one for him
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#boarTotemClassFeatures

Totemist is its own class, from Magic of Incarnum. It's not the Spirit Totem Barbarian line, although that'd be a good choice too.

[Sliver]

He will be more apt to use rage (he still will have the penalties after the rage) and it's not like that would break the barbarian or make him as powerful as some other barbarian builds.

I'm not against the idea as a whole, I'm just saying that if you are giving him an ability that most of the times lasts for the entire encounter and tell him it recharges every encounter, then why not just tell him "use it whenever you would like to."

Although I find all these solutions are ignoring the problem, not solving it. A player should know that hoarding resources is worse then using them when he should.

[RagnaroksChosen]

It's dragonFIRE adept.

It's like warlock, but gets a breath weapon instead of eldritch blast.

Frankly, I like them much better, especially with breath weapon feats.

Considerably better than dragon shaman, too.

I agree a DFA is > the a DS...
Though I think the DS can have its uses and i think that the DS has a more gritty feel to it. (granted i play and run alot of gritty type games)

[LibraryOgre]

Pops into my head every time I see this thread:

COUNTERPOINT:
He made his characters, he knew what he was getting into. I say <turns towards the camera> 'Let 'im die!'

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to Macho Grande to deal with my drinking problem.