Final Fantasy 2d6 (Complete System) [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Dust

2010-01-04, 02:46 PM

EDIT: You can now view the corebook here (http://www.mychyl.com/FFRPG.pdf), no download required.

FURTHER EDIT: I certainly haven't stopped work on this project, but there were issues with gameplay mechanics - specifically, combat balance problems with armor and HP -that meant I needed to revise huge sections of the book. Instead of doing so half-arsed, I've been working on this thing from the ground up. A website is in the works to go along with the entirely rewritten book(s! now plural!) but don't hold your breath! I still have artists to pay and I am, after all, only one woman!

Now, to the Main Post!

Quite a few people know the the Final Fantasy RPG (usually abbreviated as FFRPG) produced by The Returners (http://www.returnergames.com/) - developed over the span of six years through e-mail and IRC, it's the most commonly-accepted system for games set in the FF universe, moreso than the Zodiac RPG (http://www.angelfire.com/games3/zodiac/) or our very own Zeta Kai's Final Fantasy X d20 (http://www.filefront.com/14133637/FFX-D20-v1.1.pdf/) (a personal favorite). There's a handful of others out there such as Viladin's Universal d20 (http://ffd20.orgfree.com/phpBB2/index.php) and the as-of-yet-unfinished settings that these boards contain, too many to list with all due respect.

That being said, I'd like to yet add another to the list.

The Final Fantasy 2d6 system started as a rehash of The Returners 3rd ed system, but has started to develop into its own project entirely. The book as it stands currently is very different from the shoddily-formatted, typo-filled pdf linked both above and in my signature. However, it is playable in this state, and I wanted to post my preliminary works for y'all.

Tacit

2010-01-06, 04:30 PM

I don't really know what to make of this - and with 120+ views, 40+ downloads and no comments, I guess I'm not the only one!

Here's my thoughts.

Pros:
- Character creation is a lot of fun. I spent a good two hours mentally building all the Final Fantasy heroes that I could think of and saw that they were do-able, even bizarre ones like Umaro and Cait Sith. I saw possibilities for cool characters sprining out of almost every ability, from the urban Geomancer with a grappling hook for a weapon to the android Ninja with built-in cloaking.

- Character creation is FAST, did I mention that? Once I had a concept, it took me three minuets to turn it into a working character. Leveling up also takes less than a minute and doesn't disrupt the flow of the game.

- The game looks balanced. The one ability that really drove this point home was Dual Wielding, which, in this game, allows you to up your crit rate to 1/8 and basically never miss, but costs a FORTUNE and will cause the character's defense to suffer. Dual Wielding is always an issue - here, it's powerful enough to be a great option but not crazy enough to be munchkin fodder.

- The Bestiary is cool as hell. 'Nuff said.

- Destiny and Traits are neat. It allows you to do cool, metagamey things like showing up in the nick of time and promotes heroism (and dramatic choices) by the players. Traits are especially a good idea, because I thyink they'd help beginner RPers who could look down at their sheet and remind themselves 'Oh right, I'm Brilliant and Paranoid.'

- Here's the #1 pro. This game is far, far BETTER (in my opinion) than The Returners rpg from which it was inspired.

Cons:
- Attributes (STR, DEX, INT, CHA, etc) all taken from D&D. I'd think that would be a reference you'd want to avoid making, lest players get into the habit of confusing gameworlds, start kicking down the proverbial doors, stabbing behemoths, and taking their lewt.

- I don't like the predesigned game world. It seems to dabble from too many other sources and comes across as lacking and uninspired. Farplane from 10, The Void from 3-4, some giant city that's the writer's creation, Cornelia rewritten as a holy place, guilds from 11 and 14, etc.

- Death can occur way too easily for a FF game, and again, this uses the D&D rule of 'Death occurs at a certain number of hit points once you're in the negatives' which I've always loathed.

- The game system, as a whole, requires the player to know too much about the Final Fantasy world beforehand. Status effects, for example, are explained in less than a line each. 'Haste lets you take an extra round,' is not enough description for special combat effects that many, many monsters and almost every PC will be using.

- Some of the abilities don't actually make sense, like the Fighter's Armor Mastery, which allows him to magically swap his best type of defense as the situation calls for it. While neat, there's no explanation given for how this can possibly be achieved. As a player who likes to describe their actions, this is a letdown for me.

- A new player coming into the system is going to be VERY daunted by the number of choices. "I want to be a wizard," they might say, and then have to decide between White, Black, Red, Blue, Time, or one of the hybrid casters. Then they need to familiarize themself with a pageful of potential abilities and the three pages of shared abilities and choose 'the best' two (no pressure!), then an entire page of potential spells every 5-6 levels. Which would be FINE, if higher tier spells didn't require lower tier spells as a prerequisite, meaning that a Black Mage who wants to cast Flare eventually has to plan his route from level 1. And if you make a mistake? Well, sorry. There's no learning extra spells in this system - no Flare for you.

- Money, and the accountant-like tracking of it, is an issue for me. Some players might like watching their finances like a hawk. I don't.

- Character death. I know I already said this, but UGH. Some endgame bosses can even oneshot low-health characters like Entertainers from full to dead.

All in all, it looks really good and I'll be saving this for future use.

Dust

2010-01-09, 01:48 AM

Figured I'd give this one shameless self-bump before letting it lie.

Sintanan

2010-01-09, 04:22 AM

I'm reading up on it, but I'm fairly busy so expect a few days before you get a response from myself on this.

Just letting you know that there's at least one person here interested. :smallwink:

Zeta Kai

2010-01-09, 07:19 PM

I downloaded it, & will be looking over shortly. Needless to say, I'm intrigued.

Also, you spelled Viladin's name wrong in the first post. Just sayin'.

lesser_minion

2010-01-09, 08:23 PM

Is this the same system as the one that was being discussed on Myth-weavers a while back?

The old thread is here: http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=75377

There was definitely a lot of good material in there, and I think you've certainly done a great job, although I think some people would be worried about per-session durations.

I'll go back through it and see if there's anything else that might be worrying.

Dust

2010-01-09, 09:02 PM

...you spelled Viladin's name wrong in the first post. Just sayin'.
Well, that's embarassing. Thanks, and fixed.

Is this the same system as the one that was being discussed on Myth-weavers a while back?
The very same, apparantly. I wasn't even aware people had discovered and were not just reading, but PLAYING with the highly unfinished system; the website was never publicly advertised or listed on any search engines, so I'm not certain how it was found.

Tacit, I appreciate the summary. I tend to agree with you on all Cons except the last, and would even go so far as to say that Dual Wielding (and Summoning. Don't get me started.) still needs further fine-tuning.

Melamoto

2010-02-14, 04:48 AM

I like the system very much, and it seems like it would be great fun for the ideal group. My only problem is that for the wrong group, it won't work up to its full potential. It shares a lot in common with final fantasy, even things which wouldn't normally be expected to carry to a tabletop game. There are a lot of arbitrary rules relating to heroes, and other various metagame things (The Destiny and Traits are things I approve of though). All in all, it seems best suited to people who enjoy things like final fantasy, and who aren't expecting an open ended game like D&D. Although the levelling up system kind of makes my head spin.

I'd rate it 9/10 for the right group, and 5/10 for the wrong group. Mostly because you can play as Moogles.

dethkruzer

2010-02-15, 01:00 AM

This system seems really cool, based on atleast what people have posted.
I'd like to check this out but my computer is being tricky with me, so could someone please post a link to the Returners wiki so i can get my hands on it?

Dust

2010-02-15, 03:13 AM

As far as thread-necroes go, Melamoto, I've seen worse topics picked. :smallbiggrin:

Kruzer, the Returners' original rule system is here (http://www.returnergames.com/ord/index.php/Main_Page). The system being discussed in this thread is not precisely the same one, however.

Otogi

2010-02-17, 05:53 PM

I've got to say, out of all the FF games I've seen, the 2d6 version looks like the best I've seen. Count me in if we're using that system.

Devigod

2010-02-17, 06:04 PM

I'm actually starting a game on myth-weavers with some friends on this system, although I think I have an older version of the file (the cover art on this book is different).

At the moment, my players are still writing up characters, but for anybody curious to know how it's going, just send a PM my way on either site (I use the same username) and I'll give a status update.

Xallace

2010-02-17, 09:35 PM

I'm downloading the PDF now and will be able to give you an in-depth review this weekend. You have me interested.

Edit: This is pretty sweet. Character creation looks very simple, the powers are incredibly fun, and I very much like the way it's set up. This is an excellent job!

Dust

2010-02-17, 09:51 PM

I'm actually starting a game on myth-weavers with some friends on this system, although I think I have an older version of the file (the cover art on this book is different).
That version was never supposed to be leaked out, and I'm saddened people still use it. I don't recommend it one iota. There's balance issues galore.

Melamoto

2010-02-18, 10:45 AM

Well, right now I'm trying to get a game of either this or FFX d20 running up, but right now it looks like this is more popular. We mostly need a DM, but if anyone would like to try and play/playtest the system, then the thread is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141929).

Dust

2010-02-18, 07:22 PM

An independent critic website did a review of the system, which I only just stumbled upon today. It basically boiled down to 'setting sucks, mechanics rock.' A summary which, frankly, I am utterly pleased with.

You can read that here (http://cinfulcritiques.com/2010/02/17/rpgn3/) if that sort of tedium appeals to you.

Temotei

2010-02-18, 07:39 PM

There are two "Thief" headings under the table of contents. The second one should be "Time Mage," I believe.

Devigod

2010-02-18, 08:29 PM

That version was never supposed to be leaked out, and I'm saddened people still use it. I don't recommend it one iota. There's balance issues galore.

Yeah, because they were still making the characters, we're going to switch over before we begin. I have to say though, it's nothing less than utterly awesome.

Dust

2010-02-18, 08:45 PM

There are two "Thief" headings under the table of contents. The second one should be "Time Mage," I believe.
Things like this combined with the rampant spelling errors - it's astonishing this doesn't get confused for professional work more often! :smallwink:

Temotei

2010-02-18, 11:06 PM

Does the phantom weapon ability let the time mage send items back to where he or she called them from?

Dust

2010-02-18, 11:30 PM

Not explicitly said for whatever reason, but yes, that was how I envisioned the ability working. Fixed for clarity.

Temotei

2010-02-18, 11:37 PM

Not explicitly said for whatever reason, but yes, that was how I envisioned the ability working. Fixed for clarity.

Cool. :smallcool:

Zexion

2010-02-19, 12:19 AM

This system is really cool. Like it.

Temotei

2010-02-19, 12:26 AM

Do you need to buy several craftsman's tools (adventuring gear) if you want to use more than one Synthesis skill? I imagine you do, but it's not stated.

dragonfan6490

2010-02-19, 01:07 AM

I approve of your system. As a big Final Fantasy fan, I have copies of the Returners FFRPG 2e and 3e, Zeta Kai's FFX d20, and a smattering of others. This is by far one of the cleanest of the non-d20 systems I've seen.

Temotei

2010-02-19, 01:13 AM

Tackyhillbillu

2010-02-19, 01:23 AM

I have a question about Weapon Master Trait? It says by spending a Destiny Point, you can use an object just like it was one of your mainstream weapons.

Does this apply to things like Dragoon's Polearm linked abilities. Like say, being able to rip a Bar out of the side of a Jail Cell, and proceed to use that with their Impale ability?

Dust

2010-02-19, 01:23 AM

Area effect (limit break ability) works with random target?

Also, under the movement limit break ability, it lists 1, 2, and 5 as the costs, but then the text says 1, 3, and 5.

There are, as you mentioned, spelling errors. The one that bothers me most: Gysahl greens. You switched the "h" to be right after the "s."
So much to fix. :smallfrown: Thank you.

Do you need to buy several craftsman's tools (adventuring gear) if you want to use more than one Synthesis skill? I imagine you do, but it's not stated.
Left intentionally vague.
We heard too many arguments on both sides to make a RAW decision, and finally just stated that Craftsman's Tools are whatever you and the GM determine that they are, and that a Synthesis check without 'appropriate' tools suffers a penalty. There's very little - if any - difference in the blacksmithing tools one would need for Weapons and for Armor, or between Tinkering in Machinery. I'm sure a character could argue that their culinarian gear doubles as a portable alchemist lab, too.
While a rather on-the-fence way of looking at things, we figured it was better than table arguments.

I have a question about Weapon Master Trait? It says by spending a Destiny Point, you can use an object just like it was one of your mainstream weapons.

Does this apply to things like Dragoon's Polearm linked abilities. Like say, being able to rip a Bar out of the side of a Jail Cell, and proceed to use that with their Impale ability?
Absolutely. No matter what you describe your character might be forced to resort, you always treat it as if it was the weapon written on your sheet, for all purposes.

Melamoto

2010-02-20, 11:30 AM

Skills should be added as part of the character creation steps. Also, there is no given cost for a Bomb Core. Just very minor details, but nitpicking is always important to give a polished final product. A slightly larger complaint is the lack of rules for making custom armor. It can be easily left to DM judgement of course, but I just feel that it makes the armor section feel...lacking, compared to the much more detailed weapons section that comes just before it.

Temotei

2010-02-21, 12:43 AM

Is there any way you could put that character sheet in the back on a separate format, like The Tangled Web or Myth-Weavers has it?

Devigod

2010-02-21, 08:13 PM

I've made one formatted for myth-weavers here. (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ApghfFsOyPildGRpcW9JZ1VZNU0xRTVOMFhSenNkc UE&hl=en) It's a googledoc spreadsheet.

The statblock field generates a statblock written in VBcode that can be plugged right into the site for ease of posting. Feel free to make a copy of the doc for yourself and set your own sharing parameters.

If it's missing anything, let me know.

UserShadow7989

2010-02-21, 08:52 PM

One thing I've noticed: Under "Armor Skills" you say "With so many magically-enhanced sets of bodily protection scattered across the land, it’s no wonder that specialized training exists. Armor skills help you get the most out of your armor – if your skill is too low, you’ll be unable to access the special effects offered by armor, and take -2 penalties to all actions when wearing gear that you simply can’t move well in."

Nowhere does it say what "too low" is. At least not where I can find it. EDIT: Also, there's only 8 tiers of armor and putting the 9th and final point in an Armor Skill doesn't seem to grant any benefits on it's own.

Devigod

2010-02-21, 09:02 PM

It seems that the link I've posted has seen use- I'll post a fresh template for you guys and hopefully it'll still be copyable for whoever needs to use it.

Here's the new sheet. (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ApghfFsOyPildDUzWEdjazBRWDVNUEhmNG5jUFktV Xc&hl=en)

I have it set so that nobody can edit it, although you should be able to still make copies.

Temotei

2010-02-22, 03:41 AM

I've been looking everywhere, but I still can't find staff damage. I'm guessing (STR x 1) + 1d6, but I can't find it written.

Also: Here (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0Aex8pd5WSmE0ZGQ1enM0bm5fN3A2cjUzcGdk&hl=en)'s my take on the sheet.

Evard

2010-02-22, 07:25 PM

Have you/anyone recreated the Runic Knight from the returners? It was my favorite class and sadly I see it missing =[ lol

Sintanan

2010-02-23, 04:41 AM

Have you/anyone recreated the Runic Knight from the returners? It was my favorite class and sadly I see it missing =[ lol

Not sure what exactly the Runic Knight is from returners, as I have yet to look at it, but I'm gonna take a stab that what you are looking for would be the Runic chain of job abilities under the Red Mage.

Dust

2010-02-23, 01:36 PM

The problem with Runic Knight - like so many of the other Jobs in the core Returners' system - is that it was one ability, and a new 'attack' every ten levels. Take a look at Red Mage - it retains the Runic Knight's namesake ability and melee skill, as well as granting you true spellcasting.

Staves are a (STR x Tier) + 2d6 weapon. (I've been on the fence about this for ages. I feel like you should be able to sacrifice a bit of damage in exchange for using INT instead, and to sod the whole Spell Effect ability.)

Melamoto and Temotei continue to point out how much work I still need to do, which is, of course, appreciated wholeheartedly. Spell prerequisites are dumb and were fixed, for example.

My internet has been inoperational due to a construction crew slicing through several important cables, so I won't be checking this thread for some time.

Dust

2010-02-23, 01:45 PM

(And as already discussed thoroughly in the gameplay thread that's taking place on these boards, I clearly need to sit down and re-evaluate armor, re-do the financial spreadsheets, and come up with a formula for HP/MP determining that doesn't create headaches, make it nigh-impossible to create characters above first level, and prevent early-game stat-grabbing for late-game advantages.)

Melamoto

2010-02-23, 02:03 PM

Well, I think that at least two of those have already been figured out in the thread. Give the -2 penalty to roll to armor where your skill is less than the armor tier (Maybe making larger penalties with larger armor), and make total hp equal 10 + Level(Job Bonus + VIT).

Dust

2010-02-23, 02:15 PM

You're right.
The first is already in effect but needs serious clarification. The second is excellent and allows simplification in other places, too.

Artemiz

2010-02-23, 06:19 PM

This is insanely cool, and just the sort of thing I've been looking for. I love RPG design, and something new and refreshing with a cool system is just what I've been looking to read. It looks like great work, and I look forward to reading through it, and perhaps even get the guys together for a game.

Thanks a ton. :smallbiggrin:

UserShadow7989

2010-02-23, 08:59 PM

I found another spelling error, this one in the Beastiary under Sephiroth's Limit Break. You spelled his name 'Dephiroth'.

On another note, why are stat increases from equipment used when calculating your HP/MP at level up? It doesn't make sense for it to stay once the character's taken the armor/weapon off. It would be better to say that you multiply the bonus it provides to HP or MP while it's equipped by your level, which lasts until it's unequipped. As is, it encourages wearing weaker armor and shoving attribute points into VIT and INT early game to get extra hit points.

Billkillsyou

2010-02-25, 03:12 PM

I'm liking this so far, but how exactly should I represent the short/medium/long range on a grid? Should I remove a battlegrid altogether?

Also, I can't figure out what the point of armor skills are for. Do you need at least that many points in the armor skill to equip armor of that tier?

And is there any particular reason you stop getting exp at -10?

Temotei

2010-02-25, 04:40 PM

And is there any particular reason you stop getting exp at -10?

To keep it in the flavor of Final Fantasy's heroics, I imagine. It would be interesting to run an evil game where the opposite was true.

Artemiz

2010-02-26, 05:18 PM

After reading the entire rulebook and campaign setting, I got a few friends together yesterday and we spent a few hours going over the game and rolling characters. Today, we played through a quick quest involving lots of Killer Bees and a Killer Bee Drone (micro-boss).

I would have to reinforce my last post and say that I am extremely impressed with both the game and the system. I love the unique mechanics, as well as how you mixed aspects of many of the games together. The character creation is spectacular, as well. The following are errors/issues I found/have with the pdf/game:

The character creation section isn't "complete" enough. I would mention equipment, skills, and traits at the end of the section, noting that the relevent sections of the book are in the following chapters.
It doesn't appear that staff damage is directly stated. My group's Black Mage assumed 1d6 single-handed and 2d6 two-handed, which is obvious, but I would still mention it. :smallsmile:
I think that it would be cool to include a section on how to run the game, with respect to markers and miniatures as well as how a session might progress. I simply made a 6-section "map" where the PC's and enemies were positioned, with one section meaning Short Range, two increments being Medium Range, and three increments being Long Range. I think the game would be improved, however, by having a layout for this sort of thing defined in the rules.
I think the EXP system could use a bit of work. I like the concept of "no exp for weaker enemies, normal exp for at-level enemies, and more exp for stronger enemies," however I find that in a normal quest, there might be 10-20 combats before the boss is reached. The overall uncertainty created by this system leads me to my next point.
There is no standard session/quest format provided in the rules. I found myself disappointed with the strangeness of the EXP system, and had no standard provided for me to as to how much EXP my players should get in a standard session. As stated above, in a normal-sized quest (presumably) of 10-20 encounters, the players would receive 10-20 EXP, leveling up 2-4 times before reaching the final boss, whereupon defeat, the players would receive 2 EXP for the boss and the combat in total? Seems strange. I would think that, even without a level cap, the PC's should level up one or two times per mission, given that the system only supplies info for characters up to level 30. Is this how the game is supposed to play out? I had no idea.
Speaking of levels and such, if the game is going to advance as quickly as assumed (which I hope it would not, 1-2 levels per quest sounds a lot better than 2-4 levels), direct information should be provided with regard to going past level 30. We see that after obtaining one's rank three limit break, attribute maxiums are removed (which is a cool mechanic), and level increments for attribute point bonuses and abilities are provided, but some information on avalable spell slots for casters past level 30 would be cool.
I noticed that you provided great information for adding to the beastiary, and thought that identical information for new spells would be cool, as well (unless you did provide such information and I simply missed it?) :smallbiggrin:
EDIT: An above poster mentioned the point of armor skill ranks. Come to think of it, I don't remember anything about that in the rules, either. You just mention that without high enough rank, you can't wear certain types of armor, though I'm at a loss as to how to measure that. Care to clarify? :smallwink:

Stuff I'm REALLY Impressed With:

The campaign world. Again, I really like the mix of the games.
The depth of the Engineer and the Refine ability.
The spell system. Really simple and unique.
The item system. Really flawless for the type of FF gameplay feel we're going for here. Great selection.
The weapon/damage system. Simple, yet allows for great amounts of strategy.
The crafting system. Really perfect and just the right amount of depth. I think it's great how much of an effect crafting can have on the PC's.
The job system. A well-balanced, broad variety of roles, again mixing from all of the FF games.
The races. Great, broad selection. Nice choices for the game.
Statuses. Well-implemented.
The simplicity of the creature system.
The lore of the magic and m-tec systems. Cool backgrounds.
How well the system flows and comes together.
The overall game feel. I love how it goes along so closesly with the video games' mechanics and play.

You've done a truly top-notch job here, Dust. :smallbiggrin: As a final note, I'd like to mention that I've written my fair share of homebrew RPG's and game systems, and if you'd like a hand, or perhaps just a bit of input, I'd be more than glad to help out. :smallsmile:

P.S. I think it would be cool to have a 15-30 page document that would contain reference material for players during sessions. This would allow for only one laptop at the table (without having the entire 200-some-odd page document printed). If you'd like someone to look into that for you, just let me know. :smallsmile:

Tackyhillbillu

2010-03-01, 07:01 PM

Dust, got a question that just came up in play.

How does charging interact with Followthrough? In this instance, my Dragoon charged a Killer Bee, got a crit, and took his second attack. Does he continue to recieve the heightened multiplier from Charging, or is that extinguished with the first attack?

Sairyu

2010-03-04, 12:17 AM

I posted a semi-homebrew thing using your system if that's alright.

If you object, I'll take it down.

Sorry, I forgot to ask earlier before I put it up.

Link is, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8006005#post8006005).

Aerodynamik

2010-03-05, 10:07 AM

So the system is awesome. I especially like how it's built so that it can easily be played on message boards and stuff. I have a question about the rules though.

Some skills have multiple stats that are listed. Like (STR/DEX). Which one do I use? Do I use both? Is it an either/or situation? I couldn't find it in the rule book. Could someone tell me what page it's on?

Verdigris

2010-03-05, 02:18 PM

I'd like to add my voice to the thread and agree that this is a very slick ruleset, and I think with a bit of editing it can only get better.

I've been rolling up a character, and I was curious about the "Athletics" skill referenced in the description of the Mobility ability for the ninja class on page 50 of the PDF. Is this an error, or am I missing a rule citation somewhere in the document? I went ahead and applied the relevant skill bonus toward my Climbing skill, since that seemed thematically appropriate at the time.

Anyway, keep up the good work!

Dust

2010-03-06, 07:00 PM

In retrospect, I feel as though the book was posted prematurely. There is still a GREAT deal of work I need to do on it before it's 'ready' in my eyes! Still, I appreciate the overall positive comments. :smalltongue:

Sphere Hunter is very, very neat. Steal and Modify as you like. When the next release of the book gets uploaded here in, oh, a month or so, I'll ensure I show the job breakdown to demonstrate how they all use the same point-buy system at their base, which should help with the homebrewing.

Skills which have multiple attributes beside them can use either of those two skills to determine their maximums.

As for your amazing bee-crushing criticals, Tacky, the momentum gained from charging lasts for one single attack unfortunately, else a hasted Dragoon with haste going Jump-Attack-Attack in a single round be considerably more deadly than everyone else. I'll make sure I note that.

The Mobility ability didn't get properly updated, and benefits both the Acrobatics - not athletics - skill as well as the Climbing skill.

WyT

2010-03-08, 08:02 PM

Interesting game, Dust, but as you said it still needs some clarifications. However it's a neat alternative for the Returners system. It would be nice to see other Final Fantasy races and jobs, so I'll wait for the next edition to convert them on my own! I'm gonna include Creimires, Qus, and Lilties for sure!

EDIT: I've got a question. For what is used Light, medium and heavy armor skills? I can't find it in the book.

steelsmiter

2010-03-10, 04:54 AM

I'm a big fan of the system and I'm new to the forums so I just thought I'd break the ice a little bit by telling you the above and also asking the following:

Is there a chance we will see something like Mix?

Dust

2010-03-10, 12:30 PM

For what is used Light, medium and heavy armor skills?
Whoops. That's another edit I need to do. The attributes tied to skills are listed without fail on the character sheet. (As further eratta, although it doesn't say it, medium armor can use either STR or DEX.)

Cheers, Steelsmiter. I remember your emails, so consider the ice broken. :smallbiggrin:

While the source material - The Returners FFRPG - did utilize a Mix system for one of their core jobs, our philosophy toward the rules has always been to keep things as uncomplicated as possible. Having to flip open the corebook during play - especially when its probably on someone's laptop! - is something we especially strove to avoid.

Since Mix is ultimately a large chart of random outcomes, and their version ended up being a ridiculous ten-page document (http://www.returnergames.com/battle_mix.rar), we have no intentions on creating anything similar for this system, at this time.

steelsmiter

2010-03-10, 11:51 PM

that works. thanks for the fast reply. I always use either steelsmiter or dwarf99 on absolutely all of my usernames, Its no surprise people are starting to pick up on it.

I've been implementing a flaw system whereby a character would take a flaw at the start of the game and gain one additional shared ability(only one flaw only one shared ability). It seems to work well, but my list of flaws is rather short.

Any suggestions?

Sairyu

2010-03-11, 12:14 PM

Past the ones in Unearthed Arcana (adapted to 2d6), you can just take several shared abilities or traits and invert them. For example, you could take a trait that allows for an additional 1d6 to be added to a check and have the 'flaw' give a -2 penalty instead (average on 2d6-2 is 5, so it probably wouldn't be too huge when dealing with minor checks, since you're still hitting 5 on average, but it'd be significant once anything harder needs to be rolled).

Edit: If you look over dandwiki's homebrew section, there're a lot of 'flaws' that can be adapted.

steelsmiter

2010-03-12, 01:55 AM

Pdandwiki's homebrew section

not quite sure what that is...

Also I sold all my DND books quite some time back, so since I didn't memorize any of UA's flaws, I'm screwed there.

I'm thinking that for skill ineptitude I'd rather have a huge drawback, like -1 dice. I wouldn't allow Attribute ineptitude but a skill that only has a maximum roll of 13 would be quite crippling.

Dust

2010-03-12, 03:09 AM

not quite sure what that is...
Here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/DnD_Flaws).

I'm thinking that for skill ineptitude I'd rather have a huge drawback, like -1 dice. I wouldn't allow Attribute ineptitude but a skill that only has a maximum roll of 13 would be quite crippling.
Without sounding as if I'm trying to discourage you, I suspect that you'd find the system encourages larger bonuses than it does penalties.
Were you to apply this Skill Ineptitude flaw to something you'd never use (Hi, Trade!) then consistantly getting results of 1-6 on this skill check hardly matter.
If you were to insist the flaw be applied to only skills players had...I don't know, invested points in, for example....then not only does it really go against the genre feel present in the rset of the book, but it's also incredibly easy to work around. Say the Skill Ineptitude flaw gives you a bonus shared ability as tradeoff, and a character is considering a Hume thief with bad eyesight, giving him one fewer dice to his Awareness. He quickly min-max balances this out by switching to a Viera instead for a flat +2 bonus, and picks up Favored Terrain or Knack to compensate. He has thus effectively 'bought off' his flaw; and personally, I'd rather have flat bonuses to skill checks than a variable number, anyway.
Same scenario, you apply it to a character's weapon skill? Dual Wield fixes that.

Just a few things to ponder as you work out the details.

steelsmiter

2010-03-12, 04:12 AM

meh... I didn't really look too seriously into it anyway, I will look at that link though.

steelsmiter

2010-03-13, 07:37 AM

You know... now that I think about it, if a player wants to work around the ineptitude by burning abilities on it, that's fine with me. The only thing to contend with here, is the fact that the skill ineptitude as presented is as you say... against the genre.

On to another issue though. I've seen that the link provides for a lot of fears. this flaw seems much easier to implement. If an opponent is using an object of your fear or is one, each round you have a 25% chance of being afflicted with the Fear Status effect.

Kuma

2010-03-13, 01:41 PM

I do like the system, my main gripe is how almost all weapons have the sme damage amount. I've been considering using the Returner's damage tables, but am not sure if that would tip the balance too much. what's your opinion Dust?

UserShadow7989

2010-03-16, 03:14 PM

A few things I noticed while thumbing through the system (metaphorically,of course). Having -10 (Shadow) Affiliation grants Immunity to Shadow, but a +10 (Holy) Affiliation lets you Absorb Holy. Is this intentional?

Next, I have a question about the Job Weapon and Armor Skills. Are you only allowed to put skill points into a Weapon or Armor Skill listed under your class, or can you put them in other Weapon or Armor Skills, but with a small penalty. If the latter, what's the penalty and where is the penalty stated?

This rule set is very slick and versatile, but seems to suffer from vagueness in areas. Make sure to clarify under the weapon skill section about the benefits, restrictions, and penalties, if any, there are involving the weapon skills, and when exactly they apply. Also take time to consider how any given ability interacts with any other given ability and make a ruling on that. I'm not saying go through and do every single one, just write out ones that are important.

Kobold-Bard

2010-03-16, 03:17 PM

A few things I noticed while thumbing through the system (metaphorically,of course). Having -10 (Shadow) Affiliation grants Immunity to Shadow, but a +10 (Holy) Affiliation lets you Absorb Holy. Is this intentional?...

I think it is, as a way of keeping people on the good track, or maybe good beats evil so good gets more benefits.

I could be wrong of course and it's simply a typo, but that's what I assumed.

UserShadow7989

2010-03-16, 03:22 PM

I think it is, as a way of keeping people on the good track, or maybe good beats evil so good gets more benefits.

I could be wrong of course and it's simply a typo, but that's what I assumed.

Bah. Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb.

Though in all seriousness, you do have a point.

Kobold-Bard

2010-03-16, 03:24 PM

Bah. Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb.

Though in all seriousness, you do have a point.

Good is dumb but evil is vain. It's a miracle either side ever gets anything done really :smalltongue:

Wreckingrocc

2010-03-16, 03:42 PM

Three comments:
1) Excellent work. I'm about to start a campaign with this system at school, and it looks like it will allow for little sessions nicely, provided that "Per session" is defined as "Per few sessions".
2) I love the weapon system. It's much easier to pick up than DnD on account of the standardized damage, and it also works for flavor reasons. Running into combat with a sharpened pen functioning as a Blindtouch Dagger is perfectly reasonable, and I like that a lot. The way special abilities scale with tier also works much better than DnD's bonus tradeoff system, which I have yet to see fail to confuse players new to the system. Please don't change it.
3) The paladin seems to have some build issues. They have virtually no use for Charisma, and yet it's one of their +15 Maxima. Perhaps adding something similar to Charismagic in addition to tweaking many of their abilities would help; alternatively, reducing the bonus to +10 or so and increasing Strength or Intelligence's cap would work wonders.

UserShadow7989

2010-03-16, 04:45 PM

Just noticed that the Bomb Core item isn't on the "Sample Adventuring Gear" table.

EDIT: And as a minor note that's been bugging me for a while, why can't you combine Healing with Area Effect in your limit break? Balance reasons?

Dust

2010-03-16, 05:11 PM

While I originally agreed that all weapons should have different damage amounts, I realized that it was in-keeping with the genre. While it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever in any other system for a giant, two-handed axe to deal the same amount as a dagger, it's perfectly normal in the FF universe.

The Bomb Core and the Armor/Weapon skills have been mentioned a few times now, and it'll certainly be fixed in the next update. There's a fair number of spots where my unintentional vagueness will cause problems.

The 'Holy is always mechanically better than Shadow' thing is intentional. The last thing that I wanted to see was a player realizing that going 'evil' would provide slightly better mechanical bonuses, at any time, for any reason. You can numbercrunch down almost any aspect, from the spells to the dragoon's wyvern, and Holy always slightly edges out its malicious counterpart.

We've discovered that Paladin is the hardest job to balance, and will certainly be tweaking abilities in the future to make more aspects of their damaging abilities run off CHA instead of STR, without forcing them to become MAD across 3 attributes.

Anyway, glad you like it.

Melamoto

2010-03-16, 05:59 PM

Personally, I would not use the "No xp at -10" rule. I might use it for a purely good campaign, but for mixed campaigns I'd allow exceptions, and for an evil/vs campaign, I would remove it altogether. It doesn't really provide an instant mechanical drawback, it simply makes it unplayable in the long run.

Dust

2010-03-16, 06:57 PM

I'd rather remove the alignment system altogether. We'll see how it goes.

Wreckingrocc

2010-03-16, 07:08 PM

Yeah, I'm not too big on alignment, though it does have some interesting things with vulnerability/weakness. Some other method to obtain those might be neat, though, or some abilities based on inherently Holy/Shadow classes.

Temotei

2010-03-16, 10:38 PM

UserShadow7989

2010-03-19, 01:14 AM

Bringing up the point User brought up, healing should really be affected by area effect. Remember Aeris? Limit break = healing to all in party. Why not include it? It's not like you get to use them often or anything. Healing is already pretty easy to come by anyways, with the prices of potions and such along with the white mages, blue mages, red mages, etc.

Come to think of it, that may be because of how cheap it would be to fully heal your entire party so easily. Maybe make it so you can only heal 50% HP and/or MP with Area Effect? Or cut the healing done in half when Area Effect is used?

Kobold-Bard

2010-03-19, 12:17 PM

Runic – Standard, Local.
The Red Mage uses their weapon as a sort of magical lightning rod, focusing a spell's own magic power into their body. Runic absorbs and negates the first spell cast in the Red Mage's presence, be it from friend or foe. Use of Runic lasts until the Red Mage either successfully absorbs a spell or makes another action. Summons cannot be captured by Runic, nor can Global spells. This ability may be used a number of times per session equal to the Red Mage’s VIT rating.

I have thus far failed to find any Global spells in the guide. Are they a plot-point or maybe something bosses can do? Or is this a misprint?

steelsmiter

2010-03-19, 01:52 PM

I think it was supposed to be local, like an un-destinied Ultima

Dust

2010-03-19, 06:04 PM

It is indeed a misprint and should read as Local spells.

steelsmiter

2010-03-19, 06:41 PM

it would suck if you got your Ultima torn up by runic!

On another topic, just out of curiosity, in terms of Animal Companion, what is the default assumption for the Wyvern build?

Dust

2010-03-19, 08:05 PM

That's an interesting question.
I left it rather open-ended and didn't make a reference to the Animal Companion shared ability intentionally, but enough people have asked if they can 'upgrade' their dragon companion that both abilities have been reworked.

They were not mean to be connected, and so I cannot provide a satisfacory answer. If you insist, I suppose I would have to say that;

A newly-hatched wyvern is 7 points. (Loyal, Strange Attack, Flying)
A moderately-sized wyvern is 12 points. (Loyal, Strange Attack, Flying, Mount)
A fully-grown wyvern is 14 points. (Loyal, Strange Attack, Flying, Mount, Large)

steelsmiter

2010-03-19, 08:23 PM

so what about the attacking on the dragoon's critical hits?

Dust

2010-03-19, 08:56 PM

You could classify it as a Strange Attack, but I didn't. As already stated, the abilities were never meant to 'overlap' the way most people view it.

The Dragoon's innate ability was the result of hours of spreadsheet calculations trying designed to give them enormous critical hits when using a twohanded weapon, attempting to:
a) Differentiate them from other melee Jobs
b) Balance their damage to be on par with (or close to) two-weapon fighting

The concept for the additional damage being from a wyvern companion was added later, after recieving numerous suggestions for exactly that. It was apparantly one of the Job's most beloved features in Final Fantasy 11, and the combination of damage-balancing and flavor wasn't as smoothed as I hoped.

UserShadow7989

2010-03-20, 12:16 AM

One thing I've just noticed. Freeze and Nuke are both 4th level Black Magic spells, require the same number of spells to be learned, have the same MP costs, and do the same amount of damage. The only notable difference at a glance is that Freeze is an Ice Element spell and Nuke a Fire Element spell. Why is it that Nuke can be used at Long Range as well, while Freeze gains no other benefits?

Another thing I noticed while making some characters for fun. The Transformation Limit Break effect seems to have no listed benefits/weaknesses. Are they to be discussed with/determined by the DM, or is it there strictly for flavor?

imp_fireball

2010-03-20, 02:32 AM

The game system, as a whole, requires the player to know too much about the Final Fantasy world beforehand.

There's a problem with this point. If you play final fantasy tabletop, chances are you are nerd enough to know about the final fantasy universe - nay, dare I say, know even too much about the final fantasy universe.

It's like a prerequisite to being human. :smalleek:

steelsmiter

2010-03-20, 12:37 PM

Another thing I noticed while making some characters for fun. The Transformation Limit Break effect seems to have no listed benefits/weaknesses. Are they to be discussed with/determined by the DM, or is it there strictly for flavor?

I think that the transformation limit break gives you a creature subtype similar to those found in the Blue Mage Mutations, which are explained somewhat... look on page 27

You could classify it as a Strange Attack, but I didn't. As already stated, the abilities were never meant to 'overlap' the way most people view it.

well... ok, but I've got a player that wants to have "No Wyvern Companion" as their dragoon flaw, and the only way I can really see doing that is to say that any abilities he'd get later would work with animal companion but he'd never get the critical bonus from the Wyvern. An animal companion would have its own attribute which it would use to determine damage, and it would boil down to being able to attack or command the animal, either of which would take a standard action...

of course the animal companion would not be subject to the negative effects of the intensified companionship either...

Is there anything wrong with these assumptions?

Maerok

2010-03-20, 01:05 PM

This is some pretty sweet stuff. How long have you been working on this for?

spaceLem

2010-03-20, 06:45 PM

I seriously like this game! It uses my favourite dice mechanic, is light and yet has the flavour that many rules-light games lack, it has quirky stuff (always good), and nice art (even if it comes from official sources, be careful there!).

It's a bit rough in places (some typos), and the setting needs a bit of tinkering, but it does capture the feel of FF (at least the early games that I've played). Unfortunately I've only been able to read it on my phone, and the text is too small, but I guess that's not a huge issue (one of the reasons I prefer HTML over PDF). I think the only major thing I'd change is the stats, as I recall will and wisdom as being important (and it makes it less like D&D, not that I dislike that particular series of games).

Thanks and well done!

UserShadow7989

2010-03-20, 08:22 PM

I think that the transformation limit break gives you a creature subtype similar to those found in the Blue Mage Mutations, which are explained somewhat... look on page 27

I see it now. I'd like that to be a bit clearer (such as a "See pg.27 for more info" under Transformation), and point out that even if that's assumed the Transformation offers the choice of "Abnormal", which has no listed benefits even under the Blue Mage's Mutations (of which it is not a proper choice).

I love this system. I've already made 4 characters (not counting the character I'm using, who makes 5) of entirely different backgrounds and abilities. Despite the simplicity of the mechanics, there's plenty of room for creativity. A wonderful job.

Edit: Few questions I want to rapid fire out on the subject of Limit Breaks:
How long do status errors/benefits provided by the Status Effect Limit Break effect last?
Can you make a Limit Break that attack a target and provides benefits to an ally at the same time?
In regards to the above, is there any combination of "Hurt Enemy/Status Effect Enemy/Heal Ally/Heal Self/Positive Status Effect Self or Ally/Transform Self/Transform Ally/Transform Enemy/whatever" that isn't allowed?
If using the benefits allies version of Stylish and the Self Only Refund, does the benefit only help you?
In extension, how does Self Only work with the "harms enemies" version of Stylish?
When making the roll to inflict a status effect with the Status Effect Limit Break effect, is the attack role against the creature's EVA? (This last one is probably a stupid question, but I just want to double check.)

Dust

2010-03-20, 10:19 PM

I've been working on this pretty steadily for about a year and a half. It was originally not much more than page and pages of mathematical spreadsheets for some fantasy-based rpg that I never got around to doing, then played The Returners' FFRPG and the experience left a foul taste in my mouth. Later discovering the official forums were no longer operational, I managed to contact one of the creators of the system who gave me his blessing in 'combining' the two projects.

It wouldn't have taken so long if it wasn't for the art. Once the document broke a hundred pages I realized I needed some graphics to spice it up. Contacting random deviantart users as well as people from a local organization was the starting point, and I began obtaining paid omissions for as cheaply as I could go.

My direct involvement started to lessen as more and more and more playtesters and helpful friends got involved, and there was a good three-month period where I didn't even see some of the changes that were being made. :tongue:

Thanks for the appreciative thoughts, Lem!

And some rapid-fire answers;

Like almost all status effects, those granted/inflicted via Limit Breaks have a duration of 'several rounds.' I realize this doesn't answer your question whatsoever, and I also know that I'm going to have to sit down and devise rules for this...roughly several months ago. It's simply been the biggest hurdle so far, and I have yet to come up with a solution that works smoothly and simply. It's by far the largest issue still floating around.

Certainly. This is the main reason I chose to go with the point-buy system as opposed to something more concrete for Limit Breaks. Unless you intentionally restrict yourself to scrape up a few extra points, the system works BEST when it is used to replicate attacks that are little more complicated in scope.
You can perform beneficial or damaging effects in conjunction, and you can also use them in any order. Take Kefka's monster Limit Break for example, where he forced the party to have an elemental weakness, exploits that weakness with magical damage, and then restores his own MP.

Stylish will need to be clarified with which other aspects it cannot be combined with. For the time being, GMs will simply have to use their best judgement. I'd allow the beneficial bonuses to apply to yourself with Self-Only.

Yes. Attack rolls are made against the enemy's EVA score.

UserShadow7989

2010-03-20, 11:30 PM

And some rapid-fire answers;

Like almost all status effects, those granted/inflicted via Limit Breaks have a duration of 'several rounds.' I realize this doesn't answer your question whatsoever, and I also know that I'm going to have to sit down and devise rules for this...roughly several months ago. It's simply been the biggest hurdle so far, and I have yet to come up with a solution that works smoothly and simply. It's by far the largest issue still floating around.

Certainly. This is the main reason I chose to go with the point-buy system as opposed to something more concrete for Limit Breaks. Unless you intentionally restrict yourself to scrape up a few extra points, the system works BEST when it is used to replicate attacks that are little more complicated in scope.
You can perform beneficial or damaging effects in conjunction, and you can also use them in any order. Take Kefka's monster Limit Break for example, where he forced the party to have an elemental weakness, exploits that weakness with magical damage, and then restores his own MP.

Stylish will need to be clarified with which other aspects it cannot be combined with. For the time being, GMs will simply have to use their best judgement. I'd allow the beneficial bonuses to apply to yourself with Self-Only.

Yes. Attack rolls are made against the enemy's EVA score.

Thanks for the answers. For Status Errors, how about they last for a number of rounds equal to the Charisma Rating of the caster/inflicter? Another possibility is to make them last a number of rounds equal to how much they failed the resistance check by (Getting a 7 on resistible 11 lasts for 4 rounds).

Kobold-Bard

2010-03-21, 05:16 PM

Tiny little thing because I find picking nits oddly satisfying.

The stats in the char-gen rules go Str, Vit, Dex, Int, Cha.
However the stats in the class entries go Str, Dex, Vit, Int, Cha.

As I said its a really tiny thing, but one of my future players got confused and mixed up her maximums for Vit and Dex. Mentioning only for completeness' sake.

Thanks for the answer on Runic.

Tackyhillbillu

2010-03-21, 05:36 PM

Dust, I have a suggestion. Put Impale behind High Jump in the ability progression. My Dragoon with Jump, Dragon's Crest, and Impale is... well, he just did 149 damage, and has 2 attacks left to go.

Temotei

2010-03-21, 05:38 PM

Tackyhillbillu

2010-03-21, 05:45 PM

And he's level one.

An important qualifier. Yeah, he is Level 1.

Dust

2010-03-21, 07:26 PM

Tackyhillbillu

2010-03-21, 07:27 PM

Not saying it isn't barrels of fun, but for the sake of game balence, probably a good idea.

Also, the notion of facing an Enemy Dragoon scares the Crap out of me currently.

spaceLem

2010-03-21, 07:32 PM

It wouldn't have taken so long if it wasn't for the art. Once the document broke a hundred pages I realized I needed some graphics to spice it up. My fiance volunteered to start contacting random deviantart users as well as people from a local organization, and begun obtaining paid comissions for as cheaply as I could go.

Oops! Sorry, I thought some of those were official artwork :smallredface:
Even better!

Dust

2010-03-22, 04:16 AM

Oops! Sorry, I thought some of those were official artwork :smallredface:
Even better!
While I'm not attempting to play loose and fast with copyright laws, even with a small fan project like this, some of the images used (such as in the bestiary) were taken from the Final Fantasy wikipedia site. I decided (probably dangerously so) to tentatively assume they were under the GFDL, but plan on replacing them all as soon as my bank account permits it. :smallbiggrin:

steelsmiter

2010-03-22, 11:21 PM

Dust, I have a suggestion. Put Impale behind High Jump in the ability progression. My Dragoon with Jump, Dragon's Crest, and Impale is... well, he just did 149 damage, and has 2 attacks left to go.

That explains why so many of my people want to play dragoons, I had 2 enter, one has left for IRL stuff, and a third is making a character right now

Deathdarken

2010-03-23, 05:11 PM

this is so cool I might have to get a group together for this

Deathdarken

2010-04-01, 01:19 PM

the more I look at your system the more I think this would work better then a d20/D and D 4.0 for a bleach(the anime) system I'm making, with your system from what I see you can deal a ton of damage, while many characters are able to keep a ton of damage from being done mind if I try to use this for my system I feel it will work much easier and still do what I wanted for the shikia and bonkai(if you don't know what I'm talking about message me and you should start watching the show) to use a point system and this would work well for all the abilities I have and I could keep it simple and vague at times

steelsmiter

2010-04-02, 10:49 PM

The advantage it has over BESM Tristat is that it has abilities pre made. You don't have to make them up as you go along

Tacit

2010-04-15, 12:54 PM

"I just googled my own name because I was bored, and found this. Nice! I agree there was too much math in the old FFRPG, something I always struggled against. We had too many math majors who always wanted big numbers just because that’s the way the console games ran. Yeesh! Big numbers suck for table top gaming."

- Scott Tengelin, talking about the FF2d6 on an independent review site

Dust

2010-04-15, 12:58 PM

Scott's good people, though I'm not sure that deserves a necro-bump.

This project is still alive and well, though as I said there won't be any updates to the core book for many months yet. Feel free to PM me with any problems you bump into other than the ones already addressed here.

Sciath

2010-05-09, 08:06 PM

Limit Break Problem:

Instant Death x2 + Area of effect + Stylish x5 = 3rd level limit break "I Win" Button.

Temotei

2010-05-09, 08:56 PM

Limit Break Problem:

Instant Death x2 + Area of effect + Stylish x5 = 3rd level limit break "I Win" Button.

Death attack x2 = 20
Area of effect = 5
Stylish x5 = 15 (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5)

Total: 40

You never get a limit break with forty points available.

Even then, you have to have at most 50% of your hit points and get a critical success or you have to spend three destiny points.

Deathdarken

2010-05-09, 09:08 PM

Sciath

2010-05-09, 09:10 PM

Death attack x2 = 20
Area of effect = 5
Stylish x5 = 15 (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5)

Total: 40

You never get a limit break with forty points available.

Even then, you have to have at most 50% of your hit points and get a critical success or you have to spend three destiny points.

Fighter gets 40 points for its lvl 3 LB, with one of its abilities. And even without stylish, that's a 25-point instant victory that anyone can have as their L3 limit break. use it on a boss and you get back the destiny points spent in order to instantly initialize it at the battle's start. As a DM, even with a super-heroic, out-of-this-world epic style of play like that which is encouraged by this engine, I still wouldn't allow an "all foes instantly die, no saves, no resists" occurance except on a 1/160,000 chance. (i.e. roll consecutive 1d20's which come up 20,20,20,20.) That said, the ability to have that happen at will is just game-breakingly ludicrous.

It would seem more acceptable if Instant death cost 15 instead of 10, and another 20 if taken a second time. Also, taking it a second time would reduce an enemy by 90% of its current. (allow an attack roll, if critical, then instant death occurs) This way, one could take 5 points worth of flaws in their L3 LB in exchange for a Godly, unstoppable version of Demi.

Temotei

2010-05-09, 09:52 PM

at will

I'm not arguing that it's darn powerful, but you still need to have specific conditions met. It's not like you're going to get destiny points easily either. Bosses don't just pop up out of nowhere to refill the hero's "destiny pool."

That said, raising the cost to fifteen wouldn't be a bad design decision. Raising the cost of the second purchase to twenty wouldn't be bad either, even if you left the original cost at ten.

Sciath

2010-05-09, 10:19 PM

I'm not arguing that it's darn powerful, but you still need to have specific conditions met. It's not like you're going to get destiny points easily either. Bosses don't just pop up out of nowhere to refill the hero's "destiny pool."

That said, raising the cost to fifteen wouldn't be a bad design decision. Raising the cost of the second purchase to twenty wouldn't be bad either, even if you left the original cost at ten.

Yup, That's all I'm saying, really. Instant Death is the ridiculously unachievable Holy Grail of offensive abilities in any game medium, the cost has got to match, or else the reward need be less.

So long as an AOE instant death is impossible and an AOE Ultra-Demi only marginally plausible, I think it would be balanced.

It's totally cool for the Group's token Grizzled-Chain-Smoking-Badass character to witness the Lovable, Bubbly, Bottomless-Fountain-of-Morale girl being mortally wounded by BBEG, that he might shed a single manly tear and respond by completely flipping his sh*t, delivering an Army-Erasing Horror-storm of righteous decapitations, leaving BBEG staggered and ready for the obligatory Final Boss Fight (stage 2). However...

I just wouldn't abide one player stealing the show with the capacity to push the big red button and have BBEG end up like that mook from Scanners.

There's a fine line between the two, but so long as any Player-accessible capacity for instant death is accompanied inseparably by a horrific flaw, (Ex. Random Target-Friend/Foe, or Ability for Boss to resist effect.) or is dialed back to instant near-death to allow for fewer/no counterbalancing quirks/flaws, then a sweet-ass Limit Break like that wouldn't kill the game, really.

Temotei

2010-05-09, 10:25 PM

Yup, That's all I'm saying, really. Instant Death is the ridiculously unachievable Holy Grail of offensive abilities in any game medium, the cost has got to match, or else the reward need be less.

So long as an AOE instant death is impossible and an AOE Ultra-Demi only marginally plausible, I think it would be balanced.

It's totally cool for the Group's token Grizzled-Chain-Smoking-Badass character to witness the Lovable, Bubbly, Bottomless-Fountain-of-Morale girl being mortally wounded by BBEG, that he might shed a single manly tear and respond by completely flipping his sh*t, delivering an Army-Erasing Horror-storm of righteous decapitations, leaving BBEG staggered and ready for the obligatory Final Boss Fight (stage 2). However...

I just wouldn't abide one player stealing the show with the capacity to push the big red button and have BBEG end up like that mook from Scanners.

There's a fine line between the two, but so long as any Player-accessible capacity for instant death is accompanied inseparably by a horrific flaw, (Ex. Random Target-Friend/Foe, or Ability for Boss to resist effect.) or is dialed back to instant near-death to allow for fewer/no counterbalancing quirks/flaws, then a sweet-ass Limit Break like that wouldn't kill the game, really.

Hehe...self only.