Forgetful DM [3.5]

[sparkyinbozo]

Hey guys, I'd appreciate some advice on how to handle this situation.

I've been playing with the same group of people for a while now and love our DM; he's creative, fun, and a great person to hang out with. Now here's the "but"...but he's very forgetful per the rules, esp. with spells and feats. For example, he'll forget that checks are needed for dispelling, that creatures were summoned, or what effects casting defensively has and he'll then make up new rules instead.

If it isn't important, I usually ignore the lapses, but in a big battle it's a lot more important. I hate to correct him (usu. by saying something like "I think that keeps me from provoking an attack of opportunity") and require a hunt through the PH, but I don't really know how else to handle it. Has anyone else had this happen or any advice?

[Tyndmyr]

I have to do this with one guy who always confuses energy resistance and DR. Specifically, he thinks DR applies to everything. Very annoying, since we've had this argument like ten times now...other players have it memorized.

I don't have a great way to make someone else stop being forgetful, but if anyone has a solution, I'd love to hear it.


Oh, for summoned creatures...using an init board or stack helps. We fold bits of cardstock with the names scribbled on them, and set them atop the DM screen in init order. That at least generally prevents skipped turns.

[Sliver]

Co-DM or hire a rule-lawyer to make sure the ruling is correct?

There is a lot of things to think about and it is easy to get overwhelmed if one lacks experience. I, for one, have a solid grasp of the rules and all, but have little experience DMing RL so I have trouble keeping track of it all, as I didn't yet find my comfortable zone.

I don't think one should feel bad about needing to correct his DM, unless the DM specifically says he doesn't care about following the rules and doesn't want to be corrected.

[Darrin]

Now here's the "but"...but he's very forgetful per the rules, esp. with spells and feats. For example, he'll forget that checks are needed for dispelling, that creatures were summoned, or what effects casting defensively has and he'll then make up new rules instead.

If it isn't important, I usually ignore the lapses, but in a big battle it's a lot more important. I hate to correct him (usu. by saying something like "I think that keeps me from provoking an attack of opportunity") and require a hunt through the PH, but I don't really know how else to handle it.

Looking things up in the book is the #3 thing that slows down the game (Monty Python Quotefest and Ordering Pizza are #1 and #2). This is one of my worst DM habits, and I've worked very hard to cut it down to a minimum.

99 times out of 100, the whole game is better off if the DM makes a snap judgement and moves the game along. For the most part, it doesn't matter if the ruling is wrong so long as everybody at the table is happy enough to move forward. After the game, you can nitpick over the rules, and the DM can adjust things for next session. The most important thing is to keep the game moving so you can get to the Exciting Bits quickly. Looking through books is not an Exciting Bit.

Of course, each DM and each group is going to be different. Your mileage may vary.

[sparkyinbozo]

Co-DM or hire a rule-layer to make sure the ruling is correct?

That's a good idea, like a combat DM assistant in this case. I was considering to offer to help with the "technical" aspects of combat. I'm relatively new, but I guess I have a good head for rules laywering. :smallbiggrin:

[Evard]

I vote for making him a list of things that he tends to forget and give it to him. Make sure he knows you don't hate him for his memory lapses just that during big battles it can be bad for everyone (show him your post)

[Flaming Nun]

Looking things up in the book is the #3 thing that slows down the game

I use to have the SRD open on a laptop - that made looking up rules only a Ctrl+F away.

[valadil]

When I GM I appoint a rules lawyer to keep me in line. I can understand why other GMs aren't comfortable with this though.

My suggestion would be to ask him how he would like you to handle it. Explain that you get frustrated when you make assumptions based on rules and then he ignores those rules.

One trick I've been using is I reserve the first couple pages of my notes for rules. Any rules that I have to look up more than once get copied down here. Not only does it give me one stop shopping for rules lookups, just the act of doing this helps me remember the rules.

[Zincorium]

99 times out of 100, the whole game is better off if the DM makes a snap judgement and moves the game along. For the most part, it doesn't matter if the ruling is wrong so long as everybody at the table is happy enough to move forward.

The second sentence here is why I think the percentage in the first is off. A wrong ruling isn't necessarily a BAD ruling- but if the DM is unable to remember what the rule is, the acumen to make a good ruling on the spot is usually too much to ask.

My personal rule of thumb is that if the rule is unknown or clear, don't come down against the PCs. If I don't know what the rules are for firing ranged weapons underwater are (and I don't), assigning a -10 penalty seems sensible, but -4 or even -2 would be better for the game- I can always let them know the actual penalty is higher if I find it to be so later. I also try to get people to look up the relevant rules for something they plan to do while it isn't their turn.

As a player, I do expect some degree of predictability on the DM's part. I feel I have the right to know what rules I am expected to play by, and if they differ from the accepted default, how that affects things.

As I've only had a problem with that expectation twice, ever, It seems pretty reasonable.

[Dimers]

My advice as a professional trained in two methodologies of information organization:

The DM can add tabs to frequently-accessed pages in the relevant books, with a one- or two-word description of the topic on the page (e.g. "Dispel", "AoO"). Stickynotes are okay, but it'd be better to buy tabs made for this from an office supply store (they're more durable and usually come in multiple colors per pack). This works for up to about ten or twelve topics per book, maybe a few more if they're color-coded by subtopic; beyond that, the tabs get visually distracting rather than easily searchable. Tabbing books cuts down on hunting time, but it also serves as a frequent reminder to the DM of which topics it is that he often gets confused about. And that means he's more likely to try looking up the info instead of just winging it! The downside of this trick is that it messes up careful and neat storage of the tabbed book, and tabs will sometimes have to be replaced when they get squished. Also, you'll need the DM's 'buy-in', so be sure to present it as a way to ease his frustration while avoiding any "if you didn't suck with rules, we wouldn't have to do this". :smallwink:

Alternatively, print out separate index cards with the relevant text on them. They really still need tabs for efficient searching, they require considerably more work to start, and they strike me as more likely to feel insulting to a DM, but they're faster and easier to use than a book.

[Otodetu]

Having a laptop as a dm is almost a must have tool, it enables you to use the d20srd and increases your dm power to over 9000.

Do the dm in question have that?

[Quietus]

Having a laptop as a dm is almost a must have tool, it enables you to use the d20srd and increases your dm power to over 9000.

Do the dm in question have that?

Not always a must have. Some DMs are rule lawyers themselves.

[Hawriel]

Ive been a forgetful DM and player. I suggest giving an honest reminder when some thing sizable is fortotten. Like how dispel magic works, or of a spell has a save check or not. If its somthing small that is not really effecting the game as a whole, keep quiet and remind the DM later.

Also go out and by a DM screen with all the rules printed in it and give it to your DM.

[shadow_archmagi]

As a player, I'd be upset if I were taking damage or having my buffs dispelled without a save, or finding out that the DM decided to apply DR to spells, then got confused about how DR works and applied the DR 5 to every individual die (and forgot the minimum one damage rule), making my fireball's 10d6 into a spell that deals anywhere from 10 damage to -50.

[Zincorium]

Not always a must have. Some DMs are rule lawyers themselves.

The DM being a rules lawyer is mostly irrelevant, as they have rule 0 at all times. It just means you know exactly what rules they're enforcing ahead of time.

If your point is that they are annoying, then it's mostly the fact that they're willing to annoy you that's the problem. Rules lawyers that are unwilling to ruin a game to prove themselves right are hard to spot.

[graeylin]

when possible, work the rule/explanation into the description of what you are doing...

"I take a 5 foot step to the right of the Balrog, in order to avoid giving it an attack of opportunity against me. Instead of defending myself with my sword, I put both hands on my shield, and invoke the spell resistance scroll i have placed there. That gives me a +4 against evil creatures, which this thing seems to be, and let's me get half damage to any reflex saves that may be coming"

"I use sleight of hand to reach under the table, which lets me grab without notice on a roll of 22 the packet left for me there. "

[DabblerWizard]

As a DM I don't like being bogged down by rule searches in the middle of a gaming session. I'll make a quick, reasonable decision to move the game along, and then look the rule up afterward. I then mention my findings to my players the next session.

The act of looking rules up generally helps me remember them after the first or second time I read them.

If there's a rule I'm not remembering, or an obscure rule I plan on implementing in an encounter, like the 4e underwater swimming rule (which uses athletics checks by the way), I'll make a page of rules notes, and reference them right before the session starts.


As far as dealing with another DM, I would suggest first figuring out whether he wants your help. He may not be concerned about his forgetfulness; he may not be aware that the behavior is bothersome to his players; he may just not care.

In all of those instances, offering to help won't get you very far, but at least you'll know his stance. From that point, you'll have to decide whether you want to put up with it or not.

A DM's embarrassment can hinder their ability to get help from their players. He may feel that it's his obligation to know the rules well, and if his players are pointing these rules out to him, then clearly he's "failing" or not doing his job. This might be good to keep in mind.

If he is receptive, great. Suggest changes like the ones suggested prior to this post. Keep a list of frequently-forgotten rules; have a willing rules lawyer act as his rules parrot: regularly stating the proper mechanics of a situation (while still leaving it up to the DM to decide how he wants to run the rules).

[AslanCross]

I've been DMing for 3 years and I STILL forget that certain monsters are on the initiative order. It usually helps that I roll initiative BEFORE combat and write it all down in order so that I don't have to recall it during the game.

I still look up the rules if I forget what something does, but typically I'm able to second-guess what my players are going to do and look it up before the game.

Things that often get forgotten and looked up are bookmarked in my PHB and other sourcebooks.

EDIT: Having my laptop open helps as well, especially when my monsters use certain special abilities. Running a dragon battle? The Movement in 3 Dimensions page is open. Running undead? The rule citation on Turn Undead is open.

Heck, when I have a monster that uses a certain special attack, sometimes the entire rule is summarized in the statblock. For example:

High Sword Low Axe +12 longsword (1d8+4) and +12 handaxe (1d6+2) and trip (+4) and +12 longsword (1d8+4).

[Kelb_Panthera]

For basic rules like grappling and casting-defensively, I can't offer much help. As a DM I have my players make a note of what book and page number each of their abilities are on. This makes looking things up go much, much faster since you've got the exact location of the rules you need right there in front of you. The MM's glossary is also pretty helpful for common abilities like DR and energy resistance.

[Tyndmyr]

Yeah, that's true. Players are responsible for knowing the rules pertaining to their characters. The DM has enough on his plate as it is, knowing your character inside and out is always a good idea.

I wouldn't worry about the odd correction unless he seems annoyed by it, too. D&D has a *ton* of rules. Very, very few people know them all.

Lastly, as a DM, try to make sure you have the rules straight beforehand for special things...Im holding off on a naval encounter until Stormwrack comes in, for example.

[ericgrau]

Sig. Also, yeah, players should get it too.

[Grommen]

Yeah, that's true. Players are responsible for knowing the rules pertaining to their characters. The DM has enough on his plate as it is, knowing your character inside and out is always a good idea.

I wouldn't worry about the odd correction unless he seems annoyed by it, too. D&D has a *ton* of rules. Very, very few people know them all.

Lastly, as a DM, try to make sure you have the rules straight beforehand for special things...Im holding off on a naval encounter until Stormwrack comes in, for example.

Made worse by the fact that I have 5 editions of D&D in my skull (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3.5, pathfinder), 3 editions of Shadowrun, 2 of the D6 Star Wars, Magic, Warhammer 40K, Battle Tech, Mechwarrior, Vampire, Go Fish, and Monopoly..

You never know what version of Fireball I might pull out of my butt at any given time...(now is that 20d6 or just 8Deadly on the damage? And you need to roll your willpower and make 30 successes to wash that or take a Light Stun and die) :smallsigh:

I take a lot of detailed notes for GM'ing, and when I get to a new thing that I don't know or I think I'll forget I put it in the notes. Usually the fact that I put them down on paper (ok Word file) I remember them.

If I don't or the DM of that day does not remember something we have a person not involved in the battle (or on another initiative count) look it up if I can't come to a general concensious on the rule in question. I'm more inclined to use my experience as a GM of 20 years to make something simple up on the spot than brake open a book.

That said I really like the PDF I have for Pathfinder, it's word searchable, so all I have to do is type in a spell, condition, class etc, and wala! The information I seek is at my fingers in seconds.

With your forgettful DM if he is open too it. Make him some notes, or help him make his own. You will both learn a lot more about the game that way and it will make the games go faster and better.