Wizards weakness?

[Origomar]

Im sure theres more to this than i know, but couldnt someone just simply pickpocket or sunder a wizards book then later that night he would have nothing to study from and would lose all of his spells?(or atleast the ones he used up)

[The Dark Fiddler]

Downside: you have one very pissed off player.

[Ashram]

A fighter in a surprise round. >.>

[Origomar]

Downside: you have one very pissed off player.

Meh if the player was bein a jerk(or his "character" was) an no one wanted to mess with the all powerful wizard/opprestigeclass/ect. just saying this could be a possible solution.

[Yuki Akuma]

Sure.

Then the player of the wizard throws dice at you for screwing him over arbitrarily.

[sonofzeal]

Er..... you could, but you'd have to be a jerk to actually do it.

Similarly, you could steal the Fighter's sword, or the Cleric's holy symbol. The Wizard is not particularly more vulnerable here than they are - less, because he can stow the book in relative safety for 95% of the day.

[JaronK]

And I don't know about you, but when I play a Wizard I'm actually very careful with my spellbook and component pouch. Backup pouches are cheap, and I actually do just keep a second book that's full of explosive runes. I hide my real book in extradimensional space and cuddle up with my fake book when I go to sleep for the night. If some fool steals it, well, I'll find out when he explodes.

Also, I tend to sleep in very secure locations, such as inside a Rope Trick.

JaronK

[Origomar]

I was more thinking of how there are all these threads about wizards being supreme and that got me thinking. not that i would actually do it.

[mostlyharmful]

beyound a certain point wizards spellbooks can/are insanely well defended and it gets to be an easier job to just job the mage seeing as how this is their most important possesion and in 3.5 stuff makes up a good whack of a PCs power. Secret Page also makes copies hiden all over the damn place free.

[Yuki Akuma]

I was more thinking of how there are all these threads about wizards being supreme and that got me thinking. not that i would actually do it.

Wizards are also supremely paranoid and masters of hiding and securing small spellbook-sized objects.

They also keep their main spellbooks (trust me, any wizard past around tenth level will have run out of space by then) at home and carry a 'workbook' with their most often-used spells when they go adventuring.

[oxybe]

wait, you mean you know wizards who actually walk around with those big tomes in hand and not stored away in some extradimentional space?

i don't know about other people, but my characters usually have a bag of holding tied to some twine around their neck and tucked inside their shirt or the old "hat of holding" trick, a normal hat with bag of holding sewn/glued inside of it. it's VERY hard to pickpocket since you tend to notice someone sticking their hands up your shirt or around your neck. cutpurses were called that because the purse is traditionally on the outside hanging, so it was easier to cut the bottom and get the goods before pockets were invented. the few things my pcs have in their pockets/change purse are a few copper and maybe a silver to two... spare change i don't mind going missing.

sundering the book requires that the wizard have it on hand. since the book is only needed for study then can be put away, it requires a VERY timely surprise to catch that book and sunder it.

i would say that a wizard who gets his tome nicked or chopped probably deserves it for being so loose with security, but no player deserves to have his character nerfed to nothing, even a jerk. you just tell jerks not to come by next week, that's all.

[Origomar]

Wizards are also supremely paranoid and masters of hiding and securing small spellbook-sized objects.

They also keep their main spellbooks (trust me, any wizard past around tenth level will have run out of space by then) at home and carry a 'workbook' with their most often-used spells when they go adventuring.

Im not saying it wouldnt be a challenge, but surely a experienced thief could pullit off.


Edit: and i dont neccesarily mean a PC, there could be a powerful wizard npc that its easier to burn the book than to face them head on.

[Evard]

The problem is being able to... A good wizard's spell book will be enchanted and plus there are things like wands that can screw over anyone attacking the wizard. Fighter has magical items to help? So does the wizard. Even then you would probably need minimum 2 non magic users to get this done. 1 to do the deed and the other to make sure the wizard doesn't pull something right after (grapple).

Also if the Wizard already prepared his/her spells then it wont matter if the book is destroyed... cause you have a mad wizard with the ability to destroy you. This means you would have to keep track of all the spells the wizard knows and used (and pray he doesn't have extra spells from feats and stuff).

Of course the classes were made to fight NPC/Monsters/Deities/other things not other classes

*note*If you have a problem with a character deal with it outside of the game.

Edit: npc wizard? solution pc wizard/sorcerer

[chiasaur11]

Im not saying it wouldnt be a challenge, but surely a experienced thief could pullit off.

Thieves that could do it:

Thief. The Grey Mouser. Conan.

Thieves that could not:

See thieves not on above list.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Im not saying it wouldnt be a challenge, but surely a experienced thief could pullit off.Leomund's Secret Chest. And then cut open your palm/arm and slip the focus inside. Get a healing spell. How, exactly, could you snag that?

[Optimystik]

If you start targeting PC spellbooks, you might as well just tell your players "you can't be a wizard, be a sorcerer or beguiler instead."

[Eldariel]

If you start targeting PC spellbooks, you might as well just tell your players "you can't be a wizard, be a sorcerer or beguiler instead."

Rather, you're telling them "Spellbooks are valuable. Keep them at least as secure as your magic items. Preferably more-so since ruffians have an easier time identifying Spellbooks."

[Origomar]

Leomund's Secret Chest. And then cut open your palm/arm and slip the focus inside. Get a healing spell. How, exactly, could you snag that?

I beleive the obvious answer is to cut their arm off in their sleep :p

[Alejandro]

I think that if a wizard gets to kill his enemies instantly with only a failed saving throw, his spellbook is fair game to his enemies if they can do it.

[alisbin]

surprise attack by rogues/anything with sneak/death attack, preferably at night. any wizard will likely have blown most of his spells the day before. even a high level wizard probably can't take more then 1 sneak attack from a vaguely equivalent rogue, gang 3 or 4 slightly lower level rogues (say wizard level -2 or -3) on him and goodbye wizard. really any attack that takes advantage of a wizard that is not prepared. epic levels kinda bone this (reflect seed) though.

oh also antimagic fields.

[jmbrown]

Alternatively you could wait in the shadows until the wizard puts down his spellbook for whatever reason and then fireball it. A spellbook isn't a magic item and in this case it's "unoccupied."

Of course, spell books are practically glued to a wizard's fingers for this reason.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

surprise attack by rogues/anything with sneak/death attack, preferably at night. any wizard will likely have blown most of his spells the day before. even a high level wizard probably can't take more then 1 sneak attack from a vaguely equivalent rogue, gang 3 or 4 slightly lower level rogues (say wizard level -2 or -3) on him and goodbye wizard. really any attack that takes advantage of a wizard that is not prepared. epic levels kinda bone this (reflect seed) though.

oh also antimagic fields.Get into a Rope Trick with several lower-level Rogues? I also fail to see how that makes a Wizard any more vulnerable than the Fighter.

Yes, you can cut off the arm that's got the Secret Chest in it, but that's certainly no more vulnerable than the Fighter's throat.

Edit@ above: It goes from hands to chest directly. That breaks LoE.

[JaronK]

Why is this Wizard sleeping somewhere where that could happen? By level 5 I'm sleeping in Extended Rope Tricks (via a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend), so no one's going to ambush me, ever.

JaronK

[Yuki Akuma]

surprise attack by rogues/anything with sneak/death attack, preferably at night. any wizard will likely have blown most of his spells the day before. even a high level wizard probably can't take more then 1 sneak attack from a vaguely equivalent rogue, gang 3 or 4 slightly lower level rogues (say wizard level -2 or -3) on him and goodbye wizard. really any attack that takes advantage of a wizard that is not prepared. epic levels kinda bone this (reflect seed) though.

oh also antimagic fields.

Alarm. Rope Trick.

Antimagic field is a self-targetting spell, so they'd need to be able to afford a staff of it or something.

[Tyndmyr]

Im not saying it wouldnt be a challenge, but surely a experienced thief could pullit off.


Edit: and i dont neccesarily mean a PC, there could be a powerful wizard npc that its easier to burn the book than to face them head on.

Well, when adventuring, beyond very early levels, I sleep in Rope Tricks. There's really no reason not to. Anything that could possibly bother me would be just as dangerous otherwise....and very few things can bother me.

Thus, I study spells while in my rope trick. My handy haversack contains a great many items. Spellbook is not unique. I have six of them, actually. Most do contain spells. All but one are also trapped to hell and back. My haversack is, of course, also trapped. Since Im immune to my own explosive runes, symbols, etc, and my party is aware of said trapped state, it poses me no problem. Odds are good it'll kill you though. Actually turning the bag upside down is basically instant death. It'd probably kill anything even close to the area, too.

So, I don't know how you'd ever even get to see my spellbook, let alone steal or sunder it.

Spell component pouches, sure. I have one on my belt. Of course, they're dirt cheap, so I carry spares.

[Tyndmyr]

surprise attack by rogues/anything with sneak/death attack, preferably at night.

Well, death attack(presuming assassin or monk's quivering palm here) is nigh worthless. Also, not available until when the wizard is not sleeping on the ground any more.

I mean, you could theoretically surprise him during the day with multiple rogues, but just stabbing him to death in the surprise round is slightly more likely than stealing the spellbook. And thats not easy.

[Tyndmyr]

Why is this Wizard sleeping somewhere where that could happen? By level 5 I'm sleeping in Extended Rope Tricks (via a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend), so no one's going to ambush me, ever.

JaronK

Fun trick. Do the same thing, with a grey elf. Only need four hours of meditation. The other four hours of waiting for spells is accomplished while awake and alert.

Hiding safely from level 4+(3+ if you get the rod early. 2+ if you took precocious apprentice and talked your DM into starting w the rod.).

[Riffington]

How hard is it to enter a rope trick space without the rope?
For instance, if you plane shift to it, do you enter a random spot within the specific rope trick space, or to a random rope trick space?



Leomund's Secret Chest. And then cut open your palm/arm and slip the focus inside. Get a healing spell. How, exactly, could you snag that?

You have to skip the healing spell part (I imagine it'd push the chest out of your body). Though if you're willing to suck up the damage - it'd be a rare opponent indeed who tried to heal an enemy just in case their body contained a chest.

[Tyndmyr]

How hard is it to enter a rope trick space without the rope?
For instance, if you plane shift to it, do you enter a random spot within the specific rope trick space, or to a random rope trick space?


Well, by RAW, it's a pocket dimension, I believe. I don't know that you can specify "the rope trick cast by so and so". Now, if you know WHERE the rope trick is...no problem. At high levels, anyhow, and the right feats/abilities.

In short...very hard.

[Zincorium]

On destroying the wizard's spellbook

At low levels, the destruction of a spellbook is a blow that the wizard can do little about and from which a wizard cannot recover from without significant help. The only spells they have are the ones they had memorized before it was destroyed, and usually they don't have enough money (assuming that wasn't stolen/destroyed too) to even make a spellbook that will let them continue adventuring.

At high levels, or with a particularly paranoid wizard, you would have to throw so much in the way of resources at the particular problem of the spellbook that it is clear to the player you are targeting them unfairly.


As a player- if you think you can take out an adversary's spellbook easier than facing them in combat, and escape the retribution, and can force the spellcaster to expend most of their spells prior to obtaining a replacement, then it's a passable idea.

All in all, this is one of those things, like Disjunction, that's best left unused.

[BRC]

The weakness of a wizard is that, in the middle of the night, their throats are just as easy to slit.

Unless their in a Rope Trick, or an MMM, or some area protected with wards and magic traps...

[Grumman]

How hard is it to enter a rope trick space without the rope?
For instance, if you plane shift to it, do you enter a random spot within the specific rope trick space, or to a random rope trick space?
You can't. Even if you could, you'd need to create a focus keyed to a temporary demiplane familiar to no one but its creator, and you'd need to teleport into a small room with a spell that always misses by a minimum of five miles.

[LibraryOgre]

Im sure theres more to this than i know, but couldnt someone just simply pickpocket or sunder a wizards book then later that night he would have nothing to study from and would lose all of his spells?(or atleast the ones he used up)

Not only are spellbooks valuable to the wizard himself, but they're also valuable to other wizards. Any wizard worth his salt protects his spellbook. He wards it, protects it from casual, mundane, harm, and does everything he can to protect it.

That said, there are people in the world who specialize in getting around such protections, so it is theoretically possible to circumvent all your protections... high level rogues can disarm magical traps, and items that let you detect magic aren't THAT rare or difficult to have made. So, yes, you can steal a wizard's spellbook, and chances are it will really mess him up. But it should be done with the same care that you would use in disarming the fighter, or cutting off a cleric from their deity.

[ericgrau]

His weakness is the same as what the wizard is prepared for: anything but not everything. Because that would exceed his WBL, spell slots, time, etc., whereas you only need 1 weakness to exploit. Do a search or something b/c the options are too numerous to list.

[Lysander]

Wizards do have one weakness: they need sleep. That makes them vulnerable to Nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nightmare.htm). Unless they're powerful enough to block it with a spell like Mind Blank, or have an unusually high wisdom score, nightmare is a good way of leaving wizards unable to regain spell. Unless they're elves, but how common are elf wizards right?

[Riffington]

You can't. Even if you could, you'd need to create a focus keyed to a temporary demiplane familiar to no one but its creator, and you'd need to teleport into a small room with a spell that always misses by a minimum of five miles.

If it's a different plane than other rope trick planes, you just need to not specify a location, and then you're randomly in a room. If it's the same plane, you're in a random rope trick room.

As for the focus - granted. I have no idea how hard the knowledge Arcana roll would be to determine the type/markings of metal needed. Logically (by the obscure things are obscure reasoning that WOTC ignores), it should be hard. By WOTC's "obscure things are easy; powerful things are hard", it would be trivial.

[Tyndmyr]

Wizards do have one weakness: they need sleep. That makes them vulnerable to Nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nightmare.htm). Unless they're powerful enough to block it with a spell like Mind Blank, or have an unusually high wisdom score, nightmare is a good way of leaving wizards unable to regain spell. Unless they're elves, but how common are elf wizards right?

Sleep is for the weak. IE, the non elves, warforged, undead, etc.

Nightmare is frigging awesome, though. I wouldn't consider that so much a weakness of wizards as it is a way to kill...anyone else.

[ericgrau]

With 1d10 damage and fatigue?

Meh, here's the list anyway, even though I'm sure I'm forgetting several things: grappling, ready action to disrupt spells with damage, a couple full attacks, silence, dispel, nightmare, feeblemind, [empowered] touch of idiocy, disarm/sunder spell component pouch, steal spellbook, SR, sculpt sound, tanglefoot bags or weather (like the spell sleet storm) or other distractions, stealthy assault. Like I said, he can prepare for most things but not everything. And there are counters to most counters.

[Lysander]

Sleep is for the weak. IE, the non elves, warforged, undead, etc.

Nightmare is frigging awesome, though. I wouldn't consider that so much a weakness of wizards as it is a way to kill...anyone else.

Wizards are also weak against Feeblemind, although I suppose that Nightmare and Feeblemind prove that the weakness of wizards is other wizards.

How about grappling them? If you can get close enough to grapple a wizard they won't be able to cast spells with somatic components, or use material components they aren't already holding, and they'll need to make a concentration check.

[JaronK]

Mirror Image pretty much screws grappling and most forms of direct assault, and it's a low level spell that gets used a lot.

At higher levels I actually build mobile fortresses for Wizards (thanks to Haunt Shift and/or Greater Floating Disk). A miniturret with arrow slits and a hatch to open for Line of Effect is incredibly useful if made of durable materials (watch out for martial manuever classes!).

JaronK

[BRC]

The weakness of a wizard is that their character sheet is easily burnable.

[Tyndmyr]

Wizards are also weak against Feeblemind, although I suppose that Nightmare and Feeblemind prove that the weakness of wizards is other wizards.

Pretty much.


How about grappling them? If you can get close enough to grapple a wizard they won't be able to cast spells with somatic components, or use material components they aren't already holding, and they'll need to make a concentration check.

Concentration is sufficiently boostable to be a non-issue. Every wizard is going to max concentration, spellcraft, and Knowledge:Arcana for quite a while at a minimum.

Plenty of "you cant touch this" grapple options exist. Doesnt one of the heart buffs offer freedom of movement at level 6?

There's still things like dimension door, which has no material components. Silent DD is pretty frequently prepped, even before wizards get contingency.

Plus...you have to get to the wizard and grapple them without being turned into cinders. It's pretty unlikely.

[Kylarra]

Heart of Water can be used for FoM for rnds/lvl.

[Lysander]

How about being a ghost who can't rest until the wizard is killed? Each time he kills you, you rejuvenate in a few days. Keep attacking him until you succeed.

[jmbrown]

How hard is it to enter a rope trick space without the rope?
For instance, if you plane shift to it, do you enter a random spot within the specific rope trick space, or to a random rope trick space?


Rope trick's window is 3x5' so a human could fit in without having to squeeze. The actual problem is finding the exact spot. A DC 40 check will let you notice that there's actually something invisible floating around in the vicinity but you can't pinpoint it. If you have track or scent you can look for where everyone's tracks end.

It's easier to smoke people out of a rope trick spell by building a fire underneath them. If you're a character with see invisibility you can also toss a fireball up the window. Again, very very very few creatures or situations would actually warrant someone seeing the window that leads to the pocket dimension.

[holywhippet]

How about grappling them? If you can get close enough to grapple a wizard they won't be able to cast spells with somatic components, or use material components they aren't already holding, and they'll need to make a concentration check.

Most spells have a verbal component so get one character to grapple them and another to gag them.

[olentu]

How about being a ghost who can't rest until the wizard is killed? Each time he kills you, you rejuvenate in a few days. Keep attacking him until you succeed.

Well eventually if one fails enough the wizard will level up enough to be able to cast trap the soul or something like that.

[Grumman]

If you're a character with see invisibility you can also toss a fireball up the window.
No you can't. Spells cannot be cast across the dimensional interface.

[BRC]

No you can't. Spells cannot be cast across the dimensional interface.
How about physical objects. Could you chuck a Bead of Fireball up there?
Or you could figure out where the rope trick comes out, and fill that area with spikes, acid, caltrops, and other things you don't want to land on.

[Yuki Akuma]

No you can't. Spells cannot be cast across the dimensional interface.

Transdimensional Spell.

[JaronK]

Which is a really rare feat for a monster to have, but necessary to a Wizard hunter character. Of course, considering what the feat does, it pretty much requires that said Wizard Hunter is in fact a caster himself. Probably a Wizard, since he wants that spellbook!

JaronK

[Toliudar]

I think that the major weakness of all wizards is that they're being played by us. Sure, they've got giant warehouses of Int lying around, but no player/DM is flawlessly inventive and careful in their defenses.

[Melamoto]

There are 2 things I can think of. Firstly, that the Wizard is going to want to divine upon anything that may want to kill him. So, as soon as the Wizard uses any divination that targets you, he realises you took the Live my Nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm#liveMyNightmare) feat (Make sure to maximise Charisma; if he doesn't make the Will save, he definitely won't make the Fort).

The alternative is a simple "automatic bothering" system. As long as the wizard is interrupted every hour, it is impossible for him to prepare more spells. This is easily doable by a decently levelled character, using various means. Thunderstones in the night, casting SoD spells so that the Wizard must defend himself, and just plain old destruction. He'll use all his spells eventually.

[Tiki Snakes]

There are 2 things I can think of. Firstly, that the Wizard is going to want to divine upon anything that may want to kill him. So, as soon as the Wizard uses any divination that targets you, he realises you took the Live my Nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm#liveMyNightmare) feat (Make sure to maximise Charisma; if he doesn't make the Will save, he definitely won't make the Fort).

The alternative is a simple "automatic bothering" system. As long as the wizard is interrupted every hour, it is impossible for him to prepare more spells. This is easily doable by a decently levelled character, using various means. Thunderstones in the night, casting SoD spells so that the Wizard must defend himself, and just plain old destruction. He'll use all his spells eventually.

Minions. Hundreds and Hundreds of fanatically loyal, gibbering and chattering idiot minions. (Why do you think so many villains keep all those Goblins and Kobolds around? :smallcool: )

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A well-prepared wizard *HAS* no weaknesses. That is why he's so broken. It would be physically impossible, barring "Rocks Fall", to take a Wizard's primary spellbook, simply due to the sheer number of ways they have of protecting it. Heck, a simple Glove of Storing lets you keep it on hand but inaccessible to anyone else, and who would know it is in there unless they saw him pull it out?

Physical attacks? "Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect". That is, of course, assuming you don't have Foresight up yet. Nerveskitter also makes it almost impossible to get the drop on a Wizard.

In his sleep? First off, find him. Rope Trick or MMM is going to be the first line of defense. Alarm spells will be the second. A familiar with an exceedingly high Listen and Spot checks is the third string defense. Contingency is the fourth. Paying off a temple to ressurect you in the event someone *DOES* manage to off you may be considered a fifth, ensuring that, even if you kill him, you didn't get rid of him for good.

Also, Ring of Sustenance. He only needs two hours of sleep, the rest is simply done in contemplation. Which means odds are great your 'sleeping' wizard has a Finger of Death with your name on it, just waiting for you to get in range.

And let's face it... a properly prepared wizard doesn't need more than one action to win. And he's got too many ways of making sure that action comes first.

[Origomar]

Which is a really rare feat for a monster to have, but necessary to a Wizard hunter character. Of course, considering what the feat does, it pretty much requires that said Wizard Hunter is in fact a caster himself. Probably a Wizard, since he wants that spellbook!

JaronK

could be someone who steals wizard books for their high price on the black market?

[Melamoto]

A well-prepared wizard *HAS* no weaknesses. That is why he's so broken. It would be physically impossible, barring "Rocks Fall", to take a Wizard's primary spellbook, simply due to the sheer number of ways they have of protecting it. Heck, a simple Glove of Storing lets you keep it on hand but inaccessible to anyone else, and who would know it is in there unless they saw him pull it out?
And that is why you stop him from being able to use his Spellbook. According to RAW:

To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.
Thus, if you can manage to disturb the Wizard once an hour or more, then it is impossible for him to prepare spells.

Physical attacks? "Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect". That is, of course, assuming you don't have Foresight up yet. Nerveskitter also makes it almost impossible to get the drop on a Wizard.
Which constitutes a distraction.

In his sleep? First off, find him. Rope Trick or MMM is going to be the first line of defense. Alarm spells will be the second. A familiar with an exceedingly high Listen and Spot checks is the third string defense. Contingency is the fourth. Paying off a temple to ressurect you in the event someone *DOES* manage to off you may be considered a fifth, ensuring that, even if you kill him, you didn't get rid of him for good.
With the exception of hiding in a Rope Trick or MMM, they all count as distractions. So the Wizard's only real line of defence is hiding.

Also, Ring of Sustenance. He only needs two hours of sleep, the rest is simply done in contemplation. Which means odds are great your 'sleeping' wizard has a Finger of Death with your name on it, just waiting for you to get in range.
So you simply don't go in yourself for the time he is resting. Teleport an angry mook in.

And let's face it... a properly prepared wizard doesn't need more than one action to win. And he's got too many ways of making sure that action comes first.
The Wizard is indeed an incredibly difficult opponent, which requires much time to take down even a single one. However, give a Rogue or Bard a similar amount of preparation with UMD, Diplomaminions, and a bit of time and ingenuity, and even a Wizard may fall. Note that this assumes this isn't a level 20+ wizard with Genesis and Chain-Gate; then you're royally boned.

[JaronK]

could be someone who steals wizard books for their high price on the black market?

Yeah, but there has GOT to be a better way to make money than trying to steal spellbooks from Wizards. I'd recommend stealing swords from Fighters... it's not like they have Spot checks or surprising defenses to stop you.

JaronK

[Lycanthromancer]

Yeah, but there has GOT to be a better way to make money than trying to steal spellbooks from Wizards. I'd recommend stealing swords from Fighters... it's not like they have Spot checks or surprising defenses to stop you.

JaronKTaking dragon hoards is safer.

[Ogremindes]

I thought a wizards weaknesses were levels 1-4 and honest days of work.

[Riffington]

Yeah, but there has GOT to be a better way to make money than trying to steal spellbooks from Wizards. I'd recommend stealing swords from Fighters... it's not like they have Spot checks or surprising defenses to stop you.

JaronK

Dunno... spellbooks may contain new spells or other things of true value; swords rarely will. Certainly they contain valuable traps and writings. You'd have to be powerful, but at that point your business model is:

*look for extradimensional spaces with books in them.
*kill what's in it, or just take the stuff that looks valuable and run.

There may be some kind of creature for whom rope tricks are not a tiny thing to "run across" but rather the specific thing they're looking for.

[ericgrau]

On verbal components: If you pin someone in a grapple you may prevent him from speaking. Also, if the spell is only used to escape the grapple without doing something offensive as well, it takes an action so at best you break even and the fight is where it was 1 round before, minus a spell slot.

On mirror image: full attacks, magic missile and a million other things make short work of the abysmal image AC. Also takes an action to cast.

Given how brief D&D fights are (in rounds, not real world time), most of the time the wizard is best off doing something offensive and only preparing defensive things that can be prepared outside of combat. If he spends a turn on something else, he's already lost a large chunk of his effectiveness.

[soir8]

On destroying the wizard's spellbook

At low levels, the destruction of a spellbook is a blow that the wizard can do little about and from which a wizard cannot recover from without significant help. The only spells they have are the ones they had memorized before it was destroyed, and usually they don't have enough money (assuming that wasn't stolen/destroyed too) to even make a spellbook that will let them continue adventuring.

At high levels, or with a particularly paranoid wizard, you would have to throw so much in the way of resources at the particular problem of the spellbook that it is clear to the player you are targeting them unfairly.


As a player- if you think you can take out an adversary's spellbook easier than facing them in combat, and escape the retribution, and can force the spellcaster to expend most of their spells prior to obtaining a replacement, then it's a passable idea.

All in all, this is one of those things, like Disjunction, that's best left unused.


One thing I use in campaigns as a tradeoff for playing a wizard and being ridiculously overpowered is the idea that if you pull out a lot of devestatingly flashy magic, your enemies will pay more attention to you. This means wizards, clerics and druids who flaunt their power too much end up having to deal with assassins and being the main targets of the bad guys. The one powergamer I play with hates it :D

[Kylarra]

On verbal components: If you pin someone in a grapple you may prevent him from speaking. Also, if the spell is only used to escape the grapple without doing something offensive as well, it takes an action so at best you break even and the fight is where it was 1 round before, minus a spell slot. Heart of Water can be activated as a swift action, so that leaves you free to do whatever.

Given how brief D&D fights are (in rounds, not real world time), most of the time the wizard is best off doing something offensive and only preparing defensive things that can be prepared outside of combat. If he spends a turn on something else, he's already lost a large chunk of his effectiveness.
Being an hr/lvl buff, heart of water neatly qualifies here.

[olentu]

On verbal components: If you pin someone in a grapple you may prevent him from speaking. Also, if the spell is only used to escape the grapple without doing something offensive as well, it takes an action so at best you break even and the fight is where it was 1 round before, minus a spell slot.

On mirror image: full attacks, magic missile and a million other things make short work of the abysmal image AC. Also takes an action to cast.

Given how brief D&D fights are (in rounds, not real world time), most of the time the wizard is best off doing something offensive and only preparing defensive things that can be prepared outside of combat. If he spends a turn on something else, he's already lost a large chunk of his effectiveness.

Well depending on the spell the fight could be where it was one round before except the wizard is 700 feet away in a random direction.

[Lysander]

Here's an idea on how to stop a wizard from teleporting away. Splash gorgon blood on them. Would that work? That might buy you a round before they use presdigitation to clean it off.

[Kallisti]

Since gorgon's blood blocking teleports isn't RAW and since he'll just go Celerity-Time Stop and get all the time he needs even if it does in your DM's world, no. To trap the wizard, you need a way to deal with teleports, celerity, time stop, and probably a dozen other "I Win" buttons. I'd suggest AMF if it weren't for Invoke Magic.

[Xenogears]

Since gorgon's blood blocking teleports isn't RAW and since he'll just go Celerity-Time Stop and get all the time he needs even if it does in your DM's world, no. To trap the wizard, you need a way to deal with teleports, celerity, time stop, and probably a dozen other "I Win" buttons. I'd suggest AMF if it weren't for Invoke Magic.

Well luckily for me all of my characters carry a chunk of the spire thingy from the... outlands was it... meh whatever thing from that plane that blocked all magic and divine powers. Yeah that. I go get a chunk of it. Wizard Kryptonite there. That explains the cancer my monk has too...

[Tyndmyr]

Heart of Water can be activated as a swift action, so that leaves you free to do whatever.

Being an hr/lvl buff, heart of water neatly qualifies here.

That's the one. Honestly, I run all four for the combo benefits, so I couldn't recall which was the freedom of movement one.

It's basically a "no" to grapplers.

[Tyndmyr]

Here's an idea on how to stop a wizard from teleporting away. Splash gorgon blood on them. Would that work? That might buy you a round before they use presdigitation to clean it off.

Wait, wait...you WANT the wizard to stay there?

I thought the idea of a thief was to swipe it and run the hell away.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

And that is why you stop him from being able to use his Spellbook. According to RAW: Good luck with that.


Thus, if you can manage to disturb the Wizard once an hour or more, then it is impossible for him to prepare spells. Like that is going to happen...


Which constitutes a distraction. of one round.


With the exception of hiding in a Rope Trick or MMM, they all count as distractions. So the Wizard's only real line of defence is hiding. 'hiding' in the sense of 'being in an extra-planar pocket which you cannot access' is rather like 'being upset' and 'committing genocide'. While the terms are in some loose way related, there's several orders of magnitude between them.


So you simply don't go in yourself for the time he is resting. Teleport an angry mook in. Assuming he doesn't have any summoned/Planar Binding mooks to protect him... assuming you *CAN* get in them in there in the first place, which almost certainly is a 'no' since it is on a different plane.


The Wizard is indeed an incredibly difficult opponent, which requires much time to take down even a single one. However, give a Rogue or Bard a similar amount of preparation with UMD, Diplomaminions, and a bit of time and ingenuity, and even a Wizard may fall. Note that this assumes this isn't a level 20+ wizard with Genesis and Chain-Gate; then you're royally boned.

Even without chain-gates and Genesis, you're still boned. Because at *WORST* he will simply flee with a Contingency Teleport, then use sufficient divination to find YOU and attack YOU when YOU are at your weakest. And he has more resources to do so than you did in the first place, not to mention a FAR deadlier repertoire at his fingertips to ensure he is somewhat more successful. And if you *REALLY* cheezed him off, your soul ends up in a nice black sapphire on his necklace, and you can't even be rez'd.

The only counter to a Wizard is a bigger Wizard. And even then, after about 12th level, about the best you are going to get is to force the weaker one to retreat.

[JaronK]

The last time I actually played a really high level book caster (an Archivist, but close enough), I had totally different defenses. I did hang out in Rope Tricks while resting, but I was Haunt Shifted into a huge Hardened Dwarvencraft Blue Ice statue with permanent Shrink Item on it (so I could be tiny at will) and permanent Invisibility. Then I rode around on my own Simacrulum and pretended to be my familiar (if anyone could see me anyway).

Point being, you don't actually know the Wizard's defenses ahead of time. In the case of that character, popping into his Rope Trick somehow and firing off any sort of Antimagic would have resulted in an angry huge four legged four armed monstrosity with a Hardness of over 50 and a strength of 20 beating on you while the simacrulum retreated to outside of the antimagic field and started causing a ruckus.

JaronK

[Lycanthromancer]

Well luckily for me all of my characters carry a chunk of the spire thingy from the... outlands was it... meh whatever thing from that plane that blocked all magic and divine powers. Yeah that. I go get a chunk of it. Wizard Kryptonite there. That explains the cancer my monk has too...Cancer mage?

[Xenogears]

Cancer mage?

Well I was just trying to make a crack about Lex Luthor getting cancer from carrying Kyrptonite with him and bald made me think of monks. Should've found a way to put them into their though...

Also Cancer Mage's get the best class feature ever. A Telepathic Tumor Companion? Seriously? It's one of those things that is so dumb it becomes insanely awesome.

[taltamir]

1. If you target a wizard spellbook or a spell component pouch, your players will play sorcerers with eschew materials.

2. its not "fair" to target spellbooks because wizards can easily kill anything, it is fair to ban abusive spells so that wizards cannot easily kill everything (there are only a handful of broken spells).

3. it is a jerk move to destroy someone in such a manner.

4. Even if a wizard did not protect his book (I never do, its not a "real" issue), it is far harder to get then the implements other classes get. The wizard takes it out during the morning for an hour of prep... the fighter has to take off his armor when he sleeps or he wakes up fatigued, the fighter is in melee with his magic weapon which is a significant amount of its WBL and is deliciously sunderable (or shattered with a spell), the cleric has his divine focus (shatter spell)... the spellbook is the least likely thing to attack.

5. If you have access to a sleeping wizard, slit his throat rather then digging through their stuff.

6. nightmare is an example of a broken spell; allowing it empowers the wizard, he can protect himself from that spell (not to mention he has a good will save) while applying it to all his enemies. Daily. The "unlimited range" and possibility to cast on someone you know nothing about (-10) is just ludicrous.

7. feeblemind is an overpowered spell... it turns any PC into an NPC (legally, you are not allowed to play a character with under 3 int. It is too stupid to make decisions). A wizard has some recourse:
A. Wizards have good will save
B. Wizards tend to wear int increasing items, a +2 headband is enough for them to maintain control of their character... they cannot cast spells (unless they have UMD and make the check to emulate a high enough int score), but they can find and pay someone to remove the spell.
C. A familiar can undo it with UMD; or find someone who can.

[Wings of Peace]

On the Spellbook point I'm a fan at later levels of PaOing my Spellbook into something that can either fight for itself if discovered or burrow/phase into an arbitrary location others cannot reach.

[Lycanthromancer]

You can add a storage space to a shield, slide the spellbook in, then cast that spell that allows you to absorb a weapon into your body (lasts 1 hour/lvl, and a shield can be used as a weapon; I don't recall the name of the spell, though I do believe it's in the Spell Compendium).

You can also keep it on the self-made demiplane where you keep your body while you astrally project out with an astral copy of your spellbook.

You can take the ACF that allows you to store your spells inside your head.

You can polymorph any object it (twice) into a mirror mephit, bind it as your familiar, then have it make simulacra of itself.

You can tattoo it onto your body.

You can make 15,000 copies of it and store them all over Creation.

You can make it your Item Familiar and upgrade the hell out of it, making it nigh-indestructible.

You can put it in a Leomund's secret chest and summon it to you whenever.

You can turn it into a warforged component, which may only be stolen/damaged/destroyed if you are unconscious or dead. Only suitable for warforged wizards, however.

Make it an intelligent item with some serious self-defenses of its own.

Haunt shift it and polymorph any object into something either innocuous or dangerous.

Cast hoard gullet and swallow the thing.

Craft the spellbook in the form of a hymnal, research the summon instrument bardic cantrip, and keep it somewhere safe until you need to summon it. Teleport object sends it away again.

Shrink item to make it grain-of-sand size, and stuff it into your sock.

Craft it from adamantine and use it as a bludgeoning weapon. Keep it stowed away until you Quickdraw it to beat monsters to death. In fact, there's a type of spellbook specifically designed as a weapon. It can have weapon enhancements and everything.

[Wings of Peace]

You can take the ACF that allows you to store your spells inside your head.

Which ACF lets you store spells in your head? I am unfamiliar with it.

[olentu]

Which ACF lets you store spells in your head? I am unfamiliar with it.

Eidetic spellcaster from dragon 357.

[Setra]

I was always a fan of the "Store the spellbook invisible, a mile above the earth, with protection from scrying, in a Secret Chest, supported by invisible immovable rods, above a location only you'd know about" method.

Or was that a method for hiding Phylacteries..

[Demented]

Knowing Wizards, I'm surprised they haven't researched a spell called Summon Spellbook.

[Zaydos]

Knowing Wizards, I'm surprised they haven't researched a spell called Summon Spellbook.

"Grampa, what happened to all the wizards?"
"It was a different age then my child, where great mages ruled the world and all were oppressed. They kept heir magic lore in great tomes and one enterprising mage made a spell to summon these forth when they were needed. Unfortunately the spell was used for less than such noble purposes, and instead a wizard decided he would use it to summon the book of other mages. A great war broke out, and wizard fought wizard. They would summon forth the other mage's tome and destroy it rendering them unable to regain spells. This fighting went on till only one wizard survived, and cackling madly he set forth into his own demiplane, never to be seen again."

...Oh wait did you mean just to summon your own spellbook?

[Demented]

Actually, I was thinking of a brand new spellbook, complete with pre-inscribed spells.

They've already broken balance, I don't think it is capable of putting up much more resistance. :smalltongue:

[Emmerask]

Leomund's Secret Chest. And then cut open your palm/arm and slip the focus inside. Get a healing spell. How, exactly, could you snag that?

Secret chest does not seem to me such a good hiding or storing option the etheral plane is after all inhabited and there are planty items/spells that shifts you to the plane to search there.

"While the chest is in the Ethereal Plane, there is a cumulative 1% chance per week that some being finds it. This chance is reset to 1% whenever the chest is recalled and the spell recast to return it to the Ethereal Plane. If the chest is found, the DM must work out the encounter and decide how the being reacts to the chest (for example, it might ignore the chest, fully or partially empty it, or even exchange or add to the items present!)."

and this is just the base chance that you get even if someone isn´t actively searching for your belongings while 1% doesnt seem much it is still a chance your belongings will be gone ^^ and as I said if someone is actually searching for your stuff knowing you are a wizard he/she/it would search the ethereal plane too :smallbiggrin:

[Killer Angel]

On mirror image: full attacks, magic missile and a million other things make short work of the abysmal image AC. Also takes an action to cast.


mmm... not sure about magic missile.
Only a successful attack against an image destroys it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mirrorImage.htm), and the images have a AC; does a magic missile count for "successful attack"? You simply select a target (the image) but you don't do any attack roll.

[The Glyphstone]

Secret chest does not seem to me such a good hiding or storing option the etheral plane is after all inhabited and there are planty items/spells that shifts you to the plane to search there.

"While the chest is in the Ethereal Plane, there is a cumulative 1% chance per week that some being finds it. This chance is reset to 1% whenever the chest is recalled and the spell recast to return it to the Ethereal Plane. If the chest is found, the DM must work out the encounter and decide how the being reacts to the chest (for example, it might ignore the chest, fully or partially empty it, or even exchange or add to the items present!)."

and this is just the base chance that you get even if someone isn´t actively searching for your belongings while 1% doesnt seem much it is still a chance your belongings will be gone ^^ and as I said if someone is actually searching for your stuff knowing you are a wizard he/she/it would search the ethereal plane too :smallbiggrin:

Why would the chest be undefended? Slap some Explosive Runes on every exterior surface - if you can find a way to ward your spellbook against force damage, paint the runes on every interior surface too. Sure, Ethereal natives can stumble across it, but they won't have much chance to empty it.:smallcool:

As for someone looking for it...the Ethereal is, for all purposes and intents, infinite, remember? (since it overlaps the Prime in all places, it's at least as big as the Prime.) Trying to find it by walking around the Ethereal will take as much time as walking around the entire universe on foot hunting a specific box.

[Emmerask]

yes mm should work it is considered auto successfull cosidering the attack roll (its seeking the enemy it hits automatically without failure)

[Emmerask]

Why would the chest be undefended? Slap some Explosive Runes on every exterior surface - if you can find a way to ward your spellbook against force damage, paint the runes on every interior surface too. Sure, Ethereal natives can stumble across it, but they won't have much chance to empty it.:smallcool:

As for someone looking for it...the Ethereal is, for all purposes and intents, infinite, remember? (since it overlaps the Prime in all places, it's at least as big as the Prime.) Trying to find it by walking around the Ethereal will take as much time as walking around the entire universe on foot hunting a specific box.

But if the whole thing explodes you only have the satisfaction of maybe having killed the creature that has stumbled upon your chest but your stuff will most likely still be gone (in the explosion) :-/
As for the infinite you are right I did forget about that could be quite hard to find something there ^^

[The Glyphstone]

But if the whole thing explodes you only have the satisfaction of maybe having killed the creature that has stumbled upon your chest but your stuff will most likely still be gone (in the explosion) :-/
As for the infinite you are right I did forget about that could be quite hard to find something there ^^

That's why you use a Magically Hardened Adamantine chest. Magically Hardened Adamantine has Hardness 40, capable of soaking the entire 6d6 damage from every individual Rune without even blinking. Make your spellbook out of it as well (an option in Complete Arcane) and you're fine. Anything that isn't MHA is vapor, true, but you're only doing this to protect your spellbook anyways.

Magically Hardened Obdurium is another option, giving a hardness of 60-80 (can't remember if Obdurium is 30 or 40 base). It's in the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, but extremely expensive.

[Rasman]

Er..... you could, but you'd have to be a jerk to actually do it.

Similarly, you could steal the Fighter's sword, or the Cleric's holy symbol. The Wizard is not particularly more vulnerable here than they are - less, because he can stow the book in relative safety for 95% of the day.

and that's one of the reasons I love monks, things have to get pretty extreme for you to totally shut a monk down, I mean, what are you gonna do, chop off my hands and feet?

...stop staring at that clever...

[Grumman]

and that's one of the reasons I love monks, things have to get pretty extreme for you to totally shut a monk down, I mean, what are you gonna do, chop off my hands and feet?
Maybe, but you can say the same about many gishes, psiwars and crusaders.

[Setra]

and that's one of the reasons I love monks, things have to get pretty extreme for you to totally shut a monk down, I mean, what are you gonna do, chop off my hands and feet?
And even then, if he must, he might just bleed on you :smallbiggrin:

[Melamoto]

Good luck with that.A distraction is a lot easier than just killing the Wizard.

Like that is going to happen...All you need to do is find him.

of one round.One round is all it takes. By RAW, any distraction means the Wizard must spend an extra hour resting.

'hiding' in the sense of 'being in an extra-planar pocket which you cannot access' is rather like 'being upset' and 'committing genocide'. While the terms are in some loose way related, there's several orders of magnitude between them.Fight magic with magic. Get out a wand. Perhaps you could prepare an Antimagic Ray trap to fire as soon as the Wizard leaves. Perhaps you could find some way to "dispel" the Rope Trick. I'm not an encyclopedia of magic like some of the people here, so I'm not quite sure how. I'm pretty sure there must be a way though.

Assuming he doesn't have any summoned/Planar Binding mooks to protect him... assuming you *CAN* get in them in there in the first place, which almost certainly is a 'no' since it is on a different plane.Again, I'm not wise in all the ways of magic, but if you can get your mooks there, which I'm sure is possible somehow, then even with minion allies, all you need to do is get the Wizard to use 1 measly spell, or say something, or just have the mook ready an action to throw a Thunderstone next to him as soon as he arrives.

Even without chain-gates and Genesis, you're still boned. Because at *WORST* he will simply flee with a Contingency Teleport, then use sufficient divination to find YOU and attack YOU when YOU are at your weakest. And he has more resources to do so than you did in the first place, not to mention a FAR deadlier repertoire at his fingertips to ensure he is somewhat more successful. And if you *REALLY* cheezed him off, your soul ends up in a nice black sapphire on his necklace, and you can't even be rez'd.His only extra resources are his spells; and if he's going to go into this level of optimization, so can you. He can be prepared for any contingency except being unable to prepare spells. Any kind of distraction, while a nuisance at best, eventually ends up used up over time. For 45000 gp, you can be immune to Divinations. Very possible at higher levels. At lower levels, what are you afraid of? You can just get a series of mooks to disrupt any spell the Wizard casts. Don't forget that by RAW, I see nothing that prevents a Quickened Spell from being interrupted as well. And if you want to play it safe, any continuous source of damage automatically forces a concentration check. So stick a decent long term damage spell or effect on them and gleefully watch as all of their spells fail. Counter summoned minions with bought minions and your own contingencies such as equipping some mooks with Banish scrolls.

The only counter to a Wizard is a bigger Wizard. And even then, after about 12th level, about the best you are going to get is to force the weaker one to retreat.He can't retreat if he has Dimensional Anchor on him. I don't think he can even enter a rope trick, or stick his hand in a bag of holding (Although I may be wrong). And if all he ever does is contingent teleport away automatically, then remember, Contingent Spells are single use and take take at least a day to make. You may store a number of them, but even teleporting away through contingency is a distraction. You have to hunt him down many times, but each time you do, he's down by an effective 3k+ gold, and unable to ready more. I will admit though, finding a Wizard is the most difficult thing, and each time it must be done within an hour. Someone like PF will have to help me on this one.

[Eldan]

That's why you use a Magically Hardened Adamantine chest. Magically Hardened Adamantine has Hardness 40, capable of soaking the entire 6d6 damage from every individual Rune without even blinking. Make your spellbook out of it as well (an option in Complete Arcane) and you're fine. Anything that isn't MHA is vapor, true, but you're only doing this to protect your spellbook anyways.

Magically Hardened Obdurium is another option, giving a hardness of 60-80 (can't remember if Obdurium is 30 or 40 base). It's in the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, but extremely expensive.

Or go even harder, and make it from Riverine (Stormwrack, I think?) It's a building material made from Walls of Force.

[Hopeless]

Just a thought but is there anything stopping you buying an empty spell book identical to your own and have that be the one left visible so anyone cruel enough to pull this trick won't realise they're being suckered when trying this ploy?

In all the games I played in I only ran a wizard about once under 3.0, much preferred the sorceror since I quite liked the idea of a character who disliked having to have costly spell components of course that ended up with a running joke since I tended to prefer using Dancing Lights an awful lot as a result...

Still that character had the leadt amount of magical items after another player joined in with a wizard after my character had already chosen Identify as her 3rd level choice of spell. The only item she had was a cloak of elvenkind the elves in the party didn't want only to have it taken off my character during a week I was absent so the rogue could recon a patrol camp which he didn't end up doing.
That annoyed me alot more than losing a spell book, still hope you have better luck curing this particular problem.

Sorry just had a V moment!

One blank spell book as bait and "I Prepared Explosive Runes" later...

[Sliver]

Secret chest does not seem to me such a good hiding or storing option the etheral plane is after all inhabited and there are planty items/spells that shifts you to the plane to search there.

"While the chest is in the Ethereal Plane, there is a cumulative 1% chance per week that some being finds it. This chance is reset to 1% whenever the chest is recalled and the spell recast to return it to the Ethereal Plane. If the chest is found, the DM must work out the encounter and decide how the being reacts to the chest (for example, it might ignore the chest, fully or partially empty it, or even exchange or add to the items present!)."

A week will never pass if you recall it every morning to prepare spells..

Anyway, targeting the spellbook because you think wizards are OP is like allowing item familiars because being able to take them away is a mitigating factor. It's not. It's being a jerk after you said something is OK.

[Melamoto]

Anyway, targeting the spellbook because you think wizards are OP is like allowing item familiars because being able to take them away is a mitigating factor. It's not. It's being a jerk after you said something is OK.
Most of this is simply hypothetical, and will never take place in a real game (Really, who is going to do all the standard Wizard tricks in an actual game? It's just not fun). And in actual cases, this is also useful for other players who think the Wizard is being a real jerk.
Although come to think of it, it would be cool if someone made a PvP game, "Against the Wizard".

[Sliver]

Most of this is simply hypothetical, and will never take place in a real game (Really, who is going to do all the standard Wizard tricks in an actual game? It's just not fun). And in actual cases, this is also useful for other players who think the Wizard is being a real jerk.
Although come to think of it, it would be cool if someone made a PvP game, "Against the Wizard".

It wouldn't be standard wizard tricks if they weren't being used.. Not all of them, but some should be enough..

If the wizard needs to use all the tricks in the book to protect his spellbook then you are at the point where you just wait for him to make a mistake.

"Ha! You didn't look both ways before crossing the road! You get hit by a horse!"

And if the other players think the wizard player is being a jerk, you talk to the jerk, not invent some organization that is after his character's spellbook.

Unfairly targeting one of the players is unfair.

[olentu]

Secret chest does not seem to me such a good hiding or storing option the etheral plane is after all inhabited and there are planty items/spells that shifts you to the plane to search there.

"While the chest is in the Ethereal Plane, there is a cumulative 1% chance per week that some being finds it. This chance is reset to 1% whenever the chest is recalled and the spell recast to return it to the Ethereal Plane. If the chest is found, the DM must work out the encounter and decide how the being reacts to the chest (for example, it might ignore the chest, fully or partially empty it, or even exchange or add to the items present!)."

and this is just the base chance that you get even if someone isn´t actively searching for your belongings while 1% doesnt seem much it is still a chance your belongings will be gone ^^ and as I said if someone is actually searching for your stuff knowing you are a wizard he/she/it would search the ethereal plane too :smallbiggrin:

My PHB does not have the passage about chances per week. Instead it says

"After sixty days, there is a cumulative chance of 5% per day that the chest is irretrievably lost. If the miniature of the chest is lost or destroyed, there is no way, not even with a wish spell, that the large chest can be summoned back, although an extraplanar expedition might be mounted to find it."


So you must obviously be getting this from somewhere and I would like to know where that is as I do prefer to be informed. It does seem familiar but I can not place where I have seen it.

[Killer Angel]

yes mm should work it is considered auto successfull cosidering the attack roll (its seeking the enemy it hits automatically without failure)

Confirmed: I've asked in Q&A by RAW just to be sure).
(the same old story: the major weakness of the wizard is... another wizard)

[Slayn82]

I dont understand. Why should someone in game "play fair" with an wizard and not target his spellbook/him if said wizard is an annoyance? Why people should not use Disjunction? Item Familiars are good and risky, people should either avoid it like plague or be ready to take the bonus and onus. WBL are just "guidelines" for a game, and in battles you can lose anything or everything. And of course, there are some Jerk enemies now and then, and thats perfectly fine.

And if players decide that the danger for their spellbooks is too big and decide to be sorcerers or other casters instead, well, whats the problem?

Also, in most games the biggest resources the parties have are Allies and Plot, anyway, and those are not covered by WBL.

Also, i got the picture of wizards pulling pranks at each other, dispeling the rope trick/ MMMansion and letting the people inside fall. Thats golden comedy.

[JaronK]

yes mm should work it is considered auto successfull cosidering the attack roll (its seeking the enemy it hits automatically without failure)

Magic Missile can't target objects, IIRC. So it just fails.

JaronK

[2xMachina]

Because targeting the spellbook is as hard/harder than targeting the wizard?

Because you should ban/change disjunction in the first place (unless you like rolling saves for every magic item you have)? I'd say Disjunction is like nukes IRL. Rarely/never used cause of the MAD thing. You Dis me, I Dis you, and now we're all poor.

Item familiar... yeah if well known and they don't protect it well enough. But main reason people don't target them is cause it's banned in the first place. (Too powerful and makes you useless if lost).

[Runestar]

Well, worse comes to worse, there is that feat in some issue of dragon? which lets a wizard get around needing a spellbook. Eidetic magic or something.

That said, I have always wondered about the viability of a wizard who took mostly spell mastery feats...:smallbiggrin:

[Emmerask]

My PHB does not have the passage about chances per week. Instead it says

"After sixty days, there is a cumulative chance of 5% per day that the chest is irretrievably lost. If the miniature of the chest is lost or destroyed, there is no way, not even with a wish spell, that the large chest can be summoned back, although an extraplanar expedition might be mounted to find it."


So you must obviously be getting this from somewhere and I would like to know where that is as I do prefer to be informed. It does seem familiar but I can not place where I have seen it.

Actually you are absolutly right just looked it up the 3.5 PhB does not have this passage in it I was confusing versions (again:smallfurious:) the older d&d versions though have that passage in the spelldescription ^^
I would still impose that 1% chance in my games but that would be rai not raw so it has little impact on the discussion :smallmad:

[Tokiko Mima]

and that's one of the reasons I love monks, things have to get pretty extreme for you to totally shut a monk down, I mean, what are you gonna do, chop off my hands and feet?

...stop staring at that clever...

All ya gotta do to shut down a monk is have a level appropriate encounter stand in his way. :smallbiggrin:

[Sliver]

I dont understand. Why should someone in game "play fair" with an wizard and not target his spellbook/him if said wizard is an annoyance?

Because it is probably a player issue that can be solved outside the game without being a jerk yourself and not ruining the player's fun?


Why people should not use Disjunction?

If you are dependent on your items, now you suck. Is it fun? Most of the time, no, it is not fun to lose most of your wealth instantly and become extremely weak. That is why there exists the gentleman's agreement in the first place.


Item Familiars are good and risky, people should either avoid it like plague or be ready to take the bonus and onus.

Those things are balanced with the thought that it is OK to use them because the DM can always take it away. That is not balance. If the player invest in it to matter, then while he has it he is far stronger then the rest of the party that didn't take it, while taking it away will probably cause him to be useless. Most players won't find suddenly being useless as fun.


WBL are just "guidelines" for a game, and in battles you can lose anything or everything. And of course, there are some Jerk enemies now and then, and thats perfectly fine.

And if there is a whole bunch of jerks that target that player specifically and disproportionately, you know who is the jerk now? You are. If you have a problem with the player, tell him.


And if players decide that the danger for their spellbooks is too big and decide to be sorcerers or other casters instead, well, whats the problem?

There is non. But if there is a danger to their spellbook, and they are not aware of it, then there is a problem. Players should know that if they will play a wizard, you will target their spellbook in any way possible.


Also, in most games the biggest resources the parties have are Allies and Plot, anyway, and those are not covered by WBL.

And if you take their main class feature, they are not worth more then an NPC class. Most people won't find it fun to play in a game where they are as strong as a commoner while the rest of the party are awesome, just because when they selected their (known as a stronger) class they didn't know ya gonna screw them around randomly.


If targeting one's weak spot causes a transfer from god to puppet, then it is not a balance to a class, and should be used only to make of it a quest and a point in the story that the player needs to overcome. And he should still be able to do something in that time. Not used because he was stronger then his fellow players and they were too shy to just ask him to tone it down.

[Tyrmatt]

Barrett .50 Cal and a suitable other wizard to distract scrying attempts is my personal favourite method for removing a wizard from existence.

But seriously, as I recall, the best way to fight a wizard is to force him to divide his resources so widely he has to make a sacrifice somewhere. Widely varied monsters who wouldn't normally be found together, having to protect against a wide variety of energy types, environmental conditions and status conditions drains his impressive resources, leaving him vulnerable to at least one way in. This of course assumes the wizard isn't a coward who likes to hide in his demiplane after each monster slain.

I'd also imagine that a dedicated counter-spell build also has some viability or possibly a factotum (or the lovely Joker Bard)UMDing a Wand of Dimensional Anchor and keeping up a utterly relentless assault until the wizard is left a spell-less, gibbering husk who can be soundly dashed against a rock until his delicious brain goos slide out of his head.

[taltamir]

Craft it from adamantine and use it as a bludgeoning weapon. Keep it stowed away until you Quickdraw it to beat monsters to death. In fact, there's a type of spellbook specifically designed as a weapon. It can have weapon enhancements and everything.

there is a spellbook staff that stores your spells in braille... to anyone who doesn't know any better, it is a simple quarterstaff

[Melamoto]

Trying to beat a Wizard in a fair way is like a Nerd trying to take on the school Bully: With enough research into the methods and weaknesses, it is vaguely possible; but in the end you will almost always get instagibbed.
But if you were to try it, then you would need to have a number of protections and have all the stops covered. Wizards require very little effort in order to destroy any opponent, as they simply need to know all of the tactics and methods and have all of their contingencies set up. However, a non-wizard can find each of these contingencies and pick them apart until there is but one foolproof strategy left for victory. The problem is that this strategy usually varies from Wizard to Wizard and becomes more and more obscure as you reach higher levels.

[taltamir]

and that's one of the reasons I love monks, things have to get pretty extreme for you to totally shut a monk down, I mean, what are you gonna do, chop off my hands and feet?

...stop staring at that clever...

problem is, a fighter built properly is a better unarmed combatant then a monk... so is a barb, and actually most other classes.


Trying to beat a Wizard in a fair way is like a Nerd trying to take on the school Bully: With enough research into the methods and weaknesses, it is vaguely possible; but in the end you will almost always get instagibbed.

except the wizard is the nerd.
WOTC is sending us a message... "jocks drool, nerds rule"

[Tyndmyr]

You can also get them tattooed on your body. That one's reasonably hard to steal...there are a few alternative spellbook means as well. I'd look into them if my spellbooks actually got targetted much, but frankly, carrying around piles of booby trapped fakes is generally more than I need.

I mean, who doesn't have a backup spellbook with essentials? And who walks out to somewhere dangerous to prep spells when they can do that still in the rope trick, then leave the spellbook safely in the haversack for the day?

[Radiun]

Rust Monsters can terrify armed opponents, not due to their fighting prowess, but their ability to turn your goods to junk.

There is a caster-y equivalent of sorts if I recall
A red mist from Forgotten Realms...
Starts with an N I believe...Nishru?

Anywho, Rope Tricks VS Nishru
Round 1: Fight!

[jmbrown]

Rust Monsters can terrify armed opponents, not due to their fighting prowess, but their ability to turn your goods to junk.

There is a caster-y equivalent of sorts if I recall
A red mist from Forgotten Realms...
Starts with an N I believe...Nishru?

Anywho, Rope Tricks VS Nishru
Round 1: Fight!

If it's the same monster that I'm thinking of it can smell magic so it'll basically hang out underneath the rope trick until it ends.

[Tyndmyr]

Is it vulnerable to acid or fire? If so, it's solvable by looking out the window, then tossing flasks from safety.

[Randalor]

I am amused at people who say that it's unfair for someone to target the wizard's spellbook. You want ultimate arcane power, with the versitility provided with the wider range of spells available to you than the sorcerers, and the destructive power of most modern-day nuclear weapons, but you don't want other people to be able to take the trigger out of your hand. Barring certain exceptions, you willingly chose to play as a wizard, and you went into it knowing that, yes, you are going to become stupidly powerful, but that you have a glaring weakness *well, other than d4 hitdie* that needs to be protected and CAN BE TARGETED by your enemies.

Honestly, if I had to, I would give "subtle" hints that someone is targetting the spellbook *return to the inn from shopping and find that someone's gone through the wizard's stuff and possibly the fighter's, yet nothing was taken, ect* and if they still don't smarten up, then I would go on the offensive.

[Optimystik]

except the wizard is the nerd.
WOTC is sending us a message... "jocks drool, nerds rule"

This is the origin of the pro-caster bias in most systems, I think.

Though 4e evaded this remarkably well, by turning everyone into nerds giving everyone nice things. :smallwink:

[Lysander]

I suppose a high level cleric could defeat a wizard. Just cast Gate, call your deity and hope they come, then present a REALLY convincing reason why they should help you fight the wizard instead of smiting you out of annoyance.

[Optimystik]

I suppose a high level cleric could defeat a wizard. Just cast Gate, call your deity and hope they come, then present a REALLY convincing reason why they should help you fight the wizard instead of smiting you out of annoyance.

A cleric's efficacy vs. a wizard would depend on domain choice and preparation, I would say. Unlike the Wizard, however, a Cleric can prepare every spell in every splat book ever published without learning them first.

Hiding behind their deity might not be necessary, though I suppose having the backing of an epic outsider with divine ranks couldn't hurt.

[Aharon]

@Plane Shift into Rope Trick:
Get something that has Plane Shift as a Spell-like, like a Mind Flayer. It doesn't need the Focus. Of course, if the Wizard brought 7 other creatures into his rope trick, you still can't enter it since there is only room for exactly 8 creatures.

@Nightmare
doesn't work very well as written. It's targeted, so you still need line of sight. Its range is unlimited, so the wizard in his rope trick is safe. On top of these problems, he still gets a saving throw - will, to boot.

[Xenogears]

If targeting one's weak spot causes a transfer from god to puppet, then it is not a balance to a class, and should be used only to make of it a quest and a point in the story that the player needs to overcome. And he should still be able to do something in that time. Not used because he was stronger then his fellow players and they were too shy to just ask him to tone it down.

Most Wizards should have enough wands on hand to last for a "retrieve the spellbook" quest. So that might make an ok side-quest. Kinda like in OoTS when Roy's sword was shattered.

[Tyndmyr]

I'd spring for that. I keep a wide enough variety of scrolls, wands, and potions on hand at all times that I could likely pull it off. Be a challenge, though.

I also frequently take the feat that lets you spont cast a single spell, too. For those of us who play incantatrix's, you can also reapply metamagic to your existing buffs every day. IE, reset the durations via persist. Plus, if you're at the level where people can plane shift into your rope trick, you probably have a bunch of stuff permanencied.

So, you shouldn't exactly be a commoner.

[Cyclocone]

There's no real reason not to have Spell Mastery, since you need it for Uncanny Forethought.

I suppose that if you Spell Mastered Gate (and mebbe Mindrape...), you could just call a Solar and Wish for a new spellbook. Meh.


Come to think of it, Rary's Arcane Conversion just says "The replacement spell must be one already scribed in your spellbook." .
It doesn't really specify that you need to have the spellbook on your person -or that the book even needs to exist anymore- just that the spell must have been scribed into your spellbook at some point in the past. So get Rary's tatooed on your butt-cheek and stop worrying I guess.

Oh, and IIRC, Sinfire Titan has a thread over on BG about using Autohypnosis to memorize spells, I suppose that could work as well.

[Xenogears]

There's no real reason not to have Spell Mastery, since you need it for Uncanny Forethought.

I suppose that if you Spell Mastered Gate (and mebbe Mindrape...), you could just call a Solar and Wish for a new spellbook. Meh.

I'd love to hear a conversation regarding that.
Wizard A: "So I decided to pick Teleport W/out Error as my Spell Mastered spell so I can go to my fortress and get my spare spellbook. What did you pick?"
Wizard B: "Mindrape."
Wizard A: ".....We can't be friends anymore."
Wizard B: "Mindrape"
Wizard A: "So what did you pick?"

[Melamoto]

I'd love to hear a conversation regarding that.
Wizard A: "So I decided to pick Teleport W/out Error as my Spell Mastered spell so I can go to my fortress and get my spare spellbook. What did you pick?"
Wizard B: "Mindrape."
Wizard A: ".....We can't be friends anymore."
Wizard B: "Mindrape"
Wizard A: "So what did you pick?"

More like:

Wizard A: "So I decided to pick Teleport W/out Error as my Spell Mastered spell so I can go to my fortress and get my spare spellbook. What did you pick?"
Wizard B: "Mindrape."
Wizard A: ".....We can't be friends anymore."
Wizard B: "Mindrape"
Wizard A: "An excellent choice master."

[Radiun]

I won't post the whole creature, but apparently it was from a 3.0 book

Nishruu
Large Outsider (Chaotic)
9HD
Fly 20ft (Perfect)
no attacks
Absorbs Magic
-Damaging spells grant permanent hit points equal to the damage the spell would have dealt. Cold and Fire spells deal damage and dissipate after one round (then again, how many of these uber wizards prepare fire spells seeing it's the "most resisted energy type out there")
-Non-damaging spells cast at it grant 1 permanent hp / spell level
-Drains magic items of 1d4 charges per round
-Magic items without charges are rendered inert as long as they remain in contact with the Nishruu (How troubling if the DM rules that an attack is enough contact to negate a weapon's magic) and for 1d4 round thereafter.
-Potions or scrolls used in the Nishruu have no effect until 1d4 rounds after the character leaves the Nishruu's body
-Artifacts do not operate while in contact with the Nishruu and for 1 round after.
-Spellcasters in contact with the Nishruu lose 1 randomly determined prepared spell upon first contact, and then once per round. Each time this happens, the spellcaster must succeed a DC 15 will save or suffer the effects of a feeblemind spell

Gaseous Form - Although it is vulnerable to cold and fire, these effects cannot manifest within the gaseous form of the creature
DR 20/+1 (so 20/magic)
Cold resistance 10
Immune to Mental Influence
Vulnerabilities: Rod of Absorbtion / Ring of Spell Turning have a 5% chance of destroying the creature and become a dusky red colour.
Salt poisons nishruu, dealing 2d10 damage. Throwing salt is a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 5 ft, 10ft max
Charge magic: when killed, items in contact with charges gain 1d6 charges, a magic weapon slaying the creature gains the spell-storing ability for 1d6 days

[Xenogears]

More like:

Wizard A: "So I decided to pick Teleport W/out Error as my Spell Mastered spell so I can go to my fortress and get my spare spellbook. What did you pick?"
Wizard B: "Mindrape."
Wizard A: ".....We can't be friends anymore."
Wizard B: "Mindrape"
Wizard A: "An excellent choice master."

I was going for a slightly more friendly version where Wizard B just erases the conversation. I mean by Wizard A's line they were presumably friends first after all...

[Paganboy28]

What's the big deal about not taking a wizard's book? I understand if it was a simple case of DM fiat just saying "oh you lost your book" or some other random arbitary stunt, but if its a well planned and logical consequence of NPC or other actions then I see that as fair game.

Heaven forbid a wizard have a weakness that can be exploited.

If a wizard is silly enough to not copy his book, have back-ups, leave it on full view and unprotected then he is just begging for it to be taken or something happen to it.

It's no different to a fighter having one big uber weapon which he relies on and then being disarmed or having it sundered.

And if the wizard does throw the dice about, then does the fighter have the right to do the same every time they are parried, dodged, disarmed, sundered, flat-footed, etc?

[Tyndmyr]

Well, yes, wizards should also be penalized for being careless. Leave your spellbook in the bar overnight, and it might be gone.

However, most people are arguing that it should not be targetted any more than you should make a habit of sundering weapons. The occasional appropriate circumstance might make theft or sundering viable and realistic, but it shouldn't be a normal tactic.

[Sinfire Titan]

There's no real reason not to have Spell Mastery, since you need it for Uncanny Forethought.


Oh, and IIRC, Sinfire Titan has a thread over on BG about using Autohypnosis to memorize spells, I suppose that could work as well.

Uncanny Forethought works wonderfully, but Autohypnosis is TO territory. Whether it works or not is up to the DM.

[The Glyphstone]

I won't post the whole creature, but apparently it was from a 3.0 book

Nishruu


Note that the only thing capable of harming it (uberchargers didn't exist in 3.0) was salt? That thing was pretty much a walking/flying piece of DM fiat that just happened to get printed in a book.

[drengnikrafe]

If I was a PC in a game and the DM destroyed my spellbook, I would respond (with great anger) by writing down 20-something steps of how I protected my next spellbook, and insist on describing them, in all their glorious detail, every single night. After the session was over, I would then ask him not to do it again.

Really, it's a fairly cruel potshot to take at a PC, and I would never do it as a DM. There are better ways to resolve issues.

[AgentPaper]

Best way to kill a wizard: Run up to him, take his spellbook, and open it right there. The resulting explosion should at the very least piss off enough other powerful casters to make them try and kill him themselves.

[Melamoto]

If I was a PC in a game and the DM destroyed my spellbook, I would respond (with great anger) by writing down 20-something steps of how I protected my next spellbook, and insist on describing them, in all their glorious detail, every single night. After the session was over, I would then ask him not to do it again.

Really, it's a fairly cruel potshot to take at a PC, and I would never do it as a DM. There are better ways to resolve issues.
That depends really.

If it is done by an NPC with reason, with all of the appropriate rolls made, no metagaming, no arbitrary decisions, and the player hasn't protected the book, then it should be alright (Assuming the NPC is correct to scale). If the DM just tells you "When you wake up you find your spellbook missing" then it is definitely a problem. And you shouldn't take the spellbook if the Wizard is too good, if that's the problem then just nerf them or confront them OOC.

Alternately it can be done by a fellow player if the Wizard is being a jerk and they don't want to confront him lest the Wizard turn his wrath upon him.

[LibraryOgre]

If I was a PC in a game and the DM destroyed my spellbook, I would respond (with great anger) by writing down 20-something steps of how I protected my next spellbook, and insist on describing them, in all their glorious detail, every single night. After the session was over, I would then ask him not to do it again.

Really, it's a fairly cruel potshot to take at a PC, and I would never do it as a DM. There are better ways to resolve issues.

This, to me, seems an unreasonable over-reaction. If your fighter gets hit by a rust monster, do you throw a similar tantrum? Sure, you protect the book. You write out the protections you have and let the DM know about them. But "I would turn every game thereafter into a drama about how I once suffered a major setback in a game"? That's too far.

[Sinfire Titan]

I dont understand. Why should someone in game "play fair" with an wizard and not target his spellbook/him if said wizard is an annoyance?

Because the Wizard is the annoying one, not the spellbook. What did it do to you, molest your shoes or something? The ability to prepare spells from a spellbook is a class feature of the Wizard class, so your problem isn't with the spellbook itself. You're attacking a harmless object because the owner is a jerk. Thus you become a jerk yourself.

[Melamoto]

Because the Wizard is the annoying one, not the spellbook. What did it do to you, molest your shoes or something? The ability to prepare spells from a spellbook is a class feature of the Wizard class, so your problem isn't with the spellbook itself. You're attacking a harmless object because the owner is a jerk. Thus you become a jerk yourself.

Ok, who knows how to turn a Spellbook into a Construct of some kind? A simple "Awaken Construct" from there should handle the rest. Give it little arms and legs, so that when it is stolen it can run back to its owner.

[Sinfire Titan]

Ok, who knows how to turn a Spellbook into a Construct of some kind? A simple "Awaken Construct" from there should handle the rest. Give it little arms and legs, so that when it is stolen it can run back to its owner.

Animate Objects. Now all you need is Rebuke constructs (check some of the Eberron books; I think it actually exists).

[Tyndmyr]

This, to me, seems an unreasonable over-reaction. If your fighter gets hit by a rust monster, do you throw a similar tantrum? Sure, you protect the book. You write out the protections you have and let the DM know about them. But "I would turn every game thereafter into a drama about how I once suffered a major setback in a game"? That's too far.

If you take all his items via a horde of rust monsters that keep coming until the last item dies, then yes....that's bad, and you shouldn't do that.

Likewise, it's not unreasonable for a wizard to face a thief...but it's highly unlikely that any realistic scenario will result in this thief making off with the spellbook, and doing so results in a glorified commoner...destruction is even worse.

You have to be careful when taking things away from the PCs, and it's usually considered a bad practice to take everything in one go. See also, disjunction.

[Tyndmyr]

Ok, who knows how to turn a Spellbook into a Construct of some kind? A simple "Awaken Construct" from there should handle the rest. Give it little arms and legs, so that when it is stolen it can run back to its owner.

Wheels. Tiny constructs have a 90ft movement speed. May as well make sure it can never, ever be caught by another.

[Melamoto]

Animate Objects. Now all you need is Rebuke constructs (check some of the Eberron books; I think it actually exists).

Animate Objects lasts for 1 round/level. You wouldn't want Bookers to suddenly die on you, would you?

[Sinfire Titan]

Animate Objects lasts for 1 round/level. You wouldn't want Bookers to suddenly die on you, would you?

That does pose a problem...

[Melamoto]

That does pose a problem...

Well, you can make Animate Objects Permanent, but still leaves it able to be dispelled. I'm sure that somewhere are the rules for making constructs, or a construct with a variable shape that could be a spellbook. Alternatively, if there's some way to make permanent spells undispellable, that would be useful. Although even that would leave AMFs.

[LibraryOgre]

Likewise, it's not unreasonable for a wizard to face a thief...but it's highly unlikely that any realistic scenario will result in this thief making off with the spellbook, and doing so results in a glorified commoner...destruction is even worse.

Thief? A straight-classed rogue? What about a spellthief? An arcane trickster? A bard? A beguiler?

Yes, it's unreasonable to drown the wizard under a horde of thieves, or the fighter in a horde of rust monsters. But wizards exist, and have a distinct vulnerability. To assume that no one will be able to get around it is the unrealistic scenario.

[Sinfire Titan]

Well, you can make Animate Objects Permanent, but still leaves it able to be dispelled. I'm sure that somewhere are the rules for making constructs, or a construct with a variable shape that could be a spellbook. Alternatively, if there's some way to make permanent spells undispellable, that would be useful.

You could also just create a construct out of a book sleeve, then Sovereign Glue it to your spellbook.

[Melamoto]

You could also just create a construct out of a book sleeve, then Sovereign Glue it to your spellbook.
But that doesn't really have the same feel to it. And how would it get around? No, the whole spellbook must be alive.

Then get it to take levels in Wizard. Would it be able to use itself as a spellbook?

[Riffington]

If a player puts a lot of time/effort into something, you are cheating him not to make it part of the game. If he goes through all this effort on how to protect his spellbook, you should have people interested in stealing his spellbook. If you've never sundered a fighter's sword, that makes me sad too. If you sunder it all the fracking time, you're a jerk.

[Radiun]

Beget a Bogun with a Spell-book slot

After all, who would suspect the Druid's Bogun of holding the Arcane Caster's power source? And after that, who would mess with the Druid's buddy?

[Runestar]

It is easier for a fighter to replace a sundered weapon than for a wizard to get a new spellbook. The fighter can easily just get any mundane weapon and have the party caster enchant it with greater magic weapon.

I guess the whole reason is - why? To what ends? If an enemy sunders the fighter's weapon in combat, this can be justified as being tactically savvy, as you are directly weakening the fighter's combat prowess by reducing his damage dealing capabilities.

Conversely, destroying a wizard's spellbook has no immediate impact on his offensive capabilities. Given all the trouble you need to go through, one would wonder what motivation a thief might have to begin have, and why he should simply not assassinate the wizard in the first place! If anything, this seems to be nothing more than a deliberate decision on the DM's part to make the wizard player's gaming a living hell.

You cannot compare losing a spellbook with sundering a weapon, IMO. Their motivations seem to be entirely different.

[Stompy]

Im sure theres more to this than i know, but couldnt someone just simply pickpocket or sunder a wizards book then later that night he would have nothing to study from and would lose all of his spells?(or atleast the ones he used up)

Then the said wizard either uses obscure tactics to protect his book (see above posts) or roll up a psion (or sorc with eschew materials) as revenge.

Who says that the jerk wizard will stop being a jerk without the wizard part?

EDIT: Also, to say on-topic, can we use the Hubris of the wizard as a weakness? :smallbiggrin:

[Riffington]

Conversely, destroying a wizard's spellbook has no immediate impact on his offensive capabilities. Given all the trouble you need to go through, one would wonder what motivation a thief might have to begin have, and why he should simply not assassinate the wizard in the first place!

It may be easier, depending on the contingencies in place
If you leave the wizard alive he may make another - don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs
To demand services of the wizard "If U ev3r w4nt 2 see Ur b00x"

[BobVosh]

It may be easier, depending on the contingencies in place
If you leave the wizard alive he may make another - don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs
To demand services of the wizard "If U ev3r w4nt 2 see Ur b00x"

Then they simply cast greater scrying on their book. Invisibility superior, ironguard, mindblank, various other catch all protection spells. Then teleport greater, grab their book, which activates their contingency:teleport. If they need to, scrolls will do all of this.

[Riffington]

Then they simply cast greater scrying on their book.

Your spellbook is a creature?

[Xenogears]

Your spellbook is a creature?

Ironically that very thing was being discussed not five posts ago...

[Melamoto]

Ironically that very thing was being discussed not five posts ago...

But not concluded. For it to work, there needs to be a way to permanently turn the Spellbook into a construct, and then use Awaken Construct on him (Can't remember source). Permanent Animate Objects seems like an alright idea, but it can be dispelled, and is disabled in an AMF. Bookers needs some life here.

[Runestar]

Ah, finally found the feat I was talking about earlier.

Eiditic spellcaster, dragon 357. 1st lv feat, lose scribe scroll+familiar, no spellbook needed to record or prepare spells.

Let's see the DM steal that.

But of course, the DM has to allowed said feat in the first place...:smallbiggrin:

[Melamoto]

How do you learn and maintain your Spell List? Do you just become like a Sorcerer or something?

[Riffington]

But not concluded. For it to work, there needs to be a way to permanently turn the Spellbook into a construct, and then use Awaken Construct on him (Can't remember source). Permanent Animate Objects seems like an alright idea, but it can be dispelled, and is disabled in an AMF. Bookers needs some life here.
It also seems like a bad idea in general.
*Probably can't use a Boccob's Blessed Book.
*A crappy failed assassination attempt on the wizard or AoE attack is now likely to accidentally off his spellbook
*now it's actually easier to steal


Separate issue: it seems like there ought (in a campaign with lots of wizards) to be a black market in spellbook-trap-disabling. After all, you kill/defeat/rob a wizard, now you have a very valuable, very trapped book. It may be useful for a backup spellbook, or it may contain spells you desire. So you go to the Guys who specialize in making it usable for you - no questions asked. I wonder if a spellthief would actually be the best class for this?

[Melamoto]

It also seems like a bad idea in general.
*Probably can't use a Boccob's Blessed Book.I don't really see why you couldn't.

*A crappy failed assassination attempt on the wizard or AoE attack is now likely to accidentally off his spellbookOnly by RAW is something more vulnerable when it is alive. But also, you could still use the Spellbook if it didn't get disintegrated. And you can just give it some protective spells.

*now it's actually easier to stealUnless your Spellbook gets rebellious, I fail to see the logic here. The ability to call for help if it is being stolen, and run away from its captors should help quite a bit. More so if it takes class levels.

[Runestar]

How do you learn and maintain your Spell List? Do you just become like a Sorcerer or something?

They learn spells as per a normal wizard, just that the spells are now stored in their minds rather than in spellbooks. Costs remain the same (you must pay to "record" new spells etc).

You are still a wizard in all sense of the word, just no spellbook.

[Riffington]

I don't really see why you couldn't.
If magic items retain their properties when turned into creatures, this should be abused much more often.


Only by RAW is something more vulnerable when it is alive.
Most people play that way: you get fireballed, your items don't take damage unless you totally blow the save. Your spellbook would be toast otherwise. But now that it's a creature, it gets its own (crappy) save against the fireball. Likewise, your "Contingent Teleport" affects you and the items you are holding. Not the slave you are holding.



But also, you could still use the Spellbook if it didn't get disintegrated.
Or fireballed or hit with an ax or whatever

[Melamoto]

They learn spells as per a normal wizard, just that the spells are now stored in their minds rather than in spellbooks. Costs remain the same (you must pay to "record" new spells etc).

You are still a wizard in all sense of the word, just no spellbook.
That seems very powerful, assuming you can still copy spells from other spellbooks into your mind.

If magic items retain their properties when turned into creatures, this should be abused much more often.I see no rules against it, and it isn't really an active magic effect, just a large spellbook enchanted to be easier to use.

Most people play that way: you get fireballed, your items don't take damage unless you totally blow the save. Your spellbook would be toast otherwise. But now that it's a creature, it gets its own (crappy) save against the fireball. Likewise, your "Contingent Teleport" affects you and the items you are holding. Not the slave you are holding.Give the book contingent spell too. It gains all the weaknesses of being a living creature, but all the advantages too, such as levelling and buffs. And you could (As suggested earlier in the guide) make it out of a super-tough material, with energy resistance.

Or fireballed or hit with an ax or whatever
Just use some protective measures. And if that isn't enough, have it take levels in Barbarian. Or, as I suggested earlier as well, levels in Wizard.

[jmbrown]

Turning your spell book into a creature is a horrible idea because it's now a creature, not an object.

And that means pretty much every spell can target it and its saving throws will undoubtly be worse than if you were carrying the thing.

[Runestar]

That seems very powerful, assuming you can still copy spells from other spellbooks into your mind.

Basically just replaces all instances of "spellbook" with "your mind". In place of ink, you use special incenses, but gp cost remains the same. You can still learn new spells from other spellbooks and add them to your mind. In essence, you have a spellbook which cannot be stolen, destroyed or otherwise taken from you in any way.

But it is not cheap. It costs a feat, scribe scroll and your familiar (each of which have their own uses, or can always be swapped out for other benefits). And this is really only a boon in aforementioned scenarios where you think that your spellbook may be in danger. Otherwise, it has little practical benefit, albeit possessing excellent fluff.

However, this is an excellent feat for a wizard npcs whose nature makes it inconvenient for them to possess spellbooks, such as ghosts. Or if you do not want to have the PCs get too rich by looting spellbooks from felled wizards...:smalltongue:

[jmbrown]

Basically just replaces all instances of "spellbook" with "your mind". In place of ink, you use special incenses, but gp cost remains the same. You can still learn new spells from other spellbooks and add them to your mind. In essence, you have a spellbook which cannot be stolen, destroyed or otherwise taken from you in any way.

But it is not cheap. It costs a feat, scribe scroll and your familiar (each of which have their own uses, or can always be swapped out for other benefits). And this is really only a boon in aforementioned scenarios where you think that your spellbook may be in danger. Otherwise, it has little practical benefit, albeit possessing excellent fluff.

However, this is an excellent feat for a wizard npcs whose nature makes it inconvenient for them to possess spellbooks, such as ghosts. Or if you do not want to have the PCs get too rich by looting spellbooks from felled wizards...:smalltongue:

So... can you read an eiditic wizard's mind?

[MeTheGameGuy]

Leomund's Secret Chest. And then cut open your palm/arm and slip the focus inside. Get a healing spell. How, exactly, could you snag that?

So, it's like the D&D version of an RFID chip? :smallamused:

[Sinfire Titan]

So, it's like the D&D version of an RFID chip? :smallamused:

More like the original writer of the Erudite base class wanted to regain control over his own idea after WotC printed the class in CP. That sounds exactly like the class, with GP replacing the XP cost.

[Demented]

So... can you read an eiditic wizard's mind?
Unless you have an eidetic memory yourself, it probably won't do much good.

[Riffington]

Give the book contingent spell too.

What contingencies would you want?


such as levelling
That sounds very dangerous. You fight enemies your own size, book doesn't get XP (too large). You fight enemies below that, and it's no real threat, so book doesn't get XP. You sorta have to send it on adventures with some low level guy you trust.

[Xenogears]

What contingencies would you want?


That sounds very dangerous. You fight enemies your own size, book doesn't get XP (too large). You fight enemies below that, and it's no real threat, so book doesn't get XP. You sorta have to send it on adventures with some low level guy you trust.

No you make the book your cohort...

[Melamoto]

What contingencies would you want?
Freedom of Movement whenever grappled in any way? Put that massive movement speed to use and escape at the speed of sound. Perhaps a teleport whenever it takes a certain amount of damage. Have some way to get him back though.

That sounds very dangerous. You fight enemies your own size, book doesn't get XP (too large). You fight enemies below that, and it's no real threat, so book doesn't get XP. You sorta have to send it on adventures with some low level guy you trust.Sounds like a plan to me. Keep an additional spellbook in the mean time (Awaken Construct is a 9th level spell, so it's not exactly a huge dent in profits). Keep an eye on your book in order to prevent a TPK (They still get XP for any encounter that they face without help).

[Paganboy28]

It is easier for a fighter to replace a sundered weapon than for a wizard to get a new spellbook. The fighter can easily just get any mundane weapon and have the party caster enchant it with greater magic weapon.

I guess the whole reason is - why? To what ends? If an enemy sunders the fighter's weapon in combat, this can be justified as being tactically savvy, as you are directly weakening the fighter's combat prowess by reducing his damage dealing capabilities.

Conversely, destroying a wizard's spellbook has no immediate impact on his offensive capabilities. Given all the trouble you need to go through, one would wonder what motivation a thief might have to begin have, and why he should simply not assassinate the wizard in the first place! If anything, this seems to be nothing more than a deliberate decision on the DM's part to make the wizard player's gaming a living hell.

You cannot compare losing a spellbook with sundering a weapon, IMO. Their motivations seem to be entirely different.


Everyone knows wizards need their spellbook. Without it they cannot prepare spells. So taking it away from them would give you a serious advantage.

If a fighter had a really good weapon and it got sundered/rusted whatever, then saying you can replaced it with a mundane one is a rubbish comparison.


Why would anyone want to steal a wizard's book? Well firstly loot, secondly weaken the wizard, thirdly to learn spells themselves from it, etc...

There are lots of reasons why someone would want to steal a spellbook.

I still have not read one reason why a player or a DM should not exploit a weakness of a class. If you are really that protective about your book then make a sorcerer so you don't even need a book in the first place. Otherwise, what is the point in even making the wizard have the book in the first place if its indestructable, unstealable, etc

Might as well just hand the wizard all the spells without penalty.

[denthor]

Im sure theres more to this than i know, but couldnt someone just simply pickpocket or sunder a wizards book then later that night he would have nothing to study from and would lose all of his spells?(or atleast the ones he used up)

I ran a NE wizard that stole another wizards book in order to rescue another PC that they had taken captive.

So now all of my wizards have the craft skill to make books and always have a second one stashed somewhere else. This means I always have a book somewhere now I have to get to it.

[mostlyharmful]

steal the book, fine. wizards get as many free copies as they want. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/secretPage.htm) It's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/explosiveRunes.htm) more (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfDeath.htm) trouble (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfInsanity.htm) than (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sepiaSnakeSigil.htm) it's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfPersuasion.htm) worth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfWeakness.htm) anyway (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#magicDeviceTrapCost) and it's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm) not (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm) like (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sequester.htm) it's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAllyGreater.htm) easy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) to (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/secretChest.htm) find (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm).

[Riffington]

wizards get as many free copies as they want.
Of things that look like spells, not of actual spells.

[Kylarra]

In practice there tend to be two ways spellbooks get treated. Either they get pretty much ignored, ie treated as all other gear, and no one takes advantage of it, or the spellbook is so well guarded and trapped as to be prohibitively difficult to be pilfered or otherwise destroyed.

There's not much middle ground. Occasionally, the first will happen and the wizard will temporarily lose their spellbook, but after a quest or adventure, they should either reclaim it or recover another spellbook with enough spells to make up for it, much as with atonement quests and the like. Of course after this, then we usually shift into mode b, which puts the spellbook under several different locks and keys.

Ultimately, the point is that it's just not fun to be sitting around doing nothing. One adventure to teach you a lesson about your guarding your things is generally "fine", much like one rust monster or one similar equipment destroying/pilfering encounter is okay, but for the most part, people don't like just sitting around because their character has been arbitrarily gimped.

[taltamir]

stealing a wizard's book is not equivalent to shattering the fighter's sword.
first of all, shatter only works on non magical items, a non magical sword costs practically nothing, and the fighter can literally pick up a FREE club / staff and use it instead.

second of all, the wizard is not affected immediately, only the next day.

thirdly, the wizard's player could have, but has probably not bothered going into a variety of convoluted processes to make it unstealable, all you are doing is maybe getting rid of his first character and forcing the game to bog down with all subsequent ones having a variety of protections in place...

lastly, to make a fighter analogy, its like infecting the fighter with an uncurable (by DM fiat) disease that will rot his arms after a day preventing him from ever using a weapon again.

to those who say "you are complaining about doing it to a wizard but ok with hitting a fighter with a rust monster / disjunction"... don't put words in our mouths... rust monsters utterly suck.

[mostlyharmful]

Of things that look like spells, not of actual spells.

the actual spells get put in your mind. the information is just that, information. plus, in the books it gives a spell as explicitly something that can be recorded.

[Tyndmyr]

I still have not read one reason why a player or a DM should not exploit a weakness of a class. If you are really that protective about your book then make a sorcerer so you don't even need a book in the first place. Otherwise, what is the point in even making the wizard have the book in the first place if its indestructable, unstealable, etc

Might as well just hand the wizard all the spells without penalty.

Because then everyone protects their class features with ridiculous paranoia all the time. You don't do this so you don't have to hear the ten minute description of all the spellbook precautions taken every single day when/after preparing spells.

Likewise, if you make a habit of sundering items, players will abuse extradimensional spaces to protect them, magically harden them, etc. It's not that it's actually hard to protect against this...it's just really boring. We'd rather be slaying dragons, not figuring out how to boost hardness.

[taltamir]

Likewise, if you make a habit of sundering items, players will abuse extradimensional spaces to protect them, magically harden them, etc. It's not that it's actually hard to protect against this...it's just really boring. We'd rather be slaying dragons, not figuring out how to boost hardness.

Exactly!
it works exactly once... the first time you try it...
afterwords the game just bogs down into boredom and tedium as everyone takes excruciatingly long time to explain in boring detail how they make it impossible to do again.

[Fhaolan]

But not concluded. For it to work, there needs to be a way to permanently turn the Spellbook into a construct, and then use Awaken Construct on him (Can't remember source). Permanent Animate Objects seems like an alright idea, but it can be dispelled, and is disabled in an AMF. Bookers needs some life here.

You need to turn the spellbook into your familiar... or the other way around. Oh god.

Right, the following scene is *your* fault. Completely. I take no responsibilty...

The wizard grimaces, "Okay, next spell for memorization... I think I'll go with Grease."

The cat familiar hisses.

"Yes, I know. Believe me I'm regretting that transformation enchantment myself now, but come on, cough it up."

.....

I'm not going to finish this. I can't....

[taltamir]

a cat familiar?
familiars have three purposes:
1. Be a useless timebomb of XP loss, you should never take those.
2. Be abused via special thing that stack familiar with animal companion and paladin mount to create an uber being of pure death and destruction. (or some other abusive things like shapechange)
3. abuse UMD to get you twice the actions per round. (ok, now I cast quickened X and Y, my familiar casts Z, followed by celerity and then W)

A cat has no arms, cannot speak, and cannot fly... nor is it a terrifying monster to begin with... it falls into the first category and should never be taken.

[mostlyharmful]

a cat familiar?
familiars have three purposes:
1. Be a useless timebomb of XP loss, you should never take those.
2. Be abused via special thing that stack familiar with animal companion and paladin mount to create an uber being of pure death and destruction. (or some other abusive things like shapechange)
3. abuse UMD to get you twice the actions per round. (ok, now I cast quickened X and Y, my familiar casts Z, followed by celerity and then W)

A cat has no arms, cannot speak, and cannot fly... nor is it a terrifying monster to begin with... it falls into the first category and should never be taken.

they also have action economy abuse through Imbue Spell-like Ability.

[JonestheSpy]

I seem to recall there was some stuff about "Travelling spellbooks" for magic-users. I think the idea was that the real spellbook was some gigantic old moldy tome that you wouldn't ever take out of your tower, and you could use notebooky-type smaller books to bring on adventures. I don't remember why you couldn't just have the smaller versions and skip the encyclopedia sized one...yet another area where the rules were much vaguer.

Anyway, I'm somewhat surprised that no one has mentioned that a spellbook is vulnerable to all sorts of effects when carried around - fireballs and flamestrikes can be pretty nasty for an object primarily made of paper. Of course it's not cricket for the DM to announce a spellbook needs to save and hasn't been applying the same chance of destruction to other items the party has.

Same would apply for Bags of Holding and the like, btw - if "pierced by a sharp object" the bag is ruined and all contents lost. One would assume the same applies if said bag gets zapped by a flame strike or lightning bolt and blows its save.

Other obvious weakness of wizards no one's mentioned - spell resistant monsters (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0437.html). Yes, the high enough level wizard probably has some method of getting away, but that's not the same as defeating said monster (especially in a timely manner), which some situations are going to require. Yes, things can be summoned, but summoned creatures are always going to be significantly weaker than a foe of equal cr to the wizard in question.

[olentu]

I seem to recall there was some stuff about "Travelling spellbooks" for magic-users. I think the idea was that the real spellbook was some gigantic old moldy tome that you wouldn't ever take out of your tower, and you could use notebooky-type smaller books to bring on adventures. I don't remember why you couldn't just have the smaller versions and skip the encyclopedia sized one...yet another area where the rules were much vaguer.

Anyway, I'm somewhat surprised that no one has mentioned that a spellbook is vulnerable to all sorts of effects when carried around - fireballs and flamestrikes can be pretty nasty for an object primarily made of paper. Of course it's not cricket for the DM to announce a spellbook needs to save and hasn't been applying the same chance of destruction to other items the party has.

Same would apply for Bags of Holding and the like, btw - if "pierced by a sharp object" the bag is ruined and all contents lost. One would assume the same applies if said bag gets zapped by a flame strike or lightning bolt and blows its save.

Other obvious weakness of wizards no one's mentioned - spell resistant monsters (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0437.html). Yes, the high enough level wizard probably has some method of getting away, but that's not the same as defeating said monster (especially in a timely manner), which some situations are going to require. Yes, things can be summoned, but summoned creatures are always going to be significantly weaker than a foe of equal cr to the wizard in question.

Well the thing is that items on a character are assumed to survive magical attacks unless a 1 is rolled as I recall. And even then I thing spellbooks and the like are one of the least likely item categories to be damaged.

[Kylarra]

I seem to recall there was some stuff about "Travelling spellbooks" for magic-users. I think the idea was that the real spellbook was some gigantic old moldy tome that you wouldn't ever take out of your tower, and you could use notebooky-type smaller books to bring on adventures. I don't remember why you couldn't just have the smaller versions and skip the encyclopedia sized one...yet another area where the rules were much vaguer.

Anyway, I'm somewhat surprised that no one has mentioned that a spellbook is vulnerable to all sorts of effects when carried around - fireballs and flamestrikes can be pretty nasty for an object primarily made of paper. Of course it's not cricket for the DM to announce a spellbook needs to save and hasn't been applying the same chance of destruction to other items the party has.

Same would apply for Bags of Holding and the like, btw - if "pierced by a sharp object" the bag is ruined and all contents lost. One would assume the same applies if said bag gets zapped by a flame strike or lightning bolt and blows its save.

Other obvious weakness of wizards no one's mentioned - spell resistant monsters (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0437.html). Yes, the high enough level wizard probably has some method of getting away, but that's not the same as defeating said monster (especially in a timely manner), which some situations are going to require. Yes, things can be summoned, but summoned creatures are always going to be significantly weaker than a foe of equal cr to the wizard in question.Generally damaging attended items only happens if they roll a 1 on a save or you're specifically trying to sunder that specific item. Unless, of course, it happens to be unattended, but in that case you'd probably just try to take it.

[JonestheSpy]

Generally damaging attended items only happens if they roll a 1 on a save or you're specifically trying to sunder that specific item. Unless, of course, it happens to be unattended, but in that case you'd probably just try to take it.

Well, a 1 in 20 chance of a mishap every time one gets zapped by some nasty destructive spell doesn't seem unreasonable. As for whether the book would get affected, it would probably be most logical to go on a cae-by-case basis. A lightning bolt coming from the front of the wizard probably wouldn't be likely to damage a book kept in a backpack, but a flame strike from directly above may well.

[Riffington]

the actual spells get put in your mind. the information is just that, information.
If that were true, you could just buy a piece of paper for 1gp and record the spell on that instead of paying the much-higher spellbook cost.



plus, in the books it gives a spell as explicitly something that can be recorded.

No, no recording. It says it can appear to be something different (such as the text of another spell). It doesn't say it can actually become something different. It makes for a decent trap or hiding spot, but it doesn't make for free spellbooks.

[Tinydwarfman]

a cat familiar?
familiars have three purposes:
1. Be a useless timebomb of XP loss, you should never take those.
2. Be abused via special thing that stack familiar with animal companion and paladin mount to create an uber being of pure death and destruction. (or some other abusive things like shapechange)
3. abuse UMD to get you twice the actions per round. (ok, now I cast quickened X and Y, my familiar casts Z, followed by celerity and then W)

A cat has no arms, cannot speak, and cannot fly... nor is it a terrifying monster to begin with... it falls into the first category and should never be taken.

Wait, familiars get a share of XP? Didn't know that, but since my group pretty much universally uses quest based leveling, it never came up.

on a side note- cats not being powerful?!? don't you know the average housecat completely owns a commoner is fight!:smallbiggrin: but seriously, I've always wanted an uber familiar which outshines the party fighter-
Warblade: "I activate Searing Blade, and use bounding assault to charge the dragon"
GM: "The dragon roars as your sword plunges deep into it's thigh"
Me: "Sic 'em boy! My familiar cat jumps up and scratches it's face."
GM: "The blood and fine pieces of meat splatter the cave. Your hair will take quite a bit of washing to get it out." :smallcool: