If Charm Person fails...

[Pigkappa]

My bard/wizard is in front of a guy. I cast Charm Person on that guy, and his saving throw succeeds. Now, if he isn't extremely stupid, he's just understood that I cast a spell on him, and it didn't work. Won't that make him extremely angry against me? If so, a failed Charm Person will almost always result in the contrary effect.


Another scenario. My bard is in front of a wizard. I cast Charm Person, and the saving throw fails. The wizard is Charmed, but he rolls a Spellcraft check and understands that I cast Charm Person. His aptitude should be friendly toward me, but he knows that is because of the spell, and therefore has really good reason to be angry against me and to avoid me. How does the spell work in this case?

[Yuki Akuma]

Yep. Being obvious with Charm Person tends to be a bad idea.

Obviously, the Wizard tells himself, your friend cast Charm Person on you because it was the best thing for you in the circumstances. After all, he's your friend, right? He wouldn't do anything to harm you.

[AirGuitarGod32]

#1. Charm Person isn't a good idea.

#2. Here's my combo of persuasion (both gestalt and non-gestalt)

Gestalt: Bard//Merchant 15/ Evangelist 5: Focus on Diplomacy, Knowledge: Nobility and Local, and Preformance: Oratory

Non-Gestalt: Merchant10/Bard5/Evangelist5: Same skill focuses, just without gestalt ease

[Zaydos]

In the first scenario unless they have spellcraft they know you've cast a spell, but they don't know what. Pretty easy to convince them it was a mental buff spell.

[Pigkappa]

"I cast you a mental buff spell just because I really like you even if we've never met before, not a spell to convince you to give me that item for free..."

Is that a -50 to Bluff, or just a -40? :smallfrown:

[Ravens_cry]

"I cast you a mental buff spell just because I really like you even if we've never met before, not a spell to convince you to give me that item for free..."

Is that a -50 to Bluff, or just a -40? :smallfrown:
-∞ in my books.

[Noble Savant]

"There was a terrible curse on you! I had only a few moments left to cure it before it killed you!"

[Saph]

"I cast you a mental buff spell just because I really like you even if we've never met before, not a spell to convince you to give me that item for free..."

Is that a -50 to Bluff, or just a -40? :smallfrown:

I think you get this response (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0043.html).

Qui-Gon: Right, which one of you is in charge?
Droid: State your business.
Qui-Gon: Let these men go. We're taking them to Croissant.
Panaka: Coruscant.
Qui-Gon: What he said.
Droid: Under what authority?
Qui-Gon: Don't you recognise me? I'm your commander!
Droid: My commander is a droid.
Qui-Gon: I'm undercover.
Droid: What is your serial number?
Qui-Gon: It's... uh... I roll for Bluff!
GM: There aren't enough dice in the world. They draw their weapons.

[alchemyprime]

Bluff opposed by both Spellcraft and Sense Motive, I'm afraid...

[Prime32]

"Whoa, thanks for charming me. I'm worried I'd have been too quick to distrust you otherwise, and that would be a terrible thing to happen with a guy as nice as you."


I think you get this response (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0043.html).

Qui-Gon: Right, which one of you is in charge?
Droid: State your business.
Qui-Gon: Let these men go. We're taking them to Croissant.
Panaka: Coruscant.
Qui-Gon: What he said.
Droid: Under what authority?
Qui-Gon: Don't you recognise me? I'm your commander!
Droid: My commander is a droid.
Qui-Gon: I'm undercover.
Droid: What is your serial number?
Qui-Gon: It's... uh... I roll for Bluff!
GM: There aren't enough dice in the world. They draw their weapons.I remember a story about a guy who tried to use a Bluff check to speak Elvish. He ended up telling an elven border guard that he had come to eat their children or something. :smallbiggrin:

[Manave_E_Sulanul]

Still spell is excellent for this. Your words just suddenly seem unnaturally attractive.

[Yuki Akuma]

Still spell is excellent for this. Your words just suddenly seem unnaturally attractive.

Unfortunately, when you make a saving throw, you know someone tried to do something to do.

[Optimystik]

Obviously, the Wizard tells himself, your friend cast Charm Person on you because it was the best thing for you in the circumstances. After all, he's your friend, right? He wouldn't do anything to harm you.

Eerie, yet accurate; this is exactly how I would play it.


Still spell is excellent for this. Your words just suddenly seem unnaturally attractive.

Unless you also have silent spell, that feat that lets you hide the verbal components of spells in normal speech, or the skill trick that hides them both, your target will still notice you slipping "An Xen Ex!" or "Kal Vas Mani!" into regular conversation.

[Evard]

"I cast you a mental buff spell just because I really like you even if we've never met before, not a spell to convince you to give me that item for free..."

Is that a -50 to Bluff, or just a -40? :smallfrown:


In MMORPG's that tends to be how things work -_-

[Thames]

If a wizard succeeded on his spellcraft to identify a charm person being cast on him, wouldn't he try to avoid and have the spell dispelled somehow - he might like them but he knows of the spell and its exact effects plus he has a high intelligence.

Finally why would you do it right in front of the target, charm person may only have a range of close but that is still at least 30 feet; do it from outside the shop before you come in, across the bar before you approach then its just a random person muttering to themselves and you can excuse looking at them weird as "eh its you i was trying to figure out if it was" or " do i know you ive been trying to figure out if i know you for ..."

[Flickerdart]

Eerie, yet accurate; this is exactly how I would play it.



Unless you also have silent spell, that feat that lets you hide the verbal components of spells in normal speech, or the skill trick that hides them both, your target will still notice you slipping "An Xen Ex!" or "Kal Vas Mani!" into regular conversation.
Conceal Spellcasting skill trick. "Hello there, barkeep, I say isn't the weather just *coughcharmpersoncough* wonderful?"

[Optimystik]

Conceal Spellcasting skill trick.

(a) That's the one I mentioned;
(b) Limited uses per day, so be careful who you discuss the weather with.

[ericgrau]

Based on casting rules, IIRC: You see the caster speak some unintelligible words and make some complex gestures, then you feel an unknown malevolant force in your head but you manage to will it away.

Yeah, the caster isn't exactly looking like a saint here. Either you need some crazy bluff action and someone who has never seen a caster in their life, or it's time to fight.

[Sinfire Titan]

(a) That's the one I mentioned;
(b) Limited uses per day, so be careful who you discuss the weather with.

1/encounter, IIRC.

[Yuki Akuma]

1/encounter, IIRC.

Out of combat, about 1/five minutes. So it is limited uses per day.

288 uses per day.

[good_lookin_gus]

If your spell fails, then it's Plan B. You do have a Plan B, right? Someone suggested taking advantage of the spell's range. Do that.

[Optimystik]

Out of combat, about 1/five minutes. So it is limited uses per day.

288 uses per day.

Charm Person is an attack, making it the "encounter" ruling rather than the "minute" ruling. Better hope you don't have to charm two people in the same room.

[pffh]

If your spell fails, then it's Plan B. You do have a Plan B, right? Someone suggested taking advantage of the spell's range. Do that.

Isn't plan B always kill everyone?

[good_lookin_gus]

Isn't plan B always kill everyone?

:smallconfused:???

I thought that was the main objective.

[olentu]

One could just use slight of hand to conceal the spellcasting without the trick.

[Yuki Akuma]

One could just use slight of hand to conceal the spellcasting without the trick.

But then you're still firmly speaking weird arcane gibberish halfway through the conversation.

[Deth Muncher]

But then you're still firmly speaking weird arcane gibberish halfway through the conversation.

Claim it's a condition. If they question you on it, be hurt and offended. People have a desire to please, so if you act hurt, they're likely to drop it.

Unless, y'know, the DM doesn't want them to.

[Kylarra]

Claim it's a condition. If they question you on it, be hurt and offended. People have a desire to please, so if you act hurt, they're likely to drop it.

Unless, y'know, the DM doesn't want them to.You can have glibness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glibness.htm) up so that they believe you.:smallwink:

[taltamir]

I Would ask how they knew that you cast a spell on them and not on yourself, but apparently you feel "a malevolent force you will away" or something...

My favorite is stilled + silenced spell... you look "really hard" at him and thats all it takes to cast the spell.

[Yuki Akuma]

I Would ask how they knew that you cast a spell on them and not on yourself, but apparently you feel "a malevolent force you will away" or something...

My favorite is stilled + silenced spell... you look "really hard" at him and thats all it takes to cast the spell.

Actually, you basically just stare off into space when you cast a stilled-silent spell with no material components. Which is why you still provoke an AoO.

[Tanuki Tales]

Unfortunately, when you make a saving throw, you know someone tried to do something to do.

Except for the fact a Saving Throw is a game mechanic. NPCs need to break the fourth wall to know about things that don't truly exist in the world they're aware of and at that point the DM is skewing it against the player.

[Xenogears]

Except for the fact a Saving Throw is a game mechanic. NPCs need to break the fourth wall to know about things that don't truly exist in the world they're aware of and at that point the DM is skewing it against the player.

Unless the rules say that they are aware of failing a save...which IIRC they do.

[Tanuki Tales]

Unless the rules say that they are aware of failing a save...which IIRC they do.

Quote please?

[Xenogears]

Quote please?

If I could have quoted ti begin with I wouldn't have had to write "IIRC" would I have?

*IIRC means If I Remember Correctly in case you don't know.

[Tanuki Tales]

If I could have quoted ti begin with I wouldn't have had to write "IIRC" would I have?

*IIRC means If I Remember Correctly in case you don't know.

I know what the short hand means, thank you very much.

Thus I asking for a quote, in case you didn't know.

[Yuki Akuma]

I know what the short hand means, thank you very much.

Thus I asking for a quote, in case you didn't know.

See succeeding on a saving throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow), and from now on just trust that when five people quote a rule they know what the hell they're talking about.

So, yeah. That's not breaking the fourth wall. That is, in fact, the way non-physical magic works in the setting.

[Xenogears]

I know what the short hand means, thank you very much.

Thus I asking for a quote, in case you didn't know.

But thats illogical. My statement very clearly implied I was going off memory. I mean if someone said "I think I've got maybe 40 bucks in the bank" would you immediately ask them for a bank statement out of their pocket? Not likely.

[Tanuki Tales]

See succeeding on a saving throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow), and from now on just trust that when five people quote a rule they know what the hell they're talking about.

So, yeah. That's not breaking the fourth wall. That is, in fact, the way non-physical magic works in the setting.

That says nothing about said mook knowing that the caster is the source of this feeling. Getting a cold chill or a bad feeling randomly doesn't mean you blame the nearest person.

[Tanuki Tales]

But thats illogical. My statement very clearly implied I was going off memory. I mean if someone said "I think I've got maybe 40 bucks in the bank" would you immediately ask them for a bank statement out of their pocket? Not likely.

No, but I'd ask them to try and get one to actually prove they had that money.

[Xenogears]

No, but I'd ask them to try and get one to actually prove they had that money.

Sure. You might say. Hey next time you get a chance check that out. But what you did is analogous to telling that person to go get a bank statement immediately.

Also. Chances are when some guy over there waves his hand about and says some gibberish then you get a feeling like some evil force was pushed away the very least I'm gonna do is stay away from them and put them in my "massive distrust" catagory.

[Tanuki Tales]

Sure. You might say. Hey next time you get a chance check that out. But what you did is analogous to telling that person to go get a bank statement immediately.

Also. Chances are when some guy over there waves his hand about and says some gibberish then you get a feeling like some evil force was pushed away the very least I'm gonna do is stay away from them and put them in my "massive distrust" catagory.

The comment came up over a Stilled Charm Person. Not necessarily in ear shot. And even if so, its easily explained away by saying the words in another language you assume the mook doesn't know so you can just explain it away as forgetting to switch to common.

[Abd al-Azrad]

Also. Chances are when some guy over there waves his hand about and says some gibberish then you get a feeling like some evil force was pushed away the very least I'm gonna do is stay away from them and put them in my "massive distrust" catagory.

Indeed. If you are careful with your casting, all a target will know is the feeling of a hostile force or tingle, with nothing to direct their subsequent paranoia against. But I thought the setup of this scenario was that you were casting on a target who could see you, or who succeeded on a Spellcraft check against you. In both cases, they would have a pretty strong feeling that the guy waving his arms and muttering frightening nonsense might be somehow connected.

I do feel it pertinent to point out that this is a first-level spell we're talking about. It ain't foolproof.

[Xenogears]

The comment came up over a Stilled Charm Person. Not necessarily in ear shot. And even if so, its easily explained away by saying the words in another language you assume the mook doesn't know so you can just explain it away as forgetting to switch to common.

Actually your comment was directed to the following words:
Unfortunately, when you make a saving throw, you know someone tried to do something to do.

Yeah. They do know that someone tried something. So your original point was proven wrong. You can choose to modify your point and continue arguing but your original point was in fact proven wrong already.

[Lysander]

If they succeed on their saving throw they feel a hostile tingle. They don't learn that someone tried to charm them. If anything that would probably just shift the person's attitude towards you more hostile by one level, and make several sense motive checks against you.

Now a wizard might notice you're casting charm person and view that as hostile. Fortunately the spell lays out what happens when you're attacking the target:
If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.

There's a way to avoid giving the wizard (or anyone with high spellcraft) this bonus. To identify what you're doing they must either see or hear the spell component. So you don't cast it face to face. Have an ally talk to the target to distract them. Then sneak behind them (so they can't see the somatic component) and cast the spell at its maximum range.

Now they're going to hear you because the base DC to hear speech is 0. But to actually understand it you need to beat your check by 10. What you can do is increase the DC of the listen check to understand the verbal component, so they can't make their spellcraft check. Distracted by your ally is +5. At maximum range the distance adds +2 at level one, and more at higher caster levels. Which means that there's a minimum DC 17 listen check just to have the chance at having a spellcraft check.

[Tanuki Tales]

Actually your comment was directed to the following words:
Unfortunately, when you make a saving throw, you know someone tried to do something to do.

Yeah. They do know that someone tried something. So your original point was proven wrong. You can choose to modify your point and continue arguing but your original point was in fact proven wrong already.

No, actually, I wasn't wrong. They don't know they had to make a saving throw at all, whether it was a failed one or not. The actual game mechanic, which NPCs and PCs alike do not know exist, does in fact go unknown. The only in game application of the save is a minor effect that unless personally used against a player by the DM does not give away the caster unless said caster was being an idiot.

[Yuki Akuma]

No, actually, I wasn't wrong. They don't know they had to make a saving throw at all, whether it was a failed one or not. The actual game mechanic, which NPCs and PCs alike do not know exist, does in fact go unknown. The only in game application of the save is a minor effect that unless personally used against a player by the DM does not give away the caster unless said caster was being an idiot.

...I said they know someone tried to do something to them. No of course they don't know that the spellcaster specifically cast a spell on them!

So yes, you are wrong. You are arguing about something I did not say.

[Tanuki Tales]

...I said they know someone tried to do something to them. No of course they don't know that the spellcaster specifically cast a spell on them!

So yes, you are wrong. You are arguing about something I did not say.

No, I'm not, since you're insinuating a chill or feeling a negative "force" on yourself insinuates someone did something to you.

[Xenogears]

No, actually, I wasn't wrong. They don't know they had to make a saving throw at all, whether it was a failed one or not. The actual game mechanic, which NPCs and PCs alike do not know exist, does in fact go unknown. The only in game application of the save is a minor effect that unless personally used against a player by the DM does not give away the caster unless said caster was being an idiot.

But the person you were quoting when you made your initial argument didn't say that they did. What they said was that the person knew that someone had done something. They did not claim that it would give the caster away (barring seeing them cast the spell). So the fact that they would sense that something had happened was what you were arguing against. And your position was proven wrong. Now you are trying to claim that they wouldn't know that it was the caster who did it, but that is not the original claim you made. You changed your stance mid-discussion.

[Tanuki Tales]

But the person you were quoting when you made your initial argument didn't say that they did. What they said was that the person knew that someone had done something. They did not claim that it would give the caster away (barring seeing them cast the spell). So the fact that they would sense that something had happened was what you were arguing against. And your position was proven wrong. Now you are trying to claim that they wouldn't know that it was the caster who did it, but that is not the original claim you made. You changed your stance mid-discussion.

But they did claim that a sentient force did a quantifiable action to said mook simply because said mook had an odd feeling at random.

And no it hasn't been. Neither of you have manage to prove that having a random feeling equates knowing that someone did something outside of DM's active playing against a PC or NPC, etc.

No, no I didn't.

[Yuki Akuma]

They feel a hostile force. That pretty strongly indicates that something is hostile.

[Xenogears]

But they did claim that a sentient force did a quantifiable action to said mook simply because said mook had an odd feeling at random.

And no it hasn't been. Neither of you have manage to prove that having a random feeling equates knowing that someone did something outside of DM's active playing against a PC or NPC, etc.

No, no I didn't.

Well If I felt a "hostile force" in a world where there is FrigginMagic then I would think that someone had used some FrigginMagic on me. Most people would. It's very very logical.

[Tanuki Tales]

They feel a hostile force. That pretty strongly indicates that something is hostile.

But without witnessing an obvious source of said force they don't know of it being more then an odd feeling, possibly caused by lack of sleep or indigestion, etc.

Barring the caster acting stupid, which I've already mentioned.

[Another_Poet]

My bard/wizard is in front of a guy. I cast Charm Person on that guy, and his saving throw succeeds. Now, if he isn't extremely stupid, he's just understood that I cast a spell on him, and it didn't work. Won't that make him extremely angry against me? If so, a failed Charm Person will almost always result in the contrary effect.

According to the rules the target feels something is strange and may suspect a spell but does not know what kind of spell. You could even make a regular bluff check to try to convince the person it was a helpful spell.



Another scenario. My bard is in front of a wizard. I cast Charm Person, and the saving throw fails. The wizard is Charmed, but he rolls a Spellcraft check and understands that I cast Charm Person. His aptitude should be friendly toward me, but he knows that is because of the spell, and therefore has really good reason to be angry against me and to avoid me. How does the spell work in this case?

The Spellcraft DC is 15+spell level and the wizard has to have seen you cast it. If he fails or didn't actually see you cast it, he cannot be sure what spell it is. He can only guess.

But it really doesn't matter. The wizard can rationalize it however he wants - he still thinks you are his friend.

[Yuki Akuma]

But without witnessing an obvious source of said force they don't know of it being more then an odd feeling, possibly caused by lack of sleep or indigestion, etc.

Barring the caster acting stupid, which I've already mentioned.

...I give up.

You win.

Happy? Now can we change the freaking subject?

[Xenogears]

But without witnessing an obvious source of said force they don't know of it being more then an odd feeling, possibly caused by lack of sleep or indigestion, etc.

Barring the caster acting stupid, which I've already mentioned.

No. Last I checked my bowels never sent a "hostile force" at me. Neither has my insomnia.

[Tanuki Tales]

Well If I felt a "hostile force" in a world where there is FrigginMagic then I would think that someone had used some FrigginMagic on me. Most people would. It's very very logical.

Assuming in a setting where magic is both prevalent in most areas and encountered commonly.

[Tanuki Tales]

...I give up.

You win.

Happy? Now can we change the freaking subject?

You shouldn't say questionable things if you don't want to debate the implication of them.

And I believe the subject of this thread is the repercussions of Charm Person failing, which we were discussing.

[Tanuki Tales]

No. Last I checked my bowels never sent a "hostile force" at me. Neither has my insomnia.

The point is Guard A doesn't automatically think "Someone must have tried to do something to me, I must now be hostile and paranoid to strangers!" because they felt an odd feeling with no apparent reason. That's the result of bad DMing.

[Xenogears]

The point is Guard A doesn't automatically think "Someone must have tried to do something to me, I must now be hostile and paranoid to strangers!" because they felt an odd feeling with no apparent reason. That's the result of bad DMing.

It's not an "odd feeling". Its a "hostile feeling". Here's the definition of hostile:

Main Entry: hos·tile
Pronunciation: \ˈhäs-təl, -ˌtī(-ə)l\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin hostilis, from hostis
Date: 1580
1 a : of or relating to an enemy <hostile fire> b : marked by malevolence <a hostile act> c : openly opposed or resisting <a hostile critic> <hostile to new ideas> d (1) : not hospitable <plants growing in a hostile environment> (2) : having an intimidating, antagonistic, or offensive nature <a hostile workplace>
2 a : of or relating to the opposing party in a legal controversy <a hostile witness> b : adverse to the interests of a property owner or corporation management <a hostile takeover>

Definition 2 has to do with legal things so we can ignore that one. Definition 1 is either relating to an enemy, marked by malevolence, openly opposed, not hospitable, or aving an intimidating nature.

Yeah all of those should make the damn random guard paranoid.

[Tanuki Tales]

It's not an "odd feeling". Its a "hostile feeling". Here's the definition of hostile:

Main Entry: hos·tile
Pronunciation: \ˈhäs-təl, -ˌtī(-ə)l\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin hostilis, from hostis
Date: 1580
1 a : of or relating to an enemy <hostile fire> b : marked by malevolence <a hostile act> c : openly opposed or resisting <a hostile critic> <hostile to new ideas> d (1) : not hospitable <plants growing in a hostile environment> (2) : having an intimidating, antagonistic, or offensive nature <a hostile workplace>
2 a : of or relating to the opposing party in a legal controversy <a hostile witness> b : adverse to the interests of a property owner or corporation management <a hostile takeover>

Definition 2 has to do with legal things so we can ignore that one. Definition 1 is either relating to an enemy, marked by malevolence, openly opposed, not hospitable, or aving an intimidating nature.

Yeah all of those should make the damn random guard paranoid.

I could childishly show you the definition of odd in this rebuttal and explain how that pertains to the discussion at hand, but I won't.

Jumpy? Possibly. But outwardly paranoid at any stranger he next meets? That's a long stretch.

[SethFahad]

Charm person??? Meh...

For what? To tell you some secret?
Incapacitate him.Tie him up. Use a spell to make him tell the truth (zone of truth, discern lies etc.) or Intimidation. Kill him afterwards, and throw him in a shallow grave.

Grand you access in a building?
Incapacitate him.Tie him up. Torture him. Make fun of him. Kill him afterwards, and throw him in a shallow grave. Then proceed and enter the building.

To sell you stuff in better price?
Just kill the s.o.b. and "buy" everything for free!

To help you take advantage in battle?
Dispatch him. Mutilate his corpse. Use his bloody remains to strike fear to your enemies hearts (chew them if you must...). Slay them all. Win.

My "Big Black Tome of Evil Do's and Don'ts for Easy Living" (c). :smallwink:

[Lord Thurlvin]

I could childishly show you the definition of odd in this rebuttal and explain how that pertains to the discussion at hand, but I won't.

Jumpy? Possibly. But outwardly paranoid at any stranger he next meets? That's a long stretch.

The distinction between "odd" and "hostile" is fairly important in this case. A "hostile" feeling would clue you in that some (probably unseen) force was trying to do something to you, and would make you more on edge than an "odd" feeling.

[Lysander]

Well, Charm person has one very useful aspect over simply killing them. It causes someone to help you out with all their ability, within whatever they're usually willing to do for friends.

You: Charm Person!
Enemy Wizard: *Charmed* Hey, I like you! You're all right.
You: Cool. Now cast all your buff spells on me and my allies. Now that we're friends you have no enemies, so you don't need them for yourself!
Enemy Wizard: Sure! *numerous buff spells*
You: Where do you keep your spellbook by the way? We should exchange spells while I'm in town.
Enemy Wizard: Ok! I have a decoy book filled with explosive runes locked up in my study. Pretty smart right? The real book is in an invisible bag of holding hanging from the ceiling.
You: Thanks buddy. Hey, why don't you take a nap. I'm throwing a party later and you're invited, so you should be well rested cause we're gonna dance all night!
Enemy Wizard: Ok. *closes eyes*
You: Nighty night.
Fighter Ally: *coup de grace*

[SethFahad]

Well, Charm person has one very useful aspect over simply killing them. It causes someone to help you out with all their ability, within whatever they're usually willing to do for friends.

You: Charm Person!
Enemy Wizard: *Charmed* Hey, I like you! You're all right.
You: Cool. Now cast all your buff spells on me and my allies. Now that we're friends you have no enemies, so you don't need them for yourself!
Enemy Wizard: Sure! *numerous buff spells*
You: Where do you keep your spellbook by the way? We should exchange spells while I'm in town.
Enemy Wizard: Ok! I have a decoy book filled with explosive runes locked up in my study. Pretty smart right? The real book is in an invisible bag of holding hanging from the ceiling.
You: Thanks buddy. Hey, why don't you take a nap. I'm throwing a party later and you're invited, so you should be well rested cause we're gonna dance all night!
Enemy Wizard: Ok. *closes eyes*
You: Nighty night.
Fighter Ally: *coup de grace*

Smart. And sneaky. I like it. Alot. But...
For more straightforward types though, incapacitate him.Tie him up. Use a spell to make him tell the truth (zone of truth, discern lies etc.) or Intimidation. Kill him afterwards (using coup de grace if you like), and throw him in a shallow grave.

But charming a wizard (high will saves) is hard, plus his has spellcraft so he knows what you are up to. And if you think you've got better DC than he has will save, then probably you've already got better spells than him...so kill him just for xp.

[Lord Thurlvin]

Smart. And sneaky. I like it. Alot. But...
For more straightforward types though, incapacitate him.Tie him up. Use a spell to make him tell the truth (zone of truth, discern lies etc.) or Intimidation. Kill him afterwards (using coup de grace if you like), and throw him in a shallow grave.

But charming a wizard (high will saves) is hard, plus his has spellcraft so he knows what you are up to. And if you think you've got better DC than he has will save, then probably you've already got better spells than him...so kill him just for xp.

It still won't get you all the buffs, and don't Zone of Truth and Discern Lies also allow will saves?

[SethFahad]

It still won't get you all the buffs, and don't Zone of Truth and Discern Lies also allow will saves?

True. No buffs. Oh well...
True. Will saves. Intimidate him, usually his cha is low.

I don't disagree with you. You are right! I'm just presenting the chaotic destroyers point of view :smalltongue:

As for the high will save, you can allways use poison (fortitude saves are always low) to lower his wisdom score, and then cast any mind affecting spell you like.

Just one thing. In the end... kill the bloody bastard...:smallmad:

[Setra]

Jumpy? Possibly. But outwardly paranoid at any stranger he next meets? That's a long stretch.
Why exactly is it a long stretch?

[Yuki Akuma]

Why exactly is it a long stretch?

I don't think he really realises what a guard is for, and how he'd be trained in a setting where people flinging magic about is a daily occurrence.

[Yzzyx]

My bard/wizard is in front of a guy. I cast Charm Person on that guy, and his saving throw succeeds. Now, if he isn't extremely stupid, he's just understood that I cast a spell on him, and it didn't work. Won't that make him extremely angry against me? If so, a failed Charm Person will almost always result in the contrary effect.


Another scenario. My bard is in front of a wizard. I cast Charm Person, and the saving throw fails. The wizard is Charmed, but he rolls a Spellcraft check and understands that I cast Charm Person. His aptitude should be friendly toward me, but he knows that is because of the spell, and therefore has really good reason to be angry against me and to avoid me. How does the spell work in this case?

Situation #1: That depends on your definition of "extremely stupid." An average peasant will feel a hostile tingle and most likely ignore it. Someone with more experience with magic/saving throws (adventurer, adept, well trained guard, anyone who has succeeded on two or three saving throws, whatever) will feel a hostile tingle, recognize it as a successful saving throw (shrugging off evil magic, close enough), and likely get suspicious. They won't know you did anything, but their opinion might lower a step anyway, depending on their personality. Anyone who actually sees you waving your arms and chanting and then feels a hostile tingle will likely blame you (more paranoid groups don't even need the hostile tingle), regardless of your involvement, however, so avoid that.

Situation #2: The wizard knows you cast Charm Person on him. He also knows that you are his best friend. He will put his vast intellect to use finding a way to reconcile these two facts. Note that the spell gives a bonus if the wizard or his allies are being attacked, and Charm Person counts as an attack.

[Storm Bringer]

i think what matters most is how 'activly' a persin resists in a will save. If it;s a case of them consiously asserting thier will ("thog does NOT like puny wizard!"/"thog knows their is no wall thier!"), then the feeling would be very hard to confuse with anything else.

if it's just somthing they do without thinking, then they may no recognise they made a save, as Bendraesar argues ("puny wizard makes thog fuzzy as he stuggles helplessly..../"are you ignoring orcs their behind glostly wall?").

[Tanuki Tales]

I don't think he really realises what a guard is for, and how he'd be trained in a setting where people flinging magic about is a daily occurrence.

That is a case by case basis and a DM's choice to make a setting where a guard would more likely be against the player for no other apparent reason then the DM playing against the players.

[Tanuki Tales]

Why exactly is it a long stretch?

It's a long stretch that a simple "bad" feeling would make a guard up and alert about anyone who approaches him or even make his diplomatic relation drop a step. I mean, if you like DMing one dimensional characters who are always out to get your players (or your casters), that's the DMs choice.

[Tanuki Tales]

The distinction between "odd" and "hostile" is fairly important in this case. A "hostile" feeling would clue you in that some (probably unseen) force was trying to do something to you, and would make you more on edge than an "odd" feeling.

It would make you, at best, jumpy unless you were penchant to paranoia.

[Xenogears]

That is a case by case basis and a DM's choice to make a setting where a guard would more likely be against the player for no other apparent reason then the DM playing against the players.

The default setting is fairly high magic. Everyone but bob the commoner has probably seen magic and even bob has probably heard of it. And once again (in the next two posts) you are misconstruing what hostile means. That's why I put up a definition. It means with ill intent. If I felt a malevolent force and lived in a world with magic I would assume it was magic. Honestly. The only times I've heard people talking about feeling a malevolent force is on those ghost hunter shows. It's not a common feeling. It certainly would NOT be mistaken for insomnia or bowel problems as you suggested earlier.

If I thought someone was trying to use magic on me I would be suspicious of everyone that I did not personally know after that. Maybe even some friends too.

[Tanuki Tales]

The default setting is fairly high magic. Everyone but bob the commoner has probably seen magic and even bob has probably heard of it. And once again (in the next two posts) you are misconstruing what hostile means. That's why I put up a definition. It means with ill intent. If I felt a malevolent force and lived in a world with magic I would assume it was magic. Honestly. The only times I've heard people talking about feeling a malevolent force is on those ghost hunter shows. It's not a common feeling. It certainly would NOT be mistaken for insomnia or bowel problems as you suggested earlier.

If I thought someone was trying to use magic on me I would be suspicious of everyone that I did not personally know after that. Maybe even some friends too.

You would assume because, as a reader/player/etc. of the Dungeons and dragons setting you have read all of the spells in at least core and have a competent knowledge of how certain game concepts work. So your metagaming knowledge would taint any actual response, meaning absolutely nothing.

And in all honesty, you can't dismiss a hostile feeling as such since you can't prove that a "hostile feeling" is so incredible that it could not be dismissed as such.

This entire conversation all you have done is advocate a DM using a small bit of fluff to the detriment of his players with no actual solid ground to do so other then for the DM to work against his players.

[Xenogears]

You would assume because, as a reader/player/etc. of the Dungeons and dragons setting you have read all of the spells in at least core and have a competent knowledge of how certain game concepts work. So your metagaming knowledge would taint any actual response, meaning absolutely nothing.

And in all honesty, you can't dismiss a hostile feeling as such since you can't prove that a "hostile feeling" is so incredible that it could not be dismissed as such.

This entire conversation all you have done is advocate a DM using a small bit of fluff to the detriment of his players with no actual solid ground to do so other then for the DM to work against his players.

No. I would expect the players (even while not metagaming and keeping IC) to react the same way. I am not advocating the DM screwing them over. I am presenting what I feel is the most logical result of bloody well casting a mind control spell on someone in front of them.

I can dismiss your comparisions because to call them a "hostile force" is such a twisting of the definition of the word as to render it nigh useless. Hostile. With Malice. Ill intent. I can honestly not think of any situation in real life that would make me feel a hostile force. It doesn't say a "feeling". It says a "force". This heavily implies you feel some kind of hostile presence in your mind. Damn right thats gonna make me act paranoid.

[shadowmage]

I have to agree with the others a "hostile force" is not something that sends a shiver down your back or a case of heart burn. As it is a will save i would guess it is more like a headache that suddenly comes on and just as quickly goes away. Which is not normal. Now as to going after the stranger in front of me, no I might now, depending on the mooks int.

It would depend on the situation the mook was in. A man standing in front of me waving his hands and chanting, yes I would think he did it, a man standing in front of me staring hard and maybe talking at me in a strange lang yes. Remember as said above a silent/still spell still Provokes an attack of Opportunity.

So let me see I got this headache suddenly that came and went and this man is staring at me really really hard, so hard I could slap him and he would not stop me. Yea he is up to something.

Now if there was 2 or 3 people standing around, maybe the mook might not notice the stare or if the mook had a low Int yes. But at times it is perfectly normal for mooks to react.

[Tanuki Tales]

No. I would expect the players (even while not metagaming and keeping IC) to react the same way. I am not advocating the DM screwing them over. I am presenting what I feel is the most logical result of bloody well casting a mind control spell on someone in front of them.

I can dismiss your comparisions because to call them a "hostile force" is such a twisting of the definition of the word as to render it nigh useless. Hostile. With Malice. Ill intent. I can honestly not think of any situation in real life that would make me feel a hostile force. It doesn't say a "feeling". It says a "force". This heavily implies you feel some kind of hostile presence in your mind. Damn right thats gonna make me act paranoid.

A stilled spell has no somatic component to the spell. And as I said, unless the caster is being an idiot, its not too difficult to disguise the verbal component of the spell. So unless the Guard has ranks in Spellcraft or Knowledge (Arcana) he would have no reason to suspect a spell had just been cast, let alone by someone nearby.

Cautious? Sure. Jumpy? Why not. But straight out unfriendly (the diplomancy state) to absolutely everyone you run into from that point on? Like I said, if your character is penchant to this, then that's fine. But if the DM just says so because the NPC passed their save against a PC's spell?

[Tanuki Tales]

I have to agree with the others a "hostile force" is not something that sends a shiver down your back or a case of heart burn. As it is a will save i would guess it is more like a headache that suddenly comes on and just as quickly goes away. Which is not normal. Now as to going after the stranger in front of me, no I might now, depending on the mooks int.

It would depend on the situation the mook was in. A man standing in front of me waving his hands and chanting, yes I would think he did it, a man standing in front of me staring hard and maybe talking at me in a strange lang yes. Remember as said above a silent/still spell still Provokes an attack of Opportunity.

So let me see I got this headache suddenly that came and went and this man is staring at me really really hard, so hard I could slap him and he would not stop me. Yea he is up to something.

Now if there was 2 or 3 people standing around, maybe the mook might not notice the stare or if the mook had a low Int yes. But at times it is perfectly normal for mooks to react.

Charm Person has a casting range minimum of 25 feet and the original scenario never said the caster was directly in front of the mook, just "in front". So until further clarification is made by the OP on exactly how far "in front" of the mook he is there's no guarantee that the mook would even notice.

Of course assuming he would take the side effect of passing the spell as a reason to be suddenly alert to everything in his surroundings.

[Optimystik]

That is a case by case basis and a DM's choice to make a setting where a guard would more likely be against the player for no other apparent reason then the DM playing against the players.

It's not necessarily metagaming, particularly (a) in a high-magic environment, and (b) if the PC has used such tactics before. The guards could get wind of someone charming people without knowing who.

Also, you should try to avoid triple-posting, just edit your original reply.

[Xenogears]

A stilled spell has no somatic component to the spell. And as I said, unless the caster is being an idiot, its not too difficult to disguise the verbal component of the spell. So unless the Guard has ranks in Spellcraft or Knowledge (Arcana) he would have no reason to suspect a spell had just been cast, let alone by someone nearby.

Cautious? Sure. Jumpy? Why not. But straight out unfriendly (the diplomancy state) to absolutely everyone you run into from that point on? Like I said, if your character is penchant to this, then that's fine. But if the DM just says so because the NPC passed their save against a PC's spell?

Verbal components? Depends. RAW they can be anything. It could be like OoTS where you say the spells name. That would be a dead giveaway. It could be like many wizard stories and have you loudly chant words of some dead language. That'd either make them think your casting a spell or crazy. Either way should make them less friendly. Since any option is possible it could be the wizard saying "beer please." That wouldn't draw suspicion but is an unlikely interpretation.

Well the default example in this thread was a guard IIRC. They in fact SHOULD be unfriendly to everyone if they think that someone is casting a spell on them. They hafta be paranoid. It's their job after all. If I had designed a super trusting NPC then sure he wouldn't change much. An average one would probably drop to either indifferent or unfriendly and a paranoid one would be a hair away from hostile on everyone. Thats paranoia for you.

[Glass Mouse]

You would assume because, as a reader/player/etc. of the Dungeons and dragons setting you have read all of the spells in at least core and have a competent knowledge of how certain game concepts work. So your metagaming knowledge would taint any actual response, meaning absolutely nothing.

And in all honesty, you can't dismiss a hostile feeling as such since you can't prove that a "hostile feeling" is so incredible that it could not be dismissed as such.

This entire conversation all you have done is advocate a DM using a small bit of fluff to the detriment of his players with no actual solid ground to do so other then for the DM to work against his players.

I take it you've recently experienced a very bad DM who liked to screw people over?
Yeah. Only one thing to learn from that: Don't game with douchebags.


Anyway.

I very much agree with Xenogears. It's like when I walk the street, and I suddenly think I see someone I know. I don't know about you, but in such cases I usually stop and look around, trying to catch another glimpse.
Or when I've just been shopping, and the cashier makes a disadvantageous (for me) mistake, I tend to look more carefully at every receipt for a while.
Or when I accidentally stepped on a snail (I hate killing anything, even bugs), I watch my step for the next kilometers.

It's not often someone tries to stab me (never yet, fortunately) but if it one day happened out of the blue, I betcha I'd start looking over my shoulder for the next month.

Alas, I'm 99,999% sure I'd have the same reaction if I suddenly felt something I'd recognize as malevolent magic. If something bad happens, you instinctively take measures to prevent it from happening again. It's human nature.


Note, I'm not talking about the "OMG someone cast magic on me, I'D BETTER KILL EVERY STRANGER JUST TO MAKE SURE!!!!" approach.
The "****, someone's out to get me, I'd better be careful and not trust anyone right away" works fine, too.

[Tanuki Tales]

It's not necessarily metagaming, particularly (a) in a high-magic environment, and (b) if the PC has used such tactics before. The guards could get wind of someone charming people without knowing who.

Also, you should try to avoid triple-posting, just edit your original reply.

A is a possible setting, but once again is not automatically assumed and needs to be clarified along with the PC's original position by the OP.

B on the other hand is an X factor that wasn't in the original scenario.

[Optimystik]

A is a possible setting, but once again is not automatically assumed and needs to be clarified along with the PC's original position by the OP.

B on the other hand is an X factor that wasn't in the original scenario.

I agree that such things should be spelled out to the players beforehand. But the mere fact that it isn't, does not mean the PCs should be rewarded for walking up to a guard in broad daylight, grinning and proceeding to charm them without fanfare. (Or more accurately with, in this case.)

[taltamir]

I think that if you walk up to a guard and start chanting and waving your hands and he then feels a malevolent force in his mind which he pushes away he should assume you cast a bad spell on him.
Or that you are a witch trying to curse him and that calls for a little lynching.

If you cast a stilled silence spell from across the room while the guard is paying attention to another person and not you, that he might dismiss the malevolent force as paranoia (unless experienced with making saving throws against mind magic) and even if not should not be able to pin point YOU as the source (would be hilarious to do if he is speaking to someone you dislike).

If you use a stilled but not silenced spell on someone he might think it is a spell, or he might think it is foreign language, especially dependent on how you use it (say, turn to your friend and speak the spell) and whether he has spellcraft... whether he ties his "feeling of malevolent force" to being a spell and not just him disliking your "nasty foreign tongue" depends on a variety of factors and can go either way...

As for the whole thing about getting a wizard to buff you and your friends, give you his spellbook, etc... Just because he thinks you are best buddies doesn't mean he is stupid and not paranoid... proper responses should be "friend, I am a bit concerned here, you are scaring me, why do you want to know?" and "I am sorry best friend, but I wouldn't even tell my (non/hypothetical) wife and children where it is hidden, because it can always be an illusion or someone might rip the knowledge from their minds... what if I tell you and then someone casts charm person on you?"

keep in mind that unreasonable demands will be refused, will require persuasion rolls, and might even break the spell if they are too unreasonable.


The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.

[Tanuki Tales]

I take it you've recently experienced a very bad DM who liked to screw people over?
Yeah. Only one thing to learn from that: Don't game with douchebags.


Anyway.

I very much agree with Xenogears. It's like when I walk the street, and I suddenly think I see someone I know. I don't know about you, but in such cases I usually stop and look around, trying to catch another glimpse.
Or when I've just been shopping, and the cashier makes a disadvantageous (for me) mistake, I tend to look more carefully at every receipt for a while.
Or when I accidentally stepped on a snail (I hate killing anything, even bugs), I watch my step for the next kilometers.

It's not often someone tries to stab me (never yet, fortunately) but if it one day happened out of the blue, I betcha I'd start looking over my shoulder for the next month.

Alas, I'm 99,999% sure I'd have the same reaction if I suddenly felt something I'd recognize as malevolent magic. If something bad happens, you instinctively take measures to prevent it from happening again. It's human nature.


Note, I'm not talking about the "OMG someone cast magic on me, I'D BETTER KILL EVERY STRANGER JUST TO MAKE SURE!!!!" approach.
The "****, someone's out to get me, I'd better be careful and not trust anyone right away" works fine, too.

But that's assuming that you can recognize the feeling as magic being cast on you. Since a hostile force is not actually defined in the rules and its not even likely that everyone will readily agree on how feeling a hostile force exactly feels, I'm going to go with Shadowmage's headache idea. A head ache is an extremely common ailment that is brought upon by a multitude of things. What suddenly must narrow all that down to being magic? And even if we'll say its a high magic environment, that must mean mages in a city are highly common and then what leads the guard to believe it must be a nearby magic user in a city that could contain dozens if not more of such entities?

[Tanuki Tales]

Verbal components? Depends. RAW they can be anything. It could be like OoTS where you say the spells name. That would be a dead giveaway. It could be like many wizard stories and have you loudly chant words of some dead language. That'd either make them think your casting a spell or crazy. Either way should make them less friendly. Since any option is possible it could be the wizard saying "beer please." That wouldn't draw suspicion but is an unlikely interpretation.

Well the default example in this thread was a guard IIRC. They in fact SHOULD be unfriendly to everyone if they think that someone is casting a spell on them. They hafta be paranoid. It's their job after all. If I had designed a super trusting NPC then sure he wouldn't change much. An average one would probably drop to either indifferent or unfriendly and a paranoid one would be a hair away from hostile on everyone. Thats paranoia for you.

Yes, the original situation was with a guard. But whether the guard starts indifferent or unfriendly depends on the DM, but for the sake of arguement, let's say he's already unfriendly to everyone and anyone. Once again though, there is no reason that a guard must automatically think that a feeling that comes out of the blue, even a hostile one, must originate from a mystical source. He'll be wary of everything for maybe the rest of the day but if he's a guard who's not totally incompetent then this is how he should normally act so passing his will save shouldn't have him acting any different for when a PC tries to interact with him.

[Tanuki Tales]

I agree that such things should be spelled out to the players beforehand. But the mere fact that it isn't, does not mean the PCs should be rewarded for walking up to a guard in broad daylight, grinning and proceeding to charm them without fanfare. (Or more accurately with, in this case.)

Except for the fact that the actual scenario has not been fully defined by the OP. "In front" doesn't not necessarily mean directly in front of the guard. As I said earlier, Charm Person has a minimum possible range of 25 feet. So the PC could be standing down the hall or across a crowded street from the guard when he casts and fails to affect the guard.

Of course this is but conjecture on both of our parts since the OP did not fully define the scenario.

[taltamir]

I have felt "malevolence" in my head plenty of times... insomnia, general malaise, a variety of diseases and conditions... Now, I have no experience with magic (since it doesn't exist) so I cannot tell you if it is the same feeling as making a will save...


Except for the fact that the actual scenario has not been fully defined by the OP. "In front" doesn't not necessarily mean directly in front of the guard. As I said earlier, Charm Person has a minimum possible range of 25 feet. So the PC could be standing down the hall or across a crowded street from the guard when he casts and fails to affect the guard.

Of course this is but conjecture on both of our parts since the OP did not fully define the scenario.

we went beyond the exact scenario put forth by the op. rather then arguing about what the exact original scenario was; or using it to oppose discussion of other possible scenarios, lets just focus on what we think will occur in a variety of different scenarios.

[Tanuki Tales]

I think that if you walk up to a guard and start chanting and waving your hands and he then feels a malevolent force in his mind which he pushes away he should assume you cast a bad spell on him.
Or that you are a witch trying to curse him and that calls for a little lynching.

If you cast a stilled silence spell from across the room while the guard is paying attention to another person and not you, that he might dismiss the malevolent force as paranoia (unless experienced with making saving throws against mind magic) and even if not should not be able to pin point YOU as the source (would be hilarious to do if he is speaking to someone you dislike).

If you use a stilled but not silenced spell on someone he might think it is a spell, or he might think it is foreign language, especially dependent on how you use it (say, turn to your friend and speak the spell) and whether he has spellcraft... whether he ties his "feeling of malevolent force" to being a spell and not just him disliking your "nasty foreign tongue" depends on a variety of factors and can go either way...


I've really already gone over or brought up these points before already.

[taltamir]

I've really already gone over or brought up these points before already.

then we agree?

[Tanuki Tales]

then we agree?

That the guard has no reason to suspect the caster directly unless he does something obviously stupid while casting (and thus should be rightly punished)?

[Setra]

But that's assuming that you can recognize the feeling as magic being cast on you.
Why is that wrong? In a world of magic if you feel an unnatural force, it is a very logical assumption to make that the unnatural is caused by magic.


Since a hostile force is not actually defined in the rules and its not even likely that everyone will readily agree on how feeling a hostile force exactly feels, I'm going to go with Shadowmage's headache idea. A head ache is an extremely common ailment that is brought upon by a multitude of things. What suddenly must narrow all that down to being magic? Because headaches don't normally feel hostile. This is also assuming the feeling is like a headache, it's very likely anything the DM wants it to be since no one can agree on it. The only thing that's really agreeable is that it's "hostile"


And even if we'll say its a high magic environment, that must mean mages in a city are highly common and then what leads the guard to believe it must be a nearby magic user in a city that could contain dozens if not more of such entities?
Well if they don't know who cast it, they certainly have a right to be suspicious of just about everyone. In the first case, it would seem the guard saw the caster casting the spell in the first place.. so that would put him at suspect #1.

[Tanuki Tales]

Why is that wrong? In a world of magic if you feel an unnatural force, it is a very logical assumption to make that the unnatural is caused by magic.

Because headaches don't normally feel hostile. This is also assuming the feeling is like a headache, it's very likely anything the DM wants it to be since no one can agree on it. The only thing that's really agreeable is that it's "hostile"


Well if they don't know who cast it, they certainly have a right to be suspicious of just about everyone.

But who defines feeling a hostile force as unnatural? The example NPC is a guard, not a merchant. A guard in most cases has to deal with hostile criminals, monsters, etc., putting their life on the line to deal with threats to the city they're guarding. So they'd be pretty used to feeling hostile intent, mystical or otherwise, this sudden feeling is nothing new. (Now if you want to say the guard has lead an easy career... this is just a DM purposely trying to screw the caster).

Like I said, I doubt we'll get an agreement on what the hostile force actually feels like. I'm using headache because that was the first one given in the thread and can be conveyed as the DM not actively playing against the PCs.

Assuming they knew they just resisted a spell.

[Setra]

But who defines feeling a hostile force as unnatural? The example NPC is a guard, not a merchant. A guard in most cases has to deal with hostile criminals, monsters, etc., putting their life on the line to deal with threats to the city they're guarding. So they'd be pretty used to feeling hostile intent, mystical or otherwise, this sudden feeling is nothing new. (Now if you want to say the guard has lead an easy career... this is just a DM purposely trying to screw the caster). Well then if this is nothing new, then they should already know what a spell being cast on them feels like. They might even raise an alarm "Someone just cast a spell on me!" and be even MORE suspicious than the one who led an easy career.


Like I said, I doubt we'll get an agreement on what the hostile force actually feels like. I'm using headache because that was the first one given in the thread and can be conveyed as the DM not actively playing against the PCs. This is true, only the DM would really be able to define what it feels like. However I still like to imagine it as quite distinctive, otherwise the description would not be so vague.


Assuming they knew they just resisted a spell.
Well the text can be interpreted that way.. of course it can also be the reverse, it's really too vague, but I would think the fact they put anything there at all would imply they are supposed to know something at the very least.

[Xenogears]

But who defines feeling a hostile force as unnatural? The example NPC is a guard, not a merchant. A guard in most cases has to deal with hostile criminals, monsters, etc., putting their life on the line to deal with threats to the city they're guarding. So they'd be pretty used to feeling hostile intent, mystical or otherwise, this sudden feeling is nothing new. (Now if you want to say the guard has lead an easy career... this is just a DM purposely trying to screw the caster).

Like I said, I doubt we'll get an agreement on what the hostile force actually feels like. I'm using headache because that was the first one given in the thread and can be conveyed as the DM not actively playing against the PCs.

Assuming they knew they just resisted a spell.

Once again I must reiterate that hostile intent does NOT mean the same as hostile force. I might yell at you and you would feel a hostile intent but not a hostile force.

[Tanuki Tales]

Well then if this is nothing new, then they should already know what a spell being cast on them feels like. They might even raise an alarm "Someone just cast a spell on me!" and be even MORE suspicious than the one who led an easy career.

This is true, only the DM would really be able to define what it feels like. However I still like to imagine it as quite distinctive, otherwise the description would not be so vague.


Well the text can be interpreted that way.. of course it can also be the reverse, it's really too vague, but I would think the fact they put anything there at all would imply they are supposed to know something at the very least.

Thanks for misconstruing my words. I clearly said that feeling "hostile intent" would be nothing new. Nowhere in there did I say the NPC gets an ability that automatically lets him recognize when a spell is cast on him.


A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle

It says "or a tingle". Not a searing or strong sensation, a tingle. So going off of the alternate feeling it can't be as if a low level Paladin tried to use Detect Good on Asmodeus directly.

Yes, know that something possibly just happened. But this is not the same as knowing something just actively happened to you.

[Tanuki Tales]

Once again I must reiterate that hostile intent does NOT mean the same as hostile force. I might yell at you and you would feel a hostile intent but not a hostile force.

Mind clarifying where it says that hostile intent is different from a feeling of hostile force?

[Setra]

Thanks for misconstruing my words. I clearly said that feeling "hostile intent" would be nothing new. Nowhere in there did I say the NPC gets an ability that automatically lets him recognize when a spell is cast on him.Well it's a good thing the text says "hostile force".

You did say that he wasn't a guard with a simple career, in a world of high magic that leads to implications that he probably has had people try to fool him with magic before.

Nowhere in the text does it say the npc can't recognize the feeling of magic.

Yes, know that something possibly just happened. But this is not the same as knowing something just actively happened to you.
Why doesn't the guard know something just actively happened rather than the former?

Mind clarifying where it says that hostile intent is different from a feeling of hostile force?
The part where it says "Hostile Force" rather than "Hostile intent"

[Tanuki Tales]

Well it's a good thing the text says "hostile force".

You did say that he wasn't a guard with a simple career, in a world of high magic that leads to implications that he probably has had people try to fool him with magic before.

Nowhere in the text does it say the npc can't recognize the feeling of magic.

Why doesn't the guard know something just actively happened rather than the former?

The part where it says "Hostile Force" rather than "Hostile intent"

Mind also clarifying what the feeling of magic is and where it is in the rules please?

Why does he know? What leads to him know actively someone just did something? Does he have "Anticipate Spent Action" as a supernatural ability?

And you did not answer my question at all, thanks.

[Setra]

Mind also clarifying what the feeling of magic is and where it is in the rules please?I've never seen it.

Thus "Nowhere in the text does it say the npc can't recognize the feeling of magic."

If you find it, please share.


Why does he know? What leads to him know actively someone just did something?
Why doesn't he?


And you did not answer my question at all, thanks.
There is a difference between a hostile intent and a hostile force, if you can't tell the difference it's not my problem.

[Tanuki Tales]

I've never seen it.

Thus "Nowhere in the text does it say the npc can't recognize the feeling of magic."

If you find it, please share.


Why doesn't he?


There is a difference between a hostile intent and a hostile force, if you can't tell the difference it's not my problem.

So you're going to try to use the "Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence" argument? Nice.

And this stops being what the rules say and what you think they should be.

And it's not my problem you're trying to hand off your own opinions and interpretations as RAW.

[Setra]

So you're going to try to use the "Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence" argument? Nice. [quote]No, I'm just shifting the burden of proof.

[quote]And this stops being what the rules say and what you think they should be.Doesn't sound any different than what you were trying to do.


And it's not my problem you're trying to hand off your own opinions and interpretations as RAW.
Same to you.

[taltamir]

Because headaches don't normally feel hostile.

Mine certainly do :)

[Tanuki Tales]

[QUOTE=Bendraesar;7633227]So you're going to try to use the "Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence" argument? Nice. [quote]No, I'm just shifting the burden of proof.

Doesn't sound any different than what you were trying to do.


Same to you.

And I'm done with you. Come back when you're ready to discuss the implications of actual printed rules in social contexts of the game instead of what you as a DM would do to actively play against your players.

[Yuki Akuma]

You seem to enjoy accusing anyone who disagrees with you as playing against their players. That's not very polite.

[Tanuki Tales]

You seem to enjoy accusing anyone who disagrees with you as playing against their players. That's not very polite.

Nor is questioning another player's mental aptitude because they disagree with you. But I haven't called you or Xenogears on your barely subtle attempts at that thus far.

That though is off topic so please return to it so that we won't give a moderator reason to come in here.

[Lord Thurlvin]

And I'm done with you. Come back when you're ready to discuss the implications of actual printed rules in social contexts of the game instead of what you as a DM would do to actively play against your players.

Whether or not the DM is actively playing against the players depends heavily on how experienced the guard is and whether or not he saw the caster actually cast the spell, which is what was suggested in the original post. If the guard is a green newbie, the "hostile force" will be more easily dismissed than if he were experienced with dealing with magic. Unless he were experienced, it shouldn't make him hostile, but I could see it moving him down one attitude. A DM should decide whether what he is guarding would warrant more experience on the guard's part and rule accordingly.

[Tanuki Tales]

Whether or not the DM is actively playing against the players depends heavily on how experienced the guard is and whether or not he saw the caster actually cast the spell, which is what was suggested in the original post. If the guard is a green newbie, the "hostile force" will be more easily dismissed than if he were experienced with dealing with magic. Unless he were experienced, it shouldn't make him hostile, but I could see it moving him down one attitude. A DM should decide whether what he is guarding would warrant more experience on the guard's part and rule accordingly.

Well, the original post did only say the caster was "in front".

I think a lot of this could be ended or avoided if the OP was here to further clarify the particulars of the scenario.

[Lord Thurlvin]

Well, the original post did only say the caster was "in front".

I think a lot of this could be ended or avoided if the OP was here to further clarify the particulars of the scenario.

Most of "this" seems to be stemming from different interpretations of a fairly vague sentence in the Player's Handbook.

[BarbarianNina]

Charm Person, done right, is an awesome spell (especially if cast on good roleplayers). Done wrong, it's seriously overpowered.

I pretty much agree with what most people have said; the guard will be suspicious, more or less so depending on how subtly you cast the spell and how much he knows about magic. The wizard will realize you cast Charm Person, but will rationalize it.

If I was DMing and a player walked straight up to a guard, stood in front of him, and cast Charm Person, I would point out that the guard, if he succeeds at his save, is going to realize the player tried to cast something on him. If the player chooses, he can take that risk.

Also, even if Charm succeeds, it's not Dominate. I've let PCs get away with continuing to save the day while Charmed by the BBEG's top henchman because they convincingly argued that stopping the BBEG was in the henchman's best interest.

[Glass Mouse]

Basically, this all comes down to whether or not we define "malevolent force" as easily recognizable as magic.
"[the target] cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack" (form the d20srd link) can mean a variety of things, from "wouldn't know if it's a spell or a headache" to "can deduce school of magic but not excact spell".

Which means; as usual, the rules are open for interpretation. Hurray! Aren't D&D great? :smalltongue:

Edit: Wow, one new page of posts while I was writing, and now I'm more or less outdated. Meh. Learn to type faster, Mouse...

[Alaris]

I believe it was best stated by the second poster in the thread.

The person who saw you cast it on them, even if they interpreted what it was, would think that it was their friend that cast charm person on them.

"They cast Charm Person on me because it was necessary. Afterall, my friend wouldn't cast Charm Person on me if it wasn't, right? He's my friend afterall."

[Reluctance]

Most of "this" seems to be stemming from different interpretations of a fairly vague sentence in the Player's Handbook.

Untrue. It's a bit of information they thought was redundant in the SRD. Check P. 177 in your PHB and see for yourself.

And while people are checking their books, P. 142 in the DMG couldn't hurt, either.

[Tanuki Tales]

Untrue. It's a bit of information they thought was redundant in the SRD. Check P. 177 in your PHB and see for yourself.

And while people are checking their books, P. 142 in the DMG couldn't hurt, either.

I retract my opinion on whether the mook knows that magic has been used on it by RAW. I still stand though that in a high magic setting that it would not necessarily act any more negatively towards a PC without actively knowing they were at least a caster if not possibly the one who cast it.

[Yuki Akuma]

How often do people hide the fact that they're a spellcaster? I mean, really?

[Tanuki Tales]

How often do people hide the fact that they're a spellcaster? I mean, really?

Depends how smart they are. A hat of disguise or not dressing like your class is both cheap and easily done.

[Lord Thurlvin]

Untrue. It's a bit of information they thought was redundant in the SRD. Check P. 177 in your PHB and see for yourself.

And while people are checking their books, P. 142 in the DMG couldn't hurt, either.

That was what I was going off of to begin with. The problem is what exactly a "hostile force or tingle" would mean. How strong is it? Does it feel like a sudden wave of paranoia? Is it immediately recognizable if the target has been subjected to a charm spell before? Would someone who has never been the target of a charm spell be able to understand it was a spell?
It really comes down to the DM's interpretation, and the problem so far has been whether or not the guard acting more suspicious towards everyone new he meets is the DM being unfair or not.

[Pigkappa]

I didn't actually speak about a guard because it is possible that a guard wouldn't think about these kind of spells, and not get really upset. But except at very low levels (1-2 I'd say), PCs have to deal with uncommon people. It won't be a problem to deal with a level-1-fighter guard; it will mostly be skilled professionists (elite guards, other adventurers, priests, and the like).

Now, if I were a moderately rich evil monk/wizard/warrior/whatever with a pair of class levels, and a bunch of adventurers comes to talk to me and I suddenly notice that I succeeded at resisting a spell, I wouldn't waste time before fleeing or attacking them. That makes quite sense in my opinion; a not-totally-idiot guy in the world of D&D knows that there are lots of ways to be killed, and should be as careful as possible. If your character felt he's just resisted a spell and doesn't know where that came from, wouldn't you flee as soon as possible? If you saw someone casting something at you and feel you resisted, wouldn't you just attack him or flee, instead of asking him what was he doing?

[Reluctance]

That was what I was going off of to begin with. The problem is what exactly a "hostile force or tingle" would mean. How strong is it? Does it feel like a sudden wave of paranoia? Is it immediately recognizable if the target has been subjected to a charm spell before? Would someone who has never been the target of a charm spell be able to understand it was a spell?
It really comes down to the DM's interpretation, and the problem so far has been whether or not the guard acting more suspicious towards everyone new he meets is the DM being unfair or not.

The bit I was pointing to in the PHB specifically said that the NPC knew that a spell was cast on them. The SRD cut off the example. (Although the fact that you have to make a Spellcraft check to ID the exact spell shows that most NPCs would only know "someone cast a spell on me", not "someone cast a charm spell on me". I'd rule that they can tell a spell that requires a Fort save from one that requires a Will save, but there's no RAW to back that up.)

As to the guard, I'd say that being affected by "a hostile or malevolent force" would make anybody edgy. Edgy enough to drop them from neutral to unfriendly or even hostile? Probably not, unless they had good reason to believe that the PC was the source of this assault. (But also keeping in mind that in a magic-filled world, anybody making funny movements or saying gibberish at the moment a magical attack happens is going to be treated as well as the guy making bomb jokes at the airport.) Being the recent subject of a magical attack would definitely make somebody edgy in the RP sense, though, and most likely edgy enough to impose a circumstance penalty on diplomacy attempts. Anything more than that is entirely situational.

Edit: Also, what Pigkappa said. I wonder how many PCs, upon being told "make a Will save", would continue talking to the guy right in front of them as if nothing had happened.

[Tyndmyr]

I don't think he really realises what a guard is for, and how he'd be trained in a setting where people flinging magic about is a daily occurrence.

If I feel an invasive, hostile force inside my head at the time a stranger shows up, I might very well be paranoid and cautious around him even if I don't KNOW it's him. I mean...it seems pretty reasonable.

[Yuki Akuma]

If I feel an invasive, hostile force inside my head at the time a stranger shows up, I might very well be paranoid and cautious around him even if I don't KNOW it's him. I mean...it seems pretty reasonable.

Then there's the fact that guards are trained to be paranoid and cautious around anyone they don't recognise...

[Tyndmyr]

Right. They might not actually axe you right there unless other factors are in play(ie, if you were dumb enough to cast it non-stilled/silent, from where they can see you), but their attitude is going to be pretty darned bad.

I would have no problem dropping them a step lower on the diplomacy table to represent that.

[Foryn Gilnith]

To remedy these problems, consider the spell Price of Loyalty, from Player's Guide to Eberron. It's 2nd-level, touch range, and requires a focus, but there are no signs of magic. No components. Not even a hostile force if they succeed on a will save. Same effect and duration as Charm Person.

[taltamir]

To remedy these problems, consider the spell Price of Loyalty, from Player's Guide to Eberron. It's 2nd-level, touch range, and requires a focus, but there are no signs of magic. No components. Not even a hostile force if they succeed on a will save. Same effect and duration as Charm Person.

ah, the "better spell TM".
If your spell has a drawback, just find a better spell that does the exact same thing without said drawback.