which races do you find overpowered?

[Soranar]

I've been going through my dnd races index and I find some races frankly too powerfulto be fair and balanced

I was wondering which you considered too strong?

on my list so far

of this entails using the race in question with the proper classes, making a wizard water orc is hardly overpowered

lesser Aasimar , +2 to Wis and Cha and no real penalty
tortle +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Dex ,-2 Cha +3 natural AC favored cleric
Mongrelfolk +4 Con, -2 Int, -4 Cha
Neanderthal +2 Str,+2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Cha
Dwarves those with +2 to multiple stats without level adjustments
water orc +4 str, +2 Con, -2 mental stats

[Zaydos]

Strongheart Halfling: better than human except for melee.
Lesser Tiefling: -2 Cha is not a penalty to a wizard.

[SurlySeraph]

Other than Lesser Aasimar/Tiefling, I don't have a problem with any of those. Whisper Gnomes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3), however...

@V: Anthropomorphic Giant Squid with a Wounding Amulet of Natural Attacks or Soul Eater or something else that means "One very bad thing happens to your opponent per attack." Kills anything very quickly in melee, especially if you can get Rapidstrike. And the sad part is that it isn't anywhere near as broken as an Anthropomorphic Bat Druid.

[Dr Bwaa]

Heh. Ever seen an anthropomorphic bat? (or an anthopomorphic anything else, for that matter).

[deuxhero]

Human. Free skill points and a bonus feat that can be used on just about anything you want!

[ex cathedra]

Human, Strongheart Halfling, Anthropomorphic Animals, Greensnake Naga.

[Eldariel]

Strongheart Halfling
Human
Anthrobat
Precious few others. Getting feat is just ridiculous, as is getting +6 to casting stat. Couple of stat buffs; yawn, who cares? Lesser Outsiders miss out on a lot of good stuff dependent on being of a common race and both of the bonuses are rarely useful (more often in Tiefling's case).

Water Orc? You have friggin' penalty to all mental stats. I don't know about you, but that counts as a disadvantage to me. Imperious Command? Combat Expertise? Yeah, you'll never see those. It's a fine race for warriors and with trickery, can be sorta-ok as a caster, but broken? Eh... Warriors being sorta weak in general isn't helping.


The only one I ban out of those is Anthrobat tho, because it's a bit too silly with fly-speed, +6 to CASTER class and so on. Physical bonuses are of little consequence since they don't fuel the truly strong classes, but large mental bonuses combined with LA +0 flight...

Humans/Strongheart Halflings aren't so obviously overpowered and not all character concepts are best off with that extra feat, but still, it's telling that all the Char Ops builds tend to start with "Human/Strongheart Halfling..." unless we're talking classes with racial prerequisites.

[Xenogears]

The only one I ban out of those is Anthrobat tho, because it's a bit too silly with fly-speed, +6 to CASTER class and so on. Physical bonuses are of little consequence since they don't fuel the truly strong classes, but large mental bonuses combined with LA +0 flight...

What if someone wanted to make an anthropamorphic bat monk?

[Eldariel]

What if someone wanted to make an anthropamorphic bat monk?

I also consider Anthropomorphic Animals exceedingly silly and as such, would tell him to bugger the hell out, unless the game was about being a part of a circus entourage.

[deuxhero]

By "monk" we mean the class in the PHB without access to Tashalatora/psy warrior nor "unarmed swordsage"? Nothing could make that overpowered.

[Eldariel]

By "monk" we mean the class in the PHB without access to Tashalatora/psy warrior nor "unarmed swordsage"? Nothing could make that overpowered.

Actually, Black Ethergaunt Monk 1 could be exceedingly overpowered. Though that's mostly because it casts as a level 17 Wizard.

[Xenogears]

By "monk" we mean the class in the PHB without access to Tashalatora/psy warrior nor "unarmed swordsage"? Nothing could make that overpowered.

No no it couldn't. Enough work could make it moderately effective though. Max out wisdom, get intuitive strike, go for stunning attacks. Certainly not OP but you can probably participate in most heavy-optimized games.

[Temotei]

By "monk" we mean the class in the PHB without access to Tashalatora/psy warrior nor "unarmed swordsage"? Nothing could make that overpowered.

Depends on the campaign. If it's a campaign where the DM is a jerk, the monk might live long enough to be the last one standing.

Then again, everything depends on the campaign, so...yeah. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SoYeah)

[Xenogears]

Actually, Black Ethergaunt Monk 1 could be exceedingly overpowered. Though that's mostly because it casts as a level 17 Wizard.

Not really even then unless there is LA buy-off so it can be done pre-epic (also does LA buy-off work with RHD?)

Also the black etherguant is awesome. 30+ Int + to almost all stats, 17th level casting, immunity to all arcane spells level 6 and under, and some various other less important abilities. All for 16HD and 4 LA.

[Eldariel]

Not really even then unless there is LA buy-off so it can be done pre-epic (also does LA buy-off work with RHD?)

Also the black etherguant is awesome. 30+ Int + to almost all stats, 17th level casting, immunity to all arcane spells level 6 and under, and some various other less important abilities. All for 16HD and 4 LA.

Meh. It qualifies for Epic Spellcasting, ergo it's broken. It's also got 9th level Wizard-spells, ergo it's broken. Not compared to straight casters, of course, but since they're broken, that's not saying much.

[Soranar]

I listed the Water Orc as overpowered because, despite warriors being subpar at higher levels, a few low level Water Orcs are much stronger than the standard warrior without any real effect (outside of INT mental stats are not really important)

extra feat races (human, strongheart halfling) are on my watchlist (not clearly overpowered but strong)

I find the main grief against feat +1 races are that they make really good mages and since mages are tier 1 they seem much stronger than they actually are

I would add raptoran to the watchlist but since flight is scaled by level and limited in carrying capacity I'm not that impressed with them

never heard of anthrobat but just hearing about it sounds ridiculous, +6 to a casting stat? is this core?

and whispergnomes are fine by me, no one would play gnomes otherwise: you might as well have 1 playable gnome race that isn't kobold fodder but I'd reduce the movement to 20

[Xenogears]

Meh. It qualifies for Epic Spellcasting, ergo it's broken. It's also got 9th level Wizard-spells, ergo it's broken. Not compared to straight casters, of course, but since they're broken, that's not saying much.

Actually its an ECL 21 character with only 17 HD so it does not qualify for epic even though everyone else does. Not terribly broken.

[SurlySeraph]

never heard of anthrobat but just hearing about it sounds ridiculous, +6 to a casting stat? is this core?

They're in Savage Species, which is one of the most broken books in 3E. +6 Wisdom, Blindsight, Flight... I really don't know what the writers were thinking.

[Knaight]

That the wisdom bonus worked better than a +3 to Spot, Listen, etc. because odd bonuses other than +1 to skills basically don't exist? Of course, they could just give echolocation, but then, these are D&D professional writers we are talking about, not people who know what they are doing. Unlike many on GiantITP.

[Eldariel]

Actually its an ECL 21 character with only 17 HD so it does not qualify for epic even though everyone else does. Not terribly broken.

Right, forgot you count Epic on CL, not ECL. Well, that just makes LA slightly more horrible there than normal. How cool.

[Xenogears]

Right, forgot you count Epic on CL, not ECL. Well, that just makes LA slightly more horrible there than normal. How cool.

Yeah and since RHD don't count for LA buy-off (just lookd it up...) you can't finish paying it off until you have 30 class levels. So uh if your going to start a campaign at ecl 46+ and LA buy-off is in effect then it makes an awesome character...

[Beelzebub1111]

Empty Vessels. All the benefits of being human plus extra crap.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

You can generally break any race. That said, the most powerful ones are generally:
Kobolds. Anything you can do I can do better. Yes, even melee.
Dorfs: Basically the gold standard for meleers. No reason not to take if you wear armor and don't need Cha. There are a few more powerful fighter races, but not many. Also gets you Runesmith.
Human: Free feat, free skill points. How many builds don't want that?
Strongheart Halfling: Human, with the additional advantage of small size.
Anthropomorphic NO
Anything with more +s than -s to stats at LA 0, including the Lesser Planetouched.
Buomen and Illumian occasionally do seriously odd things to otherwise balanced abilities.
Both broken and too weak gets us elves and half-elves, which basically are either nerfs for noobs or boost to already OP builds.
Any race that adds more than +4 to a skill or stat is too often used in certain broken applications.
Sylph, IIRC, is the one with +2 LA, 6 HD, and Sorcerer casting based on HD. Yeah. So a Sylph 8/Factotum 10 has 18th level Sorc casting.

Under-utilized races:
Raptorans. Not broken by any stretch of the imagination, but one of the best races for archers in the game, with free EWP in the best bow out there.
Shifters. Great for warriors, especially Warshapers. Not broken, but easily optimizable. Shifting also stacks well with shapechanging effects.
Warforged. Laundry list of immunities, never used in PO and rarely in TO.
Necropolitan. ^, but occasionally pulled out for Dread Necromancers and a couple other builds.

[arguskos]

Under-utilized races:
Raptorans. Not broken by any stretch of the imagination, but one of the best races for archers in the game, with free EWP in the best bow out there.
Shifters. Great for warriors, especially Warshapers. Not broken, but easily optimizable. Shifting also stacks well with shapechanging effects.
Warforged. Laundry list of immunities, never used in PO and rarely in TO.
Necropolitan. ^, but occasionally pulled out for Dread Necromancers and a couple other builds.
I see these two tossed about all the time. Warforged is pretty commonly suggested for meleers who don't need insane amounts of feats. Necropolitan is suggested for ANYTHING that would benefit from being undead (more than a few builds really).

Though, yes, Shifters/Raptorans aren't suggested much.

Also, my personal "this isn't suggested enough" race is Neraphs. They rock so very very hard, and yet, no one ever suggests them. Dvati, Diopsids, Tibbits, and Genasi (which should have a lesser version dammit >_<) also don't come up hardly ever. Oh, and the best LA/RHD race ever: Lumi.

[sofawall]

You can generally break any race. That said, the most powerful ones are generally:
Kobolds. Anything you can do I can do better. Yes, even melee.
Dorfs: Basically the gold standard for meleers. No reason not to take if you wear armor and don't need Cha. There are a few more powerful fighter races, but not many. Also gets you Runesmith.
Human: Free feat, free skill points. How many builds don't want that?
Strongheart Halfling: Human, with the additional advantage of small size.
Anthropomorphic NO
Anything with more +s than -s to stats at LA 0, including the Lesser Planetouched.
Buomen and Illumian occasionally do seriously odd things to otherwise balanced abilities.
Both broken and too weak gets us elves and half-elves, which basically are either nerfs for noobs or boost to already OP builds.
Any race that adds more than +4 to a skill or stat is too often used in certain broken applications.
Sylph, IIRC, is the one with +2 LA, 6 HD, and Sorcerer casting based on HD. Yeah. So a Sylph 8/Factotum 10 has 18th level Sorc casting.

Under-utilized races:
Raptorans. Not broken by any stretch of the imagination, but one of the best races for archers in the game, with free EWP in the best bow out there.
Shifters. Great for warriors, especially Warshapers. Not broken, but easily optimizable. Shifting also stacks well with shapechanging effects.
Warforged. Laundry list of immunities, never used in PO and rarely in TO.
Necropolitan. ^, but occasionally pulled out for Dread Necromancers and a couple other builds.

ToS would like to have a word with you.

[nekomata2]

Don't Genasi have a lesser version the same way Aasimar/Tieflings do, just change them from native outsiders to Human(panetouched)?

[arguskos]

Don't Genasi have a lesser version the same way Aasimar/Tieflings do, just change them from native outsiders to Human(panetouched)?
Not that I can find ANYWHERE. They REALLY should though. :smallannoyed:

[Kylarra]

They're the same conversion as Aasimar/Tieflings, since genasi are also planetouched.

[arguskos]

They're the same conversion as Aasimar/Tieflings, since genasi are also planetouched.
Thought that Aasimar and Tieflings were specifically called out, and Genasi got the shaft?

Checked. You are correct! Never been happier to be proven wrong. :smallredface:

[Eldariel]

@Stoopid's list: If going with abusables, let's not forget Neraphim (+0 LA Outsiders from Planar Handbook), Elan (+0 LA Aberrations, pretty fcking good with psionics too), [Gray] Elf [and anything else with lots of racial weapon profs, like Kobolds] (Dark Chaos much?) and hmm.

In general, anything with abnormal type can do pretty sick (early) stuff with shapeshifting magic.

[Thurbane]

I second Lesser Aasimar and Whisper Gnome.

Also, not necessarily overpowered, but it honks me off that 1/2 Orcs get the royal screwjob on abilities in core "because a bonus to STR is more powerful than any other ability" (WTF WOtC?); yet there are plenty of non-PHB LA +0 races that get a bonus to STR (Neanderthals, Skarn, Wood Elf etc.) without the cruddy ability mods and lack of racial traits that 1/2 Orcs get lumped with.

IMHO, 3.5 1/2 Orcs should be +2 STR, -2 INT, Darkvision, treat Orc Double Ax as martial, and racial bonus to Intimidate and Survival.

[Eldariel]

IMHO, 3.5 1/2 Orcs should be +2 STR, -2 INT, Darkvision, treat Orc Double Ax as martial, and racial bonus to Intimidate and Survival.

At least. I'd go a step further and give them some kind of limited Rage-variant (1/day by standard rules, Con/day Min 1 if you're into reworking classes), perhaps mellowed-down version (+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 AC) that becomes an extra Rage for a Barbarian.

Even with the stats you suggest, a Dwarf beats them any day of the week (+2 to saves vs. spells is pretty good for melee, as is full movement in heavy armor and Stability; and that's only like half of their abilities).


For that matter, core Elves could use a buff. Like a straight +2 Int or something. -2 Con is pretty much the worst penalty you can have in this game; at least make it worth their while. Hell, they should treat the Elven Xblades as Martials automatically; that only helps warrior types anyways and elven warriors are pretty hurting right now.


The Core races that don't really need buffs are Humans (though others would want some buffs to match up to them), Gnomes (in few instances, they can do sick stuff as Illusionists and some warrior builds) & Dwarf (yeah). Halfling is kinda on the fence; it could use some bonuses. Elf, Half-Orc & Half-Elf all need some heavy buffing and Orc should be a PHB race if Half-Orc is.

[GoatBoy]

I don't know if this counts, but a player in one of my games once asked if he could play a White Dragonspawned Elf from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting. It's actually a template, but, well... look.

+7 natural AC
Flight equal to twice land speed
Bite, 2 claws
Breath weapon - 2d6 cone of cold
Death throes
Casts spells as 1st level Sorcerer
+2 Dex, +2 Con
Level adjustment +1

"No. Just... no."

[sofawall]

I don't know if this counts, but a player in one of my games once asked if he could play a White Dragonspawned Elf from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting. It's actually a template, but, well... look.

+7 natural AC
Flight equal to twice land speed
Bite, 2 claws
Breath weapon - 2d6 cone of cold
Death throes
Casts spells as 1st level Sorcerer
+2 Dex, +2 Con
Level adjustment +1

"No. Just... no."

White Dragonspawn is known to Char Op as fully deserving of the title "Overpowered".

[Lycanthromancer]

Non-psionic thri-kreen. They have no overtly psionic abilities (so, no psi-like abilities), but they get 4 claw attacks (and 4 arms to quad-wield weapons, or wield 1 weapon 4-handed, or 2 weapons 2-handed), a poisoned bite attack, bonuses to Str, Dex, and Wis, penalties to Int and Cha, +30 on Jump checks, do not need sleep (and are immune to sleep effects), treat chatkchas and gythkas as martial weapons, Darkvision, +3 natural armor, a base speed of 40 ft, and have elves as a staple of their diets, all for +1 LA (which can be bought off) and 2 monstrous humanoid HD (which can be retrained).

Oh, and they're (obviously) monstrous humanoids. Big ninja bug-men.

Can I get a 'hell yeah!'?

[sofawall]

Non-psionic thri-kreen. They have no overtly psionic abilities (so, no psi-like abilities), but they get 4 claw attacks (and 4 arms to quad-wield weapons, or wield 1 weapon 4-handed, or 2 weapons 2-handed), a poisoned bite attack, bonuses to Str, Dex, and Wis, penalties to Int and Cha, +30 on Jump checks, do not need sleep (and are immune to sleep effects), treat chatkchas and gythkas as martial weapons, Darkvision, +3 natural armor, a base speed of 40 ft, and have elves as a staple of their diets, all for +1 LA (which can be bought off) and 2 monstrous humanoid HD (which can be retrained).

Oh, and they're (obviously) monstrous humanoids. Big ninja bug-men.

Can I get a 'hell yeah!'?

Eh? What you say?

[2xMachina]

Tack on Insectile for more fun. Very appropriate too. A more buggy bug man? Sounds normal to me. Oh, and 8 hands, more eyes, tremorsense for 2 more LA

[Runestar]

Half-orcs make quite decent choices for the dragonborn template, considering they don't really lose anything of significance. Orcs as well, if you are willing to burn 2 feats to acquire steadfast determination (which in turn lets you dump wis). That dragonblood orc variant in dragon magic grants endurance as a bonus feat, but the fire vulnerability disturbes me. :smalltongue:

But sorry, did I wake up in some weird alternate universe where humans give +20int at 1st lv or something? How are they overpowered? I feel they represent the gold standard for what a LA+0 race ought to be like, in that they are as balanced as races go.

Illumian...not sure how they break the game either.

Also note that ethergaunt monk1 can't take epic spellcasting since they don't have the requisite 24 ranks. :smallsmile:

[mikej]

I used to think all elves were good and thought playing a Human in a fantasy game was rather dull. I grew out of that pretty fast :smallwink:

- Human [Free Feat/Skill Point]
- Gray Elf [ - 2 Con sucks but Int is nice. I like them ]
- Strongheart Halfling
- Warforged [ I <3 Warforged ]

I like Thri-kreen as well.

[AirGuitarGod32]

I second Thri-Kreen, and raise you an Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale: the most broken 0LA race EVER!

It gets insane physical stat boosts, Large Size, and some seriously broken effects. Combined with Feral Template, and you have a death-dealing superPC

[JaronK]

Kobolds. With Dragonwrought, you can be venerable and pay a feat to get +3 to all mental stats, plus there's a bunch of other nasty racial tricks they've got up their sleeves.

Humans: A bonus feat can be incredibly powerful for many of the strongest builds.

Gnomes: But only if used with Shadowcraft Mage.

And finally, most anthropomorphic races.

Remember, a race that's really good at being a melee isn't going to be nearly as powerful as a race that's good at being a caster. Sure, Dragonborn Water Orcs have solid stats, but they're mostly only good as melees... that Human Wizard is going to be a heck of a lot more powerful in the long run.

JaronK

[Bagelz]

i'm suprised noone said changelings yet.
alterself shennanigans at will.

also humans extra feat trumps stats most of the time. So without "broken" things like venerable dragonwrought kobalds, or anthropomorphic +lots of stats animal (you know the things i WOULD NOT allow as DM) there aren't any broken +0 la races. and we all know that racial hd is a bust (unless using savage racial progressions instead of classes).

[Xenogears]

@Stoopid's list: If going with abusables, let's not forget Neraphim (+0 LA Outsiders from Planar Handbook), Elan (+0 LA Aberrations, pretty fcking good with psionics too), [Gray] Elf [and anything else with lots of racial weapon profs, like Kobolds] (Dark Chaos much?) and hmm.

In general, anything with abnormal type can do pretty sick (early) stuff with shapeshifting magic.

Yeah but that has a lot more to do with shapeshifting being broke than the race itself having any problems.

[Optimystik]

Azurin (MoI) gets all the human benefits plus free essentia.

Synad (CPsi) gets more PP than Elan, is also an aberration, and can double move/full attack and still manifest powers as a swift action without spending its focus or using Quicken Power. It can also, RAW, gain +2 to any knowledge check or psicraft per PP spent with no cap as a free action.

[deuxhero]

i'm suprised noone said changelings yet.
alterself shennanigans at will.


Because it has no stats benefit attached without a feat (and the only one I know of is just 1 less UMD) or a prestige class (that may or may not be legal)?

[Cyclocone]

Deep Imaskari. How is this not LA +1, when Sharakim and Blues are?

Silverbrow Human. Bonus feat and free Dragonblood subtype? Don't mind if I do.

[PhoenixRivers]

Jermlaine. +6 Wisdom, tiny size, +0 LA, Fey type (immune to XXX person)

Sounds like a druid to me.

[Zaydos]

My general idea is if it is 19 times out of 20 better than a human for a class it is probably too good. That said I also think except for dwarves and gnomes the PHB classes need boosts to match humans. Something should be a good choice, but not the only choice, for a race. This is something I like about dwarves they're good enough to normally be the choice for what they are supposed to be (fighters) and sometimes others (the save and Con bonus can make it worth it for a wizard). Elves? I've only seen it be possibly worth it for rogues. Gnomes? If I'm aiming for a strong druid or dragonfire adept I'll take them over human for sure, warlock maybe, wizard/sorcerer maybe... actually a lot of things I'd maybe play a gnome for, but without Shadowcraft Mage nothing that I'd always play a gnome for. So anything better than human/dwarf/gnome is too strong and anything weaker is too weak.

As for anthropomorphic animals... the more I hear about them the more I think, that's just silly.

[Optimystik]

Elves? I've only seen it be possibly worth it for rogues.

Not so; Grey Elves make extremely good wizards, especially once you factor in racial substitution levels (RotW).

[Telonius]

I see these two tossed about all the time. Warforged is pretty commonly suggested for meleers who don't need insane amounts of feats.


Personally I haven't found Warforged to be particularly overpowered. The highest AC they'll ever be able to get is Dex+7, unless they spend a feat on Mithral Body, Ironwood Body, Adamantine Body, or Unarmored. (They could also spend the extra gp for Bracers, but most people won't prefer that). -2 to Wis means they're more vulnerable to Will saves, which are the bane of melee combatants.

IMO, their biggest limiting factor is healing. Either the party arcane caster is forced to double as the party healer, or the Warforged takes a level of Warforged Artificer to help healing himself. While the Con bonus helps keep him alive, it also means it takes more spells to heal him up to full. In every group I've ever seen that had a Warforged in it, he was a giant drain on the party's funds.

That said, they really are pretty good for melee. They're immune to a good portion of the status ailments that make life difficult for melee'ers. They make terrific Barbarians since they're immune to fatigue. Their stat bonus generally helps, their stat penalties generally don't hurt. Built-in Light Fortification Armor and free stabilization at -1 to -9. All stuff melee classes might want to have.

So, really nice bonuses, but some really big drawbacks. I'd call them just about balanced.

[Soranar]

Warforged are balanced IMO but most DMs I know (me included) find them a bit too silly for some builds (Vow of Poverty comes to mind)

kobolds do have really interesting combos, but I wouldn't say they're that broken except for dragonwrought feats and even then

str -4 and con -2 is hardly tier 1, hell the carrying capacity alone can make many builds impossible with them

again people complain because they make really good sorcerers

half-orcs definitely got the worst of it (why no CON +2?)

elves, well, they're elves they should have some drawback somewhere just for being themselves, a CON hit was probably the only logical choice from their description in early fantasy books

they also get a lot of prestige classes and classes reserved for them

the more I learn about anthropomorphic races and the like, the more I come to rely on good DMs to balance the game

halflings would be fine except for the Strongheart type

finally humans are supposed to dominate the world (well outside of Ravenloft) so their power is probably justified

[deuxhero]

Deep Imaskari. How is this not LA +1, when Sharakim and Blues are?



What? Spell clutch is replicated for only 1000 gold, they take a dex hit (big for casters). Low light vision isn't that good, +4 hide checks, only in 1 terrian (admittedly the type of terrain in the games title works for it)



IMO, their biggest limiting factor is healing. Either the party arcane caster is forced to double as the party healer, or the Warforged takes a level of Warforged Artificer to help healing himself. While the Con bonus helps keep him alive, it also means it takes more spells to heal him up to full. In every group I've ever seen that had a Warforged in it, he was a giant drain on the party's funds.


What stops him from buying the wizard a wand of repair light damage and heal like everyone else?

[Samb]

Because it has no stats benefit attached without a feat (and the only one I know of is just 1 less UMD) or a prestige class (that may or may not be legal)?
Stat bonus= good? Then why are humans consistantly ranked high?

Change shape at will that is undetectable by magic basically makes disguise an obsolete skill, and lets not forget all the cool stuff that comes from changing shape. Take metamorphic transfer or assume Su ability to gain there PLA/SLA as well (not sure if this legal but I don't see why not).

Then there's changling rogue which gets 10+INT skill ranks, and we all know a rogue can never have too much skill. This is easily one of the best races around for any scoundrel.

I second Synad. Great for any class, thanks to having extra actions, great will saves, great bonuses to knowledge and psi/spellcraft skills, darkvision, +2 on any d20 roll, aberetion subtype and lots of PP. Really can't go wrong with Synad.

Warforge are actually really good as artificers and shapers.

[deuxhero]

Statistical in this case is "crunch" not "ability scores".

[Optimystik]

Change shape at will that is undetectable by magic basically makes disguise an obsolete skill

Nitpick - True Seeing can spot a changeling's natural form.


and lets not forget all the cool stuff that comes from changing shape. Take metamorphic transfer or assume Su ability to gain there PLA/SLA as well (not sure if this legal but I don't see why not).

It's close, but I'd say no. The changeling ability is "As Disguise Self," while Assume Supernatural Ability requires "a polymorph effect." DS is not a polymorph effect, even though the changeling version is not strictly an illusion.

[Telonius]

What stops him from buying the wizard a wand of repair light damage and heal like everyone else?

Everybody else has a lower Con score, smaller hit dice than a Barbarian, and is being healed with a wand of Lesser Vigor - which doesn't function at all on a Warforged. (As a DM I see no reason not to allow the Wizard to research the arcane equivalent Repair spell, but that's in houserule/homebrew territory and still requires more GP due to more HP needed).

[Samb]

Nitpick - True Seeing can spot a changeling's natural form.
bah you're right. Still neat though.




It's close, but I'd say no. The changeling ability is "As Disguise Self," while Assume Supernatural Ability requires "a polymorph effect." DS is not a polymorph effect, even though the changeling version is not strictly an illusion.

I'd say yes, because it is a physical change as it clearly states in the description, which is what metamorphosis and polymorph are. Bad wording since disguise self is a illusionary effect while minor shape change is a physical effect.

[Boci]

I'd say yes, because it is a physical change as it clearly states in the description, which is what metamorphosis and polymorph are. Bad wording since disguise self is a illusionary effect while minor shape change is a physical effect.

Just rule that it doesn't? Then changlings are no longer overpowered.

[Optimystik]

I'd say yes, because it is a physical change as it clearly states in the description, which is what metamorphosis and polymorph are. Bad wording since disguise self is a illusionary effect while minor shape change is a physical effect.

The problem is that AssSu specifically requires a polymorph effect (i.e. has the polymorph descriptor) which the Changeling ability does not have.

[Tyndmyr]

Ghost?

I don't recall if it's a race, or a template applied to a race, but I recall it being utterly broken at low levels.

[Zeta Kai]

Non-psionic thri-kreen. They have no overtly psionic abilities (so, no psi-like abilities), but they get 4 claw attacks (and 4 arms to quad-wield weapons, or wield 1 weapon 4-handed, or 2 weapons 2-handed), a poisoned bite attack, bonuses to Str, Dex, and Wis, penalties to Int and Cha, +30 on Jump checks, do not need sleep (and are immune to sleep effects), treat chatkchas and gythkas as martial weapons, Darkvision, +3 natural armor, a base speed of 40 ft, and have elves as a staple of their diets, all for +1 LA (which can be bought off) and 2 monstrous humanoid HD (which can be retrained).

Oh, and they're (obviously) monstrous humanoids. Big ninja bug-men.

Can I get a 'hell yeah!'?

Hell yeah.

[arguskos]

Personally I haven't found Warforged to be particularly overpowered. The highest AC they'll ever be able to get is Dex+7, unless they spend a feat on Mithral Body, Ironwood Body, Adamantine Body, or Unarmored. (They could also spend the extra gp for Bracers, but most people won't prefer that). -2 to Wis means they're more vulnerable to Will saves, which are the bane of melee combatants.
They can enchant themselves, or so their MM3 entry states. Adamantine Body+enchantments=full plate like anyone else.


IMO, their biggest limiting factor is healing. Either the party arcane caster is forced to double as the party healer, or the Warforged takes a level of Warforged Artificer to help healing himself. While the Con bonus helps keep him alive, it also means it takes more spells to heal him up to full. In every group I've ever seen that had a Warforged in it, he was a giant drain on the party's funds.
Eh, just buy a wand of repair x damage. Any setting with Warforged has the Repair line, otherwise, the DM is being a jerk.


That said, they really are pretty good for melee. They're immune to a good portion of the status ailments that make life difficult for melee'ers. They make terrific Barbarians since they're immune to fatigue. Their stat bonus generally helps, their stat penalties generally don't hurt. Built-in Light Fortification Armor and free stabilization at -1 to -9. All stuff melee classes might want to have.
Yeah, they're pretty good.


So, really nice bonuses, but some really big drawbacks. I'd call them just about balanced.
Well, the drawbacks aren't that major really. The big issue I see is that they have the healing issues, but that's easily dealt with. I wouldn't call them overpowered, I'd call them solid and fun. :smallcool:

[Boci]

Ghost?

I don't recall if it's a race, or a template applied to a race, but I recall it being utterly broken at low levels.

Template from ghostwalk I believe. La: 0.


Hell yeah.

Just to clarify in case you do not nkow that is not a typo from Lycanthromancer.

[Blackfang108]

Azurin (MoI) gets all the human benefits plus free essentia.

No Extra Skill Points.

[Draz74]

Non-psionic thri-kreen. [snip] (and 4 arms to quad-wield weapons, or wield 1 weapon 4-handed, or 2 weapons 2-handed), a poisoned bite attack, bonuses to Str, Dex, and Wis, penalties to Int and Cha, +30 on Jump checks, do not need sleep (and are immune to sleep effects), treat chatkchas and gythkas as martial weapons, Darkvision, +3 natural armor, a base speed of 40 ft, and have elves as a staple of their diets, all for +1 LA (which can be bought off) and 2 monstrous humanoid HD (which can be retrained).

Strangely, I still have yet to see a fully fleshed-out build taking full advantage of the obvious synergy between Thri-Kreen and the Tiger Claw discipline.

Someday I'll get around to statting out a Thri-Kreen Warblade 18, dual-wielding Falchions and throwing in a healthy dose of Diamond Mind on the side.


No Extra Skill Points.

And an annoyingly specific Favored Class, if you actually happen to play with XP penalty rules.

[Danin]

I seem to recall something about a mineral warrior template that caused a bit of a ruckus when I tried to play one in my campaign... could be that it was stacked onto an earth dwarf. Could be that I had a greathorn maul (That the DM approved without looking at) with impact on it.

Whatever the case, he was inexplicably "teleported back to his home plane, never to return again. Ever." at the end of the first session.

I've also heard things about pixies that make me want to weep for game balance and it's untimely passing.

[hamishspence]

Karsites, from Tome of Magic, appear quite powerful for an LA +2 race

(spell resistance, heal from spells resisted, DR/magic, +2 Con, +2 Cha, can suppress an enemy's magic item each time they hit the enemy in melee and the enemy fails a Will save, etc)

They can't be arcane or divine spellcasters, but they can be warlocks, binders, etc.

[Zaq]

I'd like to second the hate for Deep Imaskari. Not because they're truly broken, but I find it rather noxious that they're a race specifically designed to make Wizards even better, especially at low levels (when they're by no means weak, but they are certainly at their weakest). A 1st level DI wizard has a pretty big advantage over a 1st level human wizard. By 3rd or 4th level the difference has lessened a lot, but still, it's the principle of the thing. Wizards don't need to be given something that specifically makes them better.

[deuxhero]

A DI's abilitys are 1000 gold!

[Optimystik]

No Extra Skill Points.

And favored class Soulborn instead of Any too. But the bonus feat is by far the larger advantage, and if you're going incarnum anyway the essentia can make up for the skill points easily.

[A Ladder]

Ok.. i'm not the most experienced D player, but why do people constantly talk about the kobold being good?


KOBOLD CHARACTERS
Kobold characters possess the following racial traits.
— –4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution.
—Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls,
+4 bonus on Hide checks, –4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting
and carrying limits 3/4 those of Medium characters.
—A kobold’s base land speed is 30 feet.
—Darkvision out to 60 feet.
—Racial Skills: A kobold character has a +2 racial bonus on
Craft (trapmaking), Profession (miner), and Search checks.
—Racial Feats: A kobold character gains feats according to its
character class.
— +1 natural armor bonus.
—Special Qualities (see above): Light sensitivity.
—Automatic Languages: Draconic. Bonus Languages: Common,
Undercommon.
—Favored Class: Sorcerer.
—Level adjustment +0.

a net -4 to base abilities (and people complained about half orcs...???)
light sensitivity blows.
3/4 carrying capacity AND a str deduction. wow. they won't be able to carry a thing.

people talk about the dragon templates or whatever, (what books are those in btw?) but without those, just using the 3 core books, the kobold sucks sooooooooo much.

[deuxhero]

Races of the Dragon web enchancment has a better, still LA+0 kobold with no light sensitivity (and you can buy goggles to nerf that weakness for under 100 gold)

[Optimystik]

Ok.. i'm not the most experienced D player, but why do people constantly talk about the kobold being good?

...

people talk about the dragon templates or whatever, (what books are those in btw?) but without those, just using the 3 core books, the kobold sucks sooooooooo much.

0 LA dragons are always useful.

Races of the Dragon has most of the bonus material for them, with Draconomicon also supplying a few.

[JaronK]

Ok.. i'm not the most experienced D player, but why do people constantly talk about the kobold being good?

a net -4 to base abilities (and people complained about half orcs...???)
light sensitivity blows.
3/4 carrying capacity AND a str deduction. wow. they won't be able to carry a thing.

people talk about the dragon templates or whatever, (what books are those in btw?) but without those, just using the 3 core books, the kobold sucks sooooooooo much.

It's outside of Core that Kobolds get good. Races of the Dragon is the Kobold book (also Dragonborn and those other draconic guys), and it introduces a bunch of Kobold only options that absolutely rock.

JaronK

[Zaq]

A DI's abilitys are 1000 gold!

Which you don't have at level 1 or 2. That, combined with the +2 INT, makes them really nasty 1st level wizards.

I've already said that by level 3 or so their advantages have decreased significantly, but once again, it's the principle of the thing.

[deuxhero]

It can survive better at a level housecats can kill you, then loses every single advantage by the time you can survive a housecat and that makes it overpowered?

[Optimystik]

Am I missing something? I don't see anything about DI starting off rich... (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003b)

[deuxhero]

Spell Clutch=1st level Pearl of Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#pearlofPower)=1000 gold.

[Optimystik]

Spell Clutch=1st level Pearl of Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#pearlofPower)=1000 gold.

Ah. Is that all? I don't see how that makes them broken. They make good Wizards and Archivists, but that's it.

[deuxhero]

I don't know, dex is important for both of them.

[Sinfire Titan]

Ok.. i'm not the most experienced D player, but why do people constantly talk about the kobold being good?



a net -4 to base abilities (and people complained about half orcs...???)
light sensitivity blows.
3/4 carrying capacity AND a str deduction. wow. they won't be able to carry a thing.

people talk about the dragon templates or whatever, (what books are those in btw?) but without those, just using the 3 core books, the kobold sucks sooooooooo much.

Core 3: Yes. Still better than Elves though, as they get +3 AC VS +1 AC. Also, their gear weighs less than normal gear (3/4's carrying capacity doesn't really hurt that much when your gear weighs 1/2 the normal weight). Outside Core? It starts with Pun-Pun, and works it's way down a wide road.

[erikun]

Yeah, the various Dragonwrought builds are what make Kobolds absurd. Without that, they have good AC and good bonuses (extra +2 to hit? sure) but aren't overpowering.

I Nth the Lesser Aasimar, along with several other Lesser-X races that get far more than their LA +0 should allow. I will fully agree that Whisper Gnomes are crazy good, and several other gnomes get some very sexy bonuses too. (Forest Gnome: +8 to hide, +12 in "wooded" areas)

[Sharkman1231]

What's a Necropolitan?
If possible could I get the stats?

[Runestar]

I would argue that it is the blue goblin which is too weak for its LA, as I fail to see how +2int by itself could possibly warrant +1LA.

But deep imaskari is really good, especially since they can take that regional feat which makes them a native outsider (more alter self/polymorph goodness), plus automatic qualification for eldritch knight/abjurant champion. However, I do not think it is strong enough to warrant being bumped up to LA+1 category.

Interesting thing about changelings is that they also qualify for the warshaper prc, which is really the only reason why I would play one...:smallcool:

[Boci]

What's a Necropolitan?
If possible could I get the stats?

crystalkeep.com Its an la:0 undead with no state bonuses or penalties.

[taltamir]

Elves with chaos shuffle... replace your starting martial weapon proficiencies with feats of your choice :)

[Sharkman1231]

crystalkeep.com Its an la:0 undead with no state bonuses or penalties.

Ahh! the PDF isn't working! The other ones are, but the one I happen to be wanting doesn't.

[Kelb_Panthera]

crystalkeep.com Its an la:0 undead with no state bonuses or penalties.

I'm not sure what CK says, but necropolitan is a template in Libris Mortis: the book of bad latin (or book of the undead if you want to stick to the printed title :smalltongue:)

[FMArthur]

Lesser planetouched, whisper gnomes, and strongheart halflings top my list of overpowered LA 0 races, discluding Savage Species on account of it being a pile of ash in my fireplace and thus unreadable.

To be totally honest, I think 3.5 is a lot more balanced without Forgotten Realms material. I don't know why so many seem to assume it to be allowed by default.

[Boci]

I'm not sure what CK says, but necropolitan is a template in Libris Mortis: the book of bad latin (or book of the undead if you want to stick to the printed title :smalltongue:)

Sorry, should have been clear. Yes it is an LA: 0 template (or effectivly LA: 0) from Libris Mortis that makes you undead and grants some minor bonuses.

[Boci]

Ahh! the PDF isn't working! The other ones are, but the one I happen to be wanting doesn't.

Necropolitant: Normal looking, except for dry skin, pale eyes, etc.

Acquired Template that may be applied to any Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid

Becomes an Undead (augmented). Gains Turn Resistance +2, Con becomes —

Other abilities: Resist Control – +2 Profane bonus on Will saves to resist ControlUndead.
Looses 1 Level & 1,000 XP due to the Ritual of Crucimigration
Unnatural Resilience – heals at the same rate as a living persondoes (i.e., based on level), though magical healing also function normally.

Pretty good, especially when combined with the elf for free dex, but you'd want to use a class with a low hitdie. d12 is only as good as d8+2. Say, dreadnecromancer...

[JaronK]

Or you can have a Dread Necromancer make you into a Necropolitan in a Descrated area including an unholy alter. Now you have +4 Str and Dex as enhancement bonuses and D12+4 HP/HD. Not too shabby, especially if you then disguise yourself as a living person.

JaronK

[nekomata2]

I've also heard things about pixies that make me want to weep for game balance and it's untimely passing.

I have no idea how a constant Greater Invisibility, along with everything else they get, such as SR 15 + Class levels, 60 ft fly speed, and their spell like abilities warrant a +4 LA...it should be higher, or it should just be regular invisibility or something...

[JaronK]

Play higher levels, and you'll understand. At low levels their low HD means anything that sees invisible can usually one shot them. At high levels, a LOT of enemies see invisible, and those lost HD are still hurting compared to what they'd be getting for high end class abilities.

Consider that a Mineral Warrior Half Minotaur Water Orc is just +2 LA, and is far more dangerous from a combat perspective, while a Shadow Whispergnome's ability to disappear remains in the high levels (if he took Darkstalker, which he should) long after the Pixie's invisibility is little more than a parlor trick and also has just +2LA.

JaronK

[2xMachina]

The Pixie should have an Invisible (metamagic) fog spell around him at all times.

Can see invisibility? You see fog. Can't see invisibility? You can't see me either.

Now, blindsense/mindsight might sense you too though.

[SurlySeraph]

To be totally honest, I think 3.5 is a lot more balanced without Forgotten Realms material. I don't know why so many seem to assume it to be allowed by default.

Because FR is popular. And awesome. :smallyuk:

With that said, you kind of have a point. Incantatrix, most of Serpent Kingdoms, Dweomerkeeper, Initiate of Mystra, etc. In my opinion, FR also has a lot of just-powerful-enough things that increase balance and provide interesting options (Runescarred Berserker, Initiate of the Arcane Order for rangers and paladins, Shou Disciple is the closest thing to a playable pure Monk we've got, etc.)

[Thurbane]

Or you can have a Dread Necromancer make you into a Necropolitan in a Descrated area including an unholy alter. Now you have +4 Str and Dex as enhancement bonuses and D12+4 HP/HD. Not too shabby, especially if you then disguise yourself as a living person.

JaronK
That raises a point - would a necropolitan gain the benefit from any Corpecrafter feats the caster that performs the crucimigration has?

[Raging Gene Ray]

Change shape at will that is undetectable by magic basically makes disguise an obsolete skill, and lets not forget all the cool stuff that comes from changing shape. Take metamorphic transfer or assume Su ability to gain there PLA/SLA as well (not sure if this legal but I don't see why not).

What are you talking about? I don't know where Metamorphic Transfer is from, but I do know that Changelings are only capable of turning into other Humanoid Forms. No Outsiders, no Elementals, it's pretty much Disguise Self at will (easily replicated by a 1st level spell or a Hat of Disguise), not Alter Self at will.

I'm not sure how many Humanoids there are with Supernatural abilities.

However, I will agree that Races of Eberron made changeling wizards overpowered. I'm surprised you didn't mention the Recaster. It's like the Incantatrix only easier to understand and compacted down into a convenient 5 level progression.

[Pangloo]

The incarnate-construct template also deserves to be mentioned. It can make some pretty dumb melee builds. Constructs can lose thier construct keyword in exchange for a -2 LA. That hurts but getting half-minotaur and lolth-touched with an LA of 0 makes up for it. (+18 str +14 con -2 to the other 4)

For even more nonsense add in half-ogre and dragonborn though I have yet to find a DM that will let something with 5 templates in. (+22 str +16 con -4 dex -4 int -2 wis -4 cha)

[YossarianLives]

Warforged.

I once played in a all warforged party. The group was trying to reach an island several miles from the coast. But the island was cursed so we couldn't find anyone to give us passage.
We decided to walk.

[atemu1234]

Mildly OP is the quorbred template. Now all my theurging is based around intelligence.

[Petrocorus]

For that matter, core Elves could use a buff. Like a straight +2 Int or something. -2 Con is pretty much the worst penalty you can have in this game; at least make it worth their while. Hell, they should treat the Elven Xblades as Martials automatically; that only helps warrior types anyways and elven warriors are pretty hurting right now.

Personally, i always thought that the Con hit was hard, but not that hard. The Dex bonus can potentially saves more HP. At least, it's not worthy of all the waste people are laying on Elves on this board. However, fixing the Elf is not so complicated, move the penalty to Str, and the Elf becomes much better for many builds, including some melee builds.


White Dragonspawn is known to Char Op as fully deserving of the title "Overpowered".
What books the Dragonspawn template is in, BTW?


My general idea is if it is 19 times out of 20 better than a human for a class it is probably too good.

Which is also exactly why Humans are too good, 19 times out of 20, they are the best race for a build, or at least the second best one.


Change shape at will that is undetectable by magic basically makes disguise an obsolete skill, and lets not forget all the cool stuff that comes from changing shape.
Change Shape is detectable as any other polymorph / metamorphosis effect.


It's close, but I'd say no. The changeling ability is "As Disguise Self," while Assume Supernatural Ability requires "a polymorph effect." DS is not a polymorph effect, even though the changeling version is not strictly an illusion.
It is a Change Shape effect, Disguise Self only describes its limitations.

[Deadkitten]

Lesser Feyri? Don't now if that's the right name..
Get all that +2 LA goodness.
Counts as an elf and can get enervation 1/day. Qualifies for magic in the blood too to make that 3/day. and host of other stuff.

[tyckspoon]

The incarnate-construct template also deserves to be mentioned. It can make some pretty dumb melee builds. Constructs can lose thier construct keyword in exchange for a -2 LA. That hurts but getting half-minotaur and lolth-touched with an LA of 0 makes up for it. (+18 str +14 con -2 to the other 4)

For even more nonsense add in half-ogre and dragonborn though I have yet to find a DM that will let something with 5 templates in. (+22 str +16 con -4 dex -4 int -2 wis -4 cha)

You can't have a Half-Minotaur Incarnate Construct, because Incarnate Construct requires you to start with a construct and constructs are not valid subjects to have Half-Minotaur applied (unless you go through some serious shenanigans with yet more templates first, which tends to kill the LA benefits you're trying to get out of Incarnate Construct.) Most of what would be the more powerful templates to use with Incarnate suffer from that; they aren't applicable to Constructs. Or after you apply Incarnate you still end up with more LA than the statmods are worth.

[mabriss lethe]

Kalashtar is a pretty broken race, mostly because you can easily turn one into a full manifester (albeit with limited power points) without too much effort, with ML based on Hit Dice and not class levels.

[Necroticplague]

The Gheden template is incredibly potent. For a mere 1 LA, you get immunity to all nonlethal damage while getting to keep your CON score and type. This is a benefit that normally you need to blow of lot of levels in PRCs to get, and thus normally don't have until level 9 or 10. However, you can combine this with regeneration to make yourself incredibly tough at level 2.

[Coidzor]

Phaerimm because getting automatic sorcerer casting with every HD they gain, regardless of source, is just plain bad wording.

[Eldariel]

I find my lack of tact in the early posts disturbing. Anyways, this thread is from 2010. It might be more productive to start a new one.

Worth noting that due to Max Dex bonus for armor on mundanes and shapeshifting for casters, it is rare enough for racial Dex-bonus to increase AC.

[sorcererlover]

Any race that gives +2 to INT or CHA or WIS with 0 ECL.

[atemu1234]

I find my lack of tact in the early posts disturbing. Anyways, this thread is from 2010. It might be more productive to start a new one.

Worth noting that due to Max Dex bonus for armor on mundanes and shapeshifting for casters, it is rare enough for racial Dex-bonus to increase AC.

Ask and it shall be done. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?388774-Most-Overpowered-Races-Templates-Combinations&p=18547464#post18547464)