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AustontheGreat1
2010-01-05, 12:04 AM
So i recently found out that there are 2 different versions of the Incantatrix class. I've always been familiar with the Magic of Faerun version, but apparently there is one in Players Guide to Faerun as well. This may not be anything new to you guys but i am really excited about it.

Can anyone tell me what the primary differences are and which one is better?

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-05, 12:18 AM
The one you find for free online? That's the worse one.

And it's still overpowered.

arguskos
2010-01-05, 01:27 AM
The PGtF one is the less powerful, IIRC, and it's still crazy strong. Some minute things were tweaked, but not really much.

sofawall
2010-01-05, 01:35 AM
The PGtF one is the less powerful, IIRC, and it's still crazy strong. Some minute things were tweaked, but not really much.

Other way around. 3.5 version is ridiculous, 3.0 version is powerful.

arguskos
2010-01-05, 01:39 AM
Other way around. 3.5 version is ridiculous, 3.0 version is powerful.
Dammit. :smallannoyed: I just can't remember anything right today. D: Thanks for the correction though.

Boci
2010-01-05, 06:01 AM
Usually when you go into a full casting wizard PrC you waste 1-2 feats to meet the requirments and then loose out on 2 bonus feats. The 10 level MoF one requires 1 useless feat and givs three.

2xMachina
2010-01-05, 06:55 AM
And that feat tax can be paid with the Otyugh Hole. Only 10k I think.

You also pay with another banned school though.

Hmm, it'll be interesting to go Changeling Wizard Focused Dual Specialist Incantratrix. (A bit iffy on RAW, since you're using a ACF and racial sub lvl).

Banned schools? All, except Illusion/Transmutation (you're specialist for these) and Divination (cannot be banned). Kinda suck, but sounds fun. (Now, if you gestalt it with, say StP Erudite...)

Boci
2010-01-05, 07:07 AM
And that feat tax can be paid with the Otyugh Hole. Only 10k I think.

Oh great, so you can actually end up with more feats than a striaght wizard.


You also pay with another banned school though.

Not if you already specialize in abjuration.

Duke of URL
2010-01-05, 07:14 AM
Incantatrix is one of the first "prime offenders" I offer up when showing examples of PrCs that are patently better than staying in the base class.

The fact that Wizards gain practically no class features (except bonus feats) makes most Wizard PrCs fall into this category, but at least most of them require more annoying pre-reqs.

Incantatrixes actually wind up with more bonus feats over 10 levels than they would have gained as a pure Wizard, plus their other abilities.

2xMachina
2010-01-05, 07:18 AM
Hmm, I think the Magic of Faerun one is 3.0

The 3.5 one (PGtF) makes you ban 1 school regardless (and you must not ban abjur, so the changeling 3 school only doesn't work). However, gives 4 feats.

lesser_minion
2010-01-05, 08:11 AM
From what I can tell, the MoF one is strong, but not completely horrible - you don't get an obscene number of metamagic reducers at least.

It looks like the MoF version is just a case of giving you more than it takes from you, rather than basically giving every single spell you actually bother to cast the benefit of an obscene amount of metamagic fuelled by a cheesed out skill check.

MoF improved metamagic also doesn't let you buy off all of your metamagic by slapping it on a zero-cost metamagic feat (bizarrely, I think 3.5 was supposed to drop the concept anyway, in favour of just granting the benefit to every spell you cast).

valadil
2010-01-05, 10:01 AM
IIRC the 3.5 one is broken because it lets you make spellcraft checks to retroactively add metamagic to duration spells. You can chain your Shield and then make it last all day, for instance.

It also has checks for taking over a duration spell cast by another wizard. This would be interesting if it weren't limited to incanatrices. But it's pretty silly that you can steal someone else's spell and they have no mechanics to take it back.

Oh and on top of that it gives 4 bonus metamagic feats and metamagic cost reduction among other things.

Kylarra
2010-01-05, 10:16 AM
Incantatrix is one of the first "prime offenders" I offer up when showing examples of PrCs that are patently better than staying in the base class.

The fact that Wizards gain practically no class features (except bonus feats) makes most Wizard PrCs fall into this category, but at least most of them require more annoying pre-reqs.

Incantatrixes actually wind up with more bonus feats over 10 levels than they would have gained as a pure Wizard, plus their other abilities.Eh, I'd rather offer up loremaster than incantrix. While incantrix is certainly OP, whereas loremaster is certainly not, the average wizard can just fall into loremaster accidentally with a single feat investment that they can quickly recoup and loses nothing at all. Whereas, incantrix does require you to specialize without "bonuses" and while it does recoup you sheer feat numbers, they all "have" to be metamagic.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-05, 10:20 AM
Summary:

Otoyugh Hole is in Complete Scoundrel, and is not Incantatrix specific. I think it was less than 10k, too....like 5 or something. Anyhow, cheap for a feat. Even cheaper if you can just find the location to stay for a week.

MoF version is 3.0, and generally weaker. However, it gets the metamagic reducer a level earlier. I presume this is of value in certain highly optimized builds, and the class offers some fun stuff overall.

PgTF is 3.5, and offers pretty much the best stuff most mages want. Bonus metamagic feats. The ability to apply metamagic to spells cast by others. The ability to apply it to spells cast off items. Free metamagic uses/day. The ability to apply metamagic feats to existing effects. -1 metamagic modifier, just like the old version. Spellcraft needs to be pumped for most of these to function properly, but that's quite doable. Useful either as a straight 10 class, or as a dip to persist buffs all day.

Now, on the flip side, it's got some nasty requirements, including banning another school of magic. You also need to waste two feats of Spell Focus and GSF abjuration, which is almost entirely worthless. Iron Will is at least somewhat useful.

It's a really rough school for focused specialists...sure, its got great abilities, but banning four schools sucks.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-05, 10:24 AM
Loremaster is probably a bigger offender, at least in a dip, yeah. Really easy to pick up, and it trades an early feat for a later feat. Plus, you get some mild bonuses and such, and it's not hard to get into. So, at least a dip of it goes well with nearly any wizard build, and going the full 10 is neither hard nor less useful than wizard. You lose bonus metamagic feats, but you gain secrets much more rapidly, which replicate several okish feats.

Boci
2010-01-05, 10:32 AM
IIRC the 3.5 one is broken because it lets you make spellcraft checks to retroactively add metamagic to duration spells. You can chain your Shield and then make it last all day, for instance.

It also has checks for taking over a duration spell cast by another wizard. This would be interesting if it weren't limited to incanatrices. But it's pretty silly that you can steal someone else's spell and they have no mechanics to take it back.

Oh and on top of that it gives 4 bonus metamagic feats and metamagic cost reduction among other things.

So during the great update to 3.5 wizards looked at their customer feedback and some genius went "Hey look, sllortfognik says the Incantatrix is underpowered. Better fix that by allowing them to steal other casters spells and more free metamagic use. Oh and give the monk some minor numeral benefits,"

valadil
2010-01-05, 10:36 AM
So during the great update to 3.5 wizards looked at their customer feedback and some genius went "Hey look, sllortfognik says the Incantatrix is underpowered. Better fix that by allowing them to steal other casters spells and more free metamagic use. Oh and give the monk some minor numeral benefits,"

Yeah, pretty much. If you want to give WotC the benefit of the doubt, it's possible they were testing new mechanics. I wouldn't object to the spell stealing if other casters could steal back. If they later released that ability as a feat it wouldn't be as big of a deal (although the incanatrix would still be giving out 5 free feats).

2xMachina
2010-01-05, 10:38 AM
Summary:

Otoyugh Hole is in Complete Scoundrel, and is not Incantatrix specific. I think it was less than 10k, too....like 5 or something. Anyhow, cheap for a feat. Even cheaper if you can just find the location to stay for a week.

MoF version is 3.0, and generally weaker. However, it gets the metamagic reducer a level earlier. I presume this is of value in certain highly optimized builds, and the class offers some fun stuff overall.

PgTF is 3.5, and offers pretty much the best stuff most mages want. Bonus metamagic feats. The ability to apply metamagic to spells cast by others. The ability to apply it to spells cast off items. Free metamagic uses/day. The ability to apply metamagic feats to existing effects. -1 metamagic modifier, just like the old version. Spellcraft needs to be pumped for most of these to function properly, but that's quite doable. Useful either as a straight 10 class, or as a dip to persist buffs all day.

Now, on the flip side, it's got some nasty requirements, including banning another school of magic. You also need to waste two feats of Spell Focus and GSF abjuration, which is almost entirely worthless. Iron Will is at least somewhat useful.

It's a really rough school for focused specialists...sure, its got great abilities, but banning four schools sucks.

Actually, the 3.5 does not need the SF. The 3.0 does.

And well for the 3.0 version, dip Master Specialist to get them if you care (take SF, get GSF with 1 lvl).

Cyclocone
2010-01-05, 10:43 AM
Look at the 3.0 version (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803) and contemplate the following sentance.


Because they have little offensive combat magic against normal creatures, [incantatrixes] prefer to avoid combat or travel with companions who balance their shortcomings.

:smallsigh:

I'm not at all sure WotC are even just remotely aware of what they make.

Optimystik
2010-01-05, 10:49 AM
Druid has Planar Shepherd, Cleric has Dweomerkeeper... it's nothing to get worked up over.

Boci
2010-01-05, 10:50 AM
I'm not at all sure WotC are even just remotely aware of what they make.

Read their dead levels post:


The monk is the only other core class, aside from the barbarian, that has no dead levels. Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a

So there you have it folks. The monk is a wonderful class and free metamagic has limited offensive aplication. Although to be fair, "unique" hit the nail on the head and colourful doesn't have to be positive.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-05, 10:54 AM
Actually, the 3.5 does not need the SF. The 3.0 does.

And well for the 3.0 version, dip Master Specialist to get them if you care (take SF, get GSF with 1 lvl).

Oh, really? Damn.

Yeah, I don't know what they were thinking with "lack offensive options" or w/e they said. I mean, its not as if they lose many wizard options for attack.

I think the idea was a pure battlefield control/buffing PrC, which would be powerful in itself, and the incantatrix can certainly be played that way, but it doesn't have to be.

ken-do-nim
2010-01-05, 12:11 PM
Look at the 3.0 version (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803) and contemplate the following sentence:

Because they have little offensive combat magic against normal creatures, [incantatrixes] prefer to avoid combat or travel with companions who balance their shortcomings.

:smallsigh:

I'm not at all sure WotC are even just remotely aware of what they make.

That quote is copied straight out of the text for the 1st edition incantatrix, just so you know. (Dragon magazine issue 90). In 1E, incantatrixes have a separate spell list from magic-users and illusionists, in fact combining a bit of both, but are low on attack spells, hence the quote. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever in the 3E version where it is a prestige class that keeps the same spell list as before (albeit with more banned schools).

ken-do-nim
2010-01-05, 12:22 PM
For those interested, I just started a discussion about the 1E incantatrix class over on Dragonsfoot. http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=40186

taltamir
2010-01-05, 01:15 PM
That quote is copied straight out of the text for the 1st edition incantatrix, just so you know. (Dragon magazine issue 90). In 1E, incantatrixes have a separate spell list from magic-users and illusionists, in fact combining a bit of both, but are low on attack spells, hence the quote. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever in the 3E version where it is a prestige class that keeps the same spell list as before (albeit with more banned schools).

so its not that they played the incantantrix (3e) and concluded that it is weak, its that they set out to recreate a weak 1e class in 3e and ended up with a class that they thought still satisfied the whole being "weak" thing?

he gains a second specialized school, loses only 1 school of choice for it (except transmutation, to prevent people from accidently gimping themselves)...
he can still use items from banned school, and he keeps all the already known spells from banned school...
a generalist incantantrix is strictly better than a specialist in any school because he only had to bad one school for it and can still use items of banned school.

to top it off, he gets extra metamagic feats, -1 on all metamagic feats, and a few other nice things.

I can't think of a more powerful class.

2xMachina
2010-01-05, 01:22 PM
Well, if you want to talk about the 3.0 one...

If it's an epic character, start taking Incantatrix at lvl 18. You've banned 1 school, but since you can use the spells you already knew, you've lost absolutely nothing. ECL 27, you now have 2 specialist schools, and is incantatrix to boot.

Boci
2010-01-05, 01:25 PM
I can't think of a more powerful class.

Look 5 posts above.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-05, 01:27 PM
I would argue for Initiate of Mystra, Shadowcraft Mage, and IoT7V being at least in the same class of power as Incantatrix.

Edit: Yknow, we should make a tier system for PrCs.

Tavar
2010-01-05, 01:35 PM
We actually do have one.

Though I'd argue that while IoT7V is a good PrC, it's no where near the power of the others.

2xMachina
2010-01-05, 01:35 PM
Pack ScM on top of Incantatrix. ScM with Arcane Thesis/Easy/Practical is good anyway, so you can pile even more metamagic, with 1 spell. With the capstone, that's -4 lvls PER metamagic. So, pile on the metamagics with no spell slot adjust.

Also, try getting a permanent Schism item. Now, get that schism mind of yours to add metamagic your blast spells for free.

Tyndmyr
2010-01-05, 01:41 PM
We actually do have one.

Though I'd argue that while IoT7V is a good PrC, it's no where near the power of the others.

Also, by RAW, red wizard is freaking godly, due to leadership abuse.

IoT7V is awesome because the first rule of gaining ultimate power is "Don't die". It's pretty good at that. Also, the final ability is pretty darned useful at killing the only real threat to high level casters...other casters.

It's also shorter, which means it combos terrifically with other high powered PrCs. Incantatrix being the obvious one.

Zaq
2010-01-05, 04:21 PM
There's a reason that the 3.5 Incantatrix is one of the Unholy Trinity (the other two, naturally, being Dweomerkeeper and Planar Shepherd). Any GM who allows these classes in his (or her) game deserves whatever comes to them.

I'd place Incantatrix above ScM just because it's possible to play a ScM that's not the Killer Gnome. (In other words, it requires a little bit of work to actually shatter the ScM into a fine mist of cheddar-flavored dust.) The Incantatrix is a god from the get-go. I guess you could just choose not to pump up your Spellcraft check and thus not abuse Cooperative Metamagic, but they still have Metamagic Spell Trigger, Instant Metamagic, Improved Metamagic, and so on (and I just know there's a way to abuse the spell-stealing abilities, even though the metamagic is the big thing) without even trying.

As for Iot7FV, it's undeniably overpowered, but it's just not in the same zone as Incantatrix. Neither is very much fun to be in a group with, though.

deuxhero
2010-01-05, 04:47 PM
I know Planar Shepard advanced all of a druids abilities and gave outsider wildshape, and Incantatrix has crazy metamagic abuse, where is Dweomerkeeper and what makes it so broken?

hamishspence
2010-01-05, 04:51 PM
Its in Faiths and Pantheons, and, like the Incantatrix, has a metamagic reducer.

It says "metamagic effects cannot be reduced below +1 unless it is already +0"

Result- people saying +0 effects can be reduced to -1, and much metamagic abuse.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-05, 04:54 PM
I know Planar Shepard advanced all of a druids abilities and gave outsider wildshape, and Incantatrix has crazy metamagic abuse, where is Dweomerkeeper and what makes it so broken?


Its in Faiths and Pantheons, and, like the Incantatrix, has a metamagic reducer.

It says "metamagic effects cannot be reduced below +1 unless it is already +0"

Result- people saying +0 effects can be reduced to -1, and much metamagic abuse.

...I don't think that's it. I think it was the one that lets you cast 5 spells/day as a Supernatural ability, removing all components from that spell for those castings.

hamishspence
2010-01-05, 04:58 PM
Good point- the fact that it can abuse metamagic as well is just the icing on the cake.

It does require you to multiclass as an arcane caster though (must be able to cast 2nd level arcane spells).

Draz74
2010-01-05, 04:58 PM
Knowing the Unholy Trio, it's probably both. :smalltongue:

Eldariel
2010-01-05, 05:36 PM
Dweomerkeeper is in Complete Divine Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a). It gets, among other things, this wonderful ability: Supernatural Spell

It does what you think, it makes a spell a Supernatural ability. Which, as you might imagine, is all kinds of broken. Small list:
- Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic.
- Supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks.
- Supernatural abilities do not require any components (yes, that's a free Wish)

And then it might or might not modify the Caster Level and Saving Throw, that part is ambiguous. And the key to entering it is the Magical Training-feat [PGtF] (or similars), enabling you to cast a handful of level 0 arcane spells without wasting levels.

That's the only real prerequisite (aside from Magic-domain, which is pretty good anyways given it's usually offered by the same Gods as the Spell-domain [ANYSPELL!], and has some solid spells) and you can just do so much ridiculous crap with that spell (undispellable persistent Boar's Ferocity + Delay Death, much? Yeah, you're immortal until you end up in an Anti-Magic Field; add Initiate of Mystra and even that doesn't matter - and yeah, you can get Wish through e.g. Luck-domain, and that spell is pretty good for free; or just Gate, Limited Wish, Simulacrum, Ice Assassin, etc. Anything with XP/Expensive Material Cost).


So...yeah. It's just...sick. Oh, I forgot to mention, you also get a Mantle of Spells to cast spontaneously. And other stuff. 'cause Supernatural Spell alone isn't enough.

Kallisti
2010-01-05, 05:51 PM
Dweomerkeeper is in Complete Divine Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a). It gets, among other things, this wonderful ability: Supernatural Spell

It does what you think, it makes a spell a Supernatural ability. Which, as you might imagine, is all kinds of broken. Small list:
- Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic.
- Supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks.
- Supernatural abilities do not require any components (yes, that's a free Wish)

And then it might or might not modify the Caster Level and Saving Throw, that part is ambiguous. And the key to entering it is the Magical Training-feat [PGtF] (or similars), enabling you to cast a handful of level 0 arcane spells without wasting levels.

That's the only real prerequisite (aside from Magic-domain, which is pretty good anyways given it's usually offered by the same Gods as the Spell-domain [ANYSPELL!], and has some solid spells) and you can just do so much ridiculous crap with that spell (undispellable persistent Boar's Ferocity + Delay Death, much? Yeah, you're immortal until you end up in an Anti-Magic Field; add Initiate of Mystra and even that doesn't matter - and yeah, you can get Wish through e.g. Luck-domain, and that spell is pretty good for free; or just Gate, Limited Wish, Simulacrum, Ice Assassin, etc. Anything with XP/Expensive Material Cost).


So...yeah. It's just...sick. Oh, I forgot to mention, you also get a Mantle of Spells to cast spontaneously. And other stuff. 'cause Supernatural Spell alone isn't enough.

All of the abilities are broken. ALL of them. It gets Mantle of Spells 1-5, for lovely spontaneous casting. Never again run out of charm person, glitterdust, or celerity!

Oh, also? Supernatural spell, for free wishes 4/day!

Still not sold? PrC now, and we'll throw in an automatic metamagic enhancer FREE at the 10th level, in addition to the improvements in spellcasting and on the previous abilities! Multiclass now, this is a limited-time offer. Oh wait, no it isn't. Dweomerkeeper is published in an official web enhancement for an official book that most DMs allow. It's in 3.5 to stay.

3 to 1 they update it and the rest of the Unholy Trinity to 4e, and they're even worse.

Eldariel
2010-01-05, 06:10 PM
Yeah, I'm sorry I forgot to mention the Improved Metamagic-bit at the end. Makes Persisting all your buffs slightly easier, I guess.

taltamir
2010-01-05, 11:47 PM
its got so many overpowered abilities, that you wrote an entire paragraph listing them and still forgot some :)

Thames
2010-01-06, 12:00 AM
Incantatrix is one of the first "prime offenders" I offer up when showing examples of PrCs that are patently better than staying in the base class.

Isn't the point of prestige classes to be more powerful than the base one? If the gm wanted a slight reward to their player they'd be called progression classes, or just give a free feat or bonus xp.

taltamir
2010-01-06, 12:03 AM
Isn't the point of prestige classes to be more powerful than the base one? If the gm wanted a slight reward to their player they'd be called progression classes, or just give a free feat or bonus xp.

firstly... there is "more powerful" and "OMFG BBQ~! IT IS OVER 9000!"

secondly... supposedly PrCs are for "character customization" and "growth"... aka, develop the character, show how they change from point A to point B, have an option for a valid character that started as an A but later switched focus or combined two different disciplines (dual progression casters, gishes, etc)

thirdly... if you do use them as more power, then the DM should be very selective and require that you actually quest to join an organization and then to quest to gain ranks in the organization in order to gain levels in the class... which actually wouldn't be half bad.

Grumman
2010-01-06, 02:23 AM
thirdly... if you do use them as more power, then the DM should be very selective and require that you actually quest to join an organization and then to quest to gain ranks in the organization in order to gain levels in the class... which actually wouldn't be half bad.
Actually, it would be very bad. Unless a single organisation offers the PrCs that the entire party wants, you're going to be wasting a lot of time on fetch quests for random teachers. Only one party member is likely to enter the PrC he wants at level 6, the others will have to wait for their turn to come around.

Ashram
2010-01-06, 02:28 AM
Really? No one thinks Radiant Servant of Pelor is that bad? >.>

Eldariel
2010-01-06, 02:31 AM
Really? No one thinks Radiant Servant of Pelor is that bad? >.>

Nowhere near there? Honestly, Dweomerkeeper is the only Cleric PrC even remotely deserving of the title. Though many of their other options like Initiate of Mystra and DMM can do pretty sick stuff. And Contemplative, Divine Disciple and company are staples for a reason.

mikej
2010-01-06, 03:07 AM
Isn't the point of prestige classes to be more powerful than the base one?

That's how I see PrC compared to staying with the base class.

I have played in a game before with 2 of the 3 "Unholy Trinity," It was me ( Incantatrix ) and a good buddy ( Dweomerkeeper ). Ohh man, that was a lot fun. In the end, I persisted almost everything, even made the VoP Monk competent. People can say what they want about the Incantatrix being "broken" but the rest of the party didn't seem to complain about the long lasting buffs. The DM didn't seem to mind either.

Edit: Two down, One left. Then our group can say that we played with all three.

Runestar
2010-01-06, 06:56 AM
Isn't the point of prestige classes to be more powerful than the base one? If the gm wanted a slight reward to their player they'd be called progression classes, or just give a free feat or bonus xp.

Not necessarily to the extent of invalidating an entire class past lv6. PRCs should allow the player to customize his character beyond what is currently possible, nothing more. Ideally, they would remain roughly as powerful as if you had gone pure base-class.

I think what spellcasting prcs could do would be to not give full spellcasting progression, and grant some nifty ability which cannot be replicated using existing feats. For example, look at the various psionic prcs in XPH. Classes like the thrallherd give cool features, but at 8/10 spellcasting advancement.

Narazil
2010-01-06, 07:14 AM
That's how I see PrC compared to staying with the base class.

I have played in a game before with 2 of the 3 "Unholy Trinity," It was me ( Incantatrix ) and a good buddy ( Dweomerkeeper ). Ohh man, that was a lot fun. In the end, I persisted almost everything, even made the VoP Monk competent. People can say what they want about the Incantatrix being "broken" but the rest of the party didn't seem to complain about the long lasting buffs. The DM didn't seem to mind either.

Edit: Two down, One left. Then our group can say that we played with all three.
It's not exactly the buffs which are game breaking. They can be - but they can also.. Not.. Be. :smallconfused:
There are far worse metamagic'd spells. Orb-spells spring to mind.


And in my opinion, a Prestige Class shouldn't be better, just specialized. It should help improve your character's crunch in coherency with his fluff. He's a spellslinging swordwielding badbehind? A Gish Prestige Class is going to work a lot better than Wizard 10/Fighter 10 - both from a crunch and fluff perspective.
If I wanted to build an undead-hating Cleric, I could go for Cleric 20, boosting my Turning - but come on, since when has Turning been fun?
I'd rather give up 2 caster levels and gain some nifty anti-Undead effects and spells from, say, Undead Hunter.

ken-do-nim
2010-01-06, 07:22 AM
Really? No one thinks Radiant Servant of Pelor is that bad? >.>

I'm with you there bud. I was in a party with one, and we took on an adventure full of undead and it was like let's all kick back and relax and watch the guy playing the Radiant Servant do everything.

Oh how I hate full spell-casting prestige classes not named archmage.

Narazil
2010-01-06, 07:31 AM
I'm with you there bud. I was in a party with one, and we took on an adventure full of undead and it was like let's all kick back and relax and watch the guy playing the Radiant Servant do everything.

Oh how I hate full spell-casting prestige classes not named archmage.
How is Archmage any better?

sofawall
2010-01-06, 07:32 AM
Isn't the point of prestige classes to be more powerful than the base one? If the gm wanted a slight reward to their player they'd be called progression classes, or just give a free feat or bonus xp.

No. What you give up (feat pre-reqs, lost class features) are supposed to be equal with what you get in the prestige class. However, since Wizards lose little, sorcerers lose even less and Clerics often lose nothing, there is very little reason to NOT PrC out.

ken-do-nim
2010-01-06, 07:49 AM
How is Archmage any better?

Real trade-offs. Losing spell slots hurts. Some of the entry requirements involve minimally useful feats.

Sinfire Titan
2010-01-06, 08:48 AM
Isn't the point of prestige classes to be more powerful than the base one? If the gm wanted a slight reward to their player they'd be called progression classes, or just give a free feat or bonus xp.

They are, but only in specific areas. Incanatrix is supposed to be marginally better (+1 Tier) for a Metamagic specialist than more levels in Wizard (the problem being that it is meant for a Wizard and is actually a +2 or better PrC). An example of a +1 PrC is the Eternal Blade in Tome of Battle; it's good enough to warrant play, but weak enough to not be an automatic option (mainly due to entry requirements and limited maneuver selection). An example of a +2 PrC that is OK would be something like the Soulbow.


This is using SonofZeal's PrC Tiers, BTW. Those not familiar with it usually won't understand.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-06, 12:11 PM
I'm with you there bud. I was in a party with one, and we took on an adventure full of undead and it was like let's all kick back and relax and watch the guy playing the Radiant Servant do everything.

Oh how I hate full spell-casting prestige classes not named archmage.RSop is speccialized in killing undead. Hios god hates undead, and he's been specially trained by his church to be exceptionally good at killing undead. You were facing undead, let him shine. He still can't Turn undead bosses or tanks, and none of those abilities matter against living opponents, so it's not unbalanced.

Kylarra
2010-01-06, 12:17 PM
Really? No one thinks Radiant Servant of Pelor is that bad? >.>RSoP is certainly very nice if you're intending to hate undead, but the major downside is it locks you into Pelor, whose domains aren't all that hot.

taltamir
2010-01-06, 01:45 PM
Actually, it would be very bad. Unless a single organisation offers the PrCs that the entire party wants, you're going to be wasting a lot of time on fetch quests for random teachers. Only one party member is likely to enter the PrC he wants at level 6, the others will have to wait for their turn to come around.

point, but that was WOTC suggestion not mine. You are supposed to join an organization that teaches the PrC and you are supposed to gain standing. its right there in the DMG.

You could let them take the levels while on the quest... It will certainly give the party stuff to do though; missions for their various organizations.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-06, 01:47 PM
That's how I see PrC compared to staying with the base class.

I have played in a game before with 2 of the 3 "Unholy Trinity," It was me ( Incantatrix ) and a good buddy ( Dweomerkeeper ). Ohh man, that was a lot fun. In the end, I persisted almost everything, even made the VoP Monk competent. People can say what they want about the Incantatrix being "broken" but the rest of the party didn't seem to complain about the long lasting buffs. The DM didn't seem to mind either.

Edit: Two down, One left. Then our group can say that we played with all three.

You remind me of the ideal party: Wizard/Incantatrix, Cleric/Dweomerkeeper, Druid/Planar Shepard, and Sorcerer/Shadowcraft Mage

Douglas
2010-01-06, 01:54 PM
You remind me of the ideal party: Wizard/Incantatrix, Cleric/Dweomerkeeper, Druid/Planar Shepard, and Sorcerer/Shadowcraft Mage
I don't know, I'm kinda partial to Wu Jen for the Incantatrix base. Body Outside Body for more Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect FTW!

See Team Solars in my sig for details.

Draz74
2010-01-06, 01:57 PM
And Beguiler seems like an ideal base for the Shadowcraft Mage ... less spell versatility than the Sorcerer, but skill points have value too. Especially in early levels.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-01-06, 02:26 PM
And Beguiler seems like an ideal base for the Shadowcraft Mage ... less spell versatility than the Sorcerer, but skill points have value too. Especially in early levels.

Sorcerer trumps Beguiler due to access to Miracle.

Draz74
2010-01-06, 02:35 PM
Sorcerer trumps Beguiler due to access to Miracle.

I thought the Killer Gnome trick(s) could get you access to Miracle either way ...

Arakune
2010-01-06, 03:12 PM
How to persist foresight with the incantatrix post errata?

sofawall
2010-01-06, 03:20 PM
How to persist foresight with the incantatrix post errata?

The errata didn't even touch the Incantatrix's buffing power.

Douglas
2010-01-06, 03:30 PM
How to persist foresight with the incantatrix post errata?
Errata only hit the Instant Metamagic ability. If you have the spellcraft for it, Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect still work just fine.

Arakune
2010-01-06, 03:34 PM
Thanks everyone.