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Rasman
2010-01-05, 01:58 AM
So, I want to hit things REALLY hard.

I've been looking at ways to pump up unarmed damage, as of late, and found some useful things, like "Greater Mighty Wallop" that increases your size catagory by 1 for every 4 casters levels up to a +5, or Colossal. So far that's been the best buff I've found and you can have it made permanant or get it in the form of something like a ring. Any other opinions on making Unarmed Damage super sick?

Xzeno
2010-01-05, 02:01 AM
Obviously, you want to raise your effective monk level, preferably with taking any monk levels. Getting str up is another good idea.

Str, monk level and size. That about covers it. Maybe improved natural weapon? Are you eligible for that?

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-05, 02:02 AM
Monk's Belt. Adds 5 to Monk level for damage.
Superior unarmed Strike. Adds 4 to Monk level for damage.
Unarmed Swordsage. Gets you Monk unarmed damage progression without needing to, you know, be a Monk.
Psychic Warrior. Gets you Expansion for 2 additional size categories.
Half-ogre gets you Large base size.
Imp Nat Attack boosts you by one more size.
Fist of the Forest does something good, but I honestly can never figure out what.
Warblade, Crusader, Duskblade, and Swordsage let you deal damage no matter what the weapon is.

The Glyphstone
2010-01-05, 02:10 AM
Monk's Belt. Adds 5 to Monk level for damage.
Superior unarmed Strike. Adds 4 to Monk level for damage.
.

Note that it's one or the other of these options - SAS does not stack with a monk belt.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-05, 02:12 AM
Note that it's one or the other of these options - SAS does not stack with a monk belt.According to some readings, yes, othr's no. Boh increase your 'effective monk level' and are untyped, so it's up to your DM. I would allow it, because, really, it's a power boost for Monks. Why not?

Rasman
2010-01-05, 02:29 AM
Monk's Belt. Adds 5 to Monk level for damage.
Superior unarmed Strike. Adds 4 to Monk level for damage.
Unarmed Swordsage. Gets you Monk unarmed damage progression without needing to, you know, be a Monk.
Psychic Warrior. Gets you Expansion for 2 additional size categories.
Half-ogre gets you Large base size.
Imp Nat Attack boosts you by one more size.
Fist of the Forest does something good, but I honestly can never figure out what.
Warblade, Crusader, Duskblade, and Swordsage let you deal damage no matter what the weapon is.

wish I could take Imp Nat Attack, but my Monk is pathfinder and they errataed that you can't take the feat, sucks for me, but there are ways around it...

I like Superior Unarmed Strike, not really sure why I haven't taken it already...guess I was having fun with some fluff feats and being a grapple whore while I can...

Fist of the Forest is good because it ups your damage by two steps, rather than levels, I've looked at it...a lot...but because our DM houseruled that if you start a Prc that you have to finish it, I've shyed away from it.

can I get Expansion without having to take Psychic Warrior levels?

Thurbane
2010-01-05, 02:29 AM
Person Man's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127732) guide has some excellent tips.

Rasman
2010-01-05, 03:13 AM
Person Man's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127732) guide has some excellent tips.

he's pretty much like god if his head were made of cheese, I've taken a LOT of ideas from his guides, only problem is that a LOT of it deals with Psionics, which my DM pretty much told me that if I wanted, I'd have to start with it at level 1, but at the time, it was too complicated for me to understand, with this being my first character, so I'm trying to find the simplest ways to pull this off.

Paul H
2010-01-05, 03:27 AM
Hi

You said Pathfinder?

4 levels Monk, one of Sorceror (Draconic Background), rest as Dragon Disciple.

Same BAB as Monk, D12 HP, 7/10 spell progression, extra spells, extra feat, breath wpn, +4 Str, +3 Nat Armour, bite attack etc. Cast Polymorph for size bonus to wpn & strength, cast Bulls Strength - you know the rest.........

Your claw & bite attacks count as Natural Weapons, so you can take Improved Nat Wpn so Large Claws c/w Imp Nat Attk do 2D6 base damage! :smallwink:

BTW - you rolling or taking point buy?

Cheers
Paul H
PS Looking at similar Sorceror/Paladin/Dragon Disciple build.

Keld Denar
2010-01-05, 03:28 AM
The easiest way to combine UAS damage (Monk) and size increases (PsyWar) is to take the feat Tashalatora from Secrets of Sarlona. It stacks your monk levels with any one psionic class you have (PsyWar) for the purposes of UAS damage, flurry progression, and AC bonus. Thats prefect for what you are looking for in a high damage unarmed striker.

Paul H
2010-01-05, 03:42 AM
Hi

Think he said PATHFINDER, so no psionics, splat books, etc (yet)

Cheers
Paul H

sofawall
2010-01-05, 03:49 AM
Hi

Think he said PATHFINDER, so no psionics, splat books, etc (yet)

Cheers
Paul H

Pathfinder is made to be compatible with the rest of 3.5 with only some small changes. Kinda the point.

Paul H
2010-01-05, 03:53 AM
Pathfinder is made to be compatible with the rest of 3.5 with only some small changes. Kinda the point.

Hi

Depends if his Pathfindr GM allows other non-PF stuff in. If so, anything's possible.

If he's playing 'official' campaign, like Pathfinder Society, then definitely NOT.

Just working out build for Monk/Sorc/Drag Disc mix. back in couple mins.....

Cheers
Paul H

Rasman
2010-01-05, 03:55 AM
Hi

You said Pathfinder?

4 levels Monk, one of Sorceror (Draconic Background), rest as Dragon Disciple.

Same BAB as Monk, D12 HP, 7/10 spell progression, extra spells, extra feat, breath wpn, +4 Str, +3 Nat Armour, bite attack etc. Cast Polymorph for size bonus to wpn & strength, cast Bulls Strength - you know the rest.........

Your claw & bite attacks count as Natural Weapons, so you can take Improved Nat Wpn so Large Claws c/w Imp Nat Attk do 2D6 base damage! :smallwink:

BTW - you rolling or taking point buy?

Cheers
Paul H
PS Looking at similar Sorceror/Paladin/Dragon Disciple build.

it was rolled, but the character is already created, I'm just look towards the future, tbh

I'm already level 7 at this point and, so long as I can convert it to Pathfinder, I can use ANY book I want pretty much, this is very much a "do what you want" unoptimized campaign

ONLY downside is that if I start a Prc, I have to finish it, so...I'm being uber picky at this point

Kelb_Panthera
2010-01-05, 06:43 AM
You can get expansion through the feat Hidden Talent in XPH, but you'll need to find a way to boost your ML and gather up some PP.

AirGuitarGod32
2010-01-05, 07:28 AM
This looks like a Job for the AirGuitarGod!

I have 3 PrCs that increase UaS Die/damage

1. Fist of the Forest (Goes without saying. Stated Above) [Complete Champion]
2. Initiate of Draconic Mysteries (in 10 levels, gain 2 die upgrades and a dragon wildshape-type ability) [Draconomicon]
3. Acolyte of the Fist (2 more die upgrades and serious boosts to UaS) [Dragon Magazine]

if this helps, here's my combo thought:

Unarmed Swordsage 7/IoDM 10/AotF 10/FotF3

wear a Monks Belt and/or take Superior Unarmed Strike and you are in buisness

sofawall
2010-01-05, 07:32 AM
This looks like a Job for the AirGuitarGod!

I have 3 PrCs that increase UaS Die/damage

1. Fist of the Forest (Goes without saying. Stated Above) [Complete Champion]
2. Initiate of Draconic Mysteries (in 10 levels, gain 2 die upgrades and a dragon wildshape-type ability) [Draconomicon]
3. Acolyte of the Fist (2 more die upgrades and serious boosts to UaS) [Dragon Magazine]

if this helps, here's my combo thought:

Unarmed Swordsage 7/IoDM 10/AotF 10/FotF3

wear a Monks Belt and/or take Superior Unarmed Strike and you are in buisness

You do know that almost nobody plays Epic, right?

AirGuitarGod32
2010-01-05, 07:36 AM
You do know that almost nobody plays Epic, right?

This is simply a full-fufilment example...

and I ran a warforged monk from lv1 and went this route. I'm not saying take it all, as I did, but simply dabble the one(s) that you like.

and just as a warning: You have to finish Acolyte of the Fist. This class has a "no dip" class feature.

sofawall
2010-01-05, 07:43 AM
This is simply a full-fufilment example...

and I ran a warforged monk from lv1 and went this route. I'm not saying take it all, as I did, but simply dabble the one(s) that you like.

and just as a warning: You have to finish Acolyte of the Fist. This class has a "no dip" class feature.

I advise you read the thread again.

Mongoose87
2010-01-05, 08:01 AM
If you're worried about having to finish, Fist of the Forest is fine - it's only 3 levels.

Person_Man
2010-01-05, 10:07 AM
he's pretty much like god if his head were made of cheese, I've taken a LOT of ideas from his guides, only problem is that a LOT of it deals with Psionics, which my DM pretty much told me that if I wanted, I'd have to start with it at level 1, but at the time, it was too complicated for me to understand, with this being my first character, so I'm trying to find the simplest ways to pull this off.

The thread that Thurbane linked to pretty much has every 3.5 option available to you. If you can't be a Psychic Warrior, you can get Expansion via Warmind (http://srd.realmspire.com/psionicWarMind.html) or Psionic Fist (http://srd.realmspire.com/psionicFist.html). If you don't want to use psionics, them simply ask a full caster to cast Polymorph or Beast Shape (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells---final/beast-shape-i) or something similar on you to make you as big as possible. (Pathfinder fiddled with the Polymorph subschool, but surprisingly didn't fix it).

If that's also not an option, then I suggest you give up on trying to deal a lot of damage (a perennial Monk weakness) and focus on your strengths - Stunning Fist, lots of attacks, and your mobility.

Stunning Fist (which was already improved in Pathfinder) can be buffed further with Pharaoh's Fist, Freezing the Lifeblood, and a few magic items that I can't recall right now. Also, anything that acts as a debuff improves Stunning Fist (by making the Save DC harder) so look into poison (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0), Spell Storing weapons, and Fear effects (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-911167), and be sure to talk to the casters in your party.

You have a lot of attacks. Do what you can to get more (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595). And then focus on effects that don't require damage to succeed - Daze effects, ability damage/penalties, and other status effects (like Stunning Fist).

Finally, you have a very high rate of movement and Acrobatics. Your goal in combat is to move past the meat shields and to take down the full casters. Carry an adamantine weapon to Sunder spell component bags and holy symbols. Take Mage Slayer and carry a reach weapon (even if you don't attack with it, it threatens, and you can can make AoO with it, thus making casting harder).

You don't need to deal damage to be useful.

Heliomance
2010-01-05, 01:06 PM
Out of interest, how does a monk's unarmed strike interact with any natural attacks you may have?

Keld Denar
2010-01-05, 01:12 PM
You make your monk attacks, then you make all of your natural attacks as 2ndary natural attacks.

If you had a BAB of +11 and no Str mod and no Multiattack, 2 claws, 2 tenticles, and a bite, your attack routine would be:

UAS +11/+6/+1
Claw +6/+6
Tenticle +6/+6
Bite +6

Heliomance
2010-01-05, 01:32 PM
So you can't apply the damage boosts to claw attacks, for instance? Shame.

Keld Denar
2010-01-05, 01:35 PM
Which damage boosts? INA must be taken for a specific natual weapon or set of natural weapons. You could take INA (Bite) or INA (UAS), but you couldn't just take INA and hope it applies to all of your natual weapons.

2ndary natural weapons always only gain 1/2 str bonus to them. They would still get full +dex to damage if they had Shadow Blade, and would still apply Sneak Attack to all attacks (assuming they qualify).

What exactly do you mean?

Heliomance
2010-01-05, 02:29 PM
I mean the unarmed strike damage bonuses. I was hoping they might power up your natural attacks.

Also, by the rules, Superior Unarmed Strike only stacks with your damage if you're a monk, not an unarmed swordsage. Is there a way around this, or do you have to dip monk?

Keld Denar
2010-01-05, 02:36 PM
Unarmed Swordsage gives you the Unarmed Strike class feature of the monk. With respect to UAS, you are considered in every way, shape, and form, to be a monk. Thus, it would work.

Darrin
2010-01-05, 10:36 PM
I mean the unarmed strike damage bonuses. I was hoping they might power up your natural attacks.

Also, by the rules, Superior Unarmed Strike only stacks with your damage if you're a monk, not an unarmed swordsage. Is there a way around this, or do you have to dip monk?

Superior Unarmed Strike either increases your unarmed strike damage by character level if you have no monk levels, or if you are a monk it increases your unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher.

If you're using the Unarmed Swordsage, this feat can have two different interpretations... strictly RAW, the feat checks to see if you have monk levels, returns FALSE, and gives you an unarmed strike damage based on your character level. This can be useful if you know you're going to be multiclassing out of Swordsage and you still want to progress your unarmed damage. If you prefer RAI or RAMS and would rather SUS.IsMonk(Swordsage) return = TRUE, then yeah, it increases your unarmed damage as four levels higher.

There are some workarounds. SUS has a few quirks to it... first, it doesn't discriminate by size, so even small, tiny, or whatever-sized non-monk characters get the same unarmed damage. Unfortunately, this might skew both ways... a strict RAW interpretation might conclude that a non-monk using Enlarge Person or Expansion gets the same SUS damage regardless of their adjusted size. Second, SUS does not make your unarmed strike a natural weapon for the purposes of INA unless you take levels in monk.

However, if you are a non-monk and take levels in a class or PrC that grants the equivalent of a monk's unarmed strike, you can get unarmed damage that scales up by character level but also counts as a natural attack for INA, Greater Magic Fang, Kensai, etc. Battledancer (Dragon Compendium), Fist of the Forest (CompChamp), Shou Disciple (Unapproachable East), and as previously mentioned the Unarmed Swordsage can be used to get an equivalent of a monk's unarmed strike. Check with your DM, however, because some of the RAW implications for Fist of the Forest, Shou Disciple, etc., can get pretty obtuse.

The best way to buff of unarmed damage is to get ahold of a monk's unarmed strike ability without taking levels of monk, and stack as many size increases as possible, such as:

Fist of the Forest = +2 damage steps in 3 class levels
Augmented Expansion = +2 size increases
Improved Natural Attack = +1 size increase
Totem Avatar soulmeld + Open Lesser Chakra (shoulders) = +1 size increase

It might also be possible to get another size increase by adding the Mighty Arms graft (Faiths of Eberron) + Battlefist Warforged component (ECS). Unfortunately, the wording on the battlefist is almost impenetrably vague on how it might work with or as a monk's unarmed strike.

Rasman
2010-01-06, 12:15 AM
The thread that Thurbane linked to pretty much has every 3.5 option available to you. If you can't be a Psychic Warrior, you can get Expansion via Warmind (http://srd.realmspire.com/psionicWarMind.html) or Psionic Fist (http://srd.realmspire.com/psionicFist.html). If you don't want to use psionics, them simply ask a full caster to cast Polymorph or Beast Shape (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells---final/beast-shape-i) or something similar on you to make you as big as possible. (Pathfinder fiddled with the Polymorph subschool, but surprisingly didn't fix it).

If that's also not an option, then I suggest you give up on trying to deal a lot of damage (a perennial Monk weakness) and focus on your strengths - Stunning Fist, lots of attacks, and your mobility.

Stunning Fist (which was already improved in Pathfinder) can be buffed further with Pharaoh's Fist, Freezing the Lifeblood, and a few magic items that I can't recall right now. Also, anything that acts as a debuff improves Stunning Fist (by making the Save DC harder) so look into poison (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0), Spell Storing weapons, and Fear effects (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-911167), and be sure to talk to the casters in your party.

You have a lot of attacks. Do what you can to get more (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595). And then focus on effects that don't require damage to succeed - Daze effects, ability damage/penalties, and other status effects (like Stunning Fist).

Finally, you have a very high rate of movement and Acrobatics. Your goal in combat is to move past the meat shields and to take down the full casters. Carry an adamantine weapon to Sunder spell component bags and holy symbols. Take Mage Slayer and carry a reach weapon (even if you don't attack with it, it threatens, and you can can make AoO with it, thus making casting harder).

You don't need to deal damage to be useful.

I've looked at poisons a lot, since eventually I become immune to them...unfortunatly your like to it and "fear effects" didn't take me anywhere...I've often considered using Drow Sleep Poison and just covering either my body or my fists with it. Talk about hitting someone so hard that it knocks them out, but other than that, I'm kinda ignorant about poisons and the like.

I've actually already taken Pharaoh's Fist and Pain Touch to help my Stunning Fist. I'm working on getting some Ki Straps to help my SF DC saves as well. A +2 is always a good thing. Other than that, I'm not really sure what direction I want to go in other than definitely carrying around a long spear, which I'm proficiant with, thank god, I just can't flurry with it, sad is me, unless I can convince my DM to let me get it enchanted to be Martially Attuned, aka, treated as a monk weapon. But that's out of a splat book, so he's probably gonna say no, but I can dream.

Temotei
2010-01-06, 12:31 AM
If homebrew is allowed, that's an option (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=The_Radiant_Monk).

Shameless advertisement while fulfilling a purpose! :smallbiggrin:

Rasman
2010-01-06, 12:43 AM
If homebrew is allowed, that's an option (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=The_Radiant_Monk).

Shameless advertisement while fulfilling a purpose! :smallbiggrin:

no homebrew I'm afraid, has to be out of a D20 book