[NwN2] I'm so frustrated!

[Burley]

Argh! I was so excited for this game and I've had nothing but doo-doo times. First, I bought the game from Amazon, and I also bought the MoB and something-something Zehir expansions. Then, when I get the game, I realize that I bought NwN2 Gold, which comes with MoB. Blargh!
Now, let it be known that the reason I got the game is because I love the Warlock class, but none of my DMs will let me play one. This was supposed to be my warlock fix. And, while the game is fun, I get killed like every twenty-eight seconds.

The worst thing, however, is the "auto-save." I have gotten Meeska in my party six times, gone to the graveyard/bandit camp, been killed by the boss, and had to go back to when I just got the Mr. Ironfist. That's like... an hour or so of game-play without the auto-save ever actually auto-saving. I don't even think about saving, either, because I'm used to my PS3 saving all the time.

I'm so sad about this game.

[Comet]

My honest opinion?
Read a plot synopsis on the original campaign and hop straight into Mask of the Betrayer if you feel comfortable enough with the game mechanics.
Mask of the Betrayer has a much better story and if you know what you're doing you won't be doing nearly as much dying, since your will be playing Epic levels at that point.

[Kish]

You'll still have to start using the quick-save if you don't want to be sent some distance back whenever you die, though.

[Cheesegear]

Now, let it be known that the reason I got the game is because I love the Warlock class, but none of my DMs will let me play one. This was supposed to be my warlock fix. And, while the game is fun, I get killed like every twenty-eight seconds.

The Warlock doesn't get good until later levels since Eldritch Blast kind of sucks for damage output. If you can survive being a Warlock for the early part of the game, you should be alright. They get better.


The worst thing, however, is the "auto-save." [...] I don't even think about saving, either, because I'm used to my PS3 saving all the time.

First rule of RPGs, save, save, save, then save again. Don't rely on Auto-Save. Find your Quick Save button. And use it.

[Burley]

First rule of RPGs, save, save, save, then save again. Don't rely on Auto-Save. Find your Quick Save button. And use it.

I know, I know. But, this is the first non-console game I've ever played. Console games have either auto-save or some sort of glowing green/blue area to remind you to save. I'm out of my element. :smallfrown:

I'll get better, I know I will.

However, your comment about Warlocks getting better confuses me. In PnP, Warlocks get progressively less useful at higher levels, rather than the PC version getting better, as you say.
Does this mean the Monk is a viable character option?

[JeminiZero]

The old Divine Warlock (http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Divine_Warlock_-_Wlk(29),Clr(1)) writeup might interest you.



First rule of RPGs, save, save, save, then save again. Don't rely on Auto-Save. Find your Quick Save button. And use it.

Actually, the first rule is: Save early, save often, use different slots. People tend to neglect that last phrase but it can save your hiney when some bizarre unexpected bug or save corruption occurs.



However, your comment about Warlocks getting better confuses me. In PnP, Warlocks get progressively less useful at higher levels, rather than the PC version getting better, as you say.


Warlocks only get comparatively better at Epic levels. Their blast damage dice increases very rapidly as they can buy improved eldritch blast with their epic feats, on top of normal level progression AND eldritch mastery (+50% to all blast damage).

Other arcane casters don't get as much in comparison. Epic spells in NWN2 are a pale broken shadow of their world altering PnP counterpart (because I would really like to have mustered a chain summoned Solar army before attacking the enemy stronghold).

And besides the brokenly powerful Bigby's hand, most non-epic spells lack the battlefield control abilities of batman wizard, forcing them to rely on damage spells that suffer from level cap. So by level 30 a warlock not only outdamages other arcane casters, he can do so every round.



Does this mean the Monk is a viable character option?


Not a pure monk. It is usually mixed in with other classes to take advantage of Flurry of blows and gaining extra offhand attacks from perfect 2wf. They also try to synergize bonus to AC while not wearing armor from either Duelist or Invisiblade. See the Kama no Kaze (http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Kaze_no_Kama) for what I mean.

[Cheesegear]

Does this mean the Monk is a viable character option?

It's the same deal with the Original Neverwinter Nights;

It's not PnP. It's a CRPG. The characters with the easiest time of the entire game are Lawful Good Beaters. Since magic items and gear litter the ground like grass...And you can even make your own later on when you have enough ranks in the skills.

Fighters and Monks can literally walk through the game.

[Johnny Blade]

Warlocks also get a relative boost from resting being a bit more of an issue in MotB.

[Kiero]

Cheat. Bump some of your scores up, give yourself a few extra Feats, maybe a magic item or two. Better than replaying sections of the game again and again.

[Burley]

Cheat. Bump some of your scores up, give yourself a few extra Feats, maybe a magic item or two. Better than replaying sections of the game again and again.

This is the exact reason I don't like PC games. It's way too easy to cheat. If you want to get better at a game, you have to grind, grind, grind until you're better. RPGs, especially.
I'm thinkin' about takin' ol' Beardfist back to the swamp ruins and level grind a bit.
(Props to whoever made the M&M Beardfist Fistbeard. It's the greatest Dwarf name I've ever heard and I steal from you with great reverence.)

[Mando Knight]

Actually, the first rule is: Save early, save often, use different slots.

This game even puts it in one of the loading screen hints...

[Flickerdart]

Ok, hint? Don't go to the graveyard just yet. You can come back after Highcliff and it will be much easier to beat it then. That place is the most frustrating part in the early game. At least do the bandit camp first so you can snatch another level, but I'd recommend Highcliff as well.

[deuxhero]

Hint:Skip the OC, it gets even worse as you go along. MoTB is fairly awesome and has only minimal connection to the OC (You meet two of the OC characters that can be a bit confusing if you haven't met them, but their roles are minor and could be taken out without consequence.

[Rutskarn]

Hint: Neverwinter Nights 2 is a polished turd.

You haven't even gotten to the worst parts yet. This game alternates between mildly entertaining and wildly unfair combats, with the worst ones being a house full of rogues (that, whenever you re-load, instantly teleport into flanking position while invisible) and the stupendously impossible final boss. The story is occasionally interesting, but more often vibrantly stupid and insulting. Traveling's a hassle, party management's a bore. There are nice aspects of the game, and I don't remember it entirely unfondly, but I wouldn't actually recommend it to anyone.

[Dixieboy]

Hint:Skip the OC, it gets even worse as you go along. MoTB is fairly awesome and has only minimal connection to the OC (You meet two of the OC characters that can be a bit confusing if you haven't met them, but their roles are minor and could be taken out without consequence.

Well, three.

He wants to play a warlock after all. :smallwink:

[J.Gellert]

It's a fun game. But the expansion is way better.

Though I remember the OC as rather easy- fighters walk through it, and god forbid if you have a wizard, you can rest anywhere, anytime. Not sure about a warlock...

There is one problem with NWN (1+2) in general; when you attack an enemy at range, then that enemy and all his allies go for the archer/ranged attacker. Warlocks might suffer from this. Make sure your frontliner (the dwarf) is strong enough to keep enemies on him, and use Eldritch Blast invocations that let you kill/disable enemies before they are on you.

Also, use your potions, I tend to hoard them in CRPGs. I remember finishing Baldur's Gate 1 with entire inventories filled with potions. Only after Diablo 2 (and more recently, the Witcher) did I learn to actually drink them. Specifically for NWN2, barkskin/AC potions are great early on until you stack up those bonuses from magical items.

[Cheesegear]

Okay, I'm pretty sure everyone is agreed that Mask of the Betrayer rocks like all get out.

But, I haven't actually heard people's responses to Storm of Zehir. I think my views are slightly warped because I don't terribly mind the OC.

[warty goblin]

Hint: Neverwinter Nights 2 is a polished turd.

You haven't even gotten to the worst parts yet. This game alternates between mildly entertaining and wildly unfair combats, with the worst ones being a house full of rogues (that, whenever you re-load, instantly teleport into flanking position while invisible) and the stupendously impossible final boss. The story is occasionally interesting, but more often vibrantly stupid and insulting. Traveling's a hassle, party management's a bore. There are nice aspects of the game, and I don't remember it entirely unfondly, but I wouldn't actually recommend it to anyone.

Indeed. I highly suggest not playing NWN 2 any more than absolutely required by masked men holding your loved ones at gunpoint. For your computerized tabletop RPG needs I recommend Drakensang: The Dark Eye. It's not based on D&D, but I actually think the Dark Eye system works better for a cRPG than D&D does. It doles out rewards more gradually and evenly, and the character building is, at least to me, much more intuitive. Also the load times aren't as long as in NWN, there aren't as many of them, the game looks damn good, and although the story's nothing special it's at least both enthusiastic and cheerful.

And in a really rare turn of events at least probably halfway through the game, I've barely had to kill any humans. I've had plenty of battles, but most of them have been against various unpleasant forms of wildlife or undead, making it one of the few RPGs where I don't play a mass murderer. I kinda like that.

[deuxhero]

Well, three.

He wants to play a warlock after all. :smallwink:

Wait, Jerro and Bishop, who am I forgetting?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Does this mean the Monk is a viable character option?


It's the same deal with the Original Neverwinter Nights;

NWN 1 monks were horribly powerful.

Spellcasters are limited in NWN by the fact that they can't fly and there are plenty of encounters (not that you can't just rest after every fight).

[Cheesegear]

Spellcasters are limited in NWN by the fact that they can't fly and there are plenty of encounters (not that you can't just rest after every fight).

For me, Spellcasters are limited because I hate book-keeping so very, very much. Martial characters are just so much...'Easier' to use and less clunky. It also massively helps that the game seems to favour martial characters. So, there is that.

[Zincorium]

Funny, I don't recall having a bad time while playing the original campaign...

Then again, I was mentally comparing it to the single player game of neverwinter nights 1. And the temple of elemental evil video game.


Mask of the Betrayer was more fun than the original (once you figure out the spirit eating business), but I have no serious complaints about the OC. Mask of the Zehir changed a LOT about the game, and in some ways made it much, much harder.

[warty goblin]

For me, Spellcasters are limited because I hate book-keeping so very, very much. Martial characters are just so much...'Easier' to use and less clunky. It also massively helps that the game seems to favour martial characters. So, there is that.

Ah yes, the interface. Dear lord, that was a case of Death by a Thousand Buttons if ever there was one.

[Dixieboy]

Wait, Jerro and Bishop, who am I forgetting?

Hellfire warlocks get the ability to summon a devil.
I shall say no more.

[Rutskarn]

Also, to those saying the expansion back was better: Yeah, like I'm going to buy the expansion pack after the insultingly bad ending. I'm not paying money to get a decent resolution just because they borked the previous one.

[SparkMandriller]

fallout3.jpg

[Eldariel]

It's the same deal with the Original Neverwinter Nights;

It's not PnP. It's a CRPG. The characters with the easiest time of the entire game are Lawful Good Beaters. Since magic items and gear litter the ground like grass...And you can even make your own later on when you have enough ranks in the skills.

Fighters and Monks can literally walk through the game.

That's because the game is really easy though. I've soloed NWN2 with every class. I'm pretty sure I could do a 1-character solo with every class, resting only once per arena (man, the rest-system really sucks). Early on, Sleep is still the best spell ever and all casters but Clerics have it.

It's much easier to handle some of the tough fights as a caster type; particularly certain big opponents who squash you if you try to melee them.


Later on, the normal PnP battlefield control stuff coupled with Dragonslayers (that is, spells you use against guys will all high saves + immunities) like Harm, Isaac's Missile Storm and company ensure that no opponent truly challenges you. Btw, Druid is pretty nuts in NWN2; only thing is, you need that 1-level Monk dip to get good AC. And dip Shadowdancer since Hide in Plain Sight is broken too.

Means you need to start Lawful Neutral, though you can easily climb (or cheat) into any alignment you desire. Of course, Cleric is even nutsier if only since Wildshape is horribly buggy (Stormlord Cleric is probably the strongest single character in the game). But Druids really AC stack nicely, and have very fine offense, and animal companion is as good as ever (though the game, curiously, doesn't contain Bardings or other animal equipment).

The player-content has proven that basically all PnP axioms apply to NWN2, even without Fly, Contingency, Time Stop and company. Power-wise, that is. Cleric is still the best melee, and Druid is a decent second. And you relaly, really want a Wizard.


But as I said, none of that is relevant in the Official Campaign since it's very easy. The bandit camp is frankly one of the hardest parts, if only since you need to be doing the crafting yourself if you want Wands of Cure Light Wounds.

If you find some fights tough tho, try more buff spells. I can honestly tell you that it becomes trivially easy with a few.

[Tengu_temp]

NWN 1 monks were horribly powerful.


As a dip class. Beyond level (at most) 6 you were better off taking levels in cleric or druid.

[deuxhero]

Hellfire warlocks get the ability to summon a devil.
I shall say no more.

I was talking about MoTB, Hellfire Warlock is SoZ.

[Dixieboy]

I have never installed one without the other, so I wouldn't rightly know.

[WitchSlayer]

Yeah. I honestly really like Mount and Blade's autosave system. Where it autosaves every time you change screens.

[Kiero]

This is the exact reason I don't like PC games. It's way too easy to cheat. If you want to get better at a game, you have to grind, grind, grind until you're better. RPGs, especially.
I'm thinkin' about takin' ol' Beardfist back to the swamp ruins and level grind a bit.

I have a life, I certainly don't have the time to waste grinding any game.


Mask of the Betrayer was more fun than the original (once you figure out the spirit eating business), but I have no serious complaints about the OC. Mask of the Zehir changed a LOT about the game, and in some ways made it much, much harder.

I found MotB often tedious, epic levels with all that magic washing around gets boring.

[Burley]

I have a life, I certainly don't have the time to waste grinding any game.


Well, I'm going to pretend that wasn't brassy and insulting. Further, whether or not you have a "life" is not the issue. There is a right and wrong way to play a game. Changing the way the game was meant to be, in my opinion, is the wrong way.

[Morty]

I didn't find NwN2 to be all that bad. Not a very good game maybe, but not an excercise in frustration. MoTB does have a much better story, this is obvious right from the start, but it get really hard soon and an epic-level party of four casters gets extremely tedious.

[Trixie]

Well, I'm going to pretend that wasn't brassy and insulting. Further, whether or not you have a "life" is not the issue. There is a right and wrong way to play a game. Changing the way the game was meant to be, in my opinion, is the wrong way.

Really? Then why console games are "meant to be" 5x times easier than the same game on PC? Lower difficulty, auto-targeting, 3x less enemies, dumber AI, more XPs - somehow, it's always dumbed down, and if anything, you should praise him for making the game more console-like :smallamused:

Plus, cheats 7 out of 10 times can be used to make game more fun. For example - Liked the big battle on console? Watch it again. Liked it on PC? Use cheats to spawn twice as many enemies, double your fun. Console games are boring, easy, slow, ugly and stiff, compared to PC ones, TYVM.

[Foryn Gilnith]

There is a right and wrong way to play a game.

O...K...

There is a right way to play a game. It involves having fun. There is a wrong way to play a game. It involves not having fun. Those are my thoughts on the matter. The designers are great for making the game, but they're not the Supreme Entertainment Authority, especially in games already designed to be modded.

[Tengu_temp]

I didn't find NwN2 to be all that bad. Not a very good game maybe, but not an excercise in frustration. MoTB does have a much better story, this is obvious right from the start, but it get really hard soon and an epic-level party of four casters gets extremely tedious.

NWN2 is not a bad game, but it is a step back in comparison to NWN1 - it improves the graphics* and updates the rules from semi-3.0 to semi-3.5, but its interface is much more stiff, the code much buggier and less optimized, and two of the things that were the strongest points of NWN1 - multiplayer and making your own modules and content - are clunky and annoying to handle in NWN2.

* - with the drawback that most of the characters look incredibly ugly. I'd take NWN1's block people over that, to be honest.


Console games are boring, easy, slow, ugly and stiff, compared to PC ones, TYVM.

Wow. I don't know are you being sarcastic or not.

[Asheram]

The biggest thing I'm annoyed with in that game is the ore colletion, or that you can't go back to certain areas you've been before?

"Whut? *looks up a walkthrough* Oh right, the orc caverns... WHAT?! That was chapter One or Two, this is chapter Three! I didn't even remotely Believe I'd have such a task in front of me then!"

[dsmiles]

There is a right and wrong way to play a game.

There is?

Why, then, are "cheat codes" built into nearly every game? If they're built in, is it changing the way the game was meant to be played, since the codes are part of the game?

[Avilan the Grey]

O...K...

There is a right way to play a game. It involves having fun. There is a wrong way to play a game. It involves not having fun.

+10.000

This is the only thing that matters.

[Dixieboy]

O...K...

There is a right way to play a game. It involves having fun. There is a wrong way to play a game.
Cheating in multiplayer?
You're having fun, everyone else is not.
Verdict?


There is?

Why, then, are "cheat codes" built into nearly every game? If they're built in, is it changing the way the game was meant to be played, since the codes are part of the game?

I call shenanigans, newer games usually doesn't have cheatcodes.
Which is sad.

[Morty]

And two of the things that were the strongest points of NWN1 - multiplayer and making your own modules and content - are clunky and annoying to handle in NWN2.

Oh yeah, that. I've loved tinkering with the toolset in NWN1 but in NWN2 it's just clunky and unfun. Some of the changes are simply effects of NWN2's advanced graphics, but others are just unnecessary complications.

[Avilan the Grey]

I call shenanigans, newer games usually doesn't have cheatcodes.
Which is sad.

Admittedly I don't play that many games, but all three games I bought last year has them:

Sims 3
Fallout 3
Dragon Age

[Dark Faun]

Mask of the Zehir changed a LOT about the game, and in some ways made it much, much harder.
This is true. I admit I'm a horrible player who's forced to play on very easy to be able to do anything, but in the OC, I needed the god mode cheat only for the final battle, while in MotB I needed it for every boss fight except against Okku, and even against mooks.

[Johnny Blade]

****ing gnolls...


I actually liked the original campaign better than MotB. Simply because the OC was nothing more than a guilty pleasure, while MotB set out to be oh so much more and, for me, really failed by having a plot that tried to be mysterious but really was even more foreseeable than KotOR, and hilariously disjointed on top of it - hey, let's go there...oh, another part of the mystery solved, how convenient. And then there was that cast which managed to couple a total freakshow with personalities that weren't exactly more complex than the original campaign's, there were just more words.


I also hated how they treated the original companions.

Oh, your girlfriend? Kinda dead. That redhead you blew up half the world with? Yeah, boulder vs. cranium, guess who won? Funny how it goes, eh?
Now, let's move this plot along, there are new things to see. It's not like you were supposed to care, after all.

[Dark Faun]

That redhead you blew up half the world with? Yeah, boulder vs. cranium, guess who won?
Haha, yes. Such a shame. Though I never laughed more than when a witch babbles about a forest fire and you ask something along the lines of "wouldn't you happen to have seen an angry redhead, by any chance?"

[Kiero]

Well, I'm going to pretend that wasn't brassy and insulting. Further, whether or not you have a "life" is not the issue. There is a right and wrong way to play a game. Changing the way the game was meant to be, in my opinion, is the wrong way.

My entertainment time is far too short and precious to be wasting (and it is wasting) it doing repetitive nonsense and re-playing the same stretches of game over and again. If the game were "meant" to be otherwise, there would be no cheat codes.

As people said, there's no "right" way to play any game, the only thing that matters is whether or not you're enjoying yourself doing it.

More to the point, I gave you a very viable solution to the problem you are having. I didn't say play on god mode and make all your stats 50, I said tweak your character some so they are better and more survivable.


I call shenanigans, newer games usually doesn't have cheatcodes.

Course they do, cheat codes exist because designers have to test their games without having to play them "fair". Not least because if you've been working on and playing something for years, the last thing you want to be doing is having to jump through all the hoops necessary for the thousandth time just to check something is functioning correctly.

[Dixieboy]

Course they do, cheat codes exist because designers have to test their games without having to play them "fair". Not least because if you've been working on and playing something for years, the last thing you want to be doing is having to jump through all the hoops necessary for the thousandth time just to check something is functioning correctly.

Here's a couple of the last games I played.

Dragonage: Has a console
The saboteur: Nothing
Modern warfare 2: Nothing
Torchlight: Has 'em
Borderlands: Nothing
East india company: Nothing
Majesty 2: Apparently has 'em, I can't get them to work. (And because I suck I'm now stuck at a mission where you have to kill a 30.000+ HP ogre)
Arkham asylum: Nothing
Wolfenstein: Nothing.
Call of Juarez: Nothing.
Empire total war: Nothing.

[Foryn Gilnith]

As far as how they handle, I don't prefer NWN1 or NWN2. I was hopping between them for a few months when I got them, and each has features the other doesn't. Both interfaces have their benefits. They grow on you.

[Eldariel]

The biggest thing I'm annoyed with in that game is the ore colletion, or that you can't go back to certain areas you've been before?

"Whut? *looks up a walkthrough* Oh right, the orc caverns... WHAT?! That was chapter One or Two, this is chapter Three! I didn't even remotely Believe I'd have such a task in front of me then!"

This isn't a problem if you're an oldschool adventure game player. If you've played...say Monkey Island-games, or Grim Fandango or X Quests or similars, you know that if you can click on something, CLICK IT. Yeah, those things never made sense, but you'll find out later why you clicked things that were clickable. 'cause things are never clickable without a reason.

But yah, such crap is annoying. Especially when it has as big an impact on things as in this game. If you haven't played said old adventuring games, I'll bet you'll be really annoyed you missed out on a bunch of mithril/adamantine veins in the early game.

[Drakyn]

Since this seems to be a general NWN2 thread now, I'd like to beg a question. I got the gold edition (basic + MotB) and against all my better judgement am planning on not skipping the initial campaign; full playthrough, soup to nuts. My main problem is picking a character - I don't want to create someone that's majorly redundant due to overlap with an NPC, I don't want to be absolutely useless, I'd like to be able to talk my way out of/into stuff. I'm not asking for a 15-page documentary layout, or even min/max advice, just any personal reccommendations you may have.

[Zincorium]

My most successful character to date was a paladin/sorceror/dragon disciple. Good saves, heavy armor, some spellcasting for pre-combat buffing, and a rediculous strength score. As the social skills are really the only ones you absolutely need the main character to have, the lack of skillpoints wasn't a huge deal.

[Eldariel]

Like I said before, anything will do. The OC is so easy that any class can pretty much solo it (at least outside few specific instances; luckily you have a bagful of party members to ensure you never run into trouble), so mechanical competence is hardly a criterion you need to pay attention to.

Wizard, Cleric and Druid will all cover ground none of the NPCs can; you'll get an NPC Wizard quite late and he's got a...sharp limitation with regards to his magicks, and the NPC Cleric comes even later. And while you get an NPC Druid (yeah, you get an NPC of each class, basically) comes really soon, only PC Druid can dip Monk for the AC bonus.

Particularly Cleric or Druid with Craft Wand can be great early as you'll get Wands of Cure Light Wounds early which make life MUCH easier if you don't plan on using the ability to pretty much rest whenever the damn you want. Of course, if you do...well, you won't need my advice. There are also some archetypes the NPCs can't cover; the NPC Cleric isn't a very good warrior/archer Cleric so if you want one, better be one yourself.


Monk and Barbarian are the only classes not present as NPCs, I think, so making either allows covering a slot you won't get otherwise. You CAN get an NPC Monk, but you'll never get an NPC Barbarian, so there. Of course, none of the PrCs in the game are available as NPCs in the OC, so that's something to consider; if you want an Arcane Scholar of Candlekeeper, a Stormlord, a Frenzied Berserker, an Assassin or similars, you'll need to become one yourself.

And yeah, do note that ONLY the main character can do talking and a lot of talking is skill checks (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate) so those skills are very handy indeed. The main character also gains some bonuses from some other checks (a few Lores, some Spot/Listen, Search, Craft, Appraise, etc. Though Appraise isn't that necessary since as long as you're mindful, you'll be farting money soon enough). Though most of those you can pump to necessary degree in lategame without any ranks with simple Greater Heroism/+6 Stat/Inspire Competence/etc.

[Drakyn]

Thanks for the input. Based on this and slight randomness I've been leaning towards monk just for curiosity value (a less minmaxy version of the kama build linked early intrigued me, just because it seemed to wrap so tightly around the idea of a monk using weapons). The only sticky point was the alignment dependance, but I've heard good choices in the game are closely wrapped to law anyways. Plus, diplomacy is a class skill :p

[Johnny Blade]

Don't be a Rogue. Sneak Attacking is all too often completely useless, and you get an NPC Rogue very soon.

[Kiero]

Don't be a Rogue. Sneak Attacking is all too often completely useless, and you get an NPC Rogue very soon.

Far too many enemies immune to Sneak Attack, Critical Hits and with Damage Resistance in the game for my liking. Another reason to cheat, I don't know what idiot thought that would be a good way to balance encounters. Unfortunately some of the fan-mods take the same line.

[Dark Faun]

...so that's why I sucked so much... I was playing a rogue.

[Eldariel]

Far too many enemies immune to Sneak Attack, Critical Hits and with Damage Resistance in the game for my liking. Another reason to cheat, I don't know what idiot thought that would be a good way to balance encounters. Unfortunately some of the fan-mods take the same line.

That's really a D&D 3.5 issue; so many types are naturally immune and then there's a slew of easily available Spell- and Item-based immunities making everyone of any relevance immune to crits and sneaks, and DR/SOMETHING is everywhere. The game actually pulls back on the Sneak Attack-issue, since opponents don't use Fortifications-armor, to my knowledge, and e.g. the Dragon and the Devils seem to be fully suspectible even though it'd be easily within their means to acquire immunity. Still, it can do nothing about Constructs, Undead, Plants, Elementals & Oozes (none in the game tho) being naturally immune.

DR is...well, they use standard D&D monsters and just about all of them above level ~10 have DR. Of course, if you know what pierces what DR, it isn't that big a problem. Too bad the game never divulges such information so unless you've played a lot of PnP, you won't know to bring Holy Axiomatic Cold Iron weapons to deal with Devils, and Adamantines for Golems, for example (and such weapons aren't even available unless you Craft them yourself). Amusingly enough, Neeshka can do decently with just weapon enhancements in the lategame; since she's a natural dual wielder, getting her two +10-level weapons really kicks things off even if she isn't sneaking.


EDIT: I just realized it might not be clear so I'll mention it: When I call the game easy, I mean easy for someone who knows the rules set and the game engine. If you make good use of the spells (particularly buffs) and casters you've got available, and know about what kinds of abilities what creatures have, the game is very easy.

If, on the other hand, you're walking in the dark, have some weird multiclass monstrocity for a character and aren't making much use of your preparing casters because of the burden of filling out the spell lists, and don't know what kinds of immunities and weaknesses you're dealing with at any given time, some parts of game can be really difficult.

So yeah, I can completely understand why someone would be having issues with the game; just, where I'm coming from, it's incredibly easy especially with the rest system allowing resting anywhere. If...someone is having some game-stopping difficulties, feel free to ask advice and I'm sure the boards can help. Because everything is eminently solvable as long as you've got access to your NPCs and one rest.

[Morty]

The whole endgame was pretty much a big "screw you" to anyone playing a rogue.

[Kiero]

I just find buffing and indeed spellcasting more generally a tedious bore. Having to mess about arranging a load of stuff before each and every fight isn't my idea of fun. That's why I don't play casters, and aside from altering their spellbooks, don't tend to bother much with puppeting the NPC casters.

[Douglas]

I just find buffing and indeed spellcasting more generally a tedious bore. Having to mess about arranging a load of stuff before each and every fight isn't my idea of fun.
If you do it with only what comes with the game, then yes it's a terribly boring and tedious procedure. There's a fan-made addon that turns it into just pressing the "cast buffs" button, though. You have to cast them all manually once to set it up so it know which buffs to cast, but after that you just activate one item and the script goes through the whole list of buffs for you. If you do it out of combat, it even skips the casting time.

I used this with a Persistent Spell cleric once. It was amusing at high levels hitting one key after resting and watching the cast effects of over a dozen buffs go off simultaneously.

[Drakyn]

I think I've heard of that somewhere. Link for the lazy?

[Closet_Skeleton]

As a dip class. Beyond level (at most) 6 you were better off taking levels in cleric or druid.

They were still powerful as a non dip class since their spell resistance and good saves somehow ended up actually meaning something. The common-ness of pro-monk items and the lack of decent feats for fighters certainly helped. CoDzilla might have been better but monks weren't bad.


* - with the drawback that most of the characters look incredibly ugly. I'd take NWN1's block people over that, to be honest.

The art direction is also lacking. NWN 1 wasn't really better, but its poor graphics made things less obvious. More realistic graphics combined with cartoony looking buildings and weapons doesn't really work as a combination.

[Kiero]

The art direction is also lacking. NWN 1 wasn't really better, but its poor graphics made things less obvious. More realistic graphics combined with cartoony looking buildings and weapons doesn't really work as a combination.

What is it with weapons that look like they come out of a LEGO or Duplo set? Take the default shortsword model, for example.

[Eldariel]

They were still powerful as a non dip class since their spell resistance and good saves somehow ended up actually meaning something. The common-ness of pro-monk items and the lack of decent feats for fighters certainly helped. CoDzilla might have been better but monks weren't bad.

The single huge thing for them was the Boots. You can get extra +5 Dodge-bonus to AC from those. That and the Gloves enabling "enhancement" of UA strikes (though since they took Glove-spot, it sorta sucked).


And yeah, agreed on weapons. The worst is the Mithril-weapons and armor you make yourself; they practically look like they're molds

[Closet_Skeleton]

That and the Gloves enabling "enhancement" of UA strikes (though since they took Glove-spot, it sorta sucked).

Outside of the rediculous gloves you could make in the toolset (which could do awesome stuff and enhance unarmed attacks), the only gloves you could get in the game were gauntlets of ogre power (whoo! +2 strength!) or a random assorment of +2 to +6 bonuses to certain skills. Having to wear gloves that granted damage bonuses to be competative was hardly a sacrifice.


What is it with weapons that look like they come out of a LEGO or Duplo set? Take the default shortsword model, for example.

That's slander. I haven't bought pseudo-medieval lego sets in years, but the only weapons in them that approached NWN style rediculousness were the halberd/poleaxe things.

[Tengu_temp]

Outside of the rediculous gloves you could make in the toolset (which could do awesome stuff and enhance unarmed attacks), the only gloves you could get in the game were gauntlets of ogre power (whoo! +2 strength!) or a random assorment of +2 to +6 bonuses to certain skills. Having to wear gloves that granted damage bonuses to be competative was hardly a sacrifice.


There were also bracers of dexterity and bracers of armor (and in NWN the AC bonus from enhancement stacks with the base AC of your armor, no matter what the source - bracers, Mage Armor, you name it). And most monks dual-wielded kamas anyway.


The single huge thing for them was the Boots. You can get extra +5 Dodge-bonus to AC from those.

With decent UMD everyone could wear those.

[Flickerdart]

With decent UMD everyone could wear those.
Sadly, in SoZ, the UMD requirements skyrocket.

[JediSoth]

My big beef with NWN2 was the horrible load times. That, coupled with those fetch-and-retrieve quests where you had to go back and forth between two or three zones within the span of 5 minutes of game time or so meant I spent more time staring at the loading screen than actually playing during certain parts of the game. In fact, I played and completed The Simpsons Game on my Nintendo DS almost entirely during the NWN2 loading screens.

The long load times totally turn me off to the game. I know it's partly my old computer's fault, but I exceed the recommended requirements for it in every category, IIRC.

[warty goblin]

My big beef with NWN2 was the horrible load times. That, coupled with those fetch-and-retrieve quests where you had to go back and forth between two or three zones within the span of 5 minutes of game time or so meant I spent more time staring at the loading screen than actually playing during certain parts of the game. In fact, I played and completed The Simpsons Game on my Nintendo DS almost entirely during the NWN2 loading screens.

The long load times totally turn me off to the game. I know it's partly my old computer's fault, but I exceed the recommended requirements for it in every category, IIRC.

Oh gods, the load times. Why on earth somebody thought every quest had to involve a minimum of two buildings, and a zone change in between them I don't know, but they should be whipped with mouse cords.

And it probably isn't your computer's fault. The Aurora Engine is generally well understood to be a festering turd. About the only game I've played with it that wasn't borderline technically incompetant is the Witcher, and that's after CD Projekt rewrote about a third of it, and then did such a major revision of that they released the entire game. Tellingly they're simply writing their own engine for the Witcher 2.

[Dixieboy]

The un-patched version of the witcher was worse when it came to loading times.

Every quest had you going to another area, and every area took about 10 minutes to load.

[warty goblin]

The un-patched version of the witcher was worse when it came to loading times.

Every quest had you going to another area, and every area took about 10 minutes to load.

They did fix it though, along with a whole bunch of other stuff. I retried NWN 2 a couple of months ago, downloaded all the patches and everything. Damn thing still runs like cement going through a garlic press, takes forever to load, controls like a unicycle on glare ice, and looks like crap. If you compare the two merely from a technical point of view with latest patches, I'd put good money on the Witcher coming out ahead on most machines.

[Tengu_temp]

Sadly, in SoZ, the UMD requirements skyrocket.

I thought the discussion about monks referred to NWN1.

[Breltar]

Honestly I liked NWN1 for its simplicity and NWN2 for its enhanced outdoor area engine.

I thought MotB was pretty terrible, since you jump right to epic levels and everything seems to be how many buttons you can click and gear you have. To me that is boring, probably because I like low magic worlds and Faerun is not.

Storm of Zehir I thought was the best of the bunch, as the rest limitations and the more balanced battles made it interesting, as did the side 'mini game' with the trade routes. You had much more control over what was going on, but it did make the story suffer a bit since the storyline doesn't have control of who is in your party.

I've built with both editors, NWN1 with its puzzle piece boxes (always reminded me of the pipe game or tetris) and NWN2 with its free form placements but higher requirements on a machine.

[Kiero]

I thought MotB was pretty terrible, since you jump right to epic levels and everything seems to be how many buttons you can click and gear you have. To me that is boring, probably because I like low magic worlds and Faerun is not.

I have to say, I've been thoroughly sold by the deliberately-low-magic mods some people have put together.

Last of the Danaan was particularly impressive in that it even did away with looting the corpses, most things died without leaving anything at all. And there were no routine magic items better than +1, nor indeed even non-magical weapons or items that didn't fit the vague Colonial aesthetic. Looking forward to the author's next foray.

[Eldariel]

I thought MotB was pretty terrible, since you jump right to epic levels and everything seems to be how many buttons you can click and gear you have. To me that is boring, probably because I like low magic worlds and Faerun is not.

Now, while this probably doesn't change your likes one bit, I feel compelled to point out that the Pause-option in the game means your speed is really a non-issue.

[warty goblin]

Now, while this probably doesn't change your likes one bit, I feel compelled to point out that the Pause-option in the game means your speed is really a non-issue.

At least my feelings on pause anytime combat tend to be that if I can't control it in real time, either the interface is crap, the developers need to start trimming fat until I can handle things in real time, or they need to man up and make it turn based.

This is particularly true when they give me a grand total of four people to control. I can manage numbers an order of magnitude or two higher without trouble if the interface and game are well designed.

NWN 2 rubs salt in the wound by forcing me to pause all the time just to keep my special ed drop out party members from getting murdered by a troll while they chase down a goblin that has apparently insulted their mother.

[Foryn Gilnith]

At least my feelings on pause anytime combat tend to be that if I can't control it in real time, either the interface is crap, the developers need to start trimming fat until I can handle things in real time, or they need to man up and make it turn based.

Indeed. There is a recent trend towards taking things that should be turn-based, making them real-time to pander to today's shorter attention spans (or something equally contrived), and doing a half-assed job of it. It troubles me, since this is exactly the sort of thing video games need to improve on (narrative has already had thousands of years of work)

[Breltar]

I have to say, I've been thoroughly sold by the deliberately-low-magic mods some people have put together.

Last of the Danaan was particularly impressive in that it even did away with looting the corpses, most things died without leaving anything at all. And there were no routine magic items better than +1, nor indeed even non-magical weapons or items that didn't fit the vague Colonial aesthetic. Looking forward to the author's next foray.


I have made and played on persistent worlds (i.e. online multiplayer sandboxes) that are exactly that. More emphasis is put on roleplaying and fleshing out your own character than it is about what + level item you have.

[Tyrant]

I have noticed it mentioned a few times so I was kind of curious. What was so difficult about the final battle in the OC?

It has been a while since I played through it so my memory may be fuzzy. I know it took me a couple of tries but that was because I didn't quite realise what I needed to do. Once I did, I recall it going pretty smoothly. I wasn't exactly super optimised either. My first run through I was a human Sor10/RDD10 and I was mostly using melee and the second run through that I played through to the end I was playing a Drow with some combination of Fighter and Blackguard (don't remember how much of each). I honestly had more difficulty with the fight just before the final battle where you have to use the truename scrolls because I kept getting caught in a tight spot and generally unable to do much.

I honestly haven't finished MotB. I absolutely hate the spirit meter. I'll probably end up turning off via cheats when I try it again.

I did like SoZ though. I had to do a lot of grinding at the end to be epic (with a Yuan-Ti Pureblood no less) by the end but I kind of expected that. I'd love to see more NWN games with an overland map in that style (sandbox is what I hear it called) but with larger, more unique dungeons and more side quests. Of course the current legal "issues" between Hasbro and Atari mean we might be waiting for 5th edition before we see any new D&D video games.

[Tengu_temp]

I have to say, I've been thoroughly sold by the deliberately-low-magic mods some people have put together.

Last of the Danaan was particularly impressive in that it even did away with looting the corpses, most things died without leaving anything at all. And there were no routine magic items better than +1, nor indeed even non-magical weapons or items that didn't fit the vague Colonial aesthetic. Looking forward to the author's next foray.

They can be good as single-player mods, but persistent worlds that use these rules completely screw the game balance, or what little of it is there. Non-casters need these high-level magical items to remain competetive.

[Eldariel]

At least my feelings on pause anytime combat tend to be that if I can't control it in real time, either the interface is crap, the developers need to start trimming fat until I can handle things in real time, or they need to man up and make it turn based.

This is particularly true when they give me a grand total of four people to control. I can manage numbers an order of magnitude or two higher without trouble if the interface and game are well designed.

NWN 2 rubs salt in the wound by forcing me to pause all the time just to keep my special ed drop out party members from getting murdered by a troll while they chase down a goblin that has apparently insulted their mother.

Personally, I turn party AI off the first thing in the game since it sucks. Then there's room for some...tactics in combat. I can't very well have the idiots running around to their deaths...oh, who am I kidding, I can do that just fine since the dying in the game is IMPOSSIBLE... But yeah, I find party AI (well, AI in general) to be one of the worst parts in the game and as such get rid of it immediately.

But yeah, I already learned in BG to humble myself and start pausing in combat. Even though I'm a Starcraft player, and as such quite fast of my fingers and quite good at coordinating large wholes on the fly, a quartet of epic casters is just too much for that. I think it's more a function of how complex D&D is than anything else. But I really don't mind the pausing maself. I always pause at the beginning of the fight and then as necessary to lay down the law.

[warty goblin]

Personally, I turn party AI off the first thing in the game since it sucks. Then there's room for some...tactics in combat. I can't very well have the idiots running around to their deaths...oh, who am I kidding, I can do that just fine since the dying in the game is IMPOSSIBLE... But yeah, I find party AI (well, AI in general) to be one of the worst parts in the game and as such get rid of it immediately.

I find it less than optimal that a part of the game is so broken the best way to play is to turn it off- particularly when NWN 2 came out about the same time as some games with really good AI.


But yeah, I already learned in BG to humble myself and start pausing in combat. Even though I'm a Starcraft player, and as such quite fast of my fingers and quite good at coordinating large wholes on the fly, a quartet of epic casters is just too much for that. I think it's more a function of how complex D&D is than anything else. But I really don't mind the pausing maself. I always pause at the beginning of the fight and then as necessary to lay down the law.

The question I have to ask is, does the extra stuff pausing allows them to put into the game make up for the increased difficulty in simply managing the game and the massive loss of tension? Generally I've found the answer to be no, because most of the stuff could be trimmed down without significantly decreasing what little tactical depth most RPGs have. If the game designers want that stuff, pure turn based affords greater precision and a closer simulacrum of the tabletop experience. If they don't, they should grow a backbone and edit the rules until it actually works in realtime.

[deuxhero]

^ Exactly.

RTWP is a horrible system with NONE of the benifits of turnbased or the benifits of real time.

[Eldariel]

^ Exactly.

RTWP is a horrible system with NONE of the benifits of turnbased or the benifits of real time.

I'm of the polar opposite school: I think it's the perfect marriage of flexibility and fluency. You can let the game flow when you don't need to do a ****ton of controlling and when every move counts, you can pause as often as you want. Perfect for single-player at any rate.

Simplifying the rules would lose the whole point of making a D&D-based CRPG IMHO, and either make the game too cumbersome (Turn-based, even when there's just small fry in the game or such) or too simple (if everything is reduced to ~10 different spells and such per character).

Meh, Jagged Alliance 2 did the Real-Time Turn-Based much, much better, but I don't think Infinity Engine-games are bad either. This here engine though, is a whole other PoS entirely. And I think the concept behind Real-Time Turn-Base is sound.


On the other hand, I agree on the AI point completely. The game's AI really doesn't pay any attention to the scenario or surroundings and doesn't have any kinds of group dynamics or team tactics whatsoever. Meh.

I'm just glad one CAN disable them. Imagine how much worse it'd be if you had to put up with it? Honestly, I'm willing to forgive just about any mistake in a game as long as there's the option of not dealing with it, from X-Com: Apocalypse's economy (just cheat) to NWN2's AI.

[Johnny Blade]

Yeah, I agree. Saying that active pause games or those that switch between real time and turn-based are bad is a pretty silly generalization if you ask me.

And especially when you're dealing with small squads/parties that require some micro-managing, it has a lot of merits.
In fact, if Jagged Alliance 3 ever happens, I hope they take notes from the series' attempted spiritual successors made by Apeiron (Brigade E5 and 7.62), because that's one of the things they did right.
Also, if I'd go into turn-based mode for every bunch of goblins that Baldur's Gate throws my way to keep me awake, I'd go berserk after half an hour.


Of course, when you have to pause just to make up for the AI's deficiencies, well...

[warty goblin]

Yeah, I agree. Saying that active pause games or those that switch between real time and turn-based are bad is a pretty silly generalization if you ask me.

It's not the worst idea in gaming, but I can't say it does much for me. It's only truly really obnoxious when there's clearly turns ticking away under the surface, but the damn game insists on pretending it's still realtime even when the predominant combat activity is standing around looking mildly threatening.




And especially when you're dealing with small squads/parties that require some micro-managing, it has a lot of merits.
In fact, if Jagged Alliance 3 ever happens, I hope they take notes from the series' attempted spiritual successors made by Apeiron (Brigade E5 and 7.62), because that's one of the things they did right.
Is 7.62-High Calibre any good? I saw they had it on sale at GamersGate the other day for pretty reasonable rates, but the customer reviews mentioned a rather alarming number of bugs.


Also, if I'd go into turn-based mode for every bunch of goblins that Baldur's Gate throws my way to keep me awake, I'd go berserk after half an hour. Perhaps the better solution would be to not throw quite as many filler fights at the player. I know my favorite turn based games are those that consistantly brutalize me. Elven Legacy in particular is pretty much twenty hours of unrelentingly painful abuse, as you fight your way through hordes of enemy units on a very short turn limit, and try to solve that most eternal of problems: How do I cross this river without everybody dying horrible deaths?

Also it was without a doubt my favorite strategy game of the last year.




Of course, when you have to pause just to make up for the AI's deficiencies, well...
I so wish that some fantasy style game sometime would make an AI that actually tried to keep itself alive.

[Johnny Blade]

Is 7.62-High Calibre any good? I saw they had it on sale at GamersGate the other day for pretty reasonable rates, but the customer reviews mentioned a rather alarming number of bugs.
I had a few problems with bugs early on, but there are no really fatal ones left now. As in, it never crashed the last time I played it, but there were things like quests staying in the log after I solved them or glitches with shop interfaces.
There are also some clipping errors. Sometimes. Oddly enough, these only seem to happen at special times at the day or depending on the lunar phase or something.

However, it's not a really good game, it's just one that has been designed as an active pause game from the ground up and does that part well. Actions actually take time to perform, not action points or a percentage of a turn - this alone makes sniping much better than it has ever been in Jagged Alliance 2, for example. And you can pause and control how fast time passes. The only problem is a little part of the auto-pause feature, namely that the game pauses when an enemy enters or leaves sight. A lot of fun in the jungle, let me tell you.
It has no tutorial or other help, which would be needed for some parts, a clichéd cast, and an equally bad story, although you at least get some choices about which sides to pick here. The pathfinding isn't very good, and neither is the camera. And man, the game's ugly. Also, perhaps most importantly, the AI has a few issues, ranging from sometimes suicidal grenade use to weird decisions about when to fire single shots and when to go for auto-fire.
It's still playable, and it kinda grew on me, but it's really not that good.


Perhaps the better solution would be to not throw quite as many filler fights at the player. I know my favorite turn based games are those that consistantly brutalize me. Elven Legacy in particular is pretty much twenty hours of unrelentingly painful abuse, as you fight your way through hordes of enemy units on a very short turn limit, and try to solve that most eternal of problems: How do I cross this river without everybody dying horrible deaths?

Also it was without a doubt my favorite strategy game of the last year.
Yeah, well, Elven Legacy's a strategy game. In an RPG, I'd actually miss the filler fights, especially since just making every battle one against overwhelming odds would hurt my sense of achievement a bit and, depending on how frequently these fights would occur, either distract me from the story or make traveling fairly dull.

[Kiero]

I have made and played on persistent worlds (i.e. online multiplayer sandboxes) that are exactly that. More emphasis is put on roleplaying and fleshing out your own character than it is about what + level item you have.

PWs have never really interested me, largely because online multiplayer doesn't.


They can be good as single-player mods, but persistent worlds that use these rules completely screw the game balance, or what little of it is there. Non-casters need these high-level magical items to remain competetive.

I only play single player, so it works perfectly fine for me.

[Douglas]

I honestly haven't finished MotB. I absolutely hate the spirit meter. I'll probably end up turning off via cheats when I try it again.
If you handle it right, the spirit meter is no problem at all. It is, in fact, possible to gain more than you lose by resting and suppressing repeatedly. Suppress fills it up more if there are spirits nearby. Okku counts. Elementals count. Have Okku, Kaelyn, and Gann in your party, and have Kaelyn and Gann cast Summon Monster VII (I think) to summon elementals. Use Suppress. This will fill up the spirit meter more than resting drains it once your spirit hunger is at minimum, and using Suppress reduces spirit hunger so you will be at minimum pretty quickly. Using this, I was able to pretty much ignore the spirit meter for the entire game.

[Thane of Fife]

I thought the discussion about monks referred to NWN1.

UMD was a rogue and maybe bard -only skill in NWN 1.

[Tengu_temp]

Rogue, bard and several prestige classes, yes. It's also one of the skills where taking crossclass ranks is worthwhile, like spellcraft or tumble.

[Tyrant]

If you handle it right, the spirit meter is no problem at all. It is, in fact, possible to gain more than you lose by resting and suppressing repeatedly. Suppress fills it up more if there are spirits nearby. Okku counts. Elementals count. Have Okku, Kaelyn, and Gann in your party, and have Kaelyn and Gann cast Summon Monster VII (I think) to summon elementals. Use Suppress. This will fill up the spirit meter more than resting drains it once your spirit hunger is at minimum, and using Suppress reduces spirit hunger so you will be at minimum pretty quickly. Using this, I was able to pretty much ignore the spirit meter for the entire game.
Yeah that sounds about like what I remember doing the last time I tried playing it. I seemed to be making progress doing that. Then SoZ came out and I started playing it off and on instead of MotB. Then the computer I was playing them on died on me and I haven't replaced it with one that can play the game yet. I do plan on trying to finish it and hopefully give the mods a real shot this time. Unfortunately, I might not be able to play Mysteries of Westgate due to the lawsuit between Atari and Hasbro. The last I had heard, they needed to input more activation codes (or something like that) to the download site and that is likely on hold due to the lawsuit.

[Thane of Fife]

Rogue, bard and several prestige classes, yes. It's also one of the skills where taking crossclass ranks is worthwhile, like spellcraft or tumble.

In 3.0 (and NWN 1), UMD couldn't be taken cross-class. And the skill requirement could rapidly get very high (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Use_magic_device).

[Kiero]

Unfortunately, I might not be able to play Mysteries of Westgate due to the lawsuit between Atari and Hasbro. The last I had heard, they needed to input more activation codes (or something like that) to the download site and that is likely on hold due to the lawsuit.

Doubt you'd be missing much anyway. I've heard nothing but bad about MoW.

[deuxhero]

Meh, Jagged Alliance 2 did the Real-Time Turn-Based much, much bette

JA2 was RTWP?

Just about every TB game (except TBS, where you are always in combat) has real time outside of the menus (I think JA1 is the exception)

[Eldariel]

JA2 was RTWP?

Just about every TB game (except TBS, where you are always in combat) has real time outside of the menus (I think JA1 is the exception)

You could real-time the fights if you wanted to. It offered the full TB option too; both were available. Much like Fallout Tactics, really.

[deuxhero]

I've done three play throughs and never heard of such an option in JA2 before!

[chiasaur11]

You could real-time the fights if you wanted to. It offered the full TB option too; both were available. Much like Fallout Tactics, really.

Or X-Com Apocalypse?

[Tyrant]

Doubt you'd be missing much anyway. I've heard nothing but bad about MoW.
Really? I can't recall hearing anything negative about it. The main place I bother checking out as far as NWN is the Bioware boards (because for whatever reason, the NWN 2 board is also there) and I had heard mostly good things. All the negative I remember was the year everyone had to wait where the game was done and Atari (with possible Hasbro interference) was just screwing around trying to get a "good" DRM in place. That was the main complaint I heard.

[Eldariel]

I've done three play throughs and never heard of such an option in JA2 before!

I may be mixing it with either/both of the former games; I don't remember too accurately anymore with all the years it's been since I actively played the game... Reminds me, I need to start a new campaign with the mods.

[warty goblin]

You could real-time the fights if you wanted to. It offered the full TB option too; both were available. Much like Fallout Tactics, really.

Man, I never knew Fallout Tactics had a turn based mode until you said that. After trying it out quick, it actually makes the game reasonably playable. The interface is still aggressively bad*, but at least I don't have to wrestle with it while under fire anymore. Turns out to be rather fun in turn based mode though, I'll probably play through a bit of it next time I'm in a mood for turn based tactical stuff.

*Why exactly it puts all the skills in a submenu baffles me. OK, so some of them don't get used all that often, but sneak comes in handy quite frequently. The AP display is also apparently configured to make is as hard as possible to know how many points I have left, and the lack of a grid is seriously annoying. Yes I get they wanted to make it look as much like the first game as possible, but Fallout 1's interface also sucked.

[Tengu_temp]

In 3.0 (and NWN 1), UMD couldn't be taken cross-class. And the skill requirement could rapidly get very high (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Use_magic_device).

*Facepalm* You're right, how could I forget that? In any case, these boots didn't give monks such high advantage - a monk could use boots that give +5 AC, and everyone could use boots that give +3 AC and +3 constitution. It grew to +10 and +6/+6 at epic levels if I recall correctly.

[Chaelos]

Sadly, my favorite aspect of NWN2's main campaign was the little minigame they had of managing the Crossroad Keep. The rest of the campaign didn't interest me so much, but I loved the idea of organizing/deploying an army. If the campaign had revolved around that, I'd have probably found it more intriguing.

That said, I loved MotB. I didn't like what happened to the companions from the first game at all, understand, but between a Red Wizard and a Bear God, I was content with the new ones we were given.

I don't recall either campaign being very difficult. I had a trivially easy time of MotB with a Bard/Paladin/Red Dragon Disciple/Fighter, and a Wizard/Arcane Scholar blew right through the original campaign. I did notice some difficulty in MotB with a full caster, at least in the beginning, because you don't get a proper fighter until

Okku joins your party. Until then, it's just you and other casters.

I have noticed that, even on my hotrod computer, this game's graphics get clunky from time to time. And controlling the Camera can, at times, be harder than fighting the stupid bad guys anyway.

How was Storm of Zehir?

[Drakyn]

This is a rather delayed reply, but I just finished the OC and desperately need to complain about some things that're well-known to absolutely everyone already.
Good holy christ, I knew how it ended, vaguely, and I knew it pissed almost everyone off, but the sheer MAGNITUDE of it! Half-assed ending, return of the fantastic slideshow of terrible images that are TOTALLY as good as cutscenes that was introduced to us so dearly with Lord Nasher, and a narrator who I still cannot believe could actually have been recorded by anyone with ears. He alone sank the entire thing beyond recall - chrissakes, a ten year old with THROAT CANCER would've produced a more appropriate voice! I wanted to reach through the screen and yank his testicles just to create a tone other than bland mcoatmealporridgevanillatepidwater!
What's really surprising is that despite knowing all this was going to happen, I feel so damned furious. It really is worse in person >_<

[Flickerdart]

SoZ is more like traditional D&D: you run around the map and encounters happen as encounters. A bunch of skills affect your overworld map movement, so it's a very good idea to have a Ranger. The trader thing is pretty neat, too. It could get very frustrating at points, as some fights are ridiculously difficult, but proper tactics actually work a lot better than they would in the other campaigns.

[Drakyn]

Another useless bump for no better reason than to get stuff out of my system. I just beat mask of the betrayer!

That game was incredible in every single way that its predecessor was deficit. The length was far more appropriate (it felt a bit short, but I can't think of a spot where you could've crammed in more game without it being, well, crammed in), the scenery was so much better I'm amazed it was the same engine, the enemies were interesting and neat, the setting was fantastic, the music was better, your companions were some of the most kick-ass neat people I've ever had the privelage to order to beat the stuffing out of a gnoll, and you got to almost come within an inch of calling the Forgotten Realms gods on their bull**** before being derailed for no good reason.

Wait.

Okay, so the last one is my one complaint. At the end of the game, during your conversation with Kelemvor, my copy of the game revealed that it was suffering from some minor but really annoying bugs. To whit, there were some obvious conversation options missing, which I shall list:

#1
Kelemvor: "I tried removing the Wall and all the mortals were like "BYE NOW" and that totally violated the covenant between men and gods. The wall must stand for the gods to exist."
Missing Option: "Remind me why we want or need you guys again? Almost exactly as many of you are card-carrying horrible bastards as are saints, every single one of you tends to cause massive collateral damage with your bickering with each other, and you just said you all ultimately depend on terrible, terrible, terrible suffering and deliberate cruelty. I fail to see how removing the whole pantheon would make things worse, unless thousands of mortal souls are too lazy to collaborate and build a big soul-hut on Mount Celestia to shack up in."

#2
Kelemvor: "I tried removing the Wall and all the mortals were like "BYE NOW" etc etc etc blah blah LOOKIT ME IMMA WEARIN' A MASK!"
Missing option: "Why didn't this happen in the thousands of years before Myrkul built it for no other reason than he was a colossal prick?"

#3
Kelemvor: "No, you can't take more than your own soul from the Wall. Nobody can beat up a god on his own turf, not even you...yet. Find out how and get back to me later."
Missing Option: *Kick Kelemvor in the Fruit of Good and Evil.*

[Douglas]

You can blame WotC for that one. As I understand it, Obsidian was planning to actually let you take down the Wall entirely, but someone at WotC got wind of it when they were almost done and said they didn't have permission to make that major a change to FR canon cosmology. So, they had to do a rush job of changing the ending to unilaterally forbid a proper full victory.

[Drakyn]

You can blame WotC for that one. As I understand it, Obsidian was planning to actually let you take down the Wall entirely, but someone at WotC got wind of it when they were almost done and said they didn't have permission to make that major a change to FR canon cosmology. So, they had to do a rush job of changing the ending to unilaterally forbid a proper full victory.

Dagnabbit, 4th edition - where they let the whole thing VANISH INTO THE ETHER WITHOUT COMMENT - was a year away!

AAAAAAAAAARGH!

EDIT: I just realized that all of my last three posts in here are both totally unrelated to the original topic and perfectly related to its title.

EDIT EDIT: I thought of this mod that should be made no less than seven hundred times in my playthrough.

Mask of the Betrayer, Soul Calibur-Style.
Changes:
-Your character looks like Nightmare.

-All dialogue choices that grant alignment shifts are prefaced with "prick," "goody-two-shoes," "beep boop robot," and "loony."

-All actual player dialogue is changed to the following: "SOOOOOOUUUULLLLSSS!"
-Length of said dialogue is increased or decreased based on length of original dialogue in word count. Punctuation will be changed to match original dialogue.


EDIT EDIT EDIT: Do you have any more details on the exact nature of the ending? Do we fight Kelemvor as a bonus boss and then rip the wall up, convince him he's wrong - how were we supposed to get the proper ending?